Did Hojo manipulate Lucrecia? [split from Repository of Debunked Rumors]

[Obsidian Fire]

Who the heck cares what it looks like? It's been dead for over 2,000 years under (in?) a glacier. IRL glacier mummies don't look particularly human either.

The more important thing is what its DNA look like... which... shapeshifting alien that can mess around with DNA... that can read people's minds... And make them see stuff that isn't actually there like it's actually ther. Making herself look like something else is kinda part of Jenova's MO (or making people *think* they saw something like what they wanted see) and we know thanks to other Compilation material that she wasn't actually *dead*.

She's the Thing in a very literal sense. Only she's the Thing in a version of the Thing where no one finds out the Thing is... still alive... or even an alien for 15-20 years after bringing it back to the lab. And pieces of the Thing have gone to several laboratories where the "been approved for human trials" stage has been approved...

 

[Makoeyes987]

And did Blair wanna inject himself, other researchers or the staff at that 1970s Antarctic research base with The Thing's clearly horrifying alien cells? At least he kept his scientific curiosity confined to extracellular experiments not involving live subjects or animals as specimens.

He at least made The Thing work for it's chance to infiltrate and hybridize with humanity. Shinra gave Jenova a baby. Blair didn't take a needle, fill it with that Thing's blood, find some poor bloke and jab him with it "for science!"

Shinra scientists are mad. And that goes from Gast, who carries some semblance of humanity, albeit clouded by ambition, to Hojo who's batcrap crazy and can't stop himself from breaking ethics on the hour.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Fandom does this sometimes, where sins are weighted based on how relatable they are, rather than the gravity of the crime. So Tseng in the remake can hand Aerith over to Hojo to be forcibly bred, but he can no longer hit her, because that would be unforgiveable.

I'm mostly on Lic's team here I think. In order to make a judgment, we need context that we don't have, we can't judge character decisions based on information that the characters couldn't possibly know when they were making those decisions. At the time of her marriage, the only thing we know of that Hojo has done to set off alarm bells is be a bit rude (so you've come to your senses and chosen me).

You are right that this is a thing fandom does, but picking the wrong dude isn't even one of the things that should be held against Lucrecia. That's a perfectly normal mistake to make that really only should have affected her, and is not to be lumped in with the actually awful stuff she did.

What human looks like this?

View attachment 10716

Anybody who thinks putting cells of that in their body needs to have their doctorate revoked, and any other degrees and/or certifications cancelled.

According to that one doctor in TKAA, the arm that came off that thing was a human woman's arm in addition to being Jenova's arm. No one alive except Cetra knew what a Cetra was supposed to look like, so this humanoid thing with some fantastical attributes that could make it pass for a magical ancestor of humanity -- and it has human DNA? I can see how the mistake was made.

It's not like anyone was expecting to find a fucking alien.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I read somewhere the theory that the Jenova in the tube in Nibelheim is actually Jenova who has shapeshifted into a Cetra, or perhaps was in the process of shifting, which would account for her humanoid appearance.

It's an ancient cliche in science fiction that the monster is made evil by its parents, when they prioritise their own needs over that of their child. Dr Frankenstein wanted to see if he could create a man; he didn't give any thought to what that "man's" rights and needs would be or how it would live once he'd brought it to life. Hojo and Lucrecia acted in exactly the same way. Of course experimental treatments may be justifed when it's a question of saving the baby's life; it's a difficult ethical area. But fetus Sephiroth's life wasn't in danger. He didn't need any experimental treatment. He needed two parents who loved him and put his needs first.

(As an aside which nobody has to read, I worry about the fate of children conceived and born through extreme methods, whose parents spent tens if not thousand of dollars to bring them into the world because they want a child so badly. Most parents have more or less of a tendency to feel they own their child; most parents have an image in their mind of the kind of child they want. When you've invested so much, what happens when the kid turned out to be disappointment? When do human beings become commodities?)

Anyhow: Lucrecia doesn't get any special allowances made for her because she's the woman, because she's the mother and not the father. The duty she owes to her baby isn't more or less than the duty owed by Hojo, its father: they are equally to blame. Both did it out of curiosity and to advance their careers, not to save its life or for some other child-centred reason. Lucrecia may have told herself she was doing it to help humanity, but she's shown to be a character who is a) extremely ambitious, and b) doesn't know their own mind.

