Did Hojo manipulate Lucrecia? [split from Repository of Debunked Rumors]

[Eerie]

iIt's true that there are a lot of gaps, and I don't want to be all 'you must follow my headcanons or else, but the extent of the Lu hatred puzzles me, given that other chharacters can be redeemed from things like actual murder.

Just to say, I don't hate her. I have literally zero feeling, in good or bad way, towards her character because I never played DoC nor watched it over at YT - I do intend to *try* to play it in Ever Crisis, so that's why I'm not watching it, to leave some surprises.

From the OG only and her rather short apparition, I would say that whatever she did, in her own opinion, doesn't count as atonement. She just did the things she deemed as 'right', but I don't think she did them in order to be able to live with her sins (I feel like I'm not very clear here...). She seems to isolate herself from the world - it is the form of atonement she has chosen, but I felt strongly in the OG that if she could she'd rather be dead. I also don't feel like she's chosen to face it because in the end she runs away from other people's gazes and judgements', including Vincent's.

Unlike other villains who redeemed themselves more gracefully (or even our main characters in Avalanche), Lucrecia suffered from excessive self-blame. I think a part of it is a fatal flaw in her character, and a part of it is that her losses are far more personal and a direct outcome of her increasingly self-reinforcing shitty choices.

I think this is true, it's literally what I just wrote - I wanted to go back to what I wrote earlier to check with this current answer and this caught my eyes.

 

[Clement Rage]

That's the interesting part. Vincent made fairly similar choices (sealing self away after becoming monster, not interfering in experiment, losing a love as a direct result, excessive self blame) Cloud does the same thing for similar reasons in AC, including taking himself away from people he loves, marinating in his perceived failures that he had little control over. So where does the difference come in?

 

[Mobius Stripper]

So where does the difference come in?

1) Gender - When it comes to fiction, men's flaws are often women's crimes, pure and simple.
2) Depth of characterization - she doesn't have the same depth as Vincent and Cloud. We see her making bad choices but aren't given much in the way of context for them. Therefore, she becomes vulnerable to the fundamental attribution bias, where her choices are attributed to her character rather than her circumstances.
3) Identification - it actually seems to me that most of the people calling Lucrecia a "bitch" are women who project themselves onto her and think they would make better choices. My personal favorite recurring sentiment: "How could she dump/reject Vincent??? He's HOT."

This, of course, is a shit-for-brains take, for reasons I probably don't need to elaborate on but will anyway:

• Hot is maybe not the sole criterion for a relationship.
• A woman with a PhD might be more interested in a peer she can discuss her work with than she is in "hot."
• You can't prove that Hojo wasn't fine in his heyday.
• Vincent was a literal contract killer. This may or may not have been an issue for her, but he was not an ideal mate either, no matter how many times he went down on her.
• Vincent's "pure and genuine love" for her might have veered closer to uncomfortable clinginess and obsession. Anyone who has been on the receiving end of that can tell you it ain't cute.
• Now I will concede she could have handled it better, but having committed involuntary manslaughter against a guy's dad is actually a really fucking great reason NOT to be romantically involved with him. Even if he says it's okay! There's NOTHING okay about it! That relationship will simply NEVER be normal and healthy!

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Also... "probably was emotionally pressured into a relationship with a guy when she's not in an emotionally stable state". I don't think *anyone* wants to think that could happen to them with someone else... and yet we *know* it happens all the time.

The trouble with DoC is that it's asking the audience to... essentially put themselves in the shoes of a (probably) emotionally abused woman. And *no one* wants to do that. You see people trying to make Lucrecia out to be not as abused so she's *easier* to identify with if anything. Rather than taking the situation as it's presented.

 

[Mobius Stripper]

I think the problem with DoC is that it NEVER asks the viewer to put themselves in her shoes. She solely serves as a vehicle for Vincent's story. Everything is through his eyes. While he loves her, he doesn't seem to have a ton of insight into her. Her actions frustrate and baffle him, and therefore they frustrate and baffle the viewer.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Eeeh... don't know about that. A good chunk of the flashbacks happen *after* Vincent is shot... and they're of Lucrecia explaining her entire thought-process for why she was doing what she was doing to the player. And also of her being yelled at by Hojo. It's a *huge* plot-point that Shelke is getting Lucrecia's emotions/feelings/memories in addition to the data she's finding. And the last scene between...essentially Vincent and Lucrecia's emotions is of her explaining what she wants to him.

The trouble is that Lucrecia's thought-process for it all is "i'm sorry, and this is all i can do to fix this" and coming across like... an emotional woman who is just working off her feelings... and failing to emotially cope with the abuse hurled at her by Hojo. Lucreica... explains herself *a lot* to the player... it's just not the kind of feeling that people would view positively.

