Did Hojo manipulate Lucrecia? [split from Repository of Debunked Rumors]

[kathy202]

First name that came to mind was Reno, but nah, not quite right. Legend maybe. I have no idea

 

[ph14basicbitch]

If Cloud were the MC, then Roche would be a very appropriate Majima. Can see him coming into places on his bike while yelling ~my friend~.

But in a Turks-centric game? Hmm.

 

[Clement Rage]

Lic, the Turks were on vacation in Wutai by coincidence, that's the point. They have a standing order to find Corneo as part of their general 'hunt down fugitives' duties, but they're off the clock, and so don't care that Corneo is running free until one of their own is kidnapped.

You're not wrong that there is a degree of subjectivity, but I do feel that there's also an objective element in whether the character readily lends themselves to what the plot wants to do with them -- and also that this is a reasonable enough qualification to include in the rubric.

Everyone agrees that there are objective elements, but no one agrees on what the objective elements are. Huh.

Lucrecia fits perfectly into what the plot wants to do with her, she's exactly what the story needs in her role. The character is perfectly consistent, there's no actual storytelling problem in anything she does except that some people don't like some of it.

Genesis is also consistent, he has done everything he's done in search of a cure and revenge, so post healing he doesn't need them anymore. He's not, like, trustworthy or anything. We're not asked to believe he's redeemed, just that Zack doesn't want to kill him. The secret ending of Dirge seems more 'oh crap, what's he going to do next' than' 'happy reformed ending'. (An ultimania may say different). Even him being carried away to DG at the end of CC is more 'stinger sequel hook' than 'reformed epilogue'

I haven't played type 0, but none of AVALANCHE give themselves the benefit of the doubt. Cloud, Barret, Aeris, Tifa, Vincent, all of them default to blaming themselves when bad things happen to, near, or around them.

We have yet to see any penitence out of him for his numerous sins nor any noble action towards his fellow humans. Even the fact that he is supposed to now be devoted to the planet's protection may not mean diddly when his past behavior stemmed in part from zealous devotion to something non-human, and this new obsession could just be pretense for further megalomania.

Who else might that apply to, hmm?

There are times when 'invisible people offscreen are making them do it' makes sense. For instance, when Tseng corners AVALANCHE in the elevator in Shinra HQ. But if you use it too often, it starts to run thin.

The three remaining Turks were still loved ones to one another, and if they were still on the chopping block two months after "following through" (shhhh) on their end of the ultimatum to save themselves from execution, logically that potentially remains the case a few short days later.

Obviously things were different by the time of the Gongaga visit (unsure whether Scarlet even knows this), seeing as Rufus was in charge by this point -- but then why would the Turks be killing executives willy nilly anyway? Rufus probably isn't going to appreciate that.

Revenge? It's also entirely possible that Rufus would want Scarlet replaced, and give Tseng secret instructions to assassinate her or something. Scarlet cannot be banking on Tseng's super loyalty to Rufus which she's not supposed to know about. Or that Tseng might be holding enough of a grudge to not care what Rufus wants. If characters need to be metagaming to make the scene work, it's usually a problem. Scarlet has to be either thinking either 'Tseng is trustworthy' or 'I have him under control' but BC presents a masterclass in how goddamned difficult it is to make the Turks do anything they don't want to do. Shinra spends the entire game trying and failing.

We saw the Turks under threat in BC, and we saw mainstream Shinra's very limited ability to act on those threats. Only overwhelming force stood a chance, and even that got pretty dicey.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I am pretty sure they were in Wutai to find him and had just taken a day off to enjoy themselves.

 

[Roger]

Lucrecia fits perfectly into what the plot wants to do with her, she's exactly what the story needs in her role. The character is perfectly consistent, there's no actual storytelling problem in anything she does except that some people don't like some of it.

There's a pretty clear storytelling problem in that she is a walking, talking person in one game and somehow stuck in a crystal in another to explain why she cannot interact with the world anymore. Lucretia was consistent enough in Vincent's backstory but she lived beyond the setting of Vincent's backstory but the plot was done with Lucretia as a proactive player that can affect change after Vincent and Sephiroth's situations were set up in Nibelheim.

Genesis is also consistent, he has done everything he's done in search of a cure and revenge, so post healing he doesn't need them anymore. He's not, like, trustworthy or anything. We're not asked to believe he's redeemed, just that Zack doesn't want to kill him. The secret ending of Dirge seems more 'oh crap, what's he going to do next' than' 'happy reformed ending'. (An ultimania may say different). Even him being carried away to DG at the end of CC is more 'stinger sequel hook' than 'reformed epilogue'

I haven't played type 0, but none of AVALANCHE give themselves the benefit of the doubt. Cloud, Barret, Aeris, Tifa, Vincent, all of them default to blaming themselves when bad things happen to, near, or around them.

