LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
OK, fair enough re. Bugenhagen.
Did Hojo manipulate Lucrecia? [split from Repository of Debunked Rumors]
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
Please, shatter my tenuous grasp of the lore and timeline of this fantasy world more. I don't think I've hit my head against this desk enough when thinking about the localization.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
The difference between Gast and Lucrecia appears to be that she shows sincere regret and tries to make up for it, where he just flees. So why judge Lu more harshly?
Unless of course he asked his intelligence Dept if they'd ever heard of Deepground.
Unless of course he asked his intelligence Dept if they'd ever heard of Deepground.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Umm, what did Lucrecia do to "make up for it?"
Saving the life of her past crush after her mentally wacked out husband murdered him, isn't making up for being a terrible mother or birthing the equivalent of Antichrist Omniman.
She just literally puts herself in crystal stasis. How's that "making up?"
Saving the life of her past crush after her mentally wacked out husband murdered him, isn't making up for being a terrible mother or birthing the equivalent of Antichrist Omniman.
She just literally puts herself in crystal stasis. How's that "making up?"
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Yuffie spent most of the next two years in Wutai, long past the period we're discussing. And even if she hadn't, she also knew nothing of the scale of Deepground, seeing as she never actually visited it.
She visited a comparatively much smaller basement (of a known department) where she fought Scarlet (who was now dead) along with a few "Tron" rejects and their bondage buddy. What does this convey about the reality of Deepground or its imminent threat? Not where it actually is, what it actually is, or who's actually there.
Definitely not that it's a much, much deeper basement, that it's ginormous, that there are thousands of supersoldiers there, that these supersoldiers are still alive years after Meteor, etc.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
She tried to get her son back.
TTM, I'm just gonna refer you to the other thread.....
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
You'll have to be more specific, as there has been a lot of bleed between threads these past few days. At any rate, I know I haven't made the point about Yuffie and Wutai in another thread/that you haven't responded to it elsewhere.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Being in Wutai doesn't matter, she has a phone. Yuffie doesn't have all the details, but she does know this:
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
And again, I ask how does that make up for it?
The damage was done. She "tried to get him back?" Well uh, too late
The baby is corporate property now. Her efforts were found lacking and ineffective. Sephiroth grew up and became the monster Shinra made him. His mother isn't Lucrecia. It's Jenova. So she failed.Please demonstrate she knows this.
This is like expecting Tifa or Cloud to know that Sephiroth could potentially still be alive lurking in the Lifestream after Nibelheim. Like, really? You really expect Yuffie to just process this esoteric Intel on a supersoldier that she was busy trying to fend off all while compartmentalising the trauma and sadness of losing her comrade? All while fighting another supersoldier trying to slam a meteorite into the planet??
If Yuffie were Kakashi Hatake, the legendary Fourth Hokage, The Gallant Jiraiya or Hashirama of the Senju, sure! I'd expect them to provide a full bingo book of every piece of Intel they encountered.
Yuffie is 16 years old. It's incredible she made it this far. Come on.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
... But she doesn't work for the WRO during that time. Which is the point.
And we've already established that Reeve knew something shady was in the basement, with or without Yuffie -- he either assumed it was taken care of by Meteor or looked and didn't find anything. The end.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
I said 'tried' to make up for it, Mako.
As you wish.
That's evident just from the bossfight alone. Nero got very up close and personal, she saw him shoot scary black stuff, she saw him loom over Sonon's shoulder.
[/quote]There's also a distinct unit of people that aren't SOLDIER but are enhanced like them, also in the basement of the Shinra building [/quote]
She specifically notes DG as a distinct and unique group, (who are these assholes) something that she does not do for any of the other specialized shinra units she fights. Yuffie is a skilled enough fighter to know 'normally, people die when I stab them this many times' and the the DGs take a lot of punishment relative to non SOLDIER Shinra troops. If they were faster, stronger, etc, she would have plenty of opportunity to notice.
Most of the things she fought?
None of this takes special insight or knowledge beyond the ability to fight and observe your enemies abilities, a skill she would need to have in order to survive the experience.
