Did AVALANCHE stop using materia or not???

[ForceStealer]

Uh...I almost hate to butt in here, but I have a question. I thought the team didn't HAVE any materia, I thought Cloud had it all and that Loz stole it. The Shera took it's good old time getting to Cloud and Kadaj so I had always figured they had taken that time to go recover any materia the SHM had left behind. Vincent knew where their base was, after all.

Is that unreasonable?

[quote author=The Notorious M.O.G. link=topic=242.msg5599#msg5599 date=1231031682]That said, like I said before, this is the only example where magical-esque fighting techniques in a fictional world I've personally seen, that don't grow in relation to physical prowess alongside the cast. In my personal, humble opinion, that's pretty boring.
[/quote]

Remember though, that's what was unique about the materia system. Your characters don't learn skills, the materia does.

 

[Makoeyes987]

How do I give the impression the Compilation can do no wrong when in the DC section I ranted and called out SE's stupidity regarding how useless DC Lost Episode is and called it a subpar cellphone game based on a rushed, subpar shooting game?

Picking and choosing what I post, much? I've more than accepted the weaknesses of the Compilation, but I don't let it blind me to what it did get right. I still enjoy it. You feel it every corner of it is wrong, I dont hold such a pessimistic view of it. Just a difference of opinion.

And oui, the hypotheticals in this arugment are getting old.

If Nomura would've written that then this wouldn't be an issue period, but he didn't so that's a moot point. And really, if you hate the way they move and fight in AC, then I think you'd probably really hate it if they used haste, float, etc while fighting because they'd essentially be fighting in the style of DBZ except in CGI. They'd have no reason for their feet to hit the ground.

The possibilities are endless but I'm just looking at the possibility that made it to production and how it fits with everything else, which it does.

 

[Max Payne]

There's nothing hypothetical about the fact that INTENTIONALLY risking your neck in a fight without using every resource you have is just arrogant and irresponsible.

I agree Force, that's what I had thought at first too. Materia also increased your character physical stats too.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Remember though, that's what was unique about the materia system. Your characters don't learn skills, the materia does.

Well, sort of. Considering that we see people like Genesis (assuming he used Materia, if you believe he didn't, then well, skip this) do crazy shit with it. Nomura could easily just say 'The output of Materia is just dependent on the person using it and in FF7 it was just a gameplay mechanic'.

How do I give the impression the Compilation can do no wrong when in the DC section I ranted and called out SE's stupidity regarding how useless DC Lost Episode is and called it a subpar cellphone game based on a rushed, subpar shooting game?

Picking and choosing what I post, much? I've more than accepted the weaknesses of the Compilation, but I don't let it blind me to what it did get right. I still enjoy it. You feel it every corner of it is wrong, I dont hold such a pessimistic view of it. Just a difference of opinion.

Well, you do give that impression. I'm not saying that's you feel, but you've definitely given that impression, that I remember people mentioning back on the ACF days. Hell, Masamune just said it now.

Given that most of the debates I've seen you have is defending something of the Compilation (have I ever seen you actually attacking something in the Compilation/Squaresoft against someone defending it? ), well, helps that impression. But like I said, it's an impression.

And no, sigh, I don't feel as if every corner of the Compilation is wrong, I'm a harsh critic. Sure, it comes down to a difference of opinion, but in my opinion, SE and the Compilation better shape up or ship out. Other francises or even individual entries are passing it up.

If Nomura would've written that then this wouldn't be an issue period, but he didn't so that's a moot point. And really, if you hate the way they move and fight in AC, then I think you'd probably really hate it if they used haste, float, etc while fighting because they'd essentially be fighting in the style of DBZ except in CGI. They'd have no reason for their feet to hit the ground.

Considering the amount of video games, anime, and such that have comparable powers like Haste and Fire and such...not...really.

 

[Max Payne]

If they used materia ala Tifa in Dead Fantasy II I would have shit my pants in excitement.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yes.

 

[Max Payne]

Honestly, that quote is a poor excuse, for what seems like the fact that it would have been a shitload more work in the animation department to add materia into the battles.

Otherwise we would have gotten details like that in the actual film instead of books, that's just poor direction.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm going to have to double post because the zerg rush of replies is just getting too much for even a geek of my caliber to handle

That makes no sense. It's pointless as in, why have it if you don't use it?

They brought it in case they would need it. To be prepared. But they didn't...so it wasn't used.

When you bring an umbrella with you while you go out because you think it'll rain but it doesn't...does that mean you bringing the umbrella is pointless? No. You just were being prepared.

They did not handle it that well is the point, and they almost bit it several times, no they did not have it in case they needed it, because they did not have it on them during the fight.

No, they really didn't. Two times Barret and Red XIII came close is not several times. It's twice, and that's not that much given its a fight against a summon. How many times do you think its acceptable to come close to danger in a fight in FFVII before its stupid? Seriously, that's just so subjective.

And I'm saying you're nitpicking when you say they didn't arrive at the same time when they roughly did. They didn't land simultaneously but they all arrived at Edge together.

Showing up within a certain time period does not equal being prepared for a fight. You can come in a group and still be unprepared.

They were prepared because:

A.) They coordinated their entrance to Edge to save the people from the Shadow Creepers.

B.) They brought materia just in case they went up against a monster that required it but because it was the opponent they DID face, they chose not to.

C.) The movie does not show any moment in the film where the heroes suffered or loss because they did not have materia.

Sorry, but when did Barret get off the ship, or even give the implication that he did?

So what did he do? Drive? He came with the group and the majority of the group (i.e. everyone but Vincent and the people who were already in Edge) came aboard the Sierra? I can't see him just walking or getting there before the Airship all on his own. It makes no sense.

Because he WASN'T there. You're supposed to be prepared for whatever that can happen in a battle of such a magnitude.

Cloud *was* there. They were't expecting Cloud to just not show up. He told Vincent he was heading back to Edge and they all knew he'd be there to fight too. Why would they think Cloud would just ditch and leave them to mop up the mess in Edge?

They had no idea they could handle Bahamut and the Silver Haired Men. They just made the assumption they could, they didn't just KNOW they could win, they're not that stupid. Only fools assume they can beat an enemy they no nothing about.

No one goes into a fight and wins thinking they can automatically win, but a person can also gauge what would be best before hand if they see what their opponent is. You don't think they saw Bahamut descend from the sky when their materia was used from the airship? Since Bahamut Tremor is their materia, they would definitely know its weaknesses and strengths and fight accordingly.

The fact they had as much trouble as they did without Cloud's help, and the fact they did not bring every resource you have in a life or death confrontation.

That can attributed to the fact they were fighting a man short. Cloud was a bit late due to having to get Denzel to safety and make it back. That has nothing to do with materia.

That obviously doesn't even factor into the situation, the point is you don't purposefully limit yourself in a battle where your life is on the line.

As I posted in my reply to M.O.G. they didn't limit themselves. You don't think materia has pros and cons like any other combat strategy?

Materia isn't perfect and has its own significant draw backs that could make it less than ideal than just using your own power and limit breaks to fight.

Not undercutting their experience, I'm reinforcing the fact their experience is enough for them to know that you use everything you've got in a battle. Not purposefully handicap yourself in favor of some arbitrary princple or misconceived arrogance.

"OHHH WE SAVED THA WURLD, NOTHING CAN STOP US NOW"

You kinda are, because you're completely neglecting the fact that they would've weighed the pros and cons of materia usage before going into a situation they chose not to use it. You're assuming a bad decision was made when no evidence suggests such, save for your own biased viewpoint.

The fact that they saved the world and been through countless battles is precise why it's idiotic for them to limit themselves as such, during all those confrontations they fought with all they had, including materia. A summon disfigured by the power of the SHM is hardly some trifle, because they had to have done something to the materia to create a summon previously unheard of.

