Do we know how old Elena is?

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Good question. I am sure there are scores, but I can't think of one right now. It's one of the reasons I love Walking Dead's Carol so much.

I'm not sure I even see Shears and Elfe in a relationship. There are many kinds of love besides romance. And sometimes the love of your life is not a romantic one.

 

[Octo]

You know what, I'm having trouble here thinking of stuff where the female character is plain/ordinary looking (actually plain/ordinary - not just wearing glasses or braces) and is loved but as an aside to the main plot, so that they aren't making it such a big fucking deal that 'oh look shes ugly but she gets the guy LOOK IT CAN HAPPEN'

In fact right now the only thing I can think of is the series of Fargo I'm watching, where Molly Solverson is just getting on with her job and incompetent boss, and then has an awkward 'thing' I'm hesitant to call it a romance at this stage - with another cop from another force. (and just for the record I think she is attractive, but shes not hollywood and I hope she never will be)

I mean you could argue that Ellen Ripley isn't exactly mainstream attractive - though obviously she was attractive enough to be running about in her pants

I don't know if anyone has seen/remembers Cracker with Robbie Coltrane - where he plays a chainsmoking criminal psychologist - anyway in that he seems to have women falling at his feet. IIRC he's married but then he has an affair with a young pretty detective. This is Hagrid we're talking about here, but obviously shes attracted to him because hes super smart and oh so good at his job. Where is the female equivalent of that? hmm?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The British are still somewhat better at this than the Americans. I think it's because the British really cherish their great actresses and are therefore happy to let them be loved at any age. Judi Dench, Helen Mirren, Celie Imrie, Juliet Stevenson, Julie Christie, Jenny Agutter, Tilda Swinton - I know there's more but I can't remember them now - they have been allowed to grow old and remain lovable and even oldie-hot (and not MILF hot) in a way that only Meryl Streep has in the US. I think the British are a lot more "look-ist" than they used to be but nowhere near as bad as the USA with their obsession with youth and unnaturally, blindingly white bleached teeth.

Sorry, we went a long way off the topic of Elena. My point was not to complain that older women are not found attractive and don't have adventures in real life, but rather than TV/movies/pop fiction tend not to reflect real life in this regard.

I think I need to write a fantasy novel in which an older woman has to go on a quest with a younger guy and an older guy, and the younger guy falls for her and she kind of likes the older guy, but she eventually uses her treasure money to buy a small house of her own where she settles down with her kids and cats to write novels, and that's a happy ending.

 

[Clement Rage]

I imagine it might be hard to get volunteers for an advertisement "wanted-ugly woman."

Carol, Carol, Carol... I can't remember who that is, TV show or comic?

I think I need to write a fantasy novel in which an older woman has to go on a quest with a younger guy and an older guy, and the younger guy falls for her and she kind of likes the older guy, but she eventually uses her treasure money to buy a small house of her own where she settles down with her kids and cats to write novels, and that's a happy ending.

Do. I've been looking for good female fantasy writers for quite some time now, but I keep finding so many that have the basic plot of 'One specific woman rises through discrimination and/or the noble caste system and overthrows it to prove her worth', rather than 'it was never in question in the first place'.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

Tamora Pierce is pretty good. I've read her Beka Cooper series which is essentially a medieval fantasy story about a female cop gifted with magical powers that help her fight crime. No one questions female police officers and knights in the story.

 

[Clement Rage]

I've read Alanna, Protector of the Small, and Trickster's Choice, which were basically exactly what I mentioned above (done pretty well, but still). Didn't read Immortals or Beka Cooper because I couldn't find them. I know she does have a unique magic to help her compete with her peers.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^That was the problem I had with Tamora Pierce as well.

One author I recommend is Patricia A McKillip. She's a fantasy writer (with beautiful prose to boot) who'd I recommend just for all of her original plots (which are often based on ideas from Celtic mythology). But she's also really good at making strong female characters in general without having them be Special Snowflakes. Actually, she's good at writing strong characters in general (and her world-building... *drools*). She's been writing fantasy novels and short stories since the '70s. The two series she is know for is the RiddleMaster trilogy and Cygnet duology. Everything else she's written are stand-alone novels and short stories/novellas. She's probably one of the reasons I have so much trouble finding fantasy that I like.

And I have a really, really bad case of "I must go re-read this series right now"...

 

[Clement Rage]

Hmm... I'll keep an eye out. In other news, Michelle Sagara and Ilona Andrews are pretty good, although I'd love to edit out the romantic plot in the latter.

Sorry for the complete lack of anything on topic to say.

 

[Novus]

Interesting thread, everyone.
To answer the OP, I place Elena in the same age bracket as the rest of the gang. Probably the same age as Cloud.
I want her to be at least in her twenties for the attacks made (Icicle inn, and Midgar Underground) to be credible. If it's just a sixteen year old girl it's less of a threat.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

My headcanon was that she served in the army for a while prior to the Turks. It was a military school, so maybe work placement?

One word: DEBS.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0367631/

To be fair, Ill advised crushes are practically a Turk trademark. Rude/Tifa, Rude/Chelsea, Tseng /Aerith, arguably Zack/Cissnei...

