Wait... in the OG, getting into mako was really dangerous because in adition to absorbing all that energy, you also had to maintain your identity vs. all the knowledge in the Lifestream. And in DoC you just absorb energy? Since when did the Lifestream get so tame?
I've been thinking about the way materia works in the OG and I've figured out why materia draining the Planet bothers me. Killing stuff while a materia is slotted (available to be used) causes it's AP to be raised. There isn't anyway to stop this. Once the materia has a certian level of AP, it "learns" more spells/spells can be cast more frequently/it augments abilities more, etc. Most of which result in using more MP over all. Not only that, if a materia gets enough AP, it makes a new materia, which starts the process all over again. Interestingly enough, this results in the Lifestream gaining more crystallized mako in the long term. As the whole "gaining new abilities and making more materia" can only be attributed to materia being crystallized mako, it makes me think the Lifestream doesn't mind people using the abilities in materia. If anything, it makes it easy to use abilities. We also haven't seen any evidence that OG materia can be turned back into mako; so once materia is formed, it's stuck.
If using materia hurt the Planet, I'd expect materia work more along the lines of "you can only use this x amount of times before it stops working", and it wouldn't keep making more of itself.
The materia isn't working on the Planet's order, or even sentient. It's just crystallized knowledge that lets you draw on the forces of nature. Why it would learn new abilities I'm not quite sure. But I'm not sure it has bearing either way on whether it's good for the Planet or not.
The Lifestream in Mako Reactors still "allows itself" to be used for energy, after all.
I wish I could say that I'm about to bring you all a post with some form of ordered narrative, but sadly I can not. I've been replaying Crisis Core, looking over ALL the DoC PlayOnline videos (even the ones that are gameplay, so not just the cutscenes) as well as dipped my nose in other Compilation material to try and illuminate issues both of this topic and others. All I have to present now though are interesting tidbits and responses to old questions/claims, but nothing that solves the issue at hand.
Additional commentary about FFVII's lack of anti-magic/anti-materia sentiments
Hawkeye said:
Truthfully, it would be weird if there wasn't a social stigma attached to using materia at this point.
At the very least, I think they would attach such a view to the use of Shin-Ra's materia, which is considered unnatural in every sense of speaking. From Case of Yuffie:
Case of Yuffie said:
Shinra’s research, technology and knowledge of the planet’s life allowed them to bestow “powers” into the materia Cloud and his party possessed that wasn’t possible to produce naturally.
If I subscribed to the interpretation that materia drains mako, then I would *consider* that a social stigma against materia is what should naturally follow in the post-OG narrative. But as I've stated earlier, this direction is not without its hick-ups, what-with the nigh impossibility of choosing the level of the stigma and how the stigma itself has never been clearly referenced inside the Compilation titles.
I disagree with the notion that materia is "considered unnatural in every sense of speaking". The quote from CoY, in my interpretation, uses the word "naturally" as something interchangeable with the word "normally".
Case of Yuffie said:
Shinra’s research, technology and knowledge of the planet’s life allowed them to bestow “powers” into the materia Cloud and his party possessed that wasn’t possible to produce naturally.
In order for materia to unnatural in every sense of speaking, there needs to be a clear view in the story of materia (and magic) as something "alien" or "taboo". Very much like how magic is at first seen as other-worldly and taboo in FFVI because it almost destroyed the world. From the FFXIII footage I've seen I get the impression that this world is scared of magic. We are shown this viewpoint in the two aforementioned FF titles, but never in FFVII do we see an NPC saying "magic is bloody scary, man!" or "magic is unnatural and should not be used".
Therefore I lean towards the CoY quote meaning that the Shinra-made materia is "not natural" in the purely practical sense that their power is above normal levels. Nothing in the story hints at these materia causing phobic responses from devotees of philosophies such as "the order of nature/God/the-planet" must be preserved.
Materia is unnatural but not in every sense.
---------------------------------------------------------- The Physics of FFVII (and other fictional universes with dualistic physics)
Edit: By "dualistic" I refer to the FFVII world being clearly defined into physical and mental substances.
(From Post#36: Hawkeye, 04/07/2013)
Hawkeye said:
What are your feelings about what happens when materia is used? I know you're trying to avoid getting into anything inductive, but I am curious as to what you believe happens.
To me, something (anything) happening means energy is being used, whether it's somebody lifting a bag of potato chips, a mako engine making a car run, or materia allowing someone to engulf a Vorpal Bunny in flame. In every case, the energy has to come from somewhere, so what do you believe that process is like where materia is concerned?
When thinking about materia and energy consumption, I realize the question can refer to one or two things.