Bahamut Tremor wasn't disfigured by the SHM, it just is naturally that ugly

Again, you're assuming they wouldn't have weighed the pros and cons when they would. Materia isn't perfect or a costless positive modification when equipped. It has risks and drawbacks.

How they felt? HOW THEY FELT? Any battle against a force that can conceivably threaten an entire city is a threat, and fighting it is a risk. They've been through too many fights to suddenly be so arrogant when it comes to fighting powerful foes.

Not arrogant at all, they just made a decision based on their own experience and knowledge of materia fighting vs no materia fighting. Fighting with no materia =/= fighting with one arm behind your back.

Hypotheticals? They took a risk and managed to survive, that's not a fucking hypothetical.

No, you're coming up with the hypothetical scenario that the fight would be easier had they used materia, and not factoring in what they would lose or risk by relying on materia to fight. Such as expending their stamina to cast magic, having to focus to cast the appropriate spell, having to use the proper weaponry that allows for materia slots, and having to be sure that the materia they used didn't actually cure the beast or end up being ineffective.

Well, that's hardly his fault then is it?

Naw, but he agreed with it. He didn't want it.

Oh, I'm sorry, fighting against superhuman freaks while your body is failing isn't pushing yourself, I didn't know.

That's why I specified when Cloud was healthy.

Yeah he's pushing himself while sick.

Except the quote from RF implies they did swear if off, not that they pick and choose when to use it.

Now you're having me go back two pages to my explanation of how its a misinterpretation. Nomura didn't say they swore off materia. It just says the reason don't use materia is out of respect for the planet due to mako extraction harming the planet.

Casting magic still takes time and there's a delay before the spell comes out. Thats a moment of vulnerability and loss stamina that can be used to just keep fighting and instead use your own limit breaks that won't have you miss a beat.

And no Dacon, materia does *not* increase your physical stats in FFVII. In fact it does the opposite; it lowers them. When you use too much materia in FFVII, you loser physical strength and defense but gain magical defense and offense. That's why you don't overload materia.

@Forcestealer

No, butt in as much as you like

And you raise some good points that make sense, thank you.

Edit: Shit you really have me having to constantly edit my posts here

Well, you do give that impression. I'm not saying that's you feel, but you've definitely given that impression, that I remember people mentioning back on the ACF days. Hell, Masamune just said it now.

Not my fault your impression of me isn't based on the total picture of what I talk about.

The only thing is, I don't like to complain about what I don't like about the Compilation of FFVII. If it comes up, I'll say it but I find much more pleasure and a better utilization of my time discussing the fun aspects of it which I do like, not the sad parts that they've not gotten right.

And no, sigh, I don't feel as if every corner of the Compilation is wrong, I'm a harsh critic. Sure, it comes down to a difference of opinion, but in my opinion, SE and the Compilation better shape up or ship out. Other francises or even individual entries are passing it up.

That's your opinion. I really don't know what else to say about that other than, I disagree and feel they are hardly in the critical state of urgency you feel they are. The sales figures and S-E's outlook hardly match your belief.

Considering the amount of video games, anime, and such that have comparable powers like Haste and Fire and such...not...really.

And if you think they'd have utilize those spells and stuff like they do in other video games, anime and such...then I'll tell you, you give S-E too much credit.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Not my fault your impression of me isn't based on the total picture of what I talk about.

The only thing is, I don't like to complain about what I don't like about the Compilation of FFVII. If it comes up, I'll say it but I find much more pleasure and time utilization discussing the fun aspects of it which I do like, not the sad parts that they've not gotten right.

Well I mean, that's fair. However, it's not complaining by just stating what you feel is a weak point in something you like. I mean, my group of friends happen to like say, a TV series. And in conversations we discuss how the current season is turning out, and since we like it, we have good things to say. But considering we like it, we also know it enough to be frank about episodes, plotlines, characters, etc are complete garbage, or maybe just not really good.

However I have one friend that doesn't do any of that. Every single comment out of his mouth is 'I loved that episode!' 'What a great character!' 'Another end to a great season!' He's our friend, but we want to punch him in the mouth because it's so irritating to hear someone give the impression that they have nothing but unadulterated praise when even from an objective standpoint, the series isn't perfect.

I'm not saying that's you exactly, but it gives a more well rounded impression when a guy is frank about things he doesn't like.

That's your opinion. I really don't know what else to say about that other than, I disagree and feel they are hardly in the critical state of urgency you feel they are. The sales figures and S-E's outlook hardly match your belief.

I'm not saying that they're in a dire state, but since I've been getting into other franchises (I still over FF to the end, brother), I'm starting to see things that I didn't before.

And to be honest, sales figures aren't really the end all indicator of classical quality. It's just what's popular. Something that sells well may be good, but it's not a rule. I remember having a class about that.

And if you think they'd have utilize those spells and stuff like they do in other video games, anime and such...then I'll tell you, you give S-E too much credit.

Huh? Can you rephrase that? I'm stupid, lol

 

[Max Payne]

They brought in case they would need it. To be prepared. But they didn't...so it wasn't used.

When you bring an umbrella with you while you go out because you think it'll rain but it doesn't...does that mean you bringing the umbrella is pointless? No. You just were being prepared.

That doesn't compare, for one reason alone, you carry an umbrella on your person when you think it's going to rain, you don't leave it behind on an airship floating over your head.

No, they really didn't. Two times Barret and Red XIII came close is not several times. It's twice, and that's not that much given its a fight against a summon.

No, it's four, Yuffie almost gets blasted by a mega flare, and Cid almost gets squished on the side of a building while riding on the Bahamut's back.

How many times do you think its acceptable to come close to danger in a fight in FFVII before its stupid? Seriously, that's just so subjective.

It's only stupid when they knowingly limit themselves before the fight.

And I'm saying you're nitpicking when you say they didn't arrive at the same time when they roughly did. They didn't land simultaneously but they all arrived at Edge together.

They didn't arrive at the same time in the fight. They just didn't. That's evident in the film itself.

They were prepared because:

A.) They coordinated their entrance to Edge to save the people from the Shadow Creepers.

Barret only attacks the Shadow Creepers when they come at him, and Cid only attacks them when they lunge at Tifa, that is not protecting the people, that's looking after your own.

B.) They brought materia just in case they went up against a monster that required it but because it was the opponent they DID face, they chose not to.

They left the materia behind, hence not having it in case they needed it, that's being unprepared, especially when they had no idea what their foe is capable of.

C.) The movie does not show any moment in the film where the heroes suffered or loss because they did not have materia.

No, they just come close to it, not solely because of the lack of materia, but having it would have gone a long way to ensuring their victory, that's a fact.

So what did he do? Drive? He came with the group and the majority of the group (i.e. everyone but Vincent and the people who were already in Edge) came aboard the Sierra? I can't see him just walking or getting there before the Airship all on his own. It makes no sense.

Unless he was already near Edge, and got a call from Cid and coordinated his arrival with the others.

Cloud *was* there. They were't expecting Cloud to just not show up. He told Vincent he was heading back to Edge and they all knew he'd be there to fight too. Why would they think Cloud would just ditch and leave them to mop up the mess in Edge?

It's not about whether or not they thought he'd be there, they should have been prepared to look after themselves without his help.

Hence Barret almost getting squished by debris.

No one goes into a fight and wins thinking they can automatically win, but a person can also gauge what would be best before hand if they see what their opponent is. You don't think they saw Bahamut descend from the sky when their materia was used from the airship? Since Bahamut Tremor is their materia, they would definitely know its weaknesses and strengths and fight accordingly.

How the hell is Bahamut their materia when they never saw or fought the thing before AC? They had no idea what it was capable of, and even gauging what they know about the existing Bahamut summons, they know he's not a foe to be trifled with.