I'm not even sure that Lucrecia was ever sorry specifically for using her baby as a lab experiment. Does she say that? Or is she sorry for choosing Hojo over Vincent, sorry that Hojo - who turned out to be so cruel - is the father of her baby? Sorry that she never got to hold him? Well, at least she is sorry. Hojo's not sorry, that's the difference between them.

PS

picking the wrong dude isn't even one of the things that should be held against Lucrecia. That's a perfectly normal mistake to make that really only should have affected her,

Poor Lucrecia. The choice of men the game offers hers is like being offered the choice to either have a rock thrown at your head or lie face down in the cold mud.

 

[ForceStealer]

I never thought she was saying sorry for not *picking* Vincent. She was sorry that everything that went down resulted in him being shot and being turned into an ageless abomination packed full of monsters

As for Sephiroth, yeah I'm sure she laments that her partner is evil and that she didn't get to interact with her son. But I dunno whether she regrets the procedure itself, she never says that in so many words. The implied attempted suicide could be interpreted to be guilt for the project itself, but any number of things could have caused that.

 

[Clement Rage]

Who says Cetra necessarily look human? Don't forget the purple things.

[/quote]
One day, he showed up here, looking real distressed.
He was mumbling something about Jenova not being an Ancient and that he'd done a terrible thing... [/quote]

That's interesting, isn't it? What he was distressed about appears to not be that human experimentation is wrong, but that Jenova wasn't an Ancient.

Lucrecia gave up on her life's work, The Planet's Pulse, because the research killed someone. This research was the single most important thing in her life, and she gave it up purely for ethical reasons.

She did experiment on her son, but with no ill intent, and did not consider him solely an experiment, given how much she wanted to take better care of him and fought to get her son back. She actually cared for him, she didn't want to hold him to use him as a hot water bottle or something.

With regard to Sephiroth, it is worth remembering that she never finds out what happened to him. She asks in the OG, and Vincent lies to her about it.(well, he says he's dead, which is technically true, but you know what I mean).

She also fights hard to save Vincent's life through illness after he's turned into a catatonic wreck by Hojo, again purely for ethical reasons. 'I hurt you so so much, but I'm so happy you survived.'

I love when the Turks criticise the Science Depts lack of ethics. 'If only they didn't do such horrible things to the people we kidnap for them for that specific purpose.'

 

[Makoeyes987]

No he wasn't just distressed over the fact Jenova wasn't a Cetra.

Bugha says, "He was mumbling something about Jenova not being an Ancient and that he'd done a terrible thing."

There were two things Gast was distressed over. If it were just the fact Jenova was misidentified, there wouldn't be the additional thought of "And I have done a terrible thing."

His misidentification of Jenova led him to do terrible things.

She did experiment on her son, but with no ill intent, and did not consider him solely an experiment, given how much she wanted to take better care of him and fought to get her son back. She actually cared for him, she didn't want to hold him to use him as a hot water bottle or something.

Ill will is irrelevant. Gast held that very same logic and look at the mistake his myopathy created. However, Lucrecia carries the added guilt through the blatant disregard for the future of her child.

"Am I sure? Am I sure!? If this only concerns me, then yes I am sure!"

That damning line right there is where she condemned Sephiroth to his fate as a child of Jenova, not just humanity. It didn't just concern her. She made her choice and Sephiroth's choice for him. She was in full agreement with Hojo that as scientists, they knew what they were doing and she was going to make the choice to bring her baby into the experiment.

She may have felt motherly attachment to him at birth, but she sure didn't care when he was just a Sample.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Err... we went over that line in context already.

It's not about if the experiment involves people other than Lucrecia. It's about how Vincent isn't her boyfriend anymore and that she thinks he's too interested in her business now that they've broken up. IE: Lucrecia is reminded Vincent that they don't get to make decisions about her *together* anymore.

And she's also already pregnant and we know the dad is Hojo. So she's likley married by that point to Hojo too... She would be discussing this with him instead of her bodyguard who she's not in a relationship with anymore.

 

[Roundhouse]

I'm genuinely interested to see how remake tackles all of this.

 

[Clement Rage]

"He was mumbling something about Jenova not being an Ancient and that he'd done a terrible thing."

Ambiguous for me.

He could easily mean 'Jenova isn't a Cetra and (therefore) he had done a terrible thing by making an alien hybrid instead of a Cetra like he wanted.' If it was purely a 'what have I done, what does it matter if Jen was a Cetra or not, either way, he's still endangerng a baby with gene splicing.

