I always thought that 'Materia damages the Planet' was just the WRO's excuse to restrict it because they didn't want just anyone to get access to Bahamut and, say, destroy a town. No one has problems with Vincent using materia in Dirge.
And the most destructive materia are natural. The Black Materia wasn't made in a reactor, and most of the summons are just lying around.
Alright, time to deal with this subject again. Short explanation as to why I think this discussion is important:
- Lore speculation for the sake of lore (what can I say, I like FFVII )
- Interested in speculating/theorizing/imagining what a post-DoC title would be like, and the Materia mechanics might influence that (although even that is source for some debate)
A small digression before the relevant quotes (and their consequences) are analysed again, because it turns out that Bugenhagen's script might not be relevant to this discussion.
Bugenhagen's line, Revisited
I asked my friend Dipsiel to translate the Japanese line.
Official localization:
Bugenhagen
“You are using Shinra Materia,
as a weapon?”
“Materia is highly dense spiritual energy.
A shred of the Planet's life.
It should not be used as a weapon.”
“We must stop using it…
or the Planet will be weakened.”
Bugenhagen “Shinra are using Materia,
as a weapon?”
“Materia is highly dense spiritual energy.
A shred of the Planet's life.
It should not be used as a weapon.” We must stop them from using it...
or the Planet will be weakened.”
According to Dipsiel, the first sentence literally says that Shinra is using the Materia, not Cloud/AVALANCHE. He can't see any other interpretation.
This makes sense to me. Bugenhagen's line is only available when the Huge Materia missions are happening. This means that Bugenhagen is likely referring to the Huge Materia that Shinra are using, and how the Planet would be weakened by having these Materia blown up.
Admittedly, a clear distinction is not made here if Bugenhagen is talking about Shinra's "use-rocket-packed-with-Materia-to-destroy-Meteor" or Shinra's general use of Materia. But looking at the point in the game when he has this script, my intuition tells me that he is referring to the act of destroying Materia as being what hurts the Planet. Hence why Cloud & Friends must stop the Materia from being disintegrated.
If anyone wants to debate about the translation, here is the Japanese line again:
If one thusly accepts the retranslation and my subsequent interpretation of this script, our number of relevant quotes (in this particular discussion) go down from three to two. These two being Cloud's line in the Intermediate Hall and Nomura's statement on page 86 in the Reunion Files.
Musing about Interpretation of Lore
Because we are dealing with a fictional world, its rules make as much sense as the creators/authors decide. I think it impossible to argue, as though it was some form of science, whether it makes more or less sense that Materia consumes spirit energy from the Planet itself.
Because of this I can't respond to analogies and descriptions such as "like a bowcaster pulling a string to fire an arrow farther than they could ever hurl a spear unaided" or similar.
These attempts at deduction via analogies can only be applied as a way to solidify the concept(s), after-the-fact that the creators have established the rules within the lore.
The writing in the GameFAQs Ultimania Omega document is an example of this.
There's not an explanation for
why its use drains the planet's energy, but based on Sephiroth's explanation
from the original game that materia links someone to the planet and allows
them to use its powers, its most likely that the materia allows someone to tap
into the Lifestream's energy and manifest it as a spell based on the specs of
the materia they're using. This would, of course, drain the planet's energy,
the same as turning it into electricity would.
Sounds intuitive enough, but comparing Materia usage with the transformation of mako->electricity is only justified after-the-fact of the default interpretation of the Reunion Files quote. Without Nomura's statement, there is no logical necessity for Materia to work in the aforementioned way. I can speculate for all eternity about how Spirit Energy, Magic Points, Materia and Magic *should* work, but I'd be none the wiser after it all because the rules are determined by the lore. Everything else is just fanon-filler. So you can see why I don't think that speculating about how MP works
(or to, like I wrote earlier, reply to Tres's "like a bowcaster pulling a string")
is not in any way relevant to answering this thread's primary question.
Obsidian Fire raised the issue of whether monsters are hurting the Planet when they use magic, to which Tres replied that monsters probably use their own spirit energy and that they can innately use magic just like the Cetra could. Great speculation, but are we as fans really supposed to speculate this far on our own about how magic and Materia works? Are we really supposed to figure out the consequences all on our own?
True, there is a lot of bad fiction out there. But are we really supposed to go this route?
STEP 1)
Find out either by a) interpreting Cloud's line in the Intermediate Hall as a statement that using Materia drains the Planet's life force b) a statement by Nomura, which is only seen as a small note on one page in a book released in 2005 (eight years after the original game)
that the use of Materia drains spirit energy in the same way as Mako engines do. (steps below are not in any necessary order)
STEP 2)
Speculate on Cosmo Canyon's stance about Materia use, when it is never referred to in any game script (
and presumably in any guide book, but again do correct me if I'm wrong
) and then reach the conclusion on our own that restorative Materia is somehow more justified than destructive Materia?
STEP 3) Assume that Cetra and monsters using magic does not hurt the Planet, so to not end up in that troublesome territory where monsters are the equivalent of small wandering Mako Reactors?
STEP 4)
Find justifications for each time the party (or any other environmentally friendly character) uses Materia, or proposes its use, in a post-OG story? Justifications that, here too, is a topic the characters never raise themselves. Where is the agreement (and how is it worded) on when it is right to use Materia versus when it is not?
Disregard the oddity that nature creates Materia naturally, despite Materia supposedly being a danger to itself. This is admittedly the most shaky observation and the Planet can be argued to make a lot of things that are bad for itself, but I think many will agree that the lore feels like it is written in an ugly way if it produces weapons of mass destruction and then hopes that the infernal humans don't end up using it.
If it was not clear before, the above should make it clear why I think that a version of FFVII lore where Materia consumes the Planet's spirit energy is a very troublesome one. STEP 2, where some of us might conclude that restorative Materia is less taboo than destructive Materia, leads us to icky topics like 'gun control'. If WRO wants to restore the world, should they ban Materia? But if they did, they take away a means for people to defend themselves. What if Choco Billy gets eaten by the Midgar Zolom because he wasn't allowed to use a Lightning/Thunder Materia like during the days of Shinra? Then Choco Bill (the father) is going to be really pissed off. The topic gets very...icky. (I mention the Materia-ban idea because it's a post-DoC idea I've read before, but I of course don't assume that everybody agrees that a Materia ban would happen)
I will now revisit the two relevant quotes, starting with Reunion-Files-Page-86.
"Cloud and the gang certainly aren't using mako anymore, because it drains the life of the planet. That means they don't use Materia, either. Yuffie collects them, but that's just because she lives to collect things (laughs). I guess the airship must be running on some mysterious ancient power source." (Nomura)
Let's clear the part of the quote that certainly is not true.
"Yuffie collects them, but that's just because she lives to collect things (laughs)."
First item: Near the end of Advent Children, Yuffie shouts in Cloud's direction that she has brought Materia. I always interpreted this as her bringing the Matera for Cloud to use. Even if you find a way to interpret this scene in any other way, the second item is all we need...
Second item: In Case of Yuffie, published in 2009, Yuffie uses restorative Materia on those who were injuried when the rise of the Lifestream damaged the buildings in Wutai. You can read about it here
Third item: At the start of CoY, Yuffie argues that she needs Materia to help with Wutai's restoration.
“Hmmmm—” mused Barret. “It’s true that Yuffie’s a good friend of ours. But it’s a whole different matter when it comes to materia, isn’t it?”
“No it isn’t! It’s the same. The same! I know it may be all over now that we’ve defeated Sephiroth but, I have a great dream and that’s to restore Wutai. To do that, having materia is crucial.”
This characterization of Yuffie by Kazushige Nojima goes against Tetsuya Nomura's claim that Yuffie has Materia ONLY because she likes to collect things. If only for the fact that Case of Yuffie is more recent than the Reunion Files (2009 versus 2005) I think Nojima's writing takes precedence here.
---
We all know that the final part of the quote (which mentions a 'mysterious ancient power source') is not at all relevant to the Materia discussion, so I'll express my opinion about it in this here spoiler tag.
WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?!!