 

[kathy202]

So where does the difference come in?

I think it's everything Mobius said, and that Lucrecia's choice of experimenting on her child is much harder to forgive than anything we've seen Vincent or Cloud consciously doing.

I think I have a bit of trouble seeing her as an emotionally pressured or abused victim, probably because we don't get to see how Hojo convinced her to 1. Marry him 2. Experiment on their child. Granted she was not in the clearest state of mind, but going from "I am worthless and can't face the son of a mentor whose death I feel responsible for" to "I am worthless and marrying Hojo then doing whatever he suggests with our child is my only option" takes some imagination.

Though it's definitely not difficult to see Hojo as abusive and manipulative. He might not have determined her choices 100%, but he certainly influenced them, and her emotional state didn't help. I don't think she's guiltless in the whole thing though. The sad thing is, if she had no morals like Hojo, she would have suffered much less, and might even be less hated. Because hey, here's a badass woman, aka Sephiroth's mom, who has no morals and does not look ugly like Hojo.

 

[Mobius Stripper]

I think I have a bit of trouble seeing her as an emotionally pressured or abused victim, probably because we don't get to see how Hojo convinced her to 1. Marry him 2. Experiment on their child. Granted she was not in the clearest state of mind, but going from "I am worthless and can't face the son of a mentor whose death I feel responsible for" to "I am worthless and marrying Hojo then doing whatever he suggests with our child is my only option" takes some imagination.

I always got a bit of a kick out of how in DoC, her choice to get with Hojo is portrayed like a total surrender. It has a very "okay, but only if we turn the lights off" vibe. The implication seems to be that she's just checked out by that point.

 

[kathy202]

For the longest time, I thought the YouTube uploader I was watching left out parts of the game lol... Her sudden switching to Hojo felt that weird.

I suppose the biggest hint of potential manipulation/abuse is Vincent's reaction. Until now, I've always found his self-blame excessive and wondered if he was some sort of narcissist who expected himself to be the hero in Lucrecia's story. Because why would you blame yourself for the actions of another well-informed adult?

So, let's assume he's not such a narcissist. There's not much evidence that says that he is I think. Then his guilt can be explained by him seeing clear signs of Hojo's abuse, but rationalizing it away and doing nothing about it. Like witnessing someone you love enter an abusive relationship, and not even trying to help her out of it.

I never got the vibe that that was what happened, but working backwards from the "Lucrecia was abused" argument, I think it's plausible.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

My thing has always been... Vincent is never *shocked* that Lucrecia is pregnant when she tells him she wants to experiment on his kid. He *knows* she's pregnant already. He's the one who brings up that she's pregnant even. Now how he figured that out... who knows... but... he *was* her boyfriend at one point... there are scenes of them being *very* flirty together with no one else around...

And then there's how Hojo acts like he's been asking Lucrecia to marry him for a while and she's always turned him down before now... So... it at least *feels* like she didn't cave to marrying Hojo at first...

And then of course there's the OG... which has Vincent being as shocked as everyone else that Sephiroth is Hojo's kid... So it's like... who else would Lucrecia being having a kid with in Nibelheim for Vincent to be shocked Sephiroth's father is *actually* Hojo?

Trying to match up what we know of the OG with DoC and now Remake's Hojo... I kinda wonder if Vincent thinks he and Lucrecia had a kid together, and then Lucrecia left him and married Hojo, and then used Vincent's kid for an experiment... While saying Vincent doesn't have right to get involved to Vincent's face.

The sad thing is, if she had no morals like Hojo, she would have suffered much less, and might even be less hated. Because hey, here's a badass woman, aka Sephiroth's mom, who has no morals and does not look ugly like Hojo.

This is... more or less what happened with Gillian... Angeal's mom and one of the scientists working on Project G. In fact... she's the one the project was named after!

Reading up on her in the CC Ultimanias and in CC NPC's dialouges... Gillian was *much* more active in the Jenova Project than Lucrecia was. To the point she's refereed to like Hojo and Hollander are and is said to have experimented on *herself*. And Angeal while she was pregnant with him. Everything points to her not having any emotionall issues while doing so either... at least not until Angeal was born. Which is when she kinda goes Lucrecia's route. Only she gets a lot more oppertunities to *sort of* fix it. She leaves Shinra and marries a... decent guy... and just raises Angeal like a normal kid (helps that Shinra thought he was a failure). Also like Lucrecia... she tries (and succeeds) at killing herself out of guilt. Only Gillian all but does it in front of her son who is... devastated by it. And pretty much blames *himself* for her death which does him no favors in the long run.