The energy required to activate a materia
The energy required for the "knowledge of the Ancients" to trigger a spell
There is no doubt a mental aspect to the activation of materia. This is obvious thanks to Case of Yuffie and because magic is often associated with imagined "powers of the mind". I do not think that anybody in Square has overthought the issue so much that they wonder if Yuffie using her own mental energy is the equivalent of "deleting consciousness" by generating electricity via the depletion of mako. Philosophically they could be equated but realistically speaking the question is of no importance, as we've already stated that limit breaks and other motion that is purely self-generated should not fall into the "hurting the planet" category.
Triggering a spell is to use the knowledge of the Ancients. In my headcanon this process can go by the name of "alchemy", as alchemy in most fiction (and by the poor misled souls who think it to be real) means a mixture of mental power and an understanding of the natural world. The alchemy, whatever form it may take, relies on the natural, albeit esoteric, aspects of FFVII's metaphysics. Indulging myself fully in headcanon, here is what I think magic to be both in FFVII and in other magic-filled stories:
"The world of FFVII consists of virtual/mental atoms that can be changed at any point to a real atom, be it hydrogen or oxygen, if the power of the mind is strong enough to move the mental atom to the physical plane. Ancients were able to sense the elements and thusly knew what combination was needed to create fire, ice, lightning or what-have-you. It is this alchemic knowledge that is sealed within materia. Spending one's own mental energy is still required, but what the user is doing is tapping into the natural well of mental energy that exists in the FFVII-verse. The thing about mental reality though is that the fire, ice, water, lightning etc is only temporary unless constantly fueled. Virtual atoms may spawn into dihydrogen monoxide, but their existence is very brief and soon the "sprung-out-of-nowhere" water will return to virtual atoms and essentially vanish. This is why elemental magic can appear anywhere but why fictional universes that include such spells still may have trouble finding and storing water.
The inherent dualism of all fiction that allows magic is also there to explain the ease at which new realms can spring into being, like the fake realm of Sephiroth's Supernova attack, or the summon-realms that Zack end up in when fighting Ifrit or Bahamut in Crisis Core."
The word "alchemy" has never been used in the FFVII story though and I hope to never see it in there, as that would break the style of the world as it has been built so far. If this headcanon became actual canon I would be very displeased. Hopefully I've made it clear that in these two processes of materia use I do not see it as a logical necessity for mako to be drained and depleted when magic is summoned.
Let's also make it clear that the writers of FFVII and other Final Fantasies are not physicists. Conservation of energy will most of the time not concern the world builders. This reminds me of the "Mako Point" in Dirge of Cerberus. Instinctively, we might think of the process of stepping on a mako point as a small-scale version of killing the planet. Especially if the energy then fuels a materia. But is that really how far the game designers thought? I honestly doubt it. The designers wanted something to give the player magical energy, that could be integrated into the rating system and that also fits within the FFVII aesthetic. Because conservation and transformation of energy are not their primary concern, I can easily see the DoC mako points as having no intentional relevance on the topic of "is materia bad or not". The issue concerns them when mako reactors are involved, but elsewhere too? Which leads me to wonder. Do mako baths hurt the planet? Does Shelke hurt the planet when she "uses" mako to draw out her attack 'Technical Cancel'? I am not so sure.
Yes, I'm yet again masturbating the idea that the writers are lazy. Please forgive me for exercising this so often.
WARNING: The rest of this post does not add to the topic's discussion but simply adds observations I've made while replaying Crisis Core and researching the Compilation.
Diving into the Compilation material taught me that the terms "materia", "mako" and "planet" are not capitalized post-OG. Materia only capitalizes the first letter if in the beginning of a sentence or if the materia spoken of are the "Black Materia" or "White Materia". Same with mako, which is only capitalized when in part of a name like "Mako Reactor". I will follow the post-OG (Compilation) writing conventions.
Playing Crisis Core I was reintroduced to something I had utterly forgotten: "Mako Stones". I typed down the relevant script by a researcher in the Materia Room on the SOLDIER floor.
Researcher:
Materia is the concentrated essence of mako energy. But natural materia is practically nonexistant.
That's because special conditions must be met, in addition to the long years it takes to form. Most of the materia out
there was generated by either us or the Arms Development Department.
Researcher:
Naturally-formed materia are extremely rare, but
"mako stones" are relatively easy to obtain.
A mako stone is crystallized materia made of
concentrated mako energy.
By itself, it doesn't have the same effect as
materia, but we can process it into materia.
SOLDIER members occasionally go out
excavating for them. Maybe you should, too.
Researcher:
Every materia is filled with knowledge of the Ancients,
a race that has lived on this planet for a long time.
It's said the Ancients held the power to converse
with the planet.
They knew how to control the planet's power. This
knowledge is what ties us to the planet, creating magic.
By the way, it's presumed that the Ancients have
been extinct for some time now.