My biggest problem is not how the 'ancient power source' is a very convenient story device, but Nomura's attitude. "I guess the airship must be" makes it sound like he made up the idea on the spot. I hope that this offensive attitude about lore construction is caused by a misrepresenting translation. If the way-too-casual attitude is there in the Japanese quote, then I am sorely disappointed in Nomura.
If we did not have the NPC in Dirge of Cerberus who confirms the "ancient power source" thing, I would be *tempted* to dismiss this part of the quote.
WRO Member: While the airship is named after
Cid's wife, construction of the
vessel wasn't performed by the
captain at all. >
Our team of loyal scientists
here at the World Regenesis
Organization or those criminals
at Shinra weren't involved, either. >
To tell you the truth, the ship
is not even from this era. It is
a relic from a lost civilization. >
Most of the machinery in the
engine room is boxed up in
black casing, so we don't even
know what half of it does. >
There's no need to worry. Even
though we cannot reproduce the
technology, we can still put it
to good use. >
I can almost guarantee
there will be no problems. >
Almost...
Makes you wonder... Did Nomura in 2005 (or late 2004?) make up the ancient power source idea on the spot during the interview, then had it entered as part of the mythos via Dirge of Cerberus (2006) one year later? That aside, the finding of ancient technology really should have been a main focus in the Compilation, rather than something left as a line by a temporary NPC.
End of digression.
---
We are now left with this part of the Reunion Files quote.
What do they use for fuel in this time period?
"Cloud and the gang certainly aren't using mako anymore, because it drains the life of the planet. That means they don't use Materia, either.
We have two sentences. This separation opens up interpretation because the reference "That means" in the second sentence could refer to either of the two segments that compose the first sentence.
Interpretation A:
| Cloud and the gang certainly aren't using mako anymore <-- That means they don't use Materia, either. |
Here the "That means" refers to the first part of the first sentence. "Not using mako" sounds like it should involve "not using crystallized mako" (aka Materia).
In order for this to work in the context of "it drains the life of the Planet" the quote only works for Materia that was created artifically, after spirit energy had been sucked from the Planet via reactors. We have to assume either that Nomura forgot about the existence of naturally formed Materia or that he considers "natural" Materia to be rare enough that he can omit acknowledging it.
Interpretation B (aka the Default Interpretation) :
| because it drains the life of the Planet <-- That means they don't use Materia, either |
The interpretation that tells us the use of Materia drains the Planet's life. The claim that the party doesn't use Materia has already been disproven, as we see by Yuffie offering and using Materia. Vincent also uses the Protomateria, both before and during Dirge of Cerberus. The question is also begged why Cloud kept a box full of destructive Materia in Advent Children, if he never had any intention to use it. If it was important not to use Materia, the contents of the box would have been returned to the Planet. It is possible to accept the claim that Cloud and his friends purposefully "limit" their reliance on Materia, but Nomura speaks of a complete non-use, not a certain undefined level of constraint.
Sadly, I can't with confidence say that these observations erase the Default Interpretation. Even with the second sentence essentially erased, due to the team still using Materia to some extent, I sense that somehow the claim "Materia is bad" still lingers on some form of ethe-linguistic-real plane. I do not know what logic should be applied here, so for the sake of humility I assume that the Default Interpretation has not been erased.
With the party still using Materia to at least some extent, we are left wondering if the Reunion Files quote is at all relevant to the Compilation. To show Mog's post a third time...
The argument against the use of Materia is kinda dumb. Any drain on the planet (probably minimal) is more than traded off for the exponential increase in abilities needed to defeat Sephiroth and fight Shinra on their journey. That, and it surely was just a reasoning used for them not using spells in AC(C). Any hypothetical game set after that time period (or hell, Dirge) will have the protagonists using Materia.
“Once Materia starts dividing,
you must be careful.”
“There's a limit to how much Materia
you can have.”
“Since we're fighting
for the life of the Planet,
it goes against my beliefs
to carry too much Materia.”
“Either way, I don't really care
but, I'll leave it up to you.”
“That's why, the amount of Materia that
we can have is limited to 200…
only what we can equip.”
“When you have too much Materia,
you need to dispose of some.
If you don't, you can't take on
any more.”
“So, ditch some Materia before that happens…
Ahem…I mean,
give them back to the Planet.”
Interpretation A: Carrying too much Materia is bad.
This is looking at what is directly said by Cloud, rather than what is inferred (see Interpretation B). Sadly it is not pointed out why a high amount of Materia is bad. I suspect bad writing; that what we have here is a lame attempt to justify the arbitrary number of 200 by using the game's story. Carrying around crystallized mako is bad, because...mako is bad on its own, no matter what? Although I believe this to be the case (it is how I interpreted the line before I read the Reunion Files) my opinion is not a solid argument.
Interpretation B: The more Materia we have the more we will use it, which will in turn drain the Planet's life faster.
As intuitive as the idea sounds that "Materia Divison" is a process that cultivates spirit energy and thus makes the Planet richer with life (again, really nice idea there Obsidian Fire) , the effects have never been described and so I abstain from involving it in arguments.
Interpretation B is not entirely solid. You could have one to a dozen Materia that are used A LOT, but also have 200 Materia and barely use them at all. Either way, AVALANCHE will use whatever they need and not throw away the Materia they deem necessary. Which seems to infer that simply carrying around unnecessary Materia is bad...which harkens back to my lame interpretation of Interpretation A.
------
Until either the two relevant quotes have been retranslated into something that is more objectively correct and which changes the argument, or some other quotes from the games or the guide books have been pulled and presented, I feel I can't continue this argument. The fact is that no further semantics or interpretations based on what we already have can clear this cloud of uncertainty which has now haunted me for almost a year (yes, I've been thinking about this on and off for about a year). For the time being I am leaning towards Materia not being bad for the Planet, but I admit the possibility that I am leaning in the wrong direction.
-------------------------------------------------------
If it turns out that the use of Materia drains/consumes/destroys the Planet's spirit energy, then I will be displeased. Not only at how the lore suddenly became needlessly complicated but also at what was required to figure out that Materia is bad. Thusly, I end this long post with a quote from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, because it expresses what I think about page 86 of the Reunion Files.
"But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."
"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."
"But the plans were on display ..."
"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
"That's the display department."
"With a flashlight."
"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."
"So had the stairs."
"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"
"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."
^^That's not a good thing given as he's the main source of a lot of info on the Planet/Lifestream.
I'll admit that a large part of the reason I don't hold with the "using materia = bad for the Lifestream" idea is because everything the Lifestream does is done with it's own longevity in mind. Omega/Chaos help it survive if it has to leave the Planet for some reason, the Weapons were made to destroy Jenova, even Holy (a spell cast with materia at that) is capable of wiping out the Human race if that's what would help the Lifestream the most. It just seems really counter-intuitive for the Lifestream to be able to form materia at all if that didn't help it in some way.
Another reason is that almost all the lines that indicate materia is bad for the Lifestream are not part of the game proper, but are given by Word of God and are part of the tutorial (which is skip-able, not that that means anything). It's not a case of where is was hinted at throughout the game and then a confirmation was finally given. Instead, it just screws further with the in-game lore.
And great Hitchihiker's quote; that will indeed be the situation if this turns out to be true.
Dipsiel is correct. I made the same mistake as the official localization when I looked at it -- i.e. overlooking the "ha" particle between "Shin-Ra" and "materia." That one little particle makes for a world of difference.
With it, Shin-Ra is the subject of the sentence, and the associated verbs directed toward the affected nouns are Shin-Ra's actions. Without the particle, Cloud and the party are the subject of the sentence because of the Japanese language's ability to forego the use of pronouns.
Shademp said:
This makes sense to me. Bugenhagen's line is only available when the Huge Materia missions are happening. This means that Bugenhagen is likely referring to the Huge Materia that Shinra are using, and how the Planet would be weakened by having these Materia blown up.
Admittedly, a clear distinction is not made here if Bugenhagen is talking about Shinra's "use-rocket-packed-with-Materia-to-destroy-Meteor" or Shinra's general use of Materia. But looking at the point in the game when he has this script, my intuition tells me that he is referring to the act of destroying Materia as being what hurts the Planet. Hence why Cloud & Friends must stop the Materia from being disintegrated.