But no one seems to hold that she was willingly part of Project G until right at very end against her... that kinda gets lost in the fact that she succeeded in getting her kid away from Shinra and then later killed herself. She and Lucrecia are very much... inversions of each other when it comes to motive and how things turn out for them in the long run.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

"I kinda wonder if Vincent thinks he and Lucrecia had a kid together, and then Lucrecia left him and married Hojo, and then used Vincent's kid for an experiment... While saying Vincent doesn't have right to get involved to Vincent's face."

If that were what "actually" happened, it would make her an even worse person than she already is.

 

[Eerie]

That's the interesting part. Vincent made fairly similar choices (sealing self away after becoming monster, not interfering in experiment, losing a love as a direct result, excessive self blame) Cloud does the same thing for similar reasons in AC, including taking himself away from people he loves, marinating in his perceived failures that he had little control over. So where does the difference come in?

Cloud is pushed by Tifa to face his problem, so despite his flaws, he actually faces it. At the time of ACC, Vincent states to Cloud that he has never tried to atone, however players remember that at least, he did join the team to fight Sephiroth, and that he does again in ACC. Fans would assume, given ACC, that he is set up for fighting - and then DoC happens. I think I read he does disappear at the end, right? However, with that girl waiting for him to show up at 7th Heaven, it does feel that he will be back. It would feel very different for players if she went after him, but her deciding to wait for him at the bar leaves a stronger, hopeful impression. Again, that's my impression from someone who has not played the game, so my knowledge about it is very patchy.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The last scene of Vincent in DoC is him in Lucrecia's cave telling her that Chaos and Omega have returned to the Planet where they belong. And thanking her for everything that she did for him and saying she's the reason he's still alive.

Then Vincent leaves Lucrecia's cave and goes out to meet Shelke who is waiting outside for him. She tells him "everyone" is waiting for them and that she doesn't know why they had her go up to get him.

So yeah, DoC ends with Vincent having facing himself, settling things with Lcurecia and going back to join everyone else.

 

[Clement Rage]

My understanding of what happened with Lucrecia goes something like this.

Spoiler: length

1. Laughed at for entirely correct thesis because she's such a genius that she's a generation ahead of her time.
2. Works hard to prove thesis and restore her credibility, Grimoire helps.
3. Grimoire is killed, she shelves her one chance for vindication as it's too dangerous to continue (an under-rated moment, that takes a lot of strength of character.)
4. Is assigned Vincent as bodyguard, after initial aversion they warm to each other.
5. Eventually ends relationship. Vincent is still in love, but accept's Lu's decision. Unfortunately, she's still his assignment, so they have to constantly be together.
6. Lucrecia gets closer to Hojo, for whatever reason (Personally I think it's more interesting if they genuinely have a relationship, with no coercion or manipulation)
7. Vincent, watching, is uncomfortable but determined to respect Lu's decision. He decides A) I'm her ex now, I don't get to control her life B) I can't trust my own judgement, because I'm still in love. In virtually any other circumstances, that would be the correct choice. He doesn't want to be an abusive controlling ex (as her bodyguard, that would be very bad), so he keeps reminding himself 'I don't get a say in this. If it's what my love wants, it's not my place to interfere.'
8. Vincent slips up on learning about the experiment. He queries Lucrecia. His concern is not for ethics or the child , just Lucrecia's welfare. Unfortunately, his phrasing smacks right into Lucrecia's sorest point, which is having her scientific judgement questioned due to all the abuse she took over her thesis. So she (actually correctly) calls him out on making claims on her that he has no right to and the fact that she is so much more qualified to assess potential risks than he is.
9. Lucrecia has some kind of health issue due to experiment. Vincent confronts Hojo, is shot and experimented on, left for dead.
10. Lucrecia dusts off her Chaos theory, uses it to save Vincent's life. Gets away with it because Hojo mistakes her work as motivated by finally proving her thesis, which he finds hilarious.
11. Vincent is saved, but Lucrecia's health issues get worse. She leaves before he wakes up, leaving a copy of her records explaining what happened.
12. Vincent wakes up. He doesn't find the records,by bad luck or Hojo interference. He thinks Lucrecia is dead and it's his fault for not interfering. When Hojo locks him up he thinks he deserves it and goes along with it.

For me this is honestly excellent writing. Unfortunately it's also a lot to take in.

Don't think Vincent believes he has a kid,because if he did he would not be so passive.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Of course, what Vincent should have done is inform his superior that his mission was compromised, and then he would have been pulled and another Turk sent to replace him. But then we wouldn't have this story. I agree that it's excellent writing.

 

[Mobius Stripper]

What's a little grossly unprofessional behavior when you're in love?

 

[kathy202]

I just re-watched some Lucrecia's cutscenes in DoC, and aside from the almost unbearable voice acting and body language, I can't find any reason to hate her even if she has made some of the worst mistakes ever.