TTM, Dirge's prologue put Yuffie in Midgar managing the evacuation. The same evacuation that Reeve is in charge of. She is in a position of authority over the rescue teams, enough that she has henchmen and can order around helicopters. Who gave her that authority, do you think?
As you wish.
That's evident just from the bossfight alone. Nero got very up close and personal, she saw him shoot scary black stuff, she saw him loom over Sonon's shoulder.
[/quote]There's also a distinct unit of people that aren't SOLDIER but are enhanced like them, also in the basement of the Shinra building [/quote]
She specifically notes DG as a distinct and unique group, (who are these assholes) something that she does not do for any of the other specialized shinra units she fights. Yuffie is a skilled enough fighter to know 'normally, people die when I stab them this many times' and the the DGs take a lot of punishment relative to non SOLDIER Shinra troops. If they were faster, stronger, etc, she would have plenty of opportunity to notice.
Most of the things she fought?
None of this takes special insight or knowledge beyond the ability to fight and observe your enemies abilities, a skill she would need to have in order to survive the experience.
TTM, Dirge's prologue put Yuffie in Midgar managing the evacuation. The same evacuation that Reeve is in charge of. She is in a position of authority over the rescue teams, enough that she has henchmen and can order around helicopters. Who gave her that authority, do you think?
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
And by the end of her journey with Avalanche, she's fought plenty of things that were much, much harder to kill, including 1st Class Jenova-type SOLDIERs.
????
That occurred the night Diamond Weapon blasted Rufus's office. There was no WRO yet.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Mako enhanced humans that are not dressed as SOLDIER would still be notable (which would be why she notes them)
Reeve is running the evacuation of Midgar. Yuffie has a position of authority in that same evacuation. She already had ties to him prior to Meteorfall, it's not like she was out of contact or inaccessible to him, and given the giant focus on cleaning up Shinra's messes, it is implausible that her escapades under the building wouldn't come up.
Reeve is running the evacuation of Midgar. Yuffie has a position of authority in that same evacuation. She already had ties to him prior to Meteorfall, it's not like she was out of contact or inaccessible to him, and given the giant focus on cleaning up Shinra's messes, it is implausible that her escapades under the building wouldn't come up.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
You really give Yuffie too much credit as some thorough ninja agent that would compile all this data.
Like, I don't get how you think this way. She's not some special jonin with vast levels of professional ninja experience under her belt.
Like, I don't get how you think this way. She's not some special jonin with vast levels of professional ninja experience under her belt.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
It's not complex information. What Nero looks like, what the DG uniforms look like, and the fact that they're something distinct from the rest of Shinra forces (which we see her do), plus the word 'Deepground', which we also see her take note of.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
That is complex information.
You're not taking the situational awareness into consideration at all. The "fog of war" paired with the frantic and life threatening stressors of an intense fight makes recalling specific information within the frenzy of an escape battle exceedingly difficult. "Deepground" is only mentioned a single time out of the thousands of words she hears with within the Shinra Building, and she only repeated it because it made no sense in context and then immediately asked Nero if he could move aside so they could leave.
The main thing on her mind after leaving (aside from Sonon getting killed) was the disaster they were trying to warn AVALANCHE over, which was the Sector 7 plate fall. That was the key detail or 'intel' she was holding onto which was sadly the only worthwhile thing that was what she took from there. That, coupled with Sonon dying would more than likely burn itself into her mind far more than a single word.
Expecting Yuffie to remember "Deepground" out of the plethora of bizarre, frightening, frantic and chaotic experiences from the month(s) long adventure to stop Sephiroth in FFVII (Temple of the Ancients, Cosmo Canyon, The Forgotten City, Junon, The Northern Crater, etc etc), three whole years later, is so unrealistic. You'd need someone with a photographic memory and gifted levels of recall.
You're not taking the situational awareness into consideration at all. The "fog of war" paired with the frantic and life threatening stressors of an intense fight makes recalling specific information within the frenzy of an escape battle exceedingly difficult. "Deepground" is only mentioned a single time out of the thousands of words she hears with within the Shinra Building, and she only repeated it because it made no sense in context and then immediately asked Nero if he could move aside so they could leave.