That does seem to be what he is referring to. If materia should be returned to the Planet, as Cloud mentioned, then using it in this fashion would forever remove its spirit energy.
Shademp said:
If one thusly accepts the retranslation and my subsequent interpretation of this script, our number of relevant quotes (in this particular discussion) go down from three to two. These two being Cloud's line in the Intermediate Hall and Nomura's statement on page 86 in the Reunion Files.
This does make for a slight difference. With Bugenhagen's line as it was before, I would insist that using materia unequivocally drains the life force of the planet.
I actually still believe it, because it only makes sense, but it's slightly less simple to argue now.
Shademp said:
STEP 4)
Find justifications for each time the party (or any other environmentally friendly character) uses Materia, or proposes its use, in a post-OG story? Justifications that, here too, is a topic the characters never raise themselves. Where is the agreement (and how is it worded) on when it is right to use Materia versus when it is not?
Actually, the characters do raise objections about this and discuss what kind of materia is okay to use at the beginning of Case of Yuffie:
Realizing she had forgotten something very important, Yuffie raised her voice. She had almost forgotten the whole purpose of her journey.
“Can I have all the- No, I mean can I just have half of all the materia? I’ll bring them back to Wutai with me and keep them in safe custody. Well, I’ll use them too maybe. Just a little."
The eyes of all her comrades gathered on her. She loved to be the center of attention but this time she felt a little guilty. She continued to speak in an effort to hide that guiltiness.
...
“What do you think, Barret?”
Cloud had suddenly turned round to ask him. Why the hell are you asking Barret for? Yuffie thought but remained silent.
“Hmmmm—” mused Barret. “It’s true that Yuffie’s a good friend of ours. But it’s a whole different matter when it comes to materia, isn’t it?"
“No it isn’t! It’s the same. The same! I know it may be all over now that we’ve defeated Sephiroth but, I have a great dream and that’s to restore Wutai. To do that, having materia is crucial.”
“Restoration eh—”
This time it was Cid who piped in. Shut up old man! Yuffie glared at him.
“If that’s what you need it for, isn’t Midgar much worse off?”
“You’re right.”
After agreeing with Cid, Cloud fell in thought.
“Hey, Yuffie. How about this? We’ll give you all the materia.”
“Alright!”
“But I keep it in safe custody.”
“Er— Are you trying to trick a child here! ”
Thinking she was being made a fool, she stood up tall in protest.
“You got it all wrong. Most of our materia are used for battle right? It really won’t be of much use for Wutai. So we’ll just share the ones that will be of use in healing and I’ll keep the rest. I think I’m the one that’s the most experienced when it comes to dangerous materia.”
Even amongst the group, there seems to be some stigma about using materia now that Sephiroth is out of the picture.
Otherwise, why would Yuffie feel guilty? Why would Barret object to letting a friend have any, even to help restore her homeland? Why would Cloud decide that it's okay to use the healing materia but that the destructive stuff should be isolated?
Shademp said:
Disregard the oddity that nature creates Materia naturally, despite Materia supposedly being a danger to itself. This is admittedly the most shaky observation and the Planet can be argued to make a lot of things that are bad for itself, but I think many will agree that the lore feels like it is written in an ugly way if it produces weapons of mass destruction and then hopes that the infernal humans don't end up using it.
To be honest, though, that's kind of where we are anyway with Meteor. The Planet saw Meteor as a bad thing, but the Black Materia still exists. Either, as Force suggested, the Planet has no direct control over the formation of materia (which is what I believe) or the Planet didn't directly provide the power that was used in Meteor's casting (i.e. all that spirit energy became Sephiroth's own to use like the planet would have) -- or both. They're not mutually exclusive possibilities.
Whatever the case with the mechanics of the Black Materia's function, we really can't assume the Planet is smart enough to look out for itself. It's compared to a child within the narrative, and it behaves in a rather knee-jerk fashion. By which I mean it's kind of stupid.
Humans were trying to save the Planet from Sephiroth and Meteor, yet the Weapons were unleashed. So, yeah, the Planet isn't very smart.
Shademp said:
If it was not clear before, the above should make it clear why I think that a version of FFVII lore where Materia consumes the Planet's spirit energy is a very troublesome one. STEP 2, where some of us might conclude that restorative Materia is less taboo than destructive Materia, leads us to icky topics like 'gun control'. If WRO wants to restore the world, should they ban Materia? But if they did, they take away a means for people to defend themselves. What if Choco Billy gets eaten by the Midgar Zolom because he wasn't allowed to use a Lightning/Thunder Materia like during the days of Shinra? Then Choco Bill (the father) is going to be really pissed off. The topic gets very...icky. (I mention the Materia-ban idea because it's a post-DoC idea I've read before, but I of course don't assume that everybody agrees that a Materia ban would happen)
I've never felt like there would be an out-and-out ban on materia post-DoC (except perhaps where materia that had been manufactured by Shin-Ra is concerned?), but with the people's fear of using the Planet's energy now, I would not at all be surprised if it became taboo. So while there wouldn't be a legal issue, there would be a social stigma.
Truthfully, it would be weird if there wasn't a social stigma attached to using materia at this point.
At the very least, I think they would attach such a view to the use of Shin-Ra's materia, which is considered unnatural in every sense of speaking. From Case of Yuffie:
Shinra’s research, technology and knowledge of the planet’s life allowed them to bestow “powers” into the materia Cloud and his party possessed that wasn’t possible to produce naturally.
It's both artificially produced and has been tinkered with through experimentation to produce abilities that would rarely, if ever, show up in nature.
Shademp said:
Let's clear the part of the quote that certainly is not true.
"Yuffie collects them, but that's just because she lives to collect things (laughs)."
First item: Near the end of Advent Children, Yuffie shouts in Cloud's direction that she has brought Materia. I always interpreted this as her bringing the Matera for Cloud to use. Even if you find a way to interpret this scene in any other way, the second item is all we need...
Second item: In Case of Yuffie, published in 2009, Yuffie uses restorative Materia on those who were injuried when the rise of the Lifestream damaged the buildings in Wutai. You can read about it here
Third item: At the start of CoY, Yuffie argues that she needs Materia to help with Wutai's restoration.
This characterization of Yuffie by Kazushige Nojima goes against Tetsuya Nomura's claim that Yuffie has Materia ONLY because she likes to collect things. If only for the fact that Case of Yuffie is more recent than the Reunion Files (2009 versus 2005) I think Nojima's writing takes precedence here.
They aren't necessarily mutually exclusive details, though. Yuffie was using materia in the immediate wake of Meteorfall, and only the curative materia Cloud allowed her to have. She isn't necessarily still using it at the time of Advent Children, except in that desperate case where she was bringing it to Cloud.
For that matter, Yuffie comes off as more willing to use the materia than the rest of the group in general.
I think Nojima's writing in Case of Yuffie clarifies what Nomura said in the Reunion Files. Using materia is harmful to the planet, yes, but deemed okay under certain circumstances. That's what I'm getting from the opening portion of Case of Yuffie that I quoted above.
Shademp said:
WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?!!
My biggest problem is not how the 'ancient power source' is a very convenient story device, but Nomura's attitude. "I guess the airship must be" makes it sound like he made up the idea on the spot. I hope that this offensive attitude about lore construction is caused by a misrepresenting translation. If the way-too-casual attitude is there in the Japanese quote, then I am sorely disappointed in Nomura.
It really depends on which way you take his use of "omoimasu" whether he's saying "I guess." It could be "I think" or "I feel like" -- the latter being roughly the same as "I guess," I guess. =P
I don't think it's necessarily something he just came up with on the spot.
Shademp said:
If we did not have the NPC in Dirge of Cerberus who confirms the "ancient power source" thing, I would be *tempted* to dismiss this part of the quote.
...
Makes you wonder... Did Nomura in 2005 (or late 2004?) make up the ancient power source idea on the spot during the interview, then had it entered as part of the mythos via Dirge of Cerberus (2006) one year later?
I think that's just meant to hammer home that the ship's design is Spiran in origin. After all, Kitase had said in the FFX Ultimania Omega (January 2002) that future projects would build the VII-X connection.
