ERRORS in article "This Just In: the LTD is Over"

[Anastar]

There are several errors in the "This Just In: The LTD Is Over" article that I think should be corrected. Even though the article is old, it is still widely cited and used as "proof" that Cloti is canon and not Clerith.

THIS IS NOT A POST ABOUT WHICH PAIRING IS CANON.

THIS IS ONLY ABOUT THE INFORMATION GIVEN IN THE "This Just In - The LTD is Over ARTICLE and its significance for both pairings.

1) FIRST:
The "This Just In - The LTD is Over article states quite plainly that Cloti has "won" and that Clerith is not canon. However Tres Dias disagreed with that in the following article:

This Just In: An Apology to Clerith Fans

In that article, Tres Dias verifies that BOTH Clerith and Cloti are canon. I quote from his article:

".. since the LTD is about who Cloud loves and not merely who he has expressed love for, this material does not discount the legitimacy of the CloudxAerith (Clerith) pairing. As those who have read my latest LTD article, “Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally” will be aware, the canon material makes it more than clear that Cloud’s affections lie with both women, regardless of certain unfortunate circumstances that meant he could only express his feelings to and be with one of them."

In saying that the Clerith pairing is legitimate and that Cloud's affection lies with BOTH women, Tres is acknowledging Cloud's love for Aerith - which means that he considers Clerith to be canon as well as Cloti.

(Note: although I do not agree entirely with certain aspects of his statement, I will leave those for another debate. At the moment, the point is that Tres recognizes the legitimacy of the Clerith pairing as well as Cloud's love for Aerith.)

If you accept Tres's statement then the This Just In: the LTD is Over article is incorrect when it states this:

One last thing, before I go. I have one thought, from Tres himself, that he asked me to relate to everyone. That thought is, “All that’s left to say is: Abandon ‘ship! [Clerith]” Wise words indeed, since that ship [Clerith] has been undeniably sunk, if you’ll pardon the pun, by canon.

Although Tres did apologize for his callous remark (and my thanks to Tres for doing so), that does not negate the article's inaccuracy in stating (in so many words) that Clerith has "lost" and that Cloti has "won".

2) SECOND:
The "This Just In: the LTD is Over" article also states that Cloud and Tifa "almost certainly" had sex under the Highwind, and that this is definite because the description says that they shared mutual feelings without words.

This statement is also highly inaccurate and should be corrected.

I say this because ALL CAPTIONS ON THE FTOIL PAGE SPECIFICALLY REFER TO THE SCENE SHOWN IN THE PICTURE.

The FFX caption and picture are both about Macalania Spring. The FFVI picture and caption are both about Celes and Locke first meeting, The FFIX picture and caption are both about Zidane returning to “the place I’ll return to someday” and Garnet waiting for him there. All captions talk specifically about the scene shown in the picture.

Now look carefully at the HW scene picture shown on the FTOIL page:

The picture is from Scene 137 (Last Morning) NOT Scene 136 (Understanding) where Tifa says, "Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking."

Since all captions on the FTOIL ;page match the picture they are with, then the description of Cloud and Tifa sharing mutual feelings without words is actually referring to Tifa resting her head on Cloud's shoulder for a little bit longer NOT sex.

That moment of Cloud and Tifa sharing mutual feelings without words is actually SHOWN in Scene 137. It can be seen at the following link in video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbYHKjP_l8I

and in the following screenshot:

Therefore, the description of Cloud and Tifa sharing mutual feelings without words is referring to this moment, NOT to when they supposedly had sex.

This is a misrepresentation and should be corrected.

3) THIRD
The "This Just In: The LTD is Over" article suggests that the HA version of the HW scene is canon because the HA version is shown in the picture. This is also incorrect. In actuality, the picture shows Tifa saying this:

Tifa “Give me a little longer… Just a little bit longer…”
(She rests her head on his shoulder again.)
Tifa “This day will never come again… So let me have this moment…”

That line is the exact same in BOTH the HA and LA versions of the HW scene. There are no differences Therefore, both the HA and LA versions of the HW scene are shown on the FTOIL page.

In addition, mutual feelings without words are shared between Cloud and Tifa in both the HA and LA versions. In both versions shortly before Cloud and Tifa go back to the airship, Cloud says this:

Cloud "It's all right, Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday."
Cloud "At least we don't have to go on alone."
(A pause. Tifa nods)
Tifa"Yes... That's right!"

Again, that's the same in both versions, so the feeling of not being alone because they have each other is shared during the following moment in both versions:

Of course that feeling can be taken in a romantic sense as well as a platonic sense. Therefore, the HW scene picture and caption refer to both the HA and LA versions of the scene.