That can attributed to the fact they were fighting a man short. Cloud was a bit late due to having to get Denzel to safety and make it back. That has nothing to do with materia.

No, but materia would have more than made up for a lack of a team member or at the very least, aided them more in the fight until his arrival.

As I posted in my reply to M.O.G. they didn't limit themselves. You don't think materia has pros and cons like any other combat strategy?

Materia isn't perfect and has its own significant draw backs that could make it less than ideal than just using your own power and limit breaks to fight.

If materia was at all detrimental as you imply Cloud would not have advised Barret to use it, nor would they have used it in all their battles in FF7, it is obviously more beneficial in a fight than it is detrimental.

You kinda are, because you're completely neglecting the fact that they would've weighed the pros and cons of materia usage before going into a situation they chose not to use it. You're assuming a bad decision was made when no evidence suggests such, save for your own biased viewpoint.

You're making the assumption based off your own biased viewpoint, with no evidence suggesting that it would have being more harmful to carry materia in a fight than it would be beneficial.

Bahamut Tremor wasn't disfigured by the SHM, it just is naturally that ugly

It's not a summon they previously encountered, that's for sure.

Again, you're assuming they wouldn't have weighed the pros and cons when they would. Materia isn't perfect or a costless positive modification when equipped. It has risks and drawbacks.

It's drawbacks obviously are not significant enough to have kept them from using it in the entirety of the battles, even the final battle against Sephiroth.

Not arrogant at all, they just made a decision based on their own experience and knowledge of materia fighting vs no materia fighting. Fighting with no materia =/= fighting with one arm behind your back.

No they didn't, you're assuming they did. Fighting without all resources available is handicapping yourself.

No, you're coming up with the hypothetical scenario that the fight would be easier had they used materia, and not factoring in what they would lose or risk by relying on materia to fight. Such as expending their stamina to cast magic, having to focus to cast the appropriate spell, having to use the proper weaponry that allows for materia slots, and having to be sure that the materia they used didn't actually cure the beast or end up being ineffective.

Now, exactly where has it been stated that using materia has a significant effect on stamina? They've been through countless battles against otherworldly monsters but you can make the assumption that they purposefully neglected bringing it because they couldn't focus in battle to use it when they've done it in hundreds of battles?

Bullpies.

Naw, but he agreed with it. He didn't want it.

I don't recall Cloud ever telling anyone he didn't want materia in the film. He probably didn't even think to get his because he was in such a hurry to make sure everyone was ok.

That's why I specified when Cloud was healthy.

Which is why I specifically specify times when he was and wasn't sick during battle.

Except the quote from RF implies they did swear if off, not that they pick and choose when to use it.

Now you're having me go back two pages to my explanation of how its a misinterpretation. Nomura didn't say they swore off materia. It just says the reason don't use materia is out of respect for the planet due to mako extraction harming the planet.

How is it a misinterpretation to take the words as they are? That quote basically says they swore off using it.

Casting magic still takes time and there's a delay before the spell comes out. Thats a moment of vulnerability and loss stamina that can be used to just keep fighting and instead use your own limit breaks that won't have you miss a beat.

Apparently it doesn't take any longer than it does to charge a limit break if the battles in FF7 are anything to go by, they're instantenously casted when you choose the command, nor is there any deduction from stamina when you use them, just MP, and that does not rob them of their speed or strength in battle.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I've no need to explain what I don't like about the Compilation of FFVII because it's either been stated, it hasn't been personally asked of me, and I don't find much enjoyment in talking about it. I find no point in discussing it. I find much more enjoyment and pleasure discussing the concepts and pros of the Compilation I like because it brings to mind what I do enjoy, and thus I post more. For me, it gets old stating the obvious facts that DC is a rushed, mediocre shooter with awkward controls, a plot that was not delved into enough and could've been so much better had S-E not rushed it to coincide with the release of KH2 in Japan and thus cash in on the holiday rush of game sales. It's something any intelligent fan with knowledge of Square knows. Square knows it too and they didn't repeat that mistake with Crisis Core. Because they didn't I'm moving on.

I don't think S-E is the epitome of gaming or storyline quality but I feel its up there and while some franchises do things better than SE in numerous aspects, I accept S-E for what it is, and enjoy what it gives me. When I want something else, I go somewhere else and am also entertained.

I don't expect S-E to be perfect and I really don't care. I'm just in it for entertainment.

And what I was talking about was, those concepts of haste, float, you said that they could've incorporated into AC...without looking like DBZ because other franchises and shows do it.

You give their style too much...variability here. And here's me just pointing out the obvious. While I love the way they style their combat and fighting, the fact is...they can't quite get too far away from it. I bet you that if they did incorporate the spells Haste, Float, and what have you...it'd end up like DBZ because Nomura and Kitase share Toriyama's "anything goes" attitude towards fantasy and action. They'd make it wild. Because that's just how they are.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I've no need to explain what I don't like about the Compilation of FFVII because it's either been stated, it hasn't been personally asked of me, and I don't find much enjoyment in talking about it. I find no point in discussing it. I find much more enjoyment and pleasure discussing the concepts and pros of the Compilation I like because it brings to mind what I do enjoy, and thus I post more. For me, it gets old stating the obvious facts that DC is a rushed, mediocre shooter with awkward controls, a plot that was not delved into enough and could've been so much better had S-E not rushed it to coincide with the release of KH2 in Japan and thus cash in on the holiday rush of game sales. It's something any intelligent fan with knowledge of Square knows. Square knows it too and they didn't repeat that mistake with Crisis Core. Because they didn't I'm moving on.

I don't think S-E is the epitome of gaming or storyline quality but I feel its up there and while some franchises do things better than SE in numerous aspects, I accept S-E for what it is, and enjoy what it gives me. When I want something else, I go somewhere else and am also entertained.

I don't expect S-E to be perfect and I really don't care. I'm just in it for entertainment.

Hey man, no need to justify yourself to me! It's all good. However, my point was, when/if people say 'Boy Mako sure loves Square Enix and everything they do!', the reasons I previously stated are why they may have that impression.

Of course I'm not saying that you have to give a damn of what some peeps may think of you, but however as a tip if you want to give the impression of yourself that you're a well rounded fan of the Compilation instead of a *gulp*, fanboy, it may be prudent to keep in mind?

After all, the reasons you gave for not stating your dislikes for the Compilation can also be turned the other way around; what if I (for example) didn't state anything good about the Compilation because it's already been stated, wasn't asked of me, or I don't find much enjoyment in talking about it? It's all about impressions and being a well rounded fan. Just a thought!

And what I was talking about was, those concepts of haste, float, you said that they could've incorporated into AC...without looking like DBZ because other franchises and shows do it.

You give their style too much...variability here. And here's me just pointing out the obvious. While I love the way they style their combat and fighting, the fact is...they can't quite get too far away from it. I bet you that if they did incorporate the spells Haste, Float, and what have you...it'd end up like DBZ because Nomura and Kitase share Toriyama's "anything goes" attitude towards fantasy and action. They'd make it wild. Because that's just how they are.

Which I regret. Personally, I wish they would have kept the style more along FFXII or even FFX. Oh well.

 

[Max Payne]

I demand my previous post be responded to.

It's been too long since I've done this with Makofart.

I also agree with MOG, I see no reason to gush over what little the compilation did right, seeing as how thousands of fans already do. If I did, I wouldn't get to have these delightful little chats with Makofarts.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That doesn't compare, for one reason alone, you carry an umbrella on your person when you think it's going to rain, you don't leave it behind on an airship floating over your head.

Well you can bring the umbrella with you when you go to your car but when you leave your car and go out, you can leave it in your car There, that compares!