Shademp said:
The interpretation that tells us the use of Materia drains the Planet's life. The claim that the party doesn't use Materia has already been disproven, as we see by Yuffie offering and using Materia. Vincent also uses the Protomateria, both before and during Dirge of Cerberus. The question is also begged why Cloud kept a box full of destructive Materia in Advent Children, if he never had any intention to use it. If it was important not to use Materia, the contents of the box would have been returned to the Planet. It is possible to accept the claim that Cloud and his friends purposefully "limit" their reliance on Materia, but Nomura speaks of a complete non-use, not a certain undefined level of constraint.
Vincent's use of the protomateria is somewhat necessary to him not being a raging beast, so I don't think we should count that. Actually, I don't even think he has to actively do anything to use it. Just the presence of the materia in his body seems to have the needed effect.
Agreed that the box of materia should have been disposed of, though. Maybe Cloud thought it would be risky to get rid of it in case they needed it to save the world again. No idea.
Whatever the case, they certainly aren't relying on it in either Advent Children or Dirge. Granted, Vincent can use it in Dirge, and Yuffie uses it to momentarily blind Rosso while she rescues Vincent, but neither use particularly powerful orbs.
And they were trying to save lives again, so that merits an overlook.
I find it very notable, though, that the WRO army isn't making use of materia when they launch an invasion against Deepground. Just guns. Despite going up against a mako-enhanced army (some of whom use materia), and four of the most powerful beings on Gaia (who themselves have no problems using materia; both Shelke and Azul used some).
Even the other members of AVALANCHE are once again just relying on their own abilities, despite having the opportunity of forethought to bring materia along to this battle between armies for the sake of the Planet.
That says a lot right there. Whatever the reason, people aren't using materia as casually as they once did.
Excellent post, Tres, I agree with everything there.
Really, Cloud's quote in Intermediate Hall has always meant that to me. Why else would fighting for the Planet preclude you from holding a lot of Materia?
The black and white Materia may have been a result of Cetra cultivating, or they did just happen somewhere incredibly rich in mako and they discovered them. But either way, yeah I think the formation of materia is just like the formation of gemstones and geodes on Earth.
To nobody's surprise, I never interpreted the scene between Yuffie & Friends in the Forgotten City the way Tres just described. Here is how I see it.
Realizing she had forgotten something very important, Yuffie raised her voice. She had almost forgotten the whole purpose of her journey.
“Can I have all the- No, I mean can I just have half of all the materia? I’ll bring them back to Wutai with me and keep them in safe custody. Well, I’ll use them too maybe. Just a little."
The eyes of all her comrades gathered on her. She loved to be the center of attention but this time she felt a little guilty. She continued to speak in an effort to hide that guiltiness.
...
“Hmmmm—” mused Barret. “It’s true that Yuffie’s a good friend of ours. But it’s a whole different matter when it comes to materia, isn’t it?"
...
“You got it all wrong. Most of our materia are used for battle right? It really won’t be of much use for Wutai. So we’ll just share the ones that will be of use in healing and I’ll keep the rest. I think I’m the one that’s the most experienced when it comes to dangerous materia.”
The feeling of guilt comes from having the audacity to request for the Materia after she once gave the team trouble by stealing all of their Materia.
Cloud & team knows that Yuffie is obsessed with Materia and wants to use it to restore the glory of Wutai. But providing Wutai with destructive Materia as a means to strengthen the land is a very dubious goal, as it would strengthen their military. It makes sense to me that Cloud & team would not want to be part of supplying power in a way that could impact the political landscape. Taking only restorative Materia is a much less questionable thing to do.
I can't say for certain, but it is possible that the line "Well, I’ll use them too maybe" could be translated as "Well, we'll use them too maybe" thus enforcing the point that bringing back the Materia has consequences not just for her, but for Wutai. But even if this translation possibility does not exist, my stance remains the same.
When Yuffie stutters about using the Materia "maybe just a little", she is trying to make it sound like the Materia won't be used for war or anything else that could be considered bad.
This is how I always interpreted the scene. Based on Yuffie's past actions and her obsessive goal to make Wutai into more than a restort town, I feel that this explains the scene at the beginning of CoY.
I sense no reason to change this interpretation. Nojima takes the time to explain many things (albeit very briefly at times) about the FFVII world in the On the Way to a Smile series. He has a perfect chance in this first scene of CoY to explain that 'Materia uses up the Planet's spirit energy and so it is always a bitter trade-off for those who want to protect the Planet'. Yet I don't find such a passage. He omits any explanations of this kind in the Materia- and Mako centred chapters of Case of Barret, Yuffie & Nanaki. This lack of a clear reference to Materia as something that is just as bad as Mako Reactors (albeit on a smaller scale) screams at me and only fuels my paranoia.
------------------------------ WRO & Deepground
As a point-starter, take a look at the Attack on Midgar FMV. No side uses magic. Both sides only use artillery. Quite surprising as you'd expect a battle field in FFVII to be rife with magical attacks, but this is not the presentation that was chosen. Not even for Deepground.
It is true that WRO are not shown using Materia. But for the sake of comparison, how often does Materia clearly get used by Deepground?
When you fight against Deepground soldiers in Kalm, the Wasteland, Edge, the jungle, WRO HQ, Shinra Mansion and Midgar your opponents use non-magical artillery. First when you enter Deepground will you come across soldiers that have barrier fields that can only be penetrated via close combat or by using bullets fueled by magic. We are not told if this barrier comes from a Materia or some tech, but for simplicity let's assume that they are using Barrier Materia. Shelke carries a Shield Materia, which she uses here.
Interesting that her Shield Materia acts as something that stops the enemy in their tracks; it does not work like this in the original game. Also, look how the Materia pops out of existence in Shelke's hand at 2:52. Pocket dimensions are so convenient.
The point I'm making is that for a super-powered army with soldiers that receive constant supplies of mako, the game presents us with extremely few displays of Materia use and none of them are based on destruction. Vincent does not have to dodge Firaga, Thundaga or Blizzaga at any time. Again, this is surprising when the Deepground army *should* have big supplies of Materia.
The lack of Materia use comes from a focus on a different aesthetic. This is the same reason, I believe, that we don't see Cloud & team using it. Their weapons and their moves are their signatures. Materia is not. I honestly can't blame the game staff here. Seeing Cloud come swinging through a Mako stream, Tifa kicking a Deepground soldier, Barret firing away using his gatling gun(s) etc all are attempts to show the characters the way that we want to see them. I think this to be true for Advent Children as well. The lack of Materia use is thusly, in my speculation, an oversight. Why else would Deepground be so almost devoid of Materia?
For the above reasons, I cannot take the lack of shown Materia use by WRO or Cloud & Team as proof of anything. The WRO are designed be to shown off as weak in comparison to Deepground, and the shortest path to do this is to show just how ineffective their guns are. I am surprised, yet again, that we receive no confirmation via the game script that WRO abstain from using Materia (or severely limit its use). In canon they *could* be using Materia very often, it just so happened we were not shown this. Without the game script to confirm things for us, I remain in limbo.
------------------------------ Materia slots?
It just occurred to me that years ago people on FFVII forums commented on Cloud's AC swords not having any Materia slots, and that this was an intentional direction by Nomura to emphasize that Cloud refrains from using Materia. Does anybody know of any interview where Nomura confirmed this? Or is this just a fanon interpretation?
If such a quote exists and it specifically says that the No-Materia-Slot weapons are part of this "don't-hurt-the-Planet-by-using-Materia" goal, then I will be forced to stop arguing the issue. I will still be irked by the subject because of my paranoia that Nomura just has no idea what he is talking about, but we are unlikely to find any statements by Yoshinori Kitase or Kazushige Nojima on the matter. So, in an attempt to not mimic the frantic denial that occurs among CloudxAerith fans in the LTD discussion, I will in that scenario have to accept that whether or not it was canon before the Compilation, Nomura will have MADE it canon that Materia takes from the Planet's life.
On its own, without additional lore material, Cloud's new swords having no Materia slots can't be used as an argument.
------------------------------ Any more quotes?