4) FOURTH
FFVII is the only game on the page where the main protagonist is shown with two different women.

As stated in #3, both the HA and LA versions of the HW scene are pictured since the dialogue is the same in both versions. In addition to this there is a page number reference at the top of the picture, bordered in red in the following screenshot:

Page 232 specifically states that which version a player gets is determined by Tifa's affection level with Cloud.

Therefore, the HW scene is portrayed on the FTOIL page as optional.
The Clerth Date scene is ALSO portrayed on the FTOIL page as optional.

The caption of the Clerith date scene says that who comes for the GS date depends on Cloud's behavior, clearly a reference to the Date mechanism. There is also a page reference number at the top of he Clerith date picture:

http://clerith.heliohost.org/new15.png

If you go to the page referenced at the top of the Clerith date picture it talks about the dates with Yuffie, Tifa, and Barret. So once again, the Clerith date is portrayed as optional.

I AM TALKING ONLY ABOUT WHAT IS SHOWN ON THE FTOIL PAGE. THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT WHICH VERSION IS CANON - IT'S DISCUSSING ONLY WHAT IS SHOWN ON THE FTOIL PAGE AND HOW IT IS PORTRAYED IN THE "THIS JUST IN: THE LTD IS OVER" ARTICLE.

These inaccuracies should be corrected and given the same amount of publicity as the original article.

 

[Octo]

Sooo....err.

I mean. We have two different articles written 4 years apart written by 2 different authors. And the Apology to Clerith Fans is the most recent (well..2 years ago...)

It does have the same amount of publicity? The chances are nobody has really bothered to read either article since they were published, but they've both been hosted on TLS.

Anyway, I guess Ryu and Tres will have their say, but it all seems kinda redundant. Especially as the remake is on the horizon and might render everything null and void anyway

Just my opinion

EDIT: Actually a large chunk of this is actually addressed within the Apology to Clerith Fans article.

 

[Lex]

I am not in favour of touching that ancient article.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Actually a large chunk of this is actually addressed within the Apology to Clerith Fans article.

It is.

Anastar, what are you asking for here?

 

[Shademp]

There is also the matter that (although easily missed, so I don't blame anyone for not spotting this) that the aforementioned article is grouped under the category "Ye Olde Vault" in the Canon of FFVII page.

Ye Olde Vault

Here is where articles with outdated and/or obsolete content, usually deemed so by the authors themselves, are listed. Look to articles in either of the three previous categories for more up-to-date info.

This alone negates any reason to touch the article, because it is already considered a relic.

 

[Octo]

^We need to go one better: Put it on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.'

 

[Tennyo]

I find it so random that this is being brought up NOW all of a sudden so many years later...

But to be honest I don't remember the "Apology to Cleriths" article. I'll have to go read it to refresh my memory.

 

[Geostigma]

I find it so random that this is being brought up NOW all of a sudden so many years later...

But to be honest I don't remember the "Apology to Cleriths" article. I'll have to go read it to refresh my memory.

"What you dissed my ship years ago!??!!? I shall defends its honor!!!"

 

[Strangelove]

^We need to go one better: Put it on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.'

the obvious answer is to theme the page after the shinra manor basement lab where they keep all the old books that sephiroth reads and goes mad

i know i feel like losing my mind just thinking about it

 

[Anastar]

Actually a large chunk of this is actually addressed within the Apology to Clerith Fans article.

It is.

Anastar, what are you asking for here?

Hello, Tres.... and thank you for answering.

First of all, I'd like to clarify that I am not angry with either you or Ryu about this - both of you have dealt with me very respectfully and kindly over the past few years and we've had some very good discussions. Both of you are very good researchers and writers and I respect your theories even though I disagree with your conclusions.

We don't agree, but that's no reason to hate one another. Friends can disagree, too. I consider Quex to be a good friend, but we disagree about lots o things. So this is not meant as an attempt to disprove Cloti - it's meant as an attempt to correct errors in a post that was widely cited and used frequently as evidence by many people over the years.

Journalistically speaking, those errors should be corrected because some of the information is wrong.

I don't see the number of views listed for either article I mentioned, but I guess we can make a rough estimate by comparing the number of comments made in reply to each article. There were 822 comments made in reply to Ryu's original article but only 4 comments made in reply to your article. That would imply that Ryu's original article received greater attention.