I am slightly bothered by the sentence "A mako stone is crystallized materia made of concentrated mako energy". I thought that materia was commonly referred to as crystallized mako. After some research I found that normally, the word in use is "condensed" and not "crystallized".
Sephiroth
“Materia.
When you condense Mako energy,
Materia is produced.”
Sephiroth
“This is a system that condenses and
freezes the Mako energy…
that is, when it's working correctly.”
“Now…what does Mako energy become
when it's further condensed?”
Cloud
“Uh, umm…Oh yeah!
It becomes Materia.”
The FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania refers to materia as "crystalline" objects. However it also refers to materia as being condensed mako. Source
Two things bother me about mako stones.
#1: If it takes a very long time for the planet to crystallize mako into materia it should take even longer for it to crystallize into mako stones, which are crystallized materia. With special conditions being required for materia to appear in the first place, I feel like mako stones should be even more rare. Then again it could be that the materia can only have magical function if it is not too dense. Mako stones might be "common" in the same way as diamonds and crystals are in our world. What I don't like is that mako stones complicate the lore needlessly and makes me wonder just what the heck it is in relation to materia and magic.
#2: If mako stones, inept "extra crystallized" materia, can be processed into functioning materia, how does that relate to the "knowledge of the Ancients"? Is the knowledge inside the mako stones, only it needs to be rearranged? How do you rearrange knowledge correctly? Argh.
There is actually a third thing that angers me about mako stones. In gameplay, each mako stone type exists in three levels. As follows:
LV1 -> LV2 -> LV3
ATK Mako Stone -> Power Stone -> Hero Drink
VIT Mako Stone -> Guard Stone -> Adamantite
MAG Mako Stone -> Magic Stone -> Dark Matter
SPR Mako Stone -> Mind Stone -> Mythril
LCK Mako Stone -> Luck Stone -> Gysahl Greens
HP Mako Stone -> HP Stone -> Fat Chocobo Feather
MP Mako Stone -> MP Stone -> Lunar Harp
AP Mako Stone -> AP Stone -> Zeio Nut
Crisis Core disappoints me here. It names the third-level mako stones after famous FFVII items for the sake of nostalgia but without any regard for logic. Why in the world refer stones to these objects? Mythril? Gysahl Green? Fat Chocobo Feather? Lunar Harp?! Gameplay does not always need to mirror the story, true enough, but to me these names are a display of laziness.
---------------------------------------------------------- Shelke's shield and Nero's darkness
At one point in DoC, Shelke is stuck within Nero's darkness. She protects herself using the Shield spell. The shield begins to crack, Shelke accepts that the end is coming, but then in the last minute Vincent arrives and saves her.
It might not be clearly pointed out, but my interpretation is that Nero's darkness is stagnant Lifestream. If so, and under the paradigm that mako fuels materia, then we have to assume that stagnant Lifestream can't feed either materia or Shelke's limit breaks.
Quote from S&G's article on the history of Deepground that makes me think Nero's darkness to be stagnant Lifestream:
One subsequent experimented used Grimoire’s data on stagnant lifestream to evaluate test subjects exposed to stagnant Mako while in fetal form. Out of numerous sacrifices only one survived to term; a child bearing the power of darkness, destined for a life of misery. At birth, the darkness that emanated from the baby was enough to absorb his mother – a brilliant and highly regarded scientist of Shinra – into the vacuum of an unknown dimension, and he was contained within a special suit. The child was named Nero.
Another point about DoC: I was long confused as to whether Shelke's attack "Technical Cancel" was a limit break or not. Fortunately, this recorded battle against Shelke in PlayOnline mode (see 01:48, 02:09 & 2:31) shows Shelke's form displaying the DoC Limit Break animation. We can be pretty sure then that Technical Cancel is indeed a limit break but we are still left with the interesting statement that she needs a big supply of mako to perform the attack.
For those who do not remember, Technical Cancel is an attack Shelke uses in a cutscene from PlayOnline Mode. LINK
Final observation: PlayOnline mode also included an HP restoration materia. This one is not available to Vincent as he can only acquire Fire, Thunder and Blizzard materia. Maybe this materia remains in the International version as unused data?
Final note: Though not in any way strengthening my point, and I do not claim that FF wiki is always right, but it's interesting to me that their page on materia interprets the Reunion Files quote in the same way that I do.
In the Reunion Files, it is mentioned that, as Materia is a by-product of Mako and Mako is no longer used, Materia has also begun to fall out of use.
cOn the social stigma of using materia: there are materia shops in almost every single town you visit. If selling materia makes enough money for it to be a major source of income... I would think materia doesn't have much social stigma attached to it. We also don't know where any of that materia comes from either. I would think it would take longer then two/three years for using materia to be thought of as a bad thing.