No, it's four, Yuffie almost gets blasted by a mega flare, and Cid almost gets squished on the side of a building while riding on the Bahamut's back.

The script doesn't call those close calls and I really didn't see them that way either. The close ones were Red and Barret about to get munched on by Bahamut since it was feet from their face, and Barret about to be crushed by the falling debris. That was close. Those close calls you bring up are just the risks of combat period. It just happens cause fighting is wild.

They didn't arrive at the same time in the fight. They just didn't. That's evident in the film itself.

Then why does the timline lump them all together arriving at Edge? They all got there at Edge. The fact the film dramatically cuts to each one making their individual entrance is just cause its a film. Barret and Red didn't make it to Edge first while Yuffie was still in Kalm, running late. They were all generally there.

Barret only attacks the Shadow Creepers when they come at him, and Cid only attacks them when they lunge at Tifa, that is not protecting the people, that's looking after your own.

The entire point of their fighting though is to defend Edge, so by them taking on the fight and doing it, they're doing it for the sake of saving Edge and its people. ACC more than likely is gonna show more of them fighting monsters so we'll see how that goes too.

They left the materia behind, hence not having it in case they needed it, that's being unprepared, especially when they had no idea what their foe is capable of.

You forget Bahamut Tremor is THEIR materia so actually they would know what it was capable of and they'd have seen it while it was summoned and tearing Edge up.

No, they just come close to it, not solely because of the lack of materia, but having it would have gone a long way to ensuring their victory, that's a fact.

Not really, no. It's not a fact because materia opens up more avenues of problems and defeat due to its drawbacks which I've mentioned before.

It's not about whether or not they thought he'd be there, they should have been prepared to look after themselves without his help.

Hence Barret almost getting squished by debris.

But that's the thing. They trust each other. They knew they'd be together and their trust was right.

How the hell is Bahamut their materia when they never saw or fought the thing before AC? They had no idea what it was capable of, and even gauging what they know about the existing Bahamut summons, they know he's not a foe to be trifled with.

Bahamut Tremor comes from Cloud and co's materia collection. It's called their materia, and when Yuffie sees Bahamut running amok she states, "Who's been touching my materia?" Clearly, as shown in the movie and materials, its really theirs. So they know it. Maybe if they make FFVII again, they'll add Bahamut Tremor as a new summon you can get. But the fact, its theirs.

No, but materia would have more than made up for a lack of a team member or at the very least, aided them more in the fight until his arrival.

How do you know? You again, see materia as a costless form of combat with no drawbacks when it has clear drawbacks.

If materia was at all detrimental as you imply Cloud would not have advised Barret to use it, nor would they have used it in all their battles in FF7, it is obviously more beneficial in a fight than it is detrimental.

Materia is beneficial when used wisely and with balance. Furthermore, back then, they were not as strong as they were during AC. When they're so strong they can leap building, run on walls, and channel their spirit energy to control in and use their limit breaks at will, then they can re-evaluate whether or not they need to use materia as much as they did two years ago.

You're making the assumption based off your own biased viewpoint, with no evidence suggesting that it would have being more harmful to carry materia in a fight than it would be beneficial.

No, actually I have proof. Before Crisis goes indepth to show that materia that's too strong can be dangerous when it saps too much of the life energy in a person to cast. Magic use requires a casting time that can take long if the materia is particularly potent or powerful. Lots of spirit energy is needed to use really powerful materia such as the Black Materia in FFVII, hence Sephiroth needing to draw from the Lifsetream in the Northern Crater to invoke Meteor.

Materia actually LOWERS your physical and physical defense stats when you equip it and if you use too much, you'll do very little damage physically, while your magic is strengthened.

And finally the SHM BLOW UP when they use too much materia at once.

There's lots of evidence that shows there's a draw back to materia usage. You leave yourself open sometimes when you cast powerful spells, you lose strength, and it takes spirit energy to cast which you could INSTEAD use for your limit breaks.

It's not a summon they previously encountered, that's for sure.

But AC is apparently telling us it is because its their summon.

It's drawbacks obviously are not significant enough to have kept them from using it in the entirety of the battles, even the final battle against Sephiroth.

Again, back when they were not as strong as they are in AC. And really, I think we can assume they didn't overload themselves with it, what with the draw backs and Cloud saying he doesn't like carrying around too much of it.

No they didn't, you're assuming they did. Fighting without all resources available is handicapping yourself.

How am I assuming they'd make a decision that way, especially when the decision worked and they won? That doesn't make sense?

Now, exactly where has it been stated that using materia has a significant effect on stamina? They've been through countless battles against otherworldly monsters but you can make the assumption that they purposefully neglected bringing it because they couldn't focus in battle to use it when they've done it in hundreds of battles?

Before Crisis for one, explains the reason Elfe is losing her strength and life energy is because the Zirconaide materia that she has equipped to her body is too powerful and is sucking away too much of her life to sustain itself. Furthermore, magic requires spirit energy to cast, and that's shown through MP. You can't just perpetually cast magic without tiring out.

And I'm not saying they couldn't. I'm saying they chose not to (which they obviously did) because it'd be easier not to worry about those draw backs of having to make sure they use weapons with slots, picking the right materia, and ensuring they don't tire out, when they could rely on their own physical power and spirit energy for limit breaks.

I don't recall Cloud ever telling anyone he didn't want materia in the film. He probably didn't even think to get his because he was in such a hurry to make sure everyone was ok.

If he chose not to use it, and is wielding a weapon with zero materia slots, then he had to have made a conscious choice not to worry about materia that much.

How is it a misinterpretation to take the words as they are? That quote basically says they swore off using it.

No, it doesn't. It says the reason they don't use materia is due to respect out of the planet more or less. NOT that they've sworn never to use it again.

Apparently it doesn't take any longer than it does to charge a limit break if the battles in FF7 are anything to go by, they're instantenously casted when you choose the command, nor is there any deduction from stamina when you use them, just MP, and that does not rob them of their speed or strength in battle.

Well it does take time. If you look at CC, BC, and FFVII, they obviously have to go through a casting/focusing motion to make the spell come out. They don't just fling spells as instantaneously. When Genesis fights Sephiroth in CC in the flashback in the training room you see him having to focus the fire into his hand while floating in the air.

When Tifa fought Loz in AC, she didn't charge up. She just fought, jumped on the walls, and used her sheer power channeled with her spirit energy to fight. Where was the charge time?

EDIT: Hold your horses Bacons, I swear, tonight you fuckers are seriously zerg rushing me here

@Notorious M.O.G.

Fair enough, but I don't fear coming off as a fanboy because I'm not afraid to be confronted with the faults of what I like and be honest about them. Likewise, I feel no shame in speaking up for what I like.

And yeah, you can say the exact same thing, about why I like stating what I like. It just goes to show how people have different perspectives.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Hey, it's all good.

Now I'll let you and Dacon kill each other, I have a pizza to attend to. And by attend to I mean 'eat'.

 

[Max Payne]

Well you can bring the umbrella with you when you go to your car but when you leave your car and go out, you can leave it in your car There, that compares!

YOUR CAR DOESN'T CIRCLE OVER YOUR HEAD 50 FEET IN THE AIR.

The script doesn't call those close calls and I really didn't see them that way either. The close ones were Red and Barret about to get munched on by Bahamut since it was feet from their face, and Barret about to be crushed by the falling debris. That was close. Those close calls you bring up are just the risks of combat period. It just happens cause fighting is wild.

How are they not close calls man? If their buddies didn't pull their fat out the fire they'd really have been hurt dood.

Then why does the timline lump them all together arriving at Edge? They all got there at Edge. The fact the film dramatically cuts to each one making their individual entrance is just cause its a film.