There ave been numerous articles posted on the internet which either directly cite Ryu's article as a source or use the same information stated in Ryu's article as a basis for their argument. Some examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irOHiRpoLbo
Cloti is declared canon using information presented in the "This Just In" article. Clerith is argued against in the video while Cloti is declared canon.

http://www.cavesofnarshe.com/news/article/ff-viis-love-triangle-no-longer-debatable/
Cloti is declared canon and the "This Just In" article is cited as a source. The article says nothing about Clerith being canon.

http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=18109171
Cloti is declared canon and the "This Just In" article is cited as a source; Nothing is said about Clerith being canon.

http://dissidiaforums.com/archive/index.php/t-3444.html
Cloti is declared official and canon and the "This Just In" article is cited as the source. The implication is that Cloti "won" and Clerith is no longer valid.

http://www.arlongpark.net/showthread.php?t=26085
Same story – Cloti is declared the official couple and the "This Just In" article is cited as the source, Nothing is said about Clerith being canon, too.

As a more recent example, Ryu's article was cited as evidebce two years ago in a debate on GameFaqs:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/197341-final-fantasy-vii/69120048?page=2

And even more recently on Tumblr, there was a spammer claiming that Cloti is canon and Clerith is fanon only. I don't have the link to that post, but it was within the last few months.

Since Ryu's article is still being used as evidence as since it was so widely cited years ago, I think it's important for the errors to be corrected.

Actually a large chunk of this is actually addressed within the Apology to Clerith Fans article.

disagree. Tres apologized for a remark that he had made and stated that Clerith is as canon as Cloti.

However in his article Tres apologized for and retracted his own words. He did NOT apologize for or retract the following errors in Ryu's article:

1. Ryu's article says that Clerith is NOT canon and that the FTOIL page proves it.
2. Ryu's article says that Cloud and Tifa sharing mutual feelings without words "almost certainly" means they had sex under the HW. In actuality, the bit about them sharing mutual feelings without words is in reference to Tifa resting her head on Cloud's shoulder in Scene 137. We know hat because of the picture used for the HW scene on the FTOIL page. So the FTOIL page does NOT confirm that they had sex.
3. Ryu's article states tnat Cloud and Tifa's relationship after the HW scene is that of lovers and that this is confirmed by the FTOIL page. That would mean that the HA version of the HW scene is canon, and that the FTOIL page confirms that.
Once again that is incorrect because the scene shown is actually Tifa saying to Cloud, "Just a little longer.." which occurs in both the LA and HA versions. Since this happens in both the HA and LA versions, the FTOIL page does not confirm that the HA version is canon.

Tres did not address those errors in his article. Instead he said this:

It also occurred to me that it’s not Ryu’s place to take account of my mistake. That was his article, and the conclusions drawn therein are his to hold. Perhaps his opinion and understanding of the material has also changed. Perhaps not. Either way, it’s up to him to edit or not edit things there, and it’s up to me to address or not address my own behavior here.

Sure, he could add a note clarifying my position and remove the offending words. He could even add an apology on my behalf.

However, it would all be in an article buried in our archives that no one is ever going to look at again except for the people whose sensibilities and feelings were already trespassed. I went to school for journalism and that background informed me that only one course of action would suffice: A retraction and apology that are as visible as the original comment. Thus, this front page posting.

So Tres basically left it up to Ryu to apologize for and retract his own mistakes. I can understand that and agree that it makes sense.

However, note the last two lines I quoted:

I went to school for journalism and that background informed me that only one course of action would suffice: A retraction and apology that are as visible as the original comment. Thus, this front page posting

Shouldn't the same be done for Ryu's article, too?

Edited text in red
The following (#4) was not stated in Ryu's article but I do think it should be incorporated into any retraction simply because Ithink it is important enough to be included in the original article:
4. FFVII is the only game on the page where the main protagonist is shown with two different women.

As stated in #3, both the HA and LA versions of the HW scene are pictured on the FTOIL page. In addition, there is a page number reference at the top of the picture. Therefore, the FTOIL page makes it clear that the HW scene is optional and that there is no canon version.
The Clerith Date scene is also pictured with a caption stating that who comes for the date is based on Cloud's behavior. The page referece at the top of the picture shows the other optional versions of the Date scene. Therefore, the FTOIL page also makes it clear that the Date scene is optional and that there is no canon version.

IMO, that actually says that who Cloud loves is open to interpretation based on player control options, aka the Date Mech.

Especially as the remake is on the horizon and might render everything null and void anyway

True enough, but the release date is over a year away. In the meantime, people are replaying the game or playing it for the first time, so many people will go to the internet to fnd answers to questions like who did Cloud love, did humans survive he flood of he Lifestream what happened to the people in Midgar, etc. Since they will have to rely on answers found in posts like Ryu's and the others listed above using Ryu's information as a source, then they will have preconceptions based on incorrect information when they start playing the remake.

Unless those errors are corrected and published on the front page in the way that Tres suggested.