My head-cannon for magic varies depending how it's portrayed in a given 'verse, but it always comes back to the fact that magic can't be described in terms of the known physics of a 'verse. While magic will often have it's own rules, it often isn't known why it works the way it does, just that magic does work and that if a certain rule-set is followed it behaves more or less predictably. If you were to ask why/how it worked... that usually isn't known; if the "why/how" of magic was know, it would be called physics instead.
For me, materia is definitely magic as we know nothing about why or how it really works. We do know that if mental energy is used in whatever way, the Memories of the Ancients causes a spell to work, but where the matter that makes up the spell comes from or why accessing the Memories of the Ancients causes a spell to work isn't even hinted at.
but it always comes back to the fact that magic can't be described in terms of the known physics of a 'verse. While magic will often have it's own rules, it often isn't known why it works the way it does, just that magic does work and that if a certain rule-set is followed it behaves more or less predictably. If you were to ask why/how it worked... that usually isn't known; if the "why/how" of magic was know, it would be called physics instead.
Mystical - our human brains may never fathom how it works or its source.
Magic is mystical.
the cheap idea of Midichlorians took the mystical away from the Force.
If it takes a very long time for the planet to crystallize mako into materia it should take even longer for it to crystallize into mako stones, which are crystallized materia.
Yeah, this mako stones thing is fucking retarded. No wonder I had forgotten about them.
SE: "Behold crystalized mako! The mako stone!"
Player: "Oh, so it's materia then?"
SE: "No! It is crystallized materia! Behold!"
Player: "... Materia is already crystalline. That's what they are: crystals made from dead people."
SE: "But this is a more condensed version of materia! Think of it as extra condensed dead people!"
Player: "... Alright. So, it's just super dense materia then?"
SE: "No! It isn't materia at all! It's a mako stone!"
Player: "I don't understand. It's made of materia, looks like materia and still solid like materia, but lacks the properties of materia -- which was just a solid form of mako to begin with? In other words, a mako stone?"
SE: "Yes! Think of it like coal and diamonds!"
Player: "That doesn't even make sense. Coal has a non-crystalline structure -- and you don't compress diamonds into coal. Diamonds are the more condensed form of carbon out of the two. It's like you're doing this shit backward, but arriving at a destination that wouldn't even be there if you were going backward."
SE: "Behold!"
cOn the social stigma of using materia: there are materia shops in almost every single town you visit. If selling materia makes enough money for it to be a major source of income... I would think materia doesn't have much social stigma attached to it. We also don't know where any of that materia comes from either. I would think it would take longer then two/three years for using materia to be thought of as a bad thing.
I'm not saying it was ever stigmatic before people thought the planet tried to kill them for using mako energy. I'm saying it seems unlikely that they would throw away the use of everything related to mako afterward, but then think materia is fine when most of it only exists because of the mako siphoning that they think led to the planet trying to do them all in.
It could still be seen as fine, yeah. I'm just saying it doesn't make any sense if it is -- particularly since the WRO are never shown using it.
Obsidian said:
My head-cannon for magic varies depending how it's portrayed in a given 'verse, but it always comes back to the fact that magic can't be described in terms of the known physics of a 'verse. While magic will often have it's own rules, it often isn't known why it works the way it does, just that magic does work and that if a certain rule-set is followed it behaves more or less predictably. If you were to ask why/how it worked... that usually isn't known; if the "why/how" of magic was know, it would be called physics instead.
I don't know, between the comfort the researchers in Crisis Core have with it and the way Sephiroth talks about the formation and function of materia on Mt. Nibel, it really makes it sound like science in their world doesn't see magic as a very mystical or mysterious thing. To them, it probably is just physics and behaves in a rather predictable manner.
Remember this?:
Cloud
Magic...... a mysterious power...
Sephiroth
Ha, ha, ha!
Cloud
Did I say somethin' funny?
Sephiroth
A man once told me never to use an unscientific term such as mysterious power! It shouldn't even be called 'magic'!
I still remember how angry he was.
I'm reminded of that Arthur C. Clarke quote that says "magic is just science that we don't understand yet."
Obsidian said:
For me, materia is definitely magic as we know nothing about why or how it really works. We do know that if mental energy is used in whatever way, the Memories of the Ancients causes a spell to work, but where the matter that makes up the spell comes from or why accessing the Memories of the Ancients causes a spell to work isn't even hinted at.
We are at least told on a couple of occasions that the knowledge within the materia connects the user to the planet:
Sephiroth
...the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia.
Anyone with this knowledge can freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts between ourselves and the planet calling up magic...... or so they say.
These explanations are one of the reasons I'm so insistent that materia must actually use the planet's life. Otherwise, it seems irrelevant to mention that materia connects the user to the planet to use "the powers of the Land and the Planet."
Certainly, though, as Shademp has demonstrated, there is no completely clear-cut answer to all this shenanigans.