That she was able to save Vincent while being mocked by Hojo, and after losing her son, and dealing with a deteriorating health... It takes genius and mental fortitude, and perhaps for once, moral conviction.

I would never have thought of Beatrix as an equivalent comparison before reading this thread because the vibe is so different, but yeah, I see the similarities now. I think I prefer Lucrecia's writing because we see more of her struggle.

Would be nice to see more of such writing. Sometimes I feel that the morality of characters in the series can be too black and white. Maybe that's why she's not as well liked too. Fans of the series aren't used to characters like that so it actually takes effort to like her. If I hadn't stumbled upon this thread I wouldn't have seen her strengths either.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I agree that the morality of the characters can sometimes be too black and white - more so in the Compilation than in the OG. I think this is the result of fan pressure. A preponderance of fans like their heroes to be clearly good (hurrah!) and their villains to be clearly bad (boo hiss) and their women to be young and gorgeous. It's a bit like a pantomime sometimes.

 

[Odysseus]

For me this is honestly excellent writing. Unfortunately it's also a lot to take in.

Perhaps part of the issue is that this story is only ever told in brief snippets, scattered around both the original game and Dirge, and not even strictly told in chronological order. It leaves a lot to the player to fill in the blanks as well. It really is a compelling little story, just not the most well presented. Guess we can hope the remake goes into the whole thing a bit more.

I do recall Vincent having a line where he directly states he's against human experimentation, so I feel like there's some moral objection on his part.

 

[Clement Rage]

It's the Turks, a highly inappropriate crush is practically a job requirement.

It's kinda like XIII, where all the leads have a 'surface' characterisation and a 'who they really are' characterisation, which got a bunch of criticism based on the 'surface' characterisation.

But, to be a commercial success, all these games have to function for people that don't dive as deep as we do, because they are, for instance, twelve, or just play the game once and move on. (I would like to stress that I am by no means taking a jab at said people, everyone lives their own life).

I'm not sure remake writing would handle this well, some of it is superb, but some of it is prone to removing necessary ambiguity. You can take more risks in a compilation side story than a flagship title.

Edit: Angeal and Genesis are plenty complicated, but the 'surface' characterisation is ''honour guy' and '''loveless guy'.

Edit 2: The thing about the story is, it's a mystery that Vincent slowly uncovers. It wouldn't work with a straightforward presentation, any more than crime fiction works if you explain the plot on page 1.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

It's the Turks, a highly inappropriate crush is practically a job requirement.

For a bunch of people who *should* be the most emotionless people in Shinra, the Turks are repeatedly shown as having the most morals out of almost everyone at Shinra (even if their morals *are* very complex). They *get* people having emotional ties to other people and don't just insist they aren't important just for kicks. In that respect, Vincent fits right in with them.

 

[LNK]

Guess we can hope the remake goes into the whole thing a bit more.

My guess is a Vincent DLC will cover that stuff from DoC

 

[Clement Rage]

The thing is, they never do anything with those morals. They moan a lot amongst themselves, but don't, for instance, stop kidnapping people. They're caught between two conflicting characterisations, where they have to be the people most against Shinra scumminess while also being the primary enablers of said scumminess.

Edit: This also applies to Vincent, who saw the JENOVA project was a bad idea but didn't do anything to stop it.

 

[Mobius Stripper]

This also applies to Vincent, who saw the JENOVA project was a bad idea but didn't do anything to stop it.

I'm curious: what do you think he could have done?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

BC is... really key to the Turk's characterization (unfortunately)... Where they *do* do something about it... specificly for their boss and his kid (who is the figurehead of Avalanche). This ends up with being enemies of the company for a good eight months, which is when they go after Zack and Cloud with the goal of making sure they *don't* get killed by the military.

BC ends with *most* of the Turk's getting to fake their deaths after saving Midgar from being destroyed (again), excetp for Tseng, Reno and Rude. Who as of the time of FFVII are on *very* thin ice with Heiddegar and Scarlet. They really can't afford to be seen as *not* doing what Shinra want them to.. at least until Rufus solidifies his hold on the company.

However, we *do* see them not do what Shinra would really like them to do in FFVII. The Turks are more than fine to *not* stop Avalanche (and even work with them at one point). So they have always had this characterization of not doing what Shinra wants them do when they don't think it's a great idea. Unfortunetly, they *do* care about each other when it really gets down to it, and that means Shinra *does* have a way to pressure them.

The thing with the Turks is... they are *not* "heroes". They are self-serving opportunists. And people forget trying to stand up to Shinra is usually suicide. It *owns* the world. The Turks aren't willing to start going against Shinra until people they personally care about are threatened by it. Vincent not speaking up about things until someone he cares about is involved... fits both him and the Turk's as a whole.