Another potential interesting piece of context: In the modern era, one of the Turks primary duties is securing specimens for the Science Dept. If that's still the case in Vincent's day, then he's a massive hypocrite to object now to human experimentation. I'm not saying that's true, but it's at least possible.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ambiguous for me.

What ambiguity? It literally says he was distraught over misidentifying Jenova as a Cetra and a terrible thing he had done. The grammar and syntax of the sentence has two separate subjects Gast is upset about. Jenova's misidentification, and an unsaid "terrible thing" he had done while working on the Jenova Project.

The time that conversation would have happened would be after he left the Jenova Project, which was after Sephiroth was conceived and experimented on. This isn't an ambiguous or inconclusive situation. Why would Gast redundantly say he was distraught over misidentifying Jenova and he did a terrible thing of misidentifying Jenova? That's absurd narrative redundancy. Clearly there was something else he felt bad about which stemmed from the research he did from misidentifying Jenova.

Err... we went over that line in context already.

It's not about if the experiment involves people other than Lucrecia. It's about how Vincent isn't her boyfriend anymore and that she thinks he's too interested in her business now that they've broken up. IE: Lucrecia is reminded Vincent that they don't get to make decisions about her *together* anymore.

And she's also already pregnant and we know the dad is Hojo. So she's likley married by that point to Hojo too... She would be discussing this with him instead of her bodyguard who she's not in a relationship with anymore.

Even if that's her feelings behind the line she stated, it's still not true and speaks to her carelessness as a Mother. She should have thought of her child. Her intention is irrelevant. Lucrecia's complete lack of consideration for the future of Sephiroth and being willing to use him as an experiment is her "sin." It's not justifiable.

And Vincent was never Lucrecia's boyfriend. They flirted, she liked him and he liked her. But they never became an actual hard couple, and she rejected him. He proposed to her and she said no.

 

[JBedford]

What ambiguity? It literally says he was distraught over misidentifying Jenova as a Cetra and a terrible thing he had done. The grammar and syntax of the sentence has two separate subjects Gast is upset about. Jenova's misidentification, and an unsaid "terrible thing" he had done while working on the Jenova Project.

Gast mumbled about Jenova not being an Ancient, and he mumbled about having done a terrible thing.

The terrible thing he did was human experimentation with the genes of an evil space alien.

It doesn't indicate that that he thinks the human experimentation he did would have been terrible had Jenova actually been a Cetra.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Gast mumbled about Jenova not being an Ancient, and he mumbled about having done a terrible thing.

The terrible thing he did was human experimentation with the genes of an evil space alien.

It doesn't indicate that that he thinks the human experimentation he did would have been terrible had Jenova actually been a Cetra.

See, but that seems like such a purposeful and complete projection of malefic intent towards Gast's character right there.

Let's break down the scenario of his story.

We have the situation that Gast is distraught. He has run away from Shinra (which is an action punishable by death) and is now in a bar on a separate continent far away from Shinra HQ. He states he is distraught over misidentifying Jenova as a Cetra, and a terrible thing he had done. The terrible thing is, as you said, the human experiment to create Sephiroth using it's cells.

The fact he thinks those experiments were such a horrible thing that would drive him to risk his life in quitting Shinra and show up at a bar to numb his feelings with alcohol strongly implies he's had a crisis of conscience, of sorts. Clearly the situation of mistaking his whole body of research and then doing such deeds made him feel horrible.

Whether he would still feel that way or not, had he not discovered the truth is a hypothetical that doesn't change the depiction of his character here in the text. This was a turning point for him where he had a reflection on his responsibility towards his research on Jenova and became disgusted over it. That's significant because it puts a target on his back and he dies for it. He dies trying to keep his wife and kid from becoming experiment samples. The narrative is clearly trying to convey that Gast had tried to run away and reject his mistaken work but unfortunately it was too late. He opened Pandora's Box. That mistake and choice to go along with Shinra for his research cost him, but he did realize he made a mistake and did a horrible thing.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

While we know from the Ultimanias and such that Gast began to feel guilty about the human experimentation aspect of things, Bugah's line alone is not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be, Mako. I'm uncharacteristically agreeing with Clement here that the line about what Drunk Gast was mumbling could reasonably be taken to mean that when Gast realized the creature wasn't human, it was this particular fact that made him think what he had done was grotesque.

Now, I shall return to form.

I decided we need whatever Reeve says in Dirge's Japanese script to settle the matter of what he said concerning what he knew of Deepground and when. Should have done this from the start.