I agree, though in the case of The Force, a sense of mysticism seemed to have always been part of the point before, whereas part of the point in VII's setting seemed to have been that the mystical had been subdued by the rational.
Kusabi's direct, rough translation would be as follows:
“Materia, pieces of the life of the planet, should not be handled/used as weapons” form the basis of belief of Cloud and co.
Shinra tries to insert that power directly into their weapons, whereas Cid and co. borrow the sealed knowledge inside the Huge Materia to fight (against Shinra/Sephiroth) all across the world.”
He wishes for somebody (Tres?) to look over the quote and translate it into natural sounding English.
We already looked over the line by Bugenhagen which was mistranslated in the official localization.
Official localization:
Bugenhagen
“You are using Shinra Materia,
as a weapon?”
“Materia is highly dense spiritual energy.
A shred of the Planet's life.
It should not be used as a weapon.”
“We must stop using it…
or the Planet will be weakened.”
ブーゲンハーゲン
「神羅はマテリアを武器として
使おうとしているのか？」
「マテリアは高密度な精神エネルギー。
星のいのちのかけらじゃ。
武器になどするものではない」
「なんとかやめさせなければ……
ただでさえ星が弱っているのに……」
Retranslation:
Bugenhagen
“Shinra are using Materia,
as a weapon?”
“Materia is highly dense spiritual energy.
A shred of the Planet's life.
It should not be used as a weapon.”
We must stop them from using it...
or the Planet will be weakened.”
The Ultimania informs us further about the position of Cloud & team though. The keyword here being "borrow". Knowledge inside the materia is borrowed, not consumed. The contrast here between Shinra and AVALANCE is that Shinra uses materia as a fuel; they would launch Huge Materia at Meteor in hopes of blowing it up, but at the cost of destroying the materia.
It was initially on this Japanese yahoo site where The_Kusabi found the quote. A person asks if Cloud and gang are bad for preventing Huge Materia from being launched at Meteor, to which there is a reply that refers to the UO quote. The repliant proceeds to say that, from what he can gather, using magic and summons is ok and it does not hurt the planet.
In my opinion (and Kusabi's) the passage from Page 176 of the UO strengthens the notion that using materia does not drain the planet's mako energy. Knowledge is borrowed but nothing is lost.
^^That makes a ton more sense to me now. I was always wondering why Shin-Ra was lobbing materia at the moon like it was a warhead when there wasn't someone there to actually use the materia like... materia. It seemed obvious to me that that would never work to blow up meteor as the way materia is used is by using the knowledge inside of it. And then Cloud and Co. use the Huge Materia themselves to make the Master Materia, which is apparently fine to do.
One thing I'd like to know is what Japanese word is getting translated as "weapon" here because in English, "weapon" can be a very broad term and can be used figuratively as well as literally. Even with Cloud and Co. "borrow[ing] the sealed the sealed knowledge inside the Huge Materia", in English you could say that they are using the materia as a weapon because they are using the knowledge they get from the materia for the same reason they use a sword/gun; to defeat an opponent. In English, knowledge itself can be viewed a weapon. But here, "weapon" seems to only be a literal weapon, as in using materia as a literal, physical weapon you can throw at something.
Really nice find though. Borrowing knowledge from materia fits in really well with how materia works in the OG.
The word used in that quote is 兵器. This word means specifically military weaponry, like conventional (non-nuclear) explosives, missiles, cannons. It is not something that normal people carry around. It is a rather specific meaning. Not to be confused with 武器, which is a much broader term that just means "weapon", and can refer to things such as swords and handguns, as well as a more figurative meaning, like "they trained that guy from birth to be a living weapon" etc.
I don't think 兵器 is being used in any way figuratively there. It is referring to Shinra's huge nuclear weapon-like bomb on the rocket that tried to destroy Meteor.
I think the reason the quote is important, is because it is clearly stating a contrast between the way Shinra uses Materia and the way the party does. It wouldn't make much sense if it was like "Shinra uses Materia in a way that hurts the planet, so they are bad, but we on the other hand use Materia in a different way that also hurts the planet, so we are, uhhh, good, yeah!". That'd be nonsense. They are contrasting Shinra's style of use, which hurts the planet, and the party's style of use, which does not.
However, the party clearly has philosophical qualms with using the planet's knowledge to kill living beings, which is why I am guessing they stopped using Materia after the game is done. Ideally, the planet's "sacred" Materia should not be used for war, no matter how it is used. In the dire crisis of FF7, they borrowed the knowledge of Magic to fight for the survival of the world, but after that crisis was done, they put the Materia away and decided not to use it again for killing, it would seem. Either way, I don't think the use of casting Magic and Summons drains life energy, from what I have seen.