The timeline says that because they all arrived in the same time frame, the hour of 2:00, it's not going to list them at 2:01, 2:02, so on and so forth.

Barret and Red didn't make it to Edge first while Yuffie was still in Kalm, running late. They were all generally there.

But not all at the same time.

The entire point of their fighting though is to defend Edge, so by them taking on the fight and doing it, they're doing it for the sake of saving Edge and its people. ACC more than likely is gonna show more of them fighting monsters so we'll see how that goes too.

Well, it's all good if that's what happens in ACC, but not what happens in the movie, yes they're fighting for the sake of the city, but they're not actively hunting down the Creepers.

You forget Bahamut Tremor is THEIR materia so actually they would know what it was capable of and they'd have seen it while it was summoned and tearing Edge up.

I'm sorry, but exactly why would Kadaj not be able to change the properties of materia, when he can materialize monsters out of thin air? It's not beyond the realm of his powers man.

And I maintain Bahamut Sin/Tremor is not one of their summons, he might be summoned from their materia, but that doesn't mean he's one of theirs from the original game.

Not really, no. It's not a fact because materia opens up more avenues of problems and defeat due to its drawbacks which I've mentioned before.

Drawbacks which I've never heard of.

But that's the thing. They trust each other. They knew they'd be together and their trust was right.

Kinda hard to trust someone who isn't there.

Bahamut Tremor comes from Cloud and co's materia collection. It's called their materia, and when Yuffie sees Bahamut running amok she states, "Who's been touching my materia?" Clearly, as shown in the movie and materials, its really theirs. So they know it. Maybe if they make FFVII again, they'll add Bahamut Tremor as a new summon you can get. But the fact, its theirs.

You're not understanding, I'm saying that the summon is not theirs, he might be materialized from their materia, but that doesn't make him one of the summons they had for the reasons I've pointed out.

How do you know? You again, see materia as a costless form of combat with no drawbacks when it has clear drawbacks.

Drawbacks which aren't present before and I still haven't seen them.

Materia is beneficial when used wisely and with balance. Furthermore, back then, they were not as strong as they were during AC. When they're so strong they can leap building, run on walls, and channel their spirit energy to control in and use their limit breaks at will, then they can re-evaluate whether or not they need to use materia as much as they did two years ago.

Pretty sure they were that strong at the end FF7 when they were facing Weapons and Sephiroth who had almost unreal strength. Whether or not they need it, they shouldn't assume that they don't.

You're making the assumption based off your own biased viewpoint, with no evidence suggesting that it would have being more harmful to carry materia in a fight than it would be beneficial.

No, actually I have proof. Before Crisis goes indepth to show that materia that's too strong can be dangerous when it saps too much of the life energy in a person to cast. Magic use requires a casting time that can take long if the materia is particularly potent or powerful. Lots of spirit energy is needed to use really powerful materia such as the Black Materia in FFVII, hence Sephiroth needing to draw from the Lifsetream in the Northern Crater to invoke Meteor.

Except none of the materia you gathered and equipped in FFVII was that strong.

Materia actually LOWERS your physical and physical defense stats when you equip it and if you use too much, you'll do very little damage physically, while your magic is strengthened.

I just equipped Cloud with some of my most powerful materia and his stats are almost unchanged, while some went down and others went up, but the change is almost unnoticable, this is endgame too.

And finally the SHM BLOW UP when they use too much materia at once.

Well, for one thing it's not smart to SHOVE SHITLOADS OF IT INSIDE YOUR BODY.

There's lots of evidence that shows there's a draw back to materia usage. You leave yourself open sometimes when you cast powerful spells, you lose strength, and it takes spirit energy to cast which you could INSTEAD use for your limit breaks.

Except it's nowhere near that detrimental, nor does it drain their Limit gauges. Probably because the materia they used was never strong enough to drain the lifeforce from them.

But AC is apparently telling us it is because its their summon.

Are you seriously telling me that someone who summons monsters from thin air at will can't corrupt materia and change it's properties? Not to mention the materia isn't even the proper color, I think that has a lot to do with Kadaj's powers.

Again, back when they were not as strong as they are in AC. And really, I think we can assume they didn't overload themselves with it, what with the draw backs and Cloud saying he doesn't like carrying around too much of it.

Pretty sure they were that strong endgame FFVII, they'd have to be to have defeated those enemies.

Cloud probably felt that way because it's probably only detrimental if you OVERLOAD yourself with it, there's a reason that there's a limit to the amount you can equip.

How am I assuming they'd make a decision that way, especially when the decision worked and they won? That doesn't make sense?

It's an assumption because you don't know if that is what they did or not. It makes more sense for them to have rushed off into battle out of worry after seeing the damage done to the city, than to intentionally neglect equip materia they went through the trouble of bringing.

Before Crisis for one, explains the reason Elfe is losing her strength and life energy is because the Zirconaide materia that she has equipped to her body is too powerful and is sucking away too much of her life to sustain itself. Furthermore, magic requires spirit energy to cast, and that's shown through MP. You can't just perpetually cast magic without tiring out.

I highly doubt that materia uses the same energy used for limit breaks, also, none of the materia they carried in FF7 was strong enough to actively drain the lifeforce of the users, or we would know of it in the original game.

MP is not the same as spirit energy, it can't be, otherwise they wouldn't be able to keep trucking, fighting at the same level and using limit breaks.

It's probably akin to how magic is described in a book I read. It's like having a feeling of fullness in your center, not like after eating, a feeling that depletes when you use more and more of it, and when it's all gone you feel a sort of emptiness that worries you, and distracts you.

It just doesn't make any sense to say you need spirit energy to use magic when limit breaks do the same, and yet you can use them without MP.

And I'm not saying they couldn't. I'm saying they chose not to (which they obviously did) because it'd be easier not to worry about those draw backs of having to make sure they use weapons with slots, picking the right materia, and ensuring they don't tire out, when they could rely on their own physical power and spirit energy for limit breaks.

I find it unlikely that using magic tires you out that much simply because it contradicts the mechanics established in the original game. The whole time to cast spells could be a factor, but it's not that long a gap to be a huge disadvantage in battle.

If he chose not to use it, and is wielding a weapon with zero materia slots, then he had to have made a conscious choice not to worry about materia that much.

Or he just didn't think about it at the time, and materia could fit in there somewhere, seeing as how people jam it right in their craw (yes I know they don't have real human bodies). I just doubt Cloud really refused to use materia given all the shit happening to him, it makes more sense for him to just not have the time for it, not to mention his shit got jacked. Hell, I think he went back to the church when he found Tifa to retrieve it.

Not to pray to his goddess Aeris like people want to believe.

No, it doesn't. It says the reason they don't use materia is due to respect out of the planet more or less. NOT that they've sworn never to use it again.

It says they don't use materia anymore out of respect to the planet. That's swearing it off damn you.

Well it does take time. If you look at CC, BC, and FFVII, they obviously have to go through a casting/focusing motion to make the spell come out. They don't just fling spells as instantaneously. When Genesis fights Sephiroth in CC in the flashback in the training room you see him having to focus the fire into his hand while floating in the air.

They focus, but it does not take that long. There was plenty of time in the Bahamut battle to cast spells, seeing as how his attention was diverted from person to person so easily.

When Tifa fought Loz in AC, she didn't charge up. She just fought, jumped on the walls, and used her sheer power channeled with her spirit energy to fight. Where was the charge time?

What? And for one thing most of Tifa's limits don't require charging, just brute strength with the exception of Final Heaven, unlike a lot of the other characters.

 

[Tetsujin]

Despite the reasons that can be cited for them not using materia, I too actually think it's stupid to not incorporate magic spells in what is a fantasy movie based on a franchise that makes PLENTY of use of magic spells.