In Japanese, he says 都市計画責任者だった私はディープグラウンド、触れるべからずとして、その存在のみ、聞かされていました -- "As the person in charge of city planning, I was told only that Deepground existed, and to leave it alone."

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Whatever he thought was down there, he should have known it was something bad and should have made it a priority for the WRO.
I can accept that he couldn't do this because the area was inaccessible, but as far as I know, he didn't try to do it, so the inaccessibility issue is moot.
My real point is that Reeve kinda sucks at his jobs.
I am very attached to my mental version of Reeve: fundamentally a decent guy, only ever really wanted to build things, got sucked into the world of materialism and ambition that is Shinra, Inc., lost sight of his values, tried to make the system work for him, got promoted for being good at saying "Yes Mr Shinra", tried to undermine Avalanche from within but surprisingly finds his own inner good person reawakened by hanging out with them - steps out of the Meteor crisis into a world that needs a leader and claims the role, is good at his own PR ("Did I tel you I'm a hero of the Jenova War?" but fundamentally just isn't very good at seeing the big picture or managing people, veers between meek and shouty. Would rather be a Gepetto in a little workshop somewhere, really.

 

[Makoeyes987]

While we know from the Ultimanias and such that Gast began to feel guilty about the human experimentation aspect of things, Bugah's line alone is not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be, Mako. I'm uncharacteristically agreeing with Clement here that the line about what Drunk Gast was mumbling could reasonably be taken to mean that when Gast realized the creature wasn't human, it was this particular fact that made him think what he had done was grotesque.

Now, I shall return to form.

I decided we need whatever Reeve says in Dirge's Japanese script to settle the matter of what he said concerning what he knew of Deepground and when. Should have done this from the start.

In Japanese, he says 都市計画責任者だった私はディープグラウンド、触れるべからずとして、その存在のみ、聞かされていました -- "As the person in charge of city planning, I was told only that Deepground existed, and to leave it alone."

I guess my knowledge of said commentary from Ultimanias and the line's structure makes me biased or something because I don't see how it's that ambiguous, but okay. Just seems redundant to read it that way in the context of everything else he's done but we do know within the story that he does feel said guilt and all.

And that's interesting. So he knew of a thing called "Deepground" but it was something he didn't have awareness of. That makes sense. He wouldn't have clearance. It's not like he'd have any authority or reason to order around the Tsviets. Each of the executives aware of Deepground had a distinct reason for it.

Scarlet because she designed their weapons.

Heidegger because he's Public Security and would direct their operations.

Hojo because he's the head scientist and researcher for Shinra.

And President Shinra because they're his army.

So yeah, makes sense.

 

[Clement Rage]

This is where unknown context comes in. Was Gast talking about this while drowning his sorrows in a bar, or was he on his way to a scholarly discussion with Bugenhagen?

Vincent doesn't care about Sephiroth either, just Lucrecia.

I can accept that he couldn't do this because the area was inaccessible, but as far as I know, he didn't try to do it, so the inaccessibility issue is moot.

We don't know what he did or didn't do over the last three years, though.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, usually, but in this case, if he had tried to see what was down there over the last three years, he'd have mentioned it to Vincent. Since he didn't mention it, it is more reasonable to conclude that he didn't try than that he did try but didn't think the results of the effort worth mentioning.

And I agree with Bedford. Gast had plenty of time over the YEARS he was running the Jenova experiments to experience a moral awakening and realise it's wrong to use human beings as guinea pigs without their consent. Even if it results in human beings who are stronger, faster, smarter etc..., and even if the goal is the benefit of all humanity. In fact, the game makes it pretty clear that claiming "I did it for the good of all humanity" is as unacceptable an excuse for wrong-doing as "I was just following orders".

However, it was only when Gast discovered that Jenova was an alien that he realised he'd crossed his own moral line and fled from the consequences of his actions. A brave man would have stayed, to clean up his own mess - and not leave his daughter to do it.

I believe the game specifically wants us to draw two conclusions
- Gast's behaviour in the Jenova project from beginning to end is deserving of our censure
- despite this, Gast himself is still a fundamentally good person with many redeeming features
Ergo, good people can do bad things, and doing bad things doesn't automatically make someone a bad person. A simple enough concept, but one which our own society increasingly struggles to grasp.

 

[Makoeyes987]

However, it was only when Gast discovered that Jenova was an alien that he realised he'd crossed his own moral line and fled from the consequences of his actions. A brave man would have stayed, to clean up his own mess - and not leave his daughter to do it.