If Materia is bad for the Planet's total sum of spirit of energy, then there should be more references to this in guide books. My position remains that the Reunion Files quote and that the Intermediate Hall quote can both be interpreted in different ways, boiling down to the "bad excuse" explanation. So to shake my stance, more references need to be found.
If the WRO are purposefully shying away from using Materia, then there should be a reference to this in the "Dirge of Cerberus: FFVII – Official Complete Guide". I don't have the book and thus can't take photographs it. Would be nice if somebody could take a look through the parts of this book that speak of the WRO and Materia.
I took a few photos of pages from FF Vol 2 The Complete Works (an Ultimania-esque book from when DigiCube acted as distributors for Square merchandise) that *might* hold what we are looking for. I honestly have no idea, I just know the pages are about magic. In case anybody wants to take a shot at translating...
Page 160: Full page, upper segment, lower segment.
Page 171 (took this shot MANY times, but this is the best I got) : Version A, Version B.
Also here, from the "FFVII True Script Dissection – The Complete".
Page 37: Materia description
Page 38: Upper, middle, lower (<--only seems to talk about AP growth though)
Need to get myself multiple copies of more books and buy a scanner...
I have scans of the Ultimania Omega, but I honestly couldn't find a page that looked more like any other that it could hold the reference I'm looking for. Other than that we have the obvious series of books that might hold a reference: 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Crisis Core Ultimania, Crisis Core The Complete Guide, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania, Memorial Ultimanias etc.
I realize it is highly unlikely that anybody will look through these books (or the pages that I photographed and uploaded) but I have to show that I am trying my best to help this discussion. It is a terrible handicap that I can not read Japanese.
To make myself clear, the type of description we are looking for is that using Materia clearly "drains" the Planet. A formulation like "using the power of the Planet" does not specify if the process destroys spiritual energy or not.
------------------------------------ The challenge to confirm a disproving of a claim
When searching through books, we can only hope to find a quote that says "Using Materia drains the Planet's life". There is no reason for a passage to suddenly deny this claim, if it has never at all been relevant in the mythos.
The only channel through which there is equal opportunity for a positive or a negative statement, is to ask the minds behind FFVII. These would be Tetsuya Nomura, Yoshinori Kitase and/or Kazushige Nojima. These have acted as writers and directors for FFVII titles and are the most apparent head figures that come to mind. Other potentially important figures would be:
- Takeshi Nozue, who co-directed Advent Children
- Yusuke Naora, art director of the original FFVII, Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus
Hironobu Sakaguchi I'm not sure of if he even qualifies. Kazushige Nojima only works as a freelancer for Square, true, but at least he has been known to write FFVII and has been active in recent years. I dunno.
Because of the multiple number of people involved in the making of the official FFVII-verse, it is impossible to know for sure who is the most trustworthy keeper of FFVII canon. Would we trust the words of a person who might have acted as the editor of FFVII guide books, but never been involved with developing any of the titles? Anyway, we have to work with what we got. Is there any way we may contact any of these people directly? Do they have twitter accounts? Is it possible to contact people on their twitter accounts? I have no idea, since I've never used twitter.
It would be most satisfying to get a response from one specific figurehead of the FFVII franchise, rather than sending a mail to the company as-a-whole. Suggestions? Help me out here, please.
I have only quickly read through this and am pretty tired now, but quick little points that I don't think have been brought up yet:
- I would disagree that Bugenhagen is saying materia will weaken the planet, but rather it shouldn't be done because the planet is already in a weakened state. Hence why he says 弱っている and not something like 弱っていく or 弱める.
- by 'using as a weapon', he is referring to the middle warhead here, I think? It's one thing to use materia, but another to permanently blow up a piece of the planet's life force (Cloud's line about 'returning materia to the planet' sounds like there is some way to get materia back to its original non-crystal state)
- when Cloud says he 'doesn't care'? about carrying too much materia (despite having said '...against *my* beliefs' just before it), I disagree with that. I would say that line is more 'it isn't my idea/thoughts, as for who said that [thing about carrying too much materia] I'll let you imagine'. (I took that as being Barrett's philosophy personally)
To nobody's surprise, I never interpreted the scene between Yuffie & Friends in the Forgotten City the way Tres just described. Here is how I see it.
The feeling of guilt comes from having the audacity to request for the Materia after she once gave the team trouble by stealing all of their Materia.
Cloud & team knows that Yuffie is obsessed with Materia and wants to use it to restore the glory of Wutai. But providing Wutai with destructive Materia as a means to strengthen the land is a very dubious goal, as it would strengthen their military. It makes sense to me that Cloud & team would not want to be part of supplying power in a way that could impact the political landscape. Taking only restorative Materia is a much less questionable thing to do.
I guess it won't come as a surprise that I never took it that way myself.
I won't say that couldn't be the case, but would that really be such a big concern? Shin-Ra was crushed at that point, and Wutai had no other enemies. One doesn't get the impression that they were warmongering or had any interest in conquest. Crisis Core gives the sense that national soveignty was a very important concept to Wutai. I don't think they wanted anything but to be left alone.
Shademp said:
I sense no reason to change this interpretation. Nojima takes the time to explain many things (albeit very briefly at times) about the FFVII world in the On the Way to a Smile series. He has a perfect chance in this first scene of CoY to explain that 'Materia uses up the Planet's spirit energy and so it is always a bitter trade-off for those who want to protect the Planet'. Yet I don't find such a passage. He omits any explanations of this kind in the Materia- and Mako centred chapters of Case of Barret, Yuffie & Nanaki. This lack of a clear reference to Materia as something that is just as bad as Mako Reactors (albeit on a smaller scale) screams at me and only fuels my paranoia.
And I'm not saying Nomura couldn't be wrong. He has been before about stuff. For instance, he and Kitase both said that the opening to Dirge of Cerberus would explain where Vincent and Yuffie were during the ending of the original game.
I'm just hesitant to disregard the quote when it seems to make so much sense in light of that exchange in Case of Yuffie, and in light of the protagonists foregoing the use of materia in situations that should demand it (Advent Children and Dirge).
Shademp said:
As a point-starter, take a look at the Attack on Midgar FMV. No side uses magic. Both sides only use artillery. Quite surprising as you'd expect a battle field in FFVII to be rife with magical attacks, but this is not the presentation that was chosen. Not even for Deepground.
It is true that WRO are not shown using Materia. But for the sake of comparison, how often does Materia clearly get used by Deepground?
When you fight against Deepground soldiers in Kalm, the Wasteland, Edge, the jungle, WRO HQ, Shinra Mansion and Midgar your opponents use non-magical artillery. First when you enter Deepground will you come across soldiers that have barrier fields that can only be penetrated via close combat or by using bullets fueled by magic. We are not told if this barrier comes from a Materia or some tech, but for simplicity let's assume that they are using Barrier Materia. Shelke carries a Shield Materia, which she uses here.
Interesting that her Shield Materia acts as something that stops the enemy in their tracks; it does not work like this in the original game. Also, look how the Materia pops out of existence in Shelke's hand at 2:52. Pocket dimensions are so convenient.
The point I'm making is that for a super-powered army with soldiers that receive constant supplies of mako, the game presents us with extremely few displays of Materia use and none of them are based on destruction. Vincent does not have to dodge Firaga, Thundaga or Blizzaga at any time. Again, this is surprising when the Deepground army *should* have big supplies of Materia.
It really is odd that Deepground doesn't make use of materia more. As you said, they should have tons of the crap, and the player passes rooms full of it on the way to the elevator that takes Vincent to Deepground.
Shademp said:
The lack of Materia use comes from a focus on a different aesthetic. This is the same reason, I believe, that we don't see Cloud & team using it. Their weapons and their moves are their signatures. Materia is not. I honestly can't blame the game staff here. Seeing Cloud come swinging through a Mako stream, Tifa kicking a Deepground soldier, Barret firing away using his gatling gun(s) etc all are attempts to show the characters the way that we want to see them.
If that is the reason, I think it was a huge mistake. Honestly, that's not at all the way I wanted to see them. I wanted to see materia being used left and right, with the characters making creative use of their signature moves/weapons in conjunction with the materia.