Considering how they tried their darndest to make the battles as spectacular as possible, I see no good reason for them not to incorporate some fancy magic spells as well.

Except laziness. Same reason why they didn't include RedXIII as much and left out Cait Sith's mogry completely. "Oh, the animation was too complicated""Oh, we're fucking lazy".

We can argue all day about the in-universe reasons given, but I think it's pretty obvious they just couldn't be arsed to animate magic spells,and that will always remain a stupid reason.

 

[Max Payne]

I don't see how it would be anymore out of place or outlandish as the floating in the air, jumping 100 feet in the air and landing unharmed, or Sephiroth making a building collapse with a wave of his hand, or changing the atmosphere with a wave of the hand.

 

[Makoeyes987]

YOUR CAR DOESN'T CIRCLE OVER YOUR HEAD 50 FEET IN THE AIR.

LOL dude, it's the same thing as just keeping the car parked and outside where you are! I mean, they probably didn't want to waste time and risk it getting damaged by landing it thus it stayed in the air. I mean, c'mon, you know what I mean.

How are they not close calls man? If their buddies didn't pull their fat out the fire they'd really have been hurt dood.

Yeah, but those close calls happen in any major confrontation. I don't think all close calls save for the dire ones like Barret getting swallowed or crush by rubble deserve mention as moments they nearly fucked up.

The timeline says that because they all arrived in the same time frame, the hour of 2:00, it's not going to list them at 2:01, 2:02, so on and so forth.

Okay, so let's just agree they arrived at in the same time frame. That's fine with me. Okay.

Well, it's all good if that's what happens in ACC, but not what happens in the movie, yes they're fighting for the sake of the city, but they're not actively hunting down the Creepers.

Well yeah, they aren't hunting them, but what I meant was..they're just fighting to defend Edge. It's a fight for the city.

I'm sorry, but exactly why would Kadaj not be able to change the properties of materia, when he can materialize monsters out of thin air? It's not beyond the realm of his powers man.

I suppose he could, but they don't say that's what he did. He is a being of spirit energy using crystalized spirit energy hence him being able to just merge the materia into his body, but I don't think Bahamut Tremor is ugly because of him. It's just his design. It's just how it is.

And I maintain Bahamut Sin/Tremor is not one of their summons, he might be summoned from their materia, but that doesn't mean he's one of theirs from the original game.

Well yeah, he's not from the original game, but in terms of the continuity of the narrative, apparently sometime during FFVII or maybe after, they got the Bahamut Tremor materia and its there's.

Yuffie recognizes it so they obviously know of it.

Kinda hard to trust someone who isn't there.

But isn't that the beauty of trust

Seriously, they find Cloud reliable. Look at how cool Barret takes Cloud coming just in the nick of time to save him.

You're not understanding, I'm saying that the summon is not theirs, he might be materialized from their materia, but that doesn't make him one of the summons they had for the reasons I've pointed out.

But if he comes from their materia, and Yuffie recognizes him to the point she says "Who's been touchin' my materia" then clearly there's some form of ownership and familiarity. They didn't go "What IS that?" or show surprise at it at all. Kadaj reached out of the box of Cloud and co's materia and summoned from said materia a summon. I don't think a different summon would come out of a materia its not supposed to.

Pretty sure they were that strong at the end FF7 when they were facing Weapons and Sephiroth who had almost unreal strength. Whether or not they need it, they shouldn't assume that they don't.

I believe they were close but not exactly that same level they were at in AC.

I just equipped Cloud with some of my most powerful materia and his stats are almost unchanged, while some went down and others went up, but the change is almost unnoticable, this is endgame too.

Okay, give Cloud Contain, Ultima, Knights of the Round, Alexander, Bahamut Zero, and some other uber powerful spells and summons and you will see a huge drop in Cloud's physical attack and defense stats. His Stamina and Strength will drop. But his Spirit and Magic Attack will rise. I don't have the figures but seriously, you will lose strength at the cost of heightened magic power when you load up on powerful spells like that. It's the drawback of materia. I'm pretty sure the tutorial for it says that too.

Well, for one thing it's not smart to SHOVE SHITLOADS OF IT INSIDE YOUR BODY.

An extreme example but still, it shows materia has drawbacks.

Except it's nowhere near that detrimental, nor does it drain their Limit gauges. Probably because the materia they used was never strong enough to drain the lifeforce from them.

Well Limit Breaks require spirit energy, and so does magic. In FFVII they rightfully never equip that much, but if it exhausts one's life force energy to cast spells (as shown in the Comp and FFVII) then whatever reserves for limit breaks they do have *will* be depleted using materia.

Are you seriously telling me that someone who summons monsters from thin air at will can't corrupt materia and change it's properties? Not to mention the materia isn't even the proper color, I think that has a lot to do with Kadaj's powers.

A lot of people bring up the color but I honestly think the creators just don't give a damn. I'm not saying he can't but where does it say he does? The Reunion Files explains his look and makes no mention of it being corrupt or a result of Kadaj. It's just seriously that fucking ugly

Except none of the materia you gathered and equipped in FFVII was that strong.

Not individually no, but those drawbacks *would* manifest in some way if you equipped too much, or equipped any at all. It's the cost of materia usage.

It's an assumption because you don't know if that is what they did or not. It makes more sense for them to have rushed off into battle out of worry after seeing the damage done to the city, than to intentionally neglect equip materia they went through the trouble of bringing.

I don't see how, at all. They were in a rush to save people but

1.) They saw Bahamut and recognized it and thus knew what to expect.
2.) They have experience fighting and know what to do and not to do.
3.) They're not stupid.

So I don't think they'd do something stupid and I don't see choosing not to use materia against a summoned beast as stupid.

I highly doubt that materia uses the same energy used for limit breaks, also, none of the materia they carried in FF7 was strong enough to actively drain the lifeforce of the users, or we would know of it in the original game.

But it does. Cloud states it on Disc 1 when explaining why they couldn't use the Black Materia. It requires spirit energy. Limit Breaks require spirit energy. So it's the same. The Black Materia is one materia that's too strong to use and would actively drain the life of the caster. Hence the game doesn't let you use it.

Zirconaide is another good example from BC.

MP is not the same as spirit energy, it can't be, otherwise they wouldn't be able to keep trucking, fighting at the same level and using limit breaks.

I think MP is just a game concept that represents the amount of spirit energy a person can expend for magic before dangerously exhausting themselves. But the story states clearly that a person's spirit energy is used to cast magic and use materia. It's an interaction.

It's probably akin to how magic is described in a book I read. It's like having a feeling of fullness in your center, not like after eating, a feeling that depletes when you use more and more of it, and when it's all gone you feel a sort of emptiness that worries you, and distracts you.

Yeah, it could be like that. But it's also tied to ones spirit energy in their body too.

It just doesn't make any sense to say you need spirit energy to use magic when limit breaks do the same, and yet you can use them without MP.

I can quote you from FFVII:

Cloud picks up the Black Materia.

Cloud: Mmm? Can you guys use it?

Aerith: Nope, we can't use it right now. You need great spiritual power to use
it.

Cloud: You mean lots of Spiritual energy?

Aerith: That's right. One person's power alone won't do it. Somewhere special.
Where there's plenty of the Planet's energy... Oh yeah! The Promised Land!!

See? One needs spirit energy to use materia. And some materia is so great, that one's own spirit energy isn't enough to use it.

Or he just didn't think about it at the time, and materia could fit in there somewhere, seeing as how people jam it right in their craw (yes I know they don't have real human bodies). I just doubt Cloud really refused to use materia given all the shit happening to him, it makes more sense for him to just not have the time for it, not to mention his shit got jacked. Hell, I think he went back to the church when he found Tifa to retrieve it.

Not to pray to his goddess Aeris like people want to believe.