He'd more than likely be killed if he resisted their work. Shinra wouldn't let him go, that's why he jumped two continents and tried to vanish off the face of the Earth.

If Gast refused to work for Shinra, they would either strongly try to make him see the error of his perspective and continue or he'd be dealt with like all others who try to run. Shinra doesn't let company assets leave or resist.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Running away in fear of your life rather than staying to clear up the mess you made, leaving other people to die in your place, looks like cowardice to me. Gast had no problem deciding the lives of unborn children should be dedicated to his project, but was unwilling to give his own. What he ought to have done is destroy Jenova, by whatever means possible. Or at least try.

Interestingly, we don't get the impression that Hojo has hunted down Gast and Ifalna in order to kill either of them. He even implies that he's known where they were for a while but has waited for the 'new specimen' to be born. He doesn't kill Gast for fleeing Shinra, and the troopers don't seem to have any orders to do so. Gast is killed because he tries to prevent them taking his wife and child.

Scientists have left Shinra before. Buganhagen did, and is permitted to live his eccentric life in Cosmo Canyon unmolested despite it being a known centre of anti-Shinra activity. Nobody aside from Gast and Hojo know that Jenova is a space alien, so they wouldn't know why he'd left the company.

 

[Makoeyes987]

No one was gonna "die" in his place, lol. The only one dying would be him. Gast wouldn't be able to "clean up" anything either. It was done.

Shinra wanted a Cetra to make searching for mako easier. The corporation invested money and time to realize this endeavor. The creature had been discovered and experimented on. Nothing was stopping this.

Unless you're saying Gast should sabotage the project, destroy all the equipment, burn the research, kill his colleagues, and kill the resulting baby born (Sephiroth), the die had been cast. It was too late. Trying to stop it would make him be a target for elimination, just like trying to quit. Shinra doesn't play around and they've killed for far less.

Interestingly, we don't get the impression that Hojo has hunted down Gast and Ifalna in order to kill either of them. He even implies that he's known where they were for a while but has waited for the 'new specimen' to be born. He doesn't kill Gast for fleeing Shinra, and the troopers don't seem to have any orders to do so. Gast is killed because he tries to prevent them taking his wife and child.

Hojo wasn't there to "kill" them, ok. Just capture them. Kidnap them against their will and make them Shinra property forever. That's somehow better? That's such a... meaningless clarification. Their life was over either way.

No one leaves Shinra. Crisis Core, Before Crisis and multiple novellas make this clear. No one goes against Shinra and lives to tell the tale. Even if they let you retire, you're surveilled until you die.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Unless you're saying Gast should sabotage the project, destroy all the equipment, burn the research, kill his colleagues, and kill the resulting baby born (Sephiroth), the die had been cast.

Yes - sabotage the project
Yes - destroy all the equipment
Yes - burn the research

Kill his colleagues? No. Tell them Jenova is an alien and the whole project is a huge mistake? Yes. Kill Sephiroth - yes, probably. It's the same as the "would you kill baby Hitler?" question, but if Gast had killed one baby, countless lives would have been saved. This is what I mean when I say other people died in his place. People died because he ran away from the mess he created.

Bugenhagen used to work for Shinra and now he doesn't. In "Picturing the Past" Lilisa is a failed experiment that is allowed to return home into the care of her friend Joann. In the OG there's an ex-SOLDIER who runs a shop in Junon.

Gast could have
1. Quietly left the project without giving the real reason why. He'd have been under surveillance for the rest of his life, but if Bugenhagen is any indicator, he would have been allowed a lot of latitude
2. As a clever man, he could have figured out a way to destroy the entire project, maybe in a massive lab explosion. He might have been executed for negligence, but it would have been a price worth paying.

You argue that if Gast tried to leave Shinra he'd be tracked down and killed for it. My argument, which you have either misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented, was that when he left Shinra, he wasn't tracked down and killed for it. Hojo tracked him down, and it wasn't even Gast he tracked; he wanted Ifalna, and Gast was to come along as the accompanying spouse. No one shouted, "Shinra deserter, die!"

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yes - sabotage the project
Yes - destroy all the equipment
Yes - burn the research

Kill his colleagues? No. Tell them Jenova is an alien and the whole project is a huge mistake? Yes. Kill Sephiroth - yes, probably. It's the same as the "would you kill baby Hitler?" question, but if Gast had killed one baby, countless lives would have been saved. This is what I mean when I say other people died in his place. People died because he ran away from the mess he created.

lol I just imagine Hojo going, "Ohh... That sounds even more interesting!!! Hell yeah, let's go!"