Vincent/Lucrecia...

Especially considering Shelke and Vincent. It's part of my headcanon.

And Lucrecia. It's part of a lot of headcanon.

I'll lay my cards on the table - I prefer an older Elfe because I am older myself, and I get tired of the young ones hogging all the action. In my mind's eye Elfe is a woman past the first flush of youth, possibly prematurely aged by the summons that's been sucking on her spirit energy; she takes after her father physically; she's tall, robust, like a pioneer woman, and plain rather than beautiful. And she is the love of Shears' life. I'm really tired of the convention that only beautiful young girls are worthy of being loved or interesting enough to have stories written about them. Real life doesn't work that way. Shears loves her because she's a charismatic powerhouse. She's awesome.

And while that's a fine ideal, and you are entitled to your own wants and desires, her picture is there for you to see very clearly in BC. She ain't ugly, and she ain't old. Want it all you want, but it doesn't appear to be Elfe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN8tm52KmOY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0isfW4nAibc

Those two translations are SO different. Wat.

Especially the parts where the screen darkens and there's some ambiguously attributed dialogue. In one version, it's Tseng musing on why he appreciates Veld, and in the other it's Veld musing on why he feel he can trust Tseng. Can we get any clarification on what those parts actually say and who is thinking them?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I never said Elfe was ugly. But she's no beauty and she doesn't have to be. And even if she was ugly, so what? If people can't get interested in a female character unless she's physically attractive then they really need to take a look at their values.

The artwork you refer to shows Elfe in her prime; when she was, say, 29 years old. She is unlikely to have looked so robust and healthy by the time they got that life-sucking summons out of her.

Anyway TBH I've reached the point where I don't care if my version of Elfe disagrees with canon because I prefer my version.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

No, she didn't have to be, but—

Sure wish I was that non-beautiful in high school.

 

[Octo]

^Compared to some of the character designs I think she does look mature - something about the eyes. Lets face it none of the FFVII characters are ugly ugly with the exception of Don Corneo. But there are definitely differing degrees of maturity - obviously working within the paramaters of Nomura/the japanese obsession with youth.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

No, she didn't have to be, but—

Sure wish I was that non-beautiful in high school.

She's a cartoon. Translate that into reality and it could go either way.

 

[Roger]

She's a cartoon. Translate that into reality and it could go either way.

She's basically looks like proto Lightning, I doubt she was meant to be average looking.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

She's a cartoon. Translate that into reality and it could go either way.

Translate it into reality and I think she'd be nonexistent because she's a cartoon and cartoon characters don't exist in reality.

 

[Clement Rage]

Nobody in FF games is ugly, because that's hard to animate. That photo of Elfe is a mugshot so you can identify who's talking, too much detail would be distracting.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Nobody in FF games is ugly, because that's hard to animate.

It's true, and kind of amusing. Ugly people, your faces are too complicated!

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

They have other characters that they bothered to make ugly. I'm not buying "ugly characters are too hard to portray" as a valid excuse as to why Elfe would look pretty in artwork but in "reality"* be ugly.

*Remember this character does not exist in reality.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I just don't agree that she looks pretty in the artwork. She looks kind of grim and uninterested in grooming. Anyway, I'm not trying to claim that she is actively ugly, just that she's not a fresh faced young beauty like Aerith or Tifa. She's just ordinary-looking. Kind of plain-looking.

This is a rather silly dispute. Obviously the character does not exist in reality, but you seem to be saying that it's not possible to look at her and imagine a more fleshed out version of her that is anything other than young and very pretty; that to do so means I'm wilfully denying the canon proof of her hotness. I disagree. I'm not saying she canonically IS plain and 35 years old; I'm saying nothing in canon contradicts that version of her, including her portrait. But she can be anything you want.

 

[Octo]

Actually this kind of reminds me of the old Reno artwork - back then I always thought he was cool and sexy - but in my minds eye he would look like Tim Roth or something - ratty and stubbly. And then AC came along and he was all prettied up.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Actually this kind of reminds me of the old Reno artwork - back then I always thought he was cool and sexy - but in my minds eye he would look like Tim Roth or something - ratty and stubbly. And then AC came along and he was all prettied up.

Yeah, I thought his under-eye marks were either scars or just like countour lines indicating that his cheekbones were that sharp. He looked very gaunt.

And dem collar bones, geez.

 

[trumana]

When a fantasy world is created, the author will usually base it's society on their own. Writer Kazushige Nojima is Japanese, so I would assume that the world of FF7 would be based on his culture.

The legal age to drink and service alcohol in Japan is 20. Therefore, I believe that Elena would have been at least 20/21 during the events of BC. The age gap between her and Tseng would be roughly ten years. So, she should be at least 25 by the time of AV.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Wow, this was a serious thread resurrection!

 

[Clement Rage]

Weirdly, I remember this thread. Can't believe I've been here since 2014 (and haven't apparently changed much. Hmm.)

Edit: And on topic, I doubt Shinra cares about drinking age.