Given how much materia sees use in fanfiction, one would think that was what the majority of fans wanted to see as well.
To me, it was a huge wasted opportunity how little materia was used in the Compilation. Advent Children especially.
Shademp said:
I think this to be true for Advent Children as well. The lack of Materia use is thusly, in my speculation, an oversight. Why else would Deepground be so almost devoid of Materia?
You are probably correct. Still, this wouldn't be the first time the developers inserted plot-related reasons for a gameplay restriction or other artistic decision. There's the 200-materia limit, only three people being able to pass through a Time Gate in Chrono Trigger, the explanation of MP in Case of Yuffie, summons pulling enemies into their own private dimensional space, Limit Breaks/Trance being a surge in spirit energy/emotion, pyreflies assisting Blitzball players with maintaining stamina, etc.
Sometimes these things actually get mentioned in the work itself, sometimes they don't (there's examples of both on the list).
I could certainly understand dismissing a comment that doesn't hold water/openly conflicts with the work as presented, but given that this comment from Nomura was likely intended to explain why we see what we see, it isn't without basis.
Yes, Yuffie and Vincent have used materia since the original game, but we are talking about Yuffie and Vincent here.
Shademp said:
For the above reasons, I cannot take the lack of shown Materia use by WRO or Cloud & Team as proof of anything. The WRO are designed be to shown off as weak in comparison to Deepground, and the shortest path to do this is to show just how ineffective their guns are. I am surprised, yet again, that we receive no confirmation via the game script that WRO abstain from using Materia (or severely limit its use). In canon they *could* be using Materia very often, it just so happened we were not shown this. Without the game script to confirm things for us, I remain in limbo.
This is an example of what I mean. Nomura's comment would seem to explain what we have been shown from an in-universe perspective, even if there's a real-world explanation that has more to do with artistic direction.
For instance, I would argue that the WRO don't use materia at all or we would have seen them doing so at the height of their greatest crisis, which was during Dirge.
Shademp said:
It just occurred to me that years ago people on FFVII forums commented on Cloud's AC swords not having any Materia slots, and that this was an intentional direction by Nomura to emphasize that Cloud refrains from using Materia. Does anybody know of any interview where Nomura confirmed this? Or is this just a fanon interpretation?
All I know of is Yusuke Naora wanting to call people's attention to the fact that the new sword lacked materia slots. I don't think he elaborated on the why.
Shademp said:
If the WRO are purposefully shying away from using Materia, then there should be a reference to this in the "Dirge of Cerberus: FFVII – Official Complete Guide". I don't have the book and thus can't take photographs it. Would be nice if somebody could take a look through the parts of this book that speak of the WRO and Materia.
I don't have this one, so I'm afraid I can't be of help on that count.
Shademp said:
I took a few photos of pages from FF Vol 2 The Complete Works (an Ultimania-esque book from when DigiCube acted as distributors for Square merchandise) that *might* hold what we are looking for. I honestly have no idea, I just know the pages are about magic. In case anybody wants to take a shot at translating...
Page 160: Full page, upper segment, lower segment.
Page 171 (took this shot MANY times, but this is the best I got) : Version A, Version B.
Also here, from the "FFVII True Script Dissection – The Complete".
Page 37: Materia description
Page 38: Upper, middle, lower (<--only seems to talk about AP growth though)
Yeah, that stuff is all about materia from a gameplay perspective.
Shademp said:
I have scans of the Ultimania Omega, but I honestly couldn't find a page that looked more like any other that it could hold the reference I'm looking for. Other than that we have the obvious series of books that might hold a reference: 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Crisis Core Ultimania, Crisis Core The Complete Guide, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania, Memorial Ultimanias etc.
I don't have either Crisis Core book, but the rest don't seem to offer anything about draining the Planet. I'll take a closer look at the Ultimania Omega, but I don't have any reason to believe it's going to turn up anything.
Shademp said:
To make myself clear, the type of description we are looking for is that using Materia clearly "drains" the Planet. A formulation like "using the power of the Planet" does not specify if the process destroys spiritual energy or not.
What are your feelings about what happens when materia is used? I know you're trying to avoid getting into anything inductive, but I am curious as to what you believe happens.
To me, something (anything) happening means energy is being used, whether it's somebody lifting a bag of potato chips, a mako engine making a car run, or materia allowing someone to engulf a Vorpal Bunny in flame. In every case, the energy has to come from somewhere, so what do you believe that process is like where materia is concerned?
Shademp said:
The only channel through which there is equal opportunity for a positive or a negative statement, is to ask the minds behind FFVII. These would be Tetsuya Nomura, Yoshinori Kitase and/or Kazushige Nojima. These have acted as writers and directors for FFVII titles and are the most apparent head figures that come to mind. Other potentially important figures would be:
- Takeshi Nozue, who co-directed Advent Children
- Yusuke Naora, art director of the original FFVII, Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus
Hironobu Sakaguchi I'm not sure of if he even qualifies. Kazushige Nojima only works as a freelancer for Square, true, but at least he has been known to write FFVII and has been active in recent years. I dunno.
Because of the multiple number of people involved in the making of the official FFVII-verse, it is impossible to know for sure who is the most trustworthy keeper of FFVII canon. Would we trust the words of a person who might have acted as the editor of FFVII guide books, but never been involved with developing any of the titles? Anyway, we have to work with what we got. Is there any way we may contact any of these people directly? Do they have twitter accounts? Is it possible to contact people on their twitter accounts? I have no idea, since I've never used twitter.
It would be most satisfying to get a response from one specific figurehead of the FFVII franchise, rather than sending a mail to the company as-a-whole. Suggestions? Help me out here, please.
I wish I knew how to contact these people. I would have been asking them questions for years now.
But one thing I can help with. According to Kitase, Nojima is the top authority on the story, Nomura is the guy for questions specific to characters and designs, and Naora is the guy for art direction (which I guess would constitute the world designs):
To add to the "energy being used" idea... in physics, energy isn't created or destroyed, it instead changes forms. IE: potential engergy to kinetic energy.
In FFVII terms: mako reactors turn the energy in the Lifestream into electrical energy. The bad part about this change in form is that it isn't reversible. But this might not hold true for magic use as every living thing on the Planet turns back into mako energy eventually which eventually turns into something living again.
If I was Yuffie, I would want to take destructive materia with me to Wutai and not because I wanted my nation to have more firepower vs. humans. I'd want it because the monsters around my hometown aren't exactly small fry and because the average person wouldn't last a minute against them. The FFVII world isn't like Earth where humans are on the top of the food chain; instead they're in the middle. Materia levels the playing field a lot.
Random thoughts
Slots... are these a gamplay mechanic or not? Because if they aren't and humans do need them to use materia in the first place, where do they come from, how are they made, and what are they made of? Essentially, they let people access the information in the Lifestream and without them, materia is worthless. The fact that materia is sold indicates that slots are really common. If they're man-made and not naturally occuring, I'd be more concerned about slots being made then materia being used as normal humans can't use materia without slots. However, we've seen people using materia without slots, but nearly all of them have been exposed to large quantities of mako.
Items... most of these mimic the effects of materia, but without the MP cost, so where does the energy in the item come from? We actually do know what all the items look like, and a lot of them don't look man-made IE
. Given that you can steal items from monsters... I'd say a case could be made for items ultimately coming from the Lifestream as well.
I just think that if using materia is as bad as a mako reactor, it would have been clearly mentioned in OTWTAS. Instead materia is barly mentioned at all and there are numerous ways you could view the scenes where it is mentioned.
A quick look at the general story/terminology analysis part of the Ultimania Omega doesn't seem to reveal anything. I suppose it's possible that something could be mentioned in the story playback section, but that is a lot more work to go through.
To go into a bit more detail about what I mentioned before:
Bugenhagen's last line here is saying that the planet is weakened enough as it is. Such as, it's already weak, and Shinra using materia as a weapon would only make matters worse?
ただでさえ - gives it the sense that even normally and without this current situation [materia as a weapon]
星が弱っている - the planet is in a state of being weak
のに…… - he kind of trails off and leaves the rest of the line unsaid; 'even though [the planet is already weak]...' (this will cause further problems/etc.)