The main thing on her mind after leaving (aside from Sonon getting killed) was the disaster they were trying to warn AVALANCHE over, which was the Sector 7 plate fall. That was the key detail or 'intel' she was holding onto which was sadly the only worthwhile thing that was what she took from there. That, coupled with Sonon dying would more than likely burn itself into her mind far more than a single word.
Expecting Yuffie to remember "Deepground" out of the plethora of bizarre, frightening, frantic and chaotic experiences from the month(s) long adventure to stop Sephiroth in FFVII (Temple of the Ancients, Cosmo Canyon, The Forgotten City, Junon, The Northern Crater, etc etc), three whole years later, is so unrealistic. You'd need someone with a photographic memory and gifted levels of recall.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
If Sonon dying was burned into her mind, then Nero and his utter freakiness will also have been burned into her mind.
Sonon's death was a traumatic event for her. People who suffer traumatic events often feel a compulsion to speak of them to whoever will listen (it's actually a way to heal from the trauma). Yuffie is by nature a talker. It seems to me that, as people with PTSD do, she would revisit Sonon's death again and again in her memory, and if the word "Deepground" was associated with his death/the people who killed him, that would also have been burned into her mind.
Sonon's death was a traumatic event for her. People who suffer traumatic events often feel a compulsion to speak of them to whoever will listen (it's actually a way to heal from the trauma). Yuffie is by nature a talker. It seems to me that, as people with PTSD do, she would revisit Sonon's death again and again in her memory, and if the word "Deepground" was associated with his death/the people who killed him, that would also have been burned into her mind.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
While that's true about revisiting or maybe talking about a traumatic experience, memory is actually deteriorated through the experiencing of traumatic events. While PTSD and psychological trauma can burn certain portions of a traumatic event into one's mind, it deteriorates long term declarative memory, which is the brain's ability to form specific memories for facts, names, places, and personal experiences for later recall. Meaning, while you may vividly remember some aspects of the traumatic and/or frightening experience, you won't be in control of what you remember. It'll be fragmented and it'll be especially difficult to specifically recall details for later reference. It's why victims of violent crime don't always remember their assailant's appearance, even when staring right at them, but can distinctly remember their voice or some other distinct feature.
The word "Deepground" itself isn't some key detail that would somehow float to the surface 3 years later by itself independent of any prompting. The tangible threats and actions themselves like darkness, his freakish appearance and the death itself would be more memorable than one off mentioned word with no definition or explanation. She wouldn't even be aware of what military ranks Shinra holds, let alone what separates one thug of Shinra for another.
The word "Deepground" itself isn't some key detail that would somehow float to the surface 3 years later by itself independent of any prompting. The tangible threats and actions themselves like darkness, his freakish appearance and the death itself would be more memorable than one off mentioned word with no definition or explanation. She wouldn't even be aware of what military ranks Shinra holds, let alone what separates one thug of Shinra for another.
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LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
The fact is, we can't definitively say what details she would or would not remember. I can only speak for the traumatic events I have experienced, and I know that while much of each event is a blur, certain details remain vividly highlighted. I can't state with certainty that Yufie would remember the name Deepground, but you cannot state definitively that she wouldn't. The possibility exists. After all, while victims of violent crime may not always remember their assailant's face, they sometimes do. i would nevertheless be very surprised if she didn't have a vivid and detailed memory - probably an intrusive memory - of the thing that killed Sonon.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
She didn't remember Deepground so I sorta can declaratively say she wouldn't remember it
And it makes sense. Hearing a single word one time amidst a storm of traumatic fear and battle wouldn't convey information on the nature, scale, meaning or level of threat contained within an underground Shinra research facility she's never been to, that's focused on creating amoral supersoldiers. That wouldn't be her priority, especially three years later.
And it makes sense. Hearing a single word one time amidst a storm of traumatic fear and battle wouldn't convey information on the nature, scale, meaning or level of threat contained within an underground Shinra research facility she's never been to, that's focused on creating amoral supersoldiers. That wouldn't be her priority, especially three years later.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
How do you know she didn't/won't remember Deepground?
We're in a new continuity now, and it's not as if the makers have prioritised absolute consistency with the Compilation; what happened in DoC may no longer apply.