Cloud was noticeably concerned when he noticed the materia was gone. I don't think he abandoned it but I think he feels more comfortable using himself and his own power. He's not like Zack who likes materia and uses it freely like a SOLDIER.

It says they don't use materia anymore out of respect to the planet. That's swearing it off damn you.

Swearing it off means never using it again. They do! So they didn't swear anything off! It's just an explanation as to why they DON'T use it when they do!

What? And for one thing most of Tifa's limits don't require charging, just brute strength with the exception of Final Heaven, unlike a lot of the other characters.

All magic has a cast time. It just does and regardless of how short it is, its not as fast as just DOING your own unique limit break as seen in AC.

And while Tifa's attacks are just brute force and stuff, they are limit breaks, meaning she *is* using her spirit energy to augment her strength and make her self stronger.

To bring in Naruto for a comparison...it's like how Tsunade and Sakura use their chakra to amplify their strength, and move fast, walk on walls, break walls, etc.

She uses her spirit energy like that for her abilities, until she decides to create a nuclear explosion with her fist. :mosnter:

@Tetsujin

Goddamn you, not you too! You guys are just really giving me hell tonight

And its not laziness since they illustrated the magical effects and looks with Kadaj, the other SHM, the limit breaks, etc. It really isn't that hard and they DID incorporate a form of magic in AC. Just through limit breaks!

Dude, I'm about to burn out, I haven't done this tl;dr shit in too long, seriously. XDDD

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah Kadaj was essentially using Matra Magic, so they don't seem to have a problem animating magic.

If its not story, it seems more like they just think physical battles 'look better' or are more exciting than battles with magic. You'll notice in the DC battle that even Deepground doesn't use any magic (Rosso seems to use a limit). But there is plenty of magical stuff once Vincent is Chaos and of course Genesis uses magic, so it seems more like a personal preference than laziness.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The only Tsviets that actively use materia and magic of some kind are Shelke and Azul.

Who are ironically the two weakest among the Tsviets

 

[Tetsujin]

And Kadaj used magic how many times? Twice? Lame.

 

[Max Payne]

LOL dude, it's the same thing as just keeping the car parked and outside where you are! I mean, they probably didn't want to waste time and risk it getting damaged by landing it thus it stayed in the air. I mean, c'mon, you know what I mean.

No it's not nigger, it's easier to get to a car than a vehicle hovering miles over your head.

Yeah, but those close calls happen in any major confrontation. I don't think all close calls save for the dire ones like Barret getting swallowed or crush by rubble deserve mention as moments they nearly fucked up.

I'm sorry, but Cid almost becoming paste is DIRE.

Okay, so let's just agree they arrived at in the same time frame. That's fine with me. Okay.

Fine ngr.

Well yeah, they aren't hunting them, but what I meant was..they're just fighting to defend Edge. It's a fight for the city.

MASTER OF OBVIOUS STATING I DEEM YOU.

I suppose he could, but they don't say that's what he did. He is a being of spirit energy using crystalized spirit energy hence him being able to just merge the materia into his body, but I don't think Bahamut Tremor is ugly because of him. It's just his design. It's just how it is.

It's not a matter of him being ugly, he's just a mutation of a Summon, he's not anymore ugly than the other incarnations imo.

Well yeah, he's not from the original game, but in terms of the continuity of the narrative, apparently sometime during FFVII or maybe after, they got the Bahamut Tremor materia and its there's.

But that's never stated so we have no reason to assume it as such. It makes more sense for Kadaj to have fucked with the materia to make the summon's power more potent.

Yuffie recognizes it so they obviously know of it.

They know of Bahamut and the fact that he changes forms.

But isn't that the beauty of trust

Seriously, they find Cloud reliable. Look at how cool Barret takes Cloud coming just in the nick of time to save him.

Just assuming he'll come to save your ass is pretty careless man.

But if he comes from their materia, and Yuffie recognizes him to the point she says "Who's been touchin' my materia" then clearly there's some form of ownership and familiarity. They didn't go "What IS that?" or show surprise at it at all. Kadaj reached out of the box of Cloud and co's materia and summoned from said materia a summon. I don't think a different summon would come out of a materia its not supposed to.

I've already stated response to a lot of this a few seconds ago.

I believe they were close but not exactly that same level they were at in AC.

Why wouldn't they be? They didn't do anymore fighting after that for a couple years, save for Cloud wacking a few monsters on his delivery routes.

Okay, give Cloud Contain, Ultima, Knights of the Round, Alexander, Bahamut Zero, and some other uber powerful spells and summons and you will see a huge drop in Cloud's physical attack and defense stats. His Stamina and Strength will drop. But his Spirit and Magic Attack will rise. I don't have the figures but seriously, you will lose strength at the cost of heightened magic power when you load up on powerful spells like that. It's the drawback of materia. I'm pretty sure the tutorial for it says that too.

Okay, I did that, and it's still not a significant drop man. Must have something to do with being level 99, and contain is worthless to me :/

An extreme example but still, it shows materia has drawbacks.

They also were using all of it all at once in a desperate effort to dust Cloud too. Pretty sure that's a very stupid thing to do.

Well Limit Breaks require spirit energy, and so does magic. In FFVII they rightfully never equip that much, but if it exhausts one's life force energy to cast spells (as shown in the Comp and FFVII) then whatever reserves for limit breaks they do have *will* be depleted using materia.

But that never happens. It just doesn't, nor is it stated that it drains their life energy.

A lot of people bring up the color but I honestly think the creators just don't give a damn. I'm not saying he can't but where does it say he does? The Reunion Files explains his look and makes no mention of it being corrupt or a result of Kadaj. It's just seriously that fucking ugly

I doubt they'd really just throw all that out the window, I see no reason for them to neglect the colors, then again they did change Tifa's eye color : /

It's not a matter of being ugly GODDAMN YOU, it's that it's a new form of Bahamut previously unheard of.

Not individually no, but those drawbacks *would* manifest in some way if you equipped too much, or equipped any at all. It's the cost of materia usage.

Yeah, but if you're a high enough level the drain on your stats isn't that big at all.

I don't see how, at all. They were in a rush to save people but

1.) They saw Bahamut and recognized it and thus knew what to expect.
2.) They have experience fighting and know what to do and not to do.
3.) They're not stupid.

Leaving Materia behind in a rush to save lives isn't what I'd call stupid, foolhardy, yes, but if your friends were in danger you'd overlook something in favor of going to their defense.

So I don't think they'd do something stupid and I don't see choosing not to use materia against a summoned beast as stupid.

It's stupid as in leaving behind a valuable resource for combat behind, when it could make a difference in battle, it's just careless, which is why I think they'd leave it behind if they were in a rush to go save lives, especially those of their friends, thus make it not stupid, just reckless.

But it does. Cloud states it on Disc 1 when explaining why they couldn't use the Black Materia. It requires spirit energy.

Black Materia is not normal materia in any sense, using it as the standard for all materia and it's requirements for use is a bit of a stretch man.

Limit Breaks require spirit energy. So it's the same. The Black Materia is one materia that's too strong to use and would actively drain the life of the caster. Hence the game doesn't let you use it.

Then that means it doesn't apply to normal materia.

I think MP is just a game concept that represents the amount of spirit energy a person can expend for magic before dangerously exhausting themselves. But the story states clearly that a person's spirit energy is used to cast magic and use materia. It's an interaction.

That doesn't make any sense, because Limit Breaks supposedly use the same energy, you can't throw out MP simply because it's a game concept, when so are Limit Breaks and the ridiculous feats they perform ingame.

Yeah, it could be like that. But it's also tied to ones spirit energy in their body too.

Ok, maybe just a little, but it can't be that much if they use limit breaks quite easily without MP, which is a measure of spirit energy according to you and whatever source you have that says this.