Additionally, he is saying that they must somehow 'make [someone] stop' what they're doing. (In this case, Shinra and their plan with the materia.) やめさせなければ・ならない (やめさせる is causative, which means they are making someone else do something, rather than やめなければ・ならない (やめる which would be 'we much stop'. (Edit; ah, overlooked that this point was mentioned before.)
I don't really know where most of this translation comes from. The only part that really fits with the original line is the 'leave it up to [you] part', but even that is missing key elements.
もちろん、これは俺の考えじゃない - 'of course, this isn't my thoughts/opinion'
だれが言い出したかは - 'as for who said that first/proposed [it]'
想像に任せるよ - 'I'll leave that up to [your] imagination'
What do they use for fuel in this time period?
"Cloud and the gang certainly aren't using mako anymore, because it drains the life of the planet. That means they don't use Materia, either. Yuffie collects them, but that's just because she lives to collect things (laughs). I guess the airship must be running on some mysterious ancient power source." (Nomura)
To pick at this a little, he is technically saying that they aren't [presently] using mako or materia (…使っていない). Which might not mean that they will never use it ever. Perhaps just that they aren't routinely using it now? Such as using the offensive magics anymore?
Speaking as someone with no real in depth knowledge of the lore involved, I am going to say yes it does. The power it unleashes has to come form somewhere. Also I find the idea of our team of "heroes" being huge hypocrites hilarious.
Can I just say how much I've enjoyed reading this erudite conversation!
I suspect there will never be a definitive answer. The canon conflicts with itself.
What I like about the whole materia issue is how the people in the FFVII world don't fully understand what materia is and how it works, or what using it does to the Planet. Despite not fully knowing what they are doing, they use it anyway, and even discover a way to manufacture it. They blunder on, driven by a combination of greed, good intentions, and necessity. There is something fundamentally so human about their attitude, that for me it really speaks to the essence of the game.
Also, Enemy Skill materia. What's up with that? What freak of nature produces this one materia which contains no powers of its own but can absorb the essence of the attacks of others?
Yeah... Enemy Skill materia. This is what makes me think monster attacks (or at least the MP based ones) run along the same lines materia attacks do... How else is Enemy Skill materia supposed to know what attacks to learn? Unless it's a game mechanic like being able to only carry 200 materia and slots are?
And as monsters have MP and use it for certain abilities, is that a game mechanic as well, or could it mean that they access the Lifestream the same way people do? I can see why all the scientists wanted to study genetics/zoology in FFVII, all the monster life is really interesting...
^I'd love a XII-style bestiary in a VII remake. Hell, I want a XII-style bestiary in every RPG I ever play again.
Hawkeye said:
What are your feelings about what happens when materia is used? I know you're trying to avoid getting into anything inductive, but I am curious as to what you believe happens.
To me, something (anything) happening means energy is being used, whether it's somebody lifting a bag of potato chips, a mako engine making a car run, or materia allowing someone to engulf a Vorpal Bunny in flame. In every case, the energy has to come from somewhere, so what do you believe that process is like where materia is concerned?
In many fantasy worlds it usually does come from somewhere. In high fantasy ones it tends to come from gods of magic or some such.
And interesting thing that this discussion has me thinking about is a D&D setting called Dark Sun. Basically it's a post-apocalyptic D&D type world and all the gods have left. As such there are no gods to call upon and so there are two types of mages:
Preservers - These mages cast spells utilizing their own life force. They cause themselves physical harm when they cast a spell, but harm nothing else to gather energy.
Defilers - These mages pull the energy for their spells from the environment around them. Like if they were in a field of flowers they could cast a more powerful spell than they could in the desert, but all the flowers would wilt and rot around them at the casting of the spell.
Now, materia obviously don't hurt the Planet so directly and immediately. And I know the games don't apply to one another, but it keeps reminding me of it and it could be interesting to think about, at least.
Enemy Skill: my headcanon (which I don't normally have and am just making up now) is that since materia is the knowledge of the Ancients, maybe that materia is from an Ancient 'blue mage'.
Slots: some kind of man-made innovation to enhance the functionality of materia? I'm thinking particularly of linked slots. Then again, a lot of the materia you buy is made by Shinra so even if it is useless on its own (like 'All') they might have been made with this in mind. (Though I wouldn't think it'd matter to the planet if they had a practical use individually, it's just crystallised knowledge.)
^^But the All materia is the only blue materia you can buy and only for a short time from Fort Conder (of all places). Actually, the most powerful, useful, and unique materia (most of the ones that need linked slots to work) can't be bought, but are found in very out of the way locations.
My headcannon for materia usage is that its something humans have always been finding and using since the time of the Cetra, but that it was relatively rare. It only comes into mass use when Shinra gets the mako reactors up.
My headcannon for materia usage is that its something humans have always been finding and using since the time of the Cetra, but that it was relatively rare. It only comes into mass use when Shinra gets the mako reactors up.
What I like about the whole materia issue is how the people in the FFVII world don't fully understand what materia is and how it works, or what using it does to the Planet. Despite not fully knowing what they are doing, they use it anyway, and even discover a way to manufacture it. They blunder on, driven by a combination of greed, good intentions, and necessity. There is something fundamentally so human about their attitude, that for me it really speaks to the essence of the game.
What do I think this means? In short, it puts me closer to neutral territory in this topic.
The long story however requires that I summarize how magic (and spirit energy in general) has been treated throughout the Compilation and what questions it poses. Hopefully the small side-tracking discourses below can prevent the discussion from steering off into the wrong territory.
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Gameplay Observations
1) The post-mission rankings in Dirge of Cerberus reward you for finding all the Mako Points and for using magic
This should be considered an arbitrary gameplay element and not an argument for the position that the use of magic is "environmentally okay". The reasoning behind approving magic could be that it helps finish a mission faster, which in turn gives a higher ranking. Similarly, if there had been a penalty against magic, the intention could have been to simply add an extra layer of the challenge to gameplay, so this could not be used as an argument in this thread's topic. A penalty against magic would essentially mean that perfectionists never use Materia; I can definitely see the choice to approve magic as it prevents the game mechanic from becoming unused by players.
2) The variety of "Magic Point" systems throughout the Compilation
Original Game: MP
Search all you will, but you will not find it clearly defined in the game or in (at least the European) game manual that MP stands for "Magic Points". Cloud does in one tutorial say that "MP is the source of your magic power", but 'magic power' is used in another tutorial to describe the strength of your spells and not how much MP you got. HP is only defined as your "life force" in a tutorial.
We know of course that, by tradition, MP stands for Magic Points and HP stands for Health Points. This is perhaps confirmed in the more detailed, official guides.
Dirge of Cerberus: MP (again)
The in-game tutorials make it ambiguous whether MP stands for "Mako Points" or "Magic Points". The game manual makes the definition in one page that it does indeed stand for "Magic Points", but I can't say this without admitting to the criticism against game manuals. They are, apparently, not always written by the developers and so it is possible for false assumptions, outdated info etc to make their way into the final game's manual. But for lack of a better reference source (that I can actually READ) I will point to game manuals.
It is first in DoC that a direct relation between Mako and MP is made. Mako restores MP and powers Materia. MP is depleted when using Materia. Mako == MP, in this paradigm. But if this is so, then what does that make Ethers or Spirit Rations?
The question is here then posed why the WRO soldier would sell a nutritious diet supplement that the game only depicts as a means to restore MP; the source of magic use. I won't use this as an argument though, because it is not beyond my suspense of disbelief that a "restoration of spirit" has uses outside of Magic Point restoration, even if that is its only use gameplay-wise. In the paradigm that WRO shy away from Materia, I can also easily see the inclusion of Spirit Rations as an unintentional contradiction.
There is no point in questioning Ethers, naturally. Just like the measurement "MP", Ethers exist out of Final Fantasy tradition. They are not meant to inform us about the metaphysics pertaining specifically to the FFVII universe, so there is no reason for us to think that Ethers are bottles of Mako. Ethers are just *there*. And who knows, maybe a cup of coffee could increase your MP.