Like, Lucrecia might see reason but that's also her baby. She wouldn't let him kill him. It's a Rosemary's Baby situation, lol. Like, at that point in the research, it's already simply too late. Gast simply realized it all too late. Jenova would live through Sephiroth, Shinra has the research and means to continue it without him. Hojo would definitely want to continue as would any other lesser researchers, assistants, and the company. And good luck killing Jenova, I don't even think burning it with high-test fuel would fully annihilate it.

I mean, I get what you're saying and it makes sense, I just don't begrudge the man not wanting to go out in a blaze of glory trying to burn down the entire Shinra Manor and ensure the work dies with him, lol

Bugenhagen used to work for Shinra and now he doesn't. In "Picturing the Past" Lilisa is a failed experiment that is allowed to return home into the care of her friend Joann. In the OG there's an ex-SOLDIER who runs a shop in Junon.

To be fair, Bugenhagen is old as dirt, and did his science work a long time ago. And Shinra probably hasn't forgotten about him, he's just no longer an asset worth anything to them given his age and his time at Shinra.

Gast could have
1. Quietly left the project without giving the real reason why. He'd have been under surveillance for the rest of his life, but if Bugenhagen is any indicator, he would have been allowed a lot of latitude
2. As a clever man, he could have figured out a way to destroy the entire project, maybe in a massive lab explosion. He might have been executed for negligence, but it would have been a price worth paying.

You argue that if Gast tried to leave Shinra he'd be tracked down and killed for it. My argument, which you have either misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented, was that when he left Shinra, he wasn't tracked down and killed for it. Hojo tracked him down, and it wasn't even Gast he tracked; he wanted Ifalna, and Gast was to come along as the accompanying spouse. No one shouted, "Shinra deserter, die!"

I think Bugenhagen got a pass because he completed his work, the work was considered no longer useful, and he was simply "released" so to speak. Sorta like how the people who got to "retire" to Banora got to leave. They're under surveillance, kept track of, but ultimately left alone.

Gast basically suddenly quit mid-project, when the work still needed to be done and it was a product of critical importance. Considering he was running across the globe trying to stay as far away from Shinra as possible, that seems as if he was trying to avoid them for his own safety. Especially when he found an actual living Cetra. Shinra has been willing to kill someone on the possibility someone might leak or tell their secrets out in the open so I definitely don't think they'd let Gast have a free pass if he left his work early.

And I dunno about that, regarding Hojo. If that were the case, why bring a bunch of infantrymen strapped with guns? Was Hojo really expecting it to be that peaceful? It's a glorified kidnapping upon threat of lethal force. Clearly when you bring lethal force, you expect a good chance of using it.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Lucrecia can't even make Hojo let her hold her baby. How is she going to prevent Gast from killing the wee thing?
It wouldn't have been difficult for Gast to substitute one of little Sephiroth's usual injections with potassium cyanide or something. He probably wouldn't have succeeded, though. The Jenova in Sephiroth wouldn't have permitted it. And Gast's hand would have probably trembled; he would have backed away exclaiming, "No, no, the poor innocent babe. This isn't its fault. I can't kill it - "at which point Hojo would have grabbed the hypodermic and jabbed it into Gast's neck.

I think that once Gast ran away, Hojo said something like, "Let the old fool go. Who needs an incompetent scientist who didn't even understand his own work? You have his research, and more importantly, you have me... and my precious specimen."

I suspect SE realise Gast's backstory is unsatisfactory and doesn't sufficiently exonerate him. I'm sure we'll see it expanded in the Remake.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Hate to contribute to the death of more olden lore understanding, but Cait Sith's line on the Highwind wasn't that Bugenhagen used to be a Shin-Ra worker. =( Instead, he said Bugen used to be a frequent customer: ブーゲンさんは昔っから神羅のお得意さんやったんです

Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, usually, but in this case, if he had tried to see what was down there over the last three years, he'd have mentioned it to Vincent. Since he didn't mention it, it is more reasonable to conclude that he didn't try than that he did try but didn't think the results of the effort worth mentioning.

I mean, you'd have to be concluding that he never investigated the wreckage of the most obvious place in the world to look for a) lingering science department experiments that may be loose; and b) survivors in need of help. Obviously he wouldn't have been looking for Deepground specifically -- he had no clue what it actually was, much less the scale of the thing.