(EDIT: With the exception of Meteor, which *does* seem to use up Lifestream energy, and probably Holy as well - these are the exceptions, rather than the rule)
Speaking with Shademp about it, I've read that Nomura quote a million times at his request, and he does not specify that Materia hurts the planet. Only that Makou Reactors do, and because Materia were birthed by this vile method, they too shouldn't be used anymore for warfare. This is probably also the reason why *certain* uses of Materia are considered okay, like healing Materia. I would guess it is mostly only destructive Materia that gets the "taboo" about it.
*headcanon* physically removing spirit energy from the Planet (especially a highly dense form!) would be like drawing blood. Perhaps it would not be able to return to the Planet were it destroyed in space. Much like how Jenova's alien spirit energy latched onto the Planet's Lifestream (causing geostigma) maybe the huge materia would have only served to help Meteor! (does that explain the lightning-asteroids behind it after the crash?)
Either way though, it would have returned to the Planet. Escape pod or meteor fall...
Recently I started writing the intended frontpage article about this topic. My goal was to write it with the conclusion that we have no definitive answer. In a way, this is still true. In the scenario that the use of materia does not drain the planet's mako, we are extremely unlikely to find any official guide, or one of the writers, speak out to clear this confusion.
Yet I find it more and more difficult to write this feature which acknowledges both theories. Or as the article draft so far names them; Camp A (the use of materia hurts the planet) versus Camp B (using materia does not hurt the planet).
In Camp A, we have to assume a staggering incompetence from the part of the writers. The game and complementary material makes it absolutely clear that sucking mako from the planet and using it as fuel damages the planet. Why in the world would this not be made clear with the use of materia? Some character, maybe Biggs, would have said at one point "Using magic drains the planet's mako. But it's a small sacrifice for the greater cause."
Though it is curious that, in the game's beginning, that Barret does not know how to use materia. For all his knowledge about planet life, how to use materia seems to have escaped him. Then we have the line from the Intermediate Hall, which suggests that Barret told Cloud that they may carry no more than 200 materia. The game's writing is questionable, both on the count that Barret does not know how to use materia and how the cause for this materia limit is mentionly *only* in an optional tutorial.
Never does anyone in the game point towards the hypocrisy of AVALANCHE using materia. Not here, not with the AVALANCHE of Before Crisis, not in Cosmo Canyon (Bugenhagen says nothing which, in the paradigm of Camp A, is an oversight of unbelievable proportions). Instead Camp A has to patch things up by inventing guidelines such as "some materia are considered good and some are not". An argument that I just can't buy because you may save lives with restorative materia just as you may save lives with destructive materia. Unless this headcanon is confirmed in official sources, I can't subscribe to it.
A main cause for concern from Camp A is the materia tutorial by Sephiroth.
Sephiroth
“…The knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients
is held in the Materia.”
…
“Anyone with this knowledge can freely
use the powers of the land and the Planet.
That knowledge interacts between
ourselves and the Planet
calling up magic…or so they say.”
I acknowledge that there is ambiguity here in how the source of magic is described. The only "powers of the land and the Planet" that we know of, is the lifestream. "Powers" can mean many things though. It could refer to the elemental qualities of nature (earth, wind etc). It could refer to an unknown source, which makes magic possible in FFVII and which does not warrant explanation. It could even be that the lifestream *is* involved in triggering magic; that it is a "catalyst" but that its energy is not in any way expended. See wikipedia article on catalysis.
Excerpt: "Unlike other reagents that participate in the chemical reaction, a catalyst is not consumed by the reaction itself; however, it can be inhibited, deactivated or destroyed by secondary processes."
My interpretation is that the only catalyst here is the "knowledge of the Ancients" and that it unlocks powers of nature, but without expending the planet's mako (unless you use a spell to cause massive damage to the planet). To demand that the energy of magic has to come from somewhere is, in my opinion, to ask too much of FFVII. Some stories, indeed *some* Final Fantasy games reveal the source of magic, others do not. It is not a narrative DEMAND that has to be fulfilled, for some valid fear that the canon would make no sense otherwise.
Again, I can see the ambiguity. But which requires more effort? Either one... a) assumes that magic drains the planet's mako, with all the consequences and new headcanon this requires to be patched up with, all from an ambiguous materia tutorial by Sephiroth and a questionable quote by Nomura. The requirement is that all the FFVII writers have been so competent as to not mention this anywhere else. b) goes with the interpretation that using magic does not suck and drain mako. This becomes consistent with all the Compilation material, up until Nomura's quote in the Reunion Files. Here it is easier to pick apart the quote and dismiss the default interpretation, than to assume writer-incompetence.