Crisis Core: SP, AP and MP
Here is where things get crazy. SP are Soldier Points and they are what keeps the DMW reels going; these in turn are responsible for leveling, limit breaks and summons.
From the Crisis Core (European) manual:
SOLDIER points indicate strength based on mako.
DMW results and defeating the enemy earn SP.
SOLDIER points are based on mako? In this context, mako is clearly a term for the spirit energy inherent in an individual, and not something that has to originate external from the "mako user".
AP and MP are never defined in-game, but are in the manual referred to as "Action Points" and "Magic Points" respectively. Some Materia consume AP, others consume MP. The developers clearly perceive that the mythos does not set limit on what type of source is to be depleted in exchange for the use of magical orbs. Action Points are also used for evading and blocking, which are non-magical maneuvers; the same source that uses magic, is also the one used for a physical action.
The Materia limit set in Crisis Core is 99, compared to the original game's list of 200 Materia (plus that which is equipped to weapons and armor). I can't see the number 99 as anything but an arbitrary in this case.
Before Crisis: MP (nothing to add here, moving on)
3) Limit Breaks
The original game does not define what Limit Breaks are, nor what energy source they draw upon. In Dirge of Cerberus, a limit break is activated by the item "Limit Breaker" but no further details are given as to what this item is.
When your spirit energy rises to its ultimate limit, for a short while it aligns with and emits from your body. Furthermore, Zack is unusual in that he can copy Limit Breaks, such as taking Aerith’s “Healing Wind” Limit Break from FFVII and turning it into his Limit Break “Healing Wave”. In the same way, Cloud takes his Limit Break “Meteor Rain” from the original Limit Break Zack created based on him called “Meteor Shot”.
The "alignment of spirit energy" sounds to me like typical magic-lingo, much like one would say that a person's chakras align and their chi is able to flow freely. I never interpreted this as having to do with some form of alignment with the Planet.
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Flavors of Mako
Spirit Energy is ubiquitous in the FFVII world. Just like Materia has different flavors, so Spirit Energy comes in many forms. This is in accordance with the FMV in Bugenhagen's observatory, where we see spirit energy of multiple colors flowing around the Planet (instead of just the green stuff).
Gameplay-wise I can then definitely see the justification in branching MP off to AP and SP. I also see it as justified that Limit Breaks, and indeed anything that a living entity in FFVII does, as being directly related to Spirit Energy.
Because all that lives has its own energy and is able to generate more, there are no moral qualms to be found with the use of limit breaks. At least this is my assumption based on the "necessity" of not making the mythos needlessly complicated.
But is it really so that a person's own Spirit Energy, their own Lifestream-like flow, can be called Mako like it is apparently done in the Crisis Core manual? I am slightly confused about this. In the observatory, Bugenhagen says the following:
Bugenhagen
“Everyday Mako reactors suck up
Spirit Energy, diminishing it.”
“Spirit Energy is compressed in reactors
and processed into Mako energy. All living
things are being used up and thrown away.”
“In other words, Mako energy
will only destroy the Planet…”
Mako energy, in this sentence, seems to require an unnatural procession in order to be made. Yet we also have the so called "Mako Fountain" in Mt. Nibel, which is certainly not a result of unnatural processes. I therefore don't deem it as unlikely that the description from Dirge of Cerberus that "Mako energy is used to power Materia" could refer to Vincent using "his own" Mako energy. It becomes a troubling question about definitions, because usually Mako is a term used for the unnatural extraction of spirit energy (but not exclusively so, as seen with the Mako Fountain).
But Vincent, in gameplay, steps on Mako Points external to himself. He uses the Planet's Mako in order to power Materia. If he did not use Materia, then all that would happen is a lossless distribution of Mako from the hot spot to his own body, right? I'm not sure it's that simple. Because Mako is an energy source for all living things, it could just as well be used to power Vincent's running and jumping (although this is not the case in gameplay). Then the life source would be turned into heat, presumably, which would be a loss only compensated by Vincent being his own generator of spirit energy, just like any other entity. We have to assume that this is the case especially in the paradigm that Mako == MP.
Are we also to assume that, canonically, there are Mako Points scattered around the world (aside from Mako Fountains), that people then use to power their Materia use? I am not sure, as this type of mechanic only exists in Dirge of Cerberus thus far.
Because of this long discourse above, I feel that the statement "Mako energy is used to power Materia" is not enough to settle the argument. It seems to say that Mako is depleted when Materia is used, but is that Mako energy that of the user or that of the Planet? Broadening the definition of Mako is a bit problematic, admittedly, but assuming that Materia (EDIT: and not just the Black Materia) draws and depletes Mako from the Planet and not just the user feels equally or more problematic to me still.
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Extra Observation
In Dirge of Cerberus PlayOnline Scene 09, during 03:22 and forward, we see Shelke using a technique called "Technical Cancel" which renders the enemy's techniques useless. In this case it cancels a user's limit break and apparently has the ability to change somebody's path (unclear if there's a translation error here). How this relates to Shelke splitting into 9 projections of herself is unknown to me. It kinda reminds you of Cloud's Omnislash Ver.6, doesn't it?
Shelke then says "However, it consumes a lot of magical power. But I am able to use it here due to the high concentration of Mako."
So Shelke used a technique that, as far as we can tell, does not employ Materia but that still uses Mako. Technical Cancel can then only be considered as a Limit Break or a "special move", which may or may not be possible due to her mental superpowers. From S&G's Deepground's History Revealed article:
While the primary benefits of SND that were recorded showed that Shelke was able to connect to the Worldwide Network while retaining her own consciousness to gather information, it was soon discovered that it was possible for her to enter other people’s minds and share thoughts and memories with them. Further investigation revealed the technique could be used not only to view and store data held within another person, but to artificially create memories or emotions.
By the sound of it, Technical Cancel is a technique that is possible only due to her special powers. The example here that Mako is directly related to "magical power", which is not Materia-based, is another case of Mako being directly associated with the use of Spirit Energy in a Limit-Break-esque fashion. I just find this noteworthy because the direct relationship between magical power = Mako = Spirit Energy seems to be further reinforced, even though the technique Technical Cancel requires the not-environmentally-friendly(?) use of forcefully extracted Mako.
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I realize that with this post I create more confusion than I clear away, but after dwelling on this post's content for over a week now I realize I can't go further on my own. Presently I've tilted closer to Tres's standpoint, but that only means that I'm now closer to neutral territory than I was before.
Because this post is already long enough, I'll wait until my next post to answer the questions posed to me here about two weeks about.
The "alignment of spirit energy" sounds to me like typical magic-lingo, much likeonewould say thata person's chakras align and their chi is able to flow freely. I never interpreted this as having to do with some form of alignment with the Planet.
I think the flowing free part is talking about the Aura's that come out when they activate their LB's.
Great write-up, Shademp. I'dr really like to see you compile all this research into a front-page article sometime.
Anywho, interesting and informative as the analysis is, as you said, it ultimately confuses the issue even more. The mechanics of the whole thing are boggling.
Only other comment I can really make is: How simple an explanation would it be if Dirge's mechanic were actually the case? Mako gets absorbed, becomes a persona's MP (this is the "mind waves" from Case of Yuffie? ) and then gets used to make materia actually do something with the crystallized knowledge contained within.
That would explain why one who doesn't wish to weaken the Planet would abstain from using materia -- it would require mako.
Of course, with everything else taken into account, we can't assume that this is all there is to it, nor does this fully explain to us what a person's MP is. If their MP is the "mental power" spoken of in Case of Yuffie, then it almost sounds like absorbed mako would be converted into these "mind waves" that a materia user emits to get the materia to do something.
But then that would still leave us questioning where the energy used by the materia came from! Is the power all there in the materia and it uses its power to perform the spell once trigger by the user's MP? Or does the materia make use of the user's MP for the spell (doesn't work for the reasons we've been over; e.g. Holy and the Black Materia)? Or does it still make use of ambient spirit energy in the environment?
This will be a front page article. There's too much awesome not to make one. I think there's still more to be discussed but if Shad doesn't want to do it I can always collate the detailed responses from everyone with narrative text between.
)
is causative, which means they are making someone else do something, rather than やめなければ・ならない (やめる