Since, as you pointed out, "you won't be in control of what you remember" after a traumatic event, the question of whether or not remembering Deepground is her priority is irrelevant. She'll remember what she remembers.
We're in a new continuity now, and it's not as if the makers have prioritised absolute consistency with the Compilation; what happened in DoC may no longer apply.
Since, as you pointed out, "you won't be in control of what you remember" after a traumatic event, the question of whether or not remembering Deepground is her priority is irrelevant. She'll remember what she remembers.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Who says we're in a "new" continuity? Unless otherwise stated, this is the Compilation of FFVII, which the Remake is apart of, and references future events that are heavily foreshadowed. This is simply retroactive continuity. Unless someone says it no longer applies (which they haven't, quite the opposite in fact), it 100% is meant to fit with everything that came before. Yuffie doesn't remember Deepground, that's apparent in Dirge of Cerberus.
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LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I think you did. Sephiroth persuaded Cloud & Co to defeat the Whispers that were forcing events to align with the plot of the original game, and now we're moving forward into terrifying unbounded freedom.
Look, I can't speak for Clem but what I originally said was that having Yufie experience such a traumatic boss battle with the leading member of Deepground undermined some of the already shaky believability of DoC's premise, namely that nobody had a clue that Shinra was keeping an enormous secret army in its basement. Other people then posited that Cloud & Co might fight Azul, Rosso etc..., which would make DoC's premise even shakier. You're essentially presenting a circular argument by saying that the canonicity of DoC can't be undermined because of what happened in DoC, and you're not addressing the core issue which is that the events of the Remake and its DLC are making DoC's very premise increasingly implausible.
Look, I can't speak for Clem but what I originally said was that having Yufie experience such a traumatic boss battle with the leading member of Deepground undermined some of the already shaky believability of DoC's premise, namely that nobody had a clue that Shinra was keeping an enormous secret army in its basement. Other people then posited that Cloud & Co might fight Azul, Rosso etc..., which would make DoC's premise even shakier. You're essentially presenting a circular argument by saying that the canonicity of DoC can't be undermined because of what happened in DoC, and you're not addressing the core issue which is that the events of the Remake and its DLC are making DoC's very premise increasingly implausible.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Noooo... I think you're confusing me or my perspective with someone else's.
Why do you think people should know about a clandestine research and torture facility buried under Midgar by the Shinra Company, where only those with the highest levels of clearance were privy to? There were rumors. And some in Shinra heard the name but never knew it's meaning or purpose. But clandestine top secret projects and facilities exist today in real life.
People, including Shinra employees, didn't even know Jenova existed, or what made SOLDIER superhuman aside from the mako. Shinra held numerous secrets, including leveling whole towns with bombs, burning towns to the ground, and then rebuilding them perfectly as they were before and filling them with actors meant to impersonate the populace. Deepground is hardly the most unbelievable thing Shinra has ever done. Shinra spares no expense.
Why do you think people should know about a clandestine research and torture facility buried under Midgar by the Shinra Company, where only those with the highest levels of clearance were privy to? There were rumors. And some in Shinra heard the name but never knew it's meaning or purpose. But clandestine top secret projects and facilities exist today in real life.
People, including Shinra employees, didn't even know Jenova existed, or what made SOLDIER superhuman aside from the mako. Shinra held numerous secrets, including leveling whole towns with bombs, burning towns to the ground, and then rebuilding them perfectly as they were before and filling them with actors meant to impersonate the populace. Deepground is hardly the most unbelievable thing Shinra has ever done. Shinra spares no expense.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
There's no one way memory works, so we can't say definitively one way or another what she remembers, but from what we're shown, she specifically recognises the DGs as something unique and notable despite having worked her way through a good chunk of Shinra craziness by then. She's also specifically shown to take note of Deepground.
Yuffie doesn't have the camera's third person omniscient perspective, she's looking out of her eyes, which means she is up close and personal with the people she's stabbing. If they're performing better than the rest of Shinra's troops, she will notice, because she will need to in order to survive.
Yuffie doesn't have the camera's third person omniscient perspective, she's looking out of her eyes, which means she is up close and personal with the people she's stabbing. If they're performing better than the rest of Shinra's troops, she will notice, because she will need to in order to survive.