The level at which Cloud and gang decides to refrain from materia is a different topic, which honestly has been very poorly presented to us whether you belong to Camp A or Camp B. It *is* easier to understand the choice to avoid materia if using it hurts the planet; that much I acknowledge. But going to Camp B is so much easier for me in the first place, that I don't mind patching it up with the idea that materia might only be shunned because most were made in mako reactors/they are a shard of the planet's life. The reason is not perfect, but neither is the writing for much of the Compilation. I just can't believe for the life of me that they have been so incompetent over the years that a "magic-drains-planet's-mako" mechanic has been left in the dark for all these years, in all the games, prosa, guide books etc.
All of this is written even without the quote from Page 176 of the Ultimania Omega. The more I wrote of the article, the more difficult I found it to give as much credence to Camp A as I do to Camp B. I will not say that either side has 100% failproof walls, but I honestly believe that Camp B is considerably stronger. This, in turn, makes me wonder how the article should be written...
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The belief that "Materia, fragments of the planet's life, should not be used as artillery" is Cloud and co.'s principle. While Shin-Ra attempts to allocate the Huge Materia as ordnance outright, Cid and the others intend to borrow the knowledge contained within them to wage battle on more than one front.
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Still having a mental block with this article, but I feel it's starting to ease up a bit.
Not strictly necessary but I'd like to add Yusuke Naora's comment, where he tells people to notice that Cloud's new swords have no materia slots. I've searched the web and found references to this and other interviews in the "Minas Tirith Forums".
The interview and translation sources they link to are long gone. I believe adventchildren.net was somewhere in there, but obviously that link doesn't work.
I'll copy-paste the following translations, just in case the old 2004 thread gets deleted.
July issue of Gangan magazine, on sale 6/12 2004:
*The article's content has been summarised. Those interested in all the details should buy the magazine at the bookstore.
GanGan July Issue: Special Interview with Tetsuya Nomura
Advent Children:
This might just be a new genre.
GanGan: To get right to the point, at this year’s E3 the latest trailer was shown. Concerning the visuals, what aspects did you want to stand out?
Mr. Nomura: The original characters have evolved so we’re aiming for the textures and atmosphere to feel real, but with the modelling we’re not looking for realism. As for the rest, we’ll go with what looks cool. The same goes for things like direction, and the battle scenes too, but by contrast we didn’t make it too realistic. I’m having the development team do things that are really exaggerated like the technique employed in anime and manga and such, where within a realistic atmosphere you have things that are done non-realistically, like the modelling of the characters in AC.
GanGan: Looking at the visuals, it’s turning out to be a production with a mysterious atmosphere, with there being what seems to be a fusion between non-realistic and realistic styles.
Mr. Nomura: A fusion you say…well, I guess it might be. With there being a very fine balance that is, in any case, hard to put into words. If it became either more realistic or non-realistic, the present balance would probably be lost. It’s something that’s different also from your usual animation, I guess you could call it a new genre.
The gloomy lot gets into action all right!
GanGan: Continuing about the characters, the appearance of people from the original game making a continuing appearance here, has rather changed, hasn't it?
Mr. Nomura: Yes, the original FFVII was made in 1997 and 7 years have passed since then, and within the world of the characters themselves too, 2 years have passed so… As for the clothes, if they were the same as 2 years ago, I’d be like people saying ‘Is that one outfit all you own?’ (laughs) As for Vincent, his outfit hasn’t changed, it’s probably like he doesn’t have anything else (laughs). About Vincent, with a body that doesn’t age and is immortal, he’s a bit different from humans so I guess that’s why we took a chance in not changing his looks.
GanGan: Will the other characters that appeared in the game make an appearance as well?
Mr. Nomura: The other characters… well, I’ll get in trouble if I say ‘that’s all’? You’ll just ask me why, right? (laughs) FFVII’s characters were really popular, so such things are naturally being considered.
GanGan: About FFVII, the appearances of its gloomy characters have really gained popularity- Vincent among others for instance.
Mr. Nomura: Yes, this time those people get plenty of instances to show off. (laughs) Well, it’s not that the party from the game will just get together once more and the story then develops from there… FFVII comprised an epic story totalling tens of hours, but when you compare the current FFVII: AC to it, the latter comes in really short. If all the previous members were to once again get together in the same place, that would be overkill so…
GanGan: I see. So, about the 3 characters, Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo, who newly make their appearance in this production, these 3 have similar characteristics like silver hair and such, right?
Mr. Nomura: I guess you could say they’re siblings… Concerning their looks, if you’re thinking that, since the colour of their hair as well as the colour of their eyes is the same as Sephiroth’s, there might in some way be a connection… there is. (laughs) I can’t yet tell you what they’re after, but the keywords that appeared in the last trailer ‘Jenova’, ‘Reunion’, ‘Geostigma’ and such are connected to them. This time the story will start to develop with them at the centre. With them showing up, the peace that has lasted for 2 years will begin to deteriorate.