And then everyone except Lucretia gets to continue to grow and change and do things beyond that point in time.

 

[Clement Rage]

She's more of a ghost than a walking talking person, she appears and disappears, and her text boxes are transparent, it's not like there's any indication she can leave the cave or that she's just been living there as a real person for thirty years. That's something more akin to the many variations of Nibelheim than a storytelling fault.

The end of Cloud and Vincent's arcs are when they learn to move past blaming themselves for things, which happen at the end of AC and Dirge respectively, more or less the last time we see them as lead characters.
That's also the end of Lucrecia's story, it's why it's important that 'you were the reason I survived', it's 'you didn't destroy everything you touched, you saved me'. The ghost moving past its unfinished business.

 

[Roger]

She's more of a ghost than a walking talking person, she appears and disappears, and her text boxes are transparent, it's not like there's any indication she can leave the cave or that she's just been living there as a real person for thirty years. That's something more akin to the many variations of Nibelheim than a storytelling fault.

She heard that Sephiroth died from people, she acknowledges that she herself cannot. She asked Vincent's questions and gets answers. In DoC they inexplicably left her in a situation where she conciously cannot give or receive information. That's a pretty big difference from Sephiroth jumping or falling in the Mako (and I would consider the variations of the Nibelheim incident storytelling problems in their own right).

The end of Cloud and Vincent's arcs are when they learn to move past blaming themselves for things, which happen at the end of AC and Dirge respectively, more or less the last time we see them as lead characters.
That's also the end of Lucrecia's story, it's why it's important that 'you were the reason I survived', it's 'you didn't destroy everything you touched, you saved me'. The ghost moving past its unfinished business.

Other stuff happens in Cloud and Vincent's story after they've done the thing they blame themselves for beyond blaming themselves. Literally Vincent's entire adventure throughout multiple games happens in the aftermath of his failure. Just because he has a chip on his shoulder about doesn't aquate him to Lucretia. He got out of his coffin. Lucretia never got out of her cave, and inexplicably needed to be rendered even less capable of action then just hanging out in said cave.

 

[Clement Rage]

Hold up...the whole point of Dirge is that she does act beyond the stuff she blames herself for. First by saving Vincent with Chaos theory, then again through Shelke and her data fragments, (it's not actually her spirit but a digital copy, but her wishes and dreams and will are the same. She gives him the vital piece of info he needs to defeat Hojo, that he can rule Chaos while still being himself. Shelke is not possessed, but she is acting on Lucrecia's wishes.

It's not clear exactly what's happening in the OG, most of the time Lucrecia's not visible at all. She's not completely dead, but she's not completely alive either. She appears once... and then never appears again, no matter how often you go back to the cave. It's not like she's just hanging around for a chat whenever she wants. It actually ends up consistent with Sephiroth, who also grew back a body in crystal but had to exert his will through clones and illusions. It's easy enough to say 'manifesting can happen briefly with great effort, but it's not easy or common' if we're aiming for consistency.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

In DoC, are we given the impression that he regularly visits Lucrecia in her crystal?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Vincent visits Lucrecia and has one-sided conversations with her in crystal stasis, yes.

 

[Roger]

Lucrecia
I wanted to disappear... I couldn't be with anyone... I wanted to die...
But the Jenova inside me wouldn't let me die...
Lately, I dream a lot of Sephiroth... My dear, dear child.
Ever since he was born I never got to hold him, even once...
Not even once. You can't call me his mother... That... is my sin...

Vincent starts forward.

Lucrecia
Back!! Stay back!
Vincent... Won't you please tell me?

Vincent
......What?

Lucrecia
If Sephiroth is still alive?
I heard that he died five years ago. But I see him in my dreams so often...
And I know that physically, like myself, he can't die so easily.
Please, Vincent tell me......

Lucretia herself explains her not being around other people as a conscious decision she decided to make. She tells us she physically cannot die. She tells she heard he is dead and that she dreams about him a lot lately. I genuinely do not know how you can infer that she's goes back to being dead when she doesn't talk to Vincent. I agree that it isn't clear what is happening. The creators themselves felt it was unclear enough that they completely changed her status quo to so something more presentable. To me that is pretty strong indication that there was a problem. As a posthumous character Lucretia is no better or worse then Gast. She's not though, she came back months if not years later after Vincent was shot, then what? Having saved Vincent she now forever goes on living as a statue that Vincent can feel sorry without any reason for why she ended up like that.