See? One needs spirit energy to use materia. And some materia is so great, that one's own spirit energy isn't enough to use it.

That does not suggest that all material requires Spirit Energy, just the Black Materia, which is a very special kind of materia. Just like Zirowhatever from BC.

Cloud was noticeably concerned when he noticed the materia was gone. I don't think he abandoned it but I think he feels more comfortable using himself and his own power. He's not like Zack who likes materia and uses it freely like a SOLDIER.

Maybe so, but he's also smart enough to recognize it's importance and use in battle.

Swearing it off means never using it again. They do! So they didn't swear anything off! It's just an explanation as to why they DON'T use it when they do!

Except it does, people break oaths when they have to. IT'S ALSO AN EXPLANATION THAT IS COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY AND SPARKED THIS ARGUMENT.

All magic has a cast time. It just does and regardless of how short it is, its not as fast as just DOING your own unique limit break as seen in AC.

Except some of those limit breaks need charging too, and cast times are quite short. They both have disadvantages. Even Omnislash and Omnislash 1.5 need charging, as does blade beam, and a few others from the other characters. Only the weaker ones are really fast.

And while Tifa's attacks are just brute force and stuff, they are limit breaks, meaning she *is* using her spirit energy to augment her strength and make her self stronger.

If she really was using spirit energy, they would have shown some sort of representation of them, rather than just presenting them as normal fighting techniques. All of Cloud's have representation, as does Barret's and Red's, why would they neglect Tifa's? I think her's are the exception, sure some of them might use energy, but it can't be the same for beat rush and others.

To bring in Naruto for a comparison...it's like how Tsunade and Sakura use their chakra to amplify their strength, and move fast, walk on walls, break walls, etc.

Go to hell, you did not just use a naruto comparison.

Die.

She uses her spirit energy like that for her abilities, until she decides to create a nuclear explosion with her fist. :mosnter:

Doesn't make any sense to me. No indication of investment of energy, nor is there a resounding unbelievable effect from them. You may be right, but I just don't buy it.

You guys are just really giving me hell tonight

NO WRITHE IN MY CAGE OF TORMENT.

And its not laziness since they illustrated the magical effects and looks with Kadaj, the other SHM, the limit breaks, etc. It really isn't that hard and they DID incorporate a form of magic in AC. Just through limit breaks!

The effects they included with the except of the materialization of Bahamut were not really all that impressive, and I can even figure how it would be easy to animate.

FUCK YOU LIMIT BREAKS ARE NOT MAGIC.

 

[Makoeyes987]

One could argue they could leap up back to the airship... I kid.

Okay damnit, how about bringing your umbrella to work and then not needing it and thus leaving it at work when you go out to lunch and then when you go home. (*is not letting this analogy go*)

And alright, they recognize Bahamut because its Bahamut. But Yuffie still calls his summon "my materia" so there's still implied ownership.

And fine, Cid almost getting it is kinda serious, but that's only 3 They still did pretty good.

And while they're all not as strong as Cloud, they clearly had to have gotten stronger since FFVII if they're doing all the shit they do without materia. I'm just...basing this off the way its shown in AC.

But that's never stated so we have no reason to assume it as such. It makes more sense for Kadaj to have fucked with the materia to make the summon's power more potent.

But it is their summon, and it never says its corrupted. I think its just the way it looks! I mean, really... maybe they got it after FFVII, thus thats the reason we don't see it. Make sense?

Black Materia is not normal materia in any sense, using it as the standard for all materia and it's requirements for use is a bit of a stretch man.

But it's still materia. It works the same as regular materia but on a massive scale. It's like huge materia and the Zirconaide materia.

Except it does, people break oaths when they have to. IT'S ALSO AN EXPLANATION THAT IS COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY AND SPARKED THIS ARGUMENT.

....I'm out of ammo man. I'm at the "cba" stage now I don't know what else I can say, I mean...they didn't swear never ever ever use materia. But I'd be repeating myself. I'm seriously tapped out. You drained MY mp.

Except some of those limit breaks need charging too, and cast times are quite short. They both have disadvantages. Even Omnislash and Omnislash 1.5 need charging, as does blade beam, and a few others from the other characters. Only the weaker ones are really fast.


If she really was using spirit energy, they would have shown some sort of representation of them, rather than just presenting them as normal fighting techniques. All of Cloud's have representation, as does Barret's and Red's, why would they neglect Tifa's? I think her's are the exception, sure some of them might use energy, but it can't be the same for beat rush and others.

True, but even the weaker ones are extremely powerful.

And just because you can't see Tifa's spirit energy rising out of her body doesn't mean she's not using a limit break. When Cid, Yuffie, Barret and the others use them, you didn't all see them glow. The only ones who glow when doing that are Cloud, and Zack in CC. It's probably to show just how powerful they are.

Doesn't make any sense to me. No indication of investment of energy, nor is there a resounding unbelievable effect from them. You may be right, but I just don't buy it.

Well those are limit breaks she's doing and limit breaks take spirit energy. Maybe she isn't expending as much to cause her to glow blue but its happening.

FUCK YOU LIMIT BREAKS ARE NOT MAGIC.

Goddamn you, I know but I was just saying its not that they were lazy!

Seriously you all burned me out, I don't know what else I can say. XD

If you want to believe they left it in a rush, okay. Cool. I won't argue it anymore

 

[Max Payne]

And alright, they recognize Bahamut because its Bahamut. But Yuffie still calls his summon "my materia" so there's still implied ownership.

They were the only ones who owned all Bahaumt materia. Maybe the materia evolved through contact with so much energy being channeled through Kadaj or some shit, I don't know, but it's more than just a cosmetic change.

And while they're all not as strong as Cloud, they clearly had to have gotten stronger since FFVII if they're doing all the shit they do without materia. I'm just...basing this off the way its shown in AC.

I honestly think they were always freaks tbh.

But it is their summon, and it never says its corrupted. I think its just the way it looks! I mean, really... maybe they got it after FFVII, thus thats the reason we don't see it. Make sense?

Just because they don't say so doesn't mean it didn't happen, I just don't like this random monster just popping up that we had no idea they had, and there's no reason to assume they gathered anymore materia after their little war with Sefiros.

But it's still materia. It works the same as regular materia but on a massive scale. It's like huge materia and the Zirconaide materia.

They made it pretty clear that Black materia was much more unique than normal materia.

....I'm out of ammo man. I'm at the "cba" stage now I don't know what else I can say, I mean...they didn't swear never ever ever use materia. But I'd be repeating myself. I'm seriously tapped out. You drained MY mp.

You'd never break an oath to save a life important to you?

True, but even the weaker ones are extremely powerful.

And just because you can't see Tifa's spirit energy rising out of her body doesn't mean she's not using a limit break. When Cid, Yuffie, Barret and the others use them, you didn't all see them glow. The only ones who glow when doing that are Cloud, and Zack in CC. It's probably to show just how powerful they are.

When did Yuffie use a limit in AC? Same for Cid, I don't recall them using anything that resembled a limit in AC.

Also, Barret's gun glowed green Red did too

Well those are limit breaks she's doing and limit breaks take spirit energy. Maybe she isn't expending as much to cause her to glow blue but its happening.

I don't see why she would when she's using pretty standard techniques imo.

Goddamn you, I know but I was just saying its not that they were lazy!

WHEN DID YOU START DEVELOPING FOR SE?

Also, I wouldn't maybe not lazy, probably time restraints and difficulty animating so much shit at once on screen.

Seriously you all burned me out, I don't know what else I can say. XD

If you want to believe they left it in a rush, okay. Cool. I won't argue it anymore

How about I OWN YOU KID. YEAH HOMIE.