GanGan: About the much talked about story, firstly, what is the meaning of the subtitle, ‘Advent Children’?
Mr. Nomura: The theme will be about ‘Advent’, which means ‘second coming’, and ‘Children’, which literally means 'children'. Who is this ‘children’ referring to? In general it also encompasses Marlene and her friends. Children will be the key point of the story, and this time Cloud will have to come to their rescue. The game, it being about saving the Planet, had an epic story, but this time it’s about saving the children… What appeared in the last part of the most recent trailer, ‘Why is Cloud fighting once again?’, ‘Is it for the children? For a memory? Or, for himself?’, is something worth noticing.
GanGan: How will the story be connected with FFVII’s?
Mr. Nomura: It’s not a story that will reveal the mysteries present in the game, but the thing is, that although we concluded FFVII back then, I think that there probably are among the players, those for whom there are still unclear things remaining about the character of Cloud who’s role they assumed. Why is Cloud, who is now living by himself in solitude, in fact alone? Aside from this, there must surely be parts that trouble the minds of people who played FFVII… Pertaining to that, I think that in more ways than one, Cloud will settle things this time.
Continuing with the previous issue of Famitsu PS2, there is an interview with Naora, and it mentions Cloud's sword(s). He wants people to take note that Cloud's new sword(s) has no Materia slots.
Before Crisis:
How funny, a cellphone game that isn’t online!
GanGan: Well, to continue, at E3 a game called ‘FFVII: BC’, which will be compatible with FOMA cellphones was newly announced. What prompted the project?
Mr. Nomura: It started with me wanting to do something with the mobile format. Although a cellphone is a communication device, the current game is in a stand-alone format. With the game not being online and not being about doing something together with others although it is on the cellphone, for me that seemed rather strange, so we chose FFVII as the subject matter to make the threshold easy to cross for everyone. First I wanted to get people interested, and when I was thinking about wanting to do this, there was FFVII: AC, a project already nicely underway, so I thought, ‘Isn’t there a possibility to tie it in with that?’. And, I thought designing it from the Turks’ perspective would be something new. I want to make something that pulls off feeling like something half virtual, where you receive missions. Although the main characters are members of the Turks, you’ll be able to play with a character created by choosing a face and a name for yourself. As a matter of fact, there exists a set chronology for FFVII, and this time I wanted to develop something along those lines. With the game starting 6 years before FFVII and from there on catching up to the world FFVII, there will also be, among other things, the fun of seeing familiar characters show up.
GanGan: I see, well in closing if you’ll please say a word to our readers concerning for instance points of FFVII: AC you want them to look forward to.
Mr. Nomura: With this production, we put much effort into expressing things like atmosphere and textures realistically. That is something in particular I would like people to notice.
EDIT: Does anyone know if the above interview translations were, in fact, taken from adventchildren.net?
Near the end Yusuke Naora's quote is mentioned, but apparently it is not in the GanGan magazine, but instead in Famitsu PS2?
Continuing with the previous issue of Famitsu PS2, there is an interview with Naora, and it mentions Cloud's sword(s). He wants people to take note that Cloud's new sword(s) has no Materia slots.
I'm hoenstly a bit confused if this comment exists both in the GanGan magazine and Famitsu PS2, or only the latter.
If anybody knows the exact issue (maybe even owns it?) please let me know. We may not know what Naora's point was with the lack of materia slots, but at least this reveals that the no-materia-slot design with the Fusion Swords was intentional.
The reason could be...
- Philosophical. Whether it be because the creation of materia alone weakens the planet or if the actual usage hurts the planet, these two fall under the philosophical reason.
- Practical. Cloud's swords are based on quick fusion and de-fusion from each other. Maybe Naora thought that with the way the swords work, they would not function well with materia slots.
Not saying we have to agree with this notion, but I can definitely see Naora and Nomura thinking that inserting and removing materia would be inconvenient due to the mechanics of the Fusion Swords.
That's actually a pretty interesting theory. I like it, but it does seem like the base sword could (or could have been made to) accommodate materia. In fact it would give a reason for the opening mechanism - and a cool one at that.
If anybody wonders why the "How does Materia & Magic Work" feature hasn't happened yet, it's because I was unable to figure out a proper structure for the article where both sides of the debate were considered equally. I'm too biased towards my own opinion to write it, currently. (Plus right now I'm too busy with other stuff.)
I may or may not return to this in the future and try again to write the article.
Maybe get a few other people with differing opinions on the subject to collaborate on the article? Get a good enough discussion going and you should end up with whatever you're still missing.
Maybe get a few other people with differing opinions on the subject to collaborate on the article? Get a good enough discussion going and you should end up with whatever you're still missing.
The last 5 pages are of the differing opinions. We never really did come to a conclusion. Mostly because so much of our materia knowledge quickly gets into headcanon.