 

[Clement Rage]

And are the various versions of Nibelheim indications that the original version was a problem? I don't think the fact that they changed it in future games indicates that there was something wrong with the original version.

Lucrecia's not completely dead, but she's not completely alive either. No one else appears and disappears like that without being some kind of spirit. She hasn't been living in that cave for thirty years ordering takeout pizzas. If this is something wrong with Lucrecia's story, it's also a fault with everyone else's story.

 

[Mobius Stripper]

I still have no idea what was going on with her there, and it drives me crazy. Can she project her consciousness out of the crystal? What??? How???

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't think she's in the crystal in FFVII.

She puts herself in the crystal after FFVII. Probably right after having her final dialogue in FFVII and giving Vincent his ultimate weapon.

But no, I don't think we're supposed to assume Lucrecia's been in the crystal all that time. Remember, the cave is totally empty when anyone else visits it. She only appears if Vincent is in the party.

 

[Mobius Stripper]

So she was just in a cave for 30 years living like Gollum? That doesn't make sense to me either.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Vincent slept in a coffin for 30 years.

Lucrecia spending her immortality living outside in a cave is quite rational in comparison.

 

[Mobius Stripper]

But if she could have sealed herself in the crystal the entire time, why did she wait so long? I get how your ex showing up can be the straw that breaks the camel's back, but still.

I have to say, I kind of like the idea of Gollum Lucrecia, living in a cave, catching weird blind fish with her hands & eating them raw. But also girl looks way too good in DoC for me to believe that she was ever living that way. Makes more sense that she dressed up in her best Instagram outfit and immediately preserved herself while she still looked like a snack.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Lucrecia is hard immortal, like her son Sephiroth. She won't age or degrade over time. So she may have subconsciously been waiting or hoping for some sign of Vincent (or Sephiroth) and upon receiving that resolution, decided she has no reason to remain conscious.

She's stuck, afraid and too ashamed to live outside and face the world. But also torn on waiting and wanting to communicate one last time to Vincent. I think there's meaning in Lucrecia wanting to give one last thing to Vincent before she ultimately removes herself from everyone else.

 

[Mobius Stripper]

Maybe hearing that Sephiroth was dead was what pushed her over the edge.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

She was "pushed over the edge" a long time ago. It's worth pointing out that she has *no control* over her own immortality. It's that the *Jenova* in her that won't let her die even when she herself wants too.

 

[Mobius Stripper]

Yeah, I agree. I'm just wondering why she didn't seal herself in the crystal earlier. I always assumed she had already been in the crystal the whole time.

 

[Clement Rage]

I think the intent is that she was always in the crystal. Sephiroth's body is in crystal too, but he can project illusions of himself outside it. Out of universe, the OG version was more of a ghost, but for Dirge they needed her to be in the cave but not able to give lectures on Omega theory.

If she was living in the cave it would look more like the cave of Counting Sleepy Guy.

It's a lot like the variations of Nibelheim. OG version has to fit in Cloud's story, so he is alone. The compilation had a need for other characters to be present, so the last fight got moved to somewhere they could see what happened, and suddenly jenova room has a destructable floor.

There's nothing particularly flawed about Lucrecia's story, the characters are cohesive, the lore works fine, the logic works fine. Honestly, Dirge gives her a very strong arc. There's nothing contradictory or detrimental to character, as opposed to, say, Nanaki 'last of my race' knowing he's not the last of his race.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The FFVII Ultimania calls the crystalline structure in Lucrecia's cave a throne. So unless she's been sealing herself inside a crystal chair, no. I don't think she's always in the crystal. She's clearly seen walking and moving when first meeting Vincent there.

The cave she's shown sleeping in crystal stasis doesn't have to be the exact same cavern we first meet her in. It could be a deeper, unseen room attached to it.

 

[Clement Rage]

So is Sephiroth, who is also entombed in a crystal across early FF7.

If true, how depressing for Vincent. His ex froze herself in ice just to get away from him.

The grotto belonged to Chaos originally. Chaos has a throne? Interesting implications.

 

[Roundhouse]

So someone put forth the notion that Vincent is actually a misogynistic gaslighting incel due to his behaviour in regard to Lucrecia. I was shocked and saddened by such a charge as I always thought of Vince as a big carebear...but I also like keeping an open mind. What does everyone think, does this hold weight?