I am not asking for a retraction of the idea that Cloud loves Tifa. What I am looking for is a retraction of the incorrect information in Ryu's article, which I listed above. This includes the idea that Cloti has "won" and that Clerith has "lost" the LTD.

And once again, Tres... thank you for taking the time to answer. I appreciate it.

There is also the matter that (although easily missed, so I don't blame anyone for not spotting this) that the aforementioned article is grouped under the category "Ye Olde Vault" in the Canon of FFVII page.

Quote:
Ye Olde Vault
Here is where articles with outdated and/or obsolete content, usually deemed so by the authors themselves, are listed. Look to articles in either of the three previous categories for more up-to-date info.

This alone negates any reason to touch the article, because it is already considered a relic.

Actually, this alone is even more reason to correct the errors - given that "Ye Olde Vault" is on the CANON OF FFVII page. If that's where the article is placed, that's saying that Ryu's article is CANON - mistakes and all.

 

[Shademp]

My suggestion would be to include an annotation and a link at the start of the "LTD Is Over" article, directing the reader to articles which are more up to date and more open about the various interpretations on the subject. I would prefer to leave the choice of links to Tres.

I shall remain in the camp that the aforementioned article should have the status of 'Archived Relic', same as the three other articles linked to in the Ye Olde Vault category, and that the content itself should remain unchanged (similar to how one will not edit century-old documents before putting them in a museum). The biggest edit I can agree on is to include the suggested annotation/micro-foreword + links at the start of the "LTD Is Over" news article.

 

[Octo]

I still don't understand why it's taken 2 years to bring this up. But anyway, I think it's best left up to Tres and Ryu to decide what they want to do, but I'd assume that if they were going to delete or retract or whatever they would have done so already.

 

[Jason Tandro]

^We need to go one better: Put it on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.'

Octo, you are my favorite person today for this reference.

 

[Rydeen]

 

[Dashell]

Maybe it's not saying the HA scene and the Date scene are optional, maybe it's saying (and this will blow some minds) that CLOUD LOVED BOTH

 

[Anastar]

Maybe it's not saying the HA scene and the Date scene are optional, maybe it's saying (and this will blow some minds) that CLOUD LOVED BOTH

Hey Quex - good to see you! Didn't know whether you'd have time for this.

Yes it could mean that he loves both - Tres said the same thing in his apology. I grant that it's possible to interpret it that way. But is it definite?

The first thing that makes me question it is - why did SE stress the optional nature of BOTH the Date scene and the HW scene when both women are pictured? Both pictures show a reference page link where it's clearly stated for the HW scene that which version a player gets is dependent on Tifa's affection level - the Date scene says in the caption that which companion shows up for the date is dependent on Cloud's behavior.

The HW scene pic shows a line of dialogue that's the exact same in both the HA and LA versions. The page reference link in the Date scene pic shows the other available Date choices: Tifa, Yuffie, and Barret.

Sounds to me like SE is making it plain and clear that Cloud's affection for both women is dependent on the Date Mechanism. And Cloud loving both women IS a possible outcome of the Date Mech:

- Get the Clerith date and the HA HW scene, Cloud loves both.
- Get the Clerith date and the LA HW scene, Cloud loves Aerith only.
- Get the Tifa date and the HA HW scene, Cloud loves Tifa only.

Personally, I still say that interpretation is a LARGE factor in determining who Cloud loves, too. IF Cloud loves only one girl, then why hasn't SE provided a conclusive scene that can't be debated with one of the girls? Like the Lake scene in FFX:

SE knows how to do a love scene - the lake scene in FFX is unquestionable. But SE hasn't provided such a scene for EITHER Cloti or Clerith. Why do we keep having to fish around in the Ultimania's hoping to find statements to back up our interpretations?

If SE wanted to make Cloud's affection for only ONE or BOTH women clear, all they had to do was something conclusive like the Lake scene in FFX. But they haven't.

IMO, that means SE wants to leave it up to player interpretation.

 

[Geostigma]

 

[Octo]

Oh god....the LTD....it's.....reproduced


Anastar, I suggest you PM Ryu and Tres directly about this.

 

[Fangu]

CLOUD LOVED BARRET

 

[Jason Tandro]

Oh god....the LTD....it's.....reproduced

 

[Tennyo]

Not helping you guys

 

[Lex]

Well we have an LTD thread with strict rules that the discussion doesn't spill out of there, so yeah I'd say either post in there or take this to PM. Please and thank you, Anastar.

 

[JechtShotMK9]

On another tangent, branching off of this, but not really part of the LTD (which I'm going to have to look into one of these days, judging from the reactions here,) what does a scene being optional have to do with anything? Vincent and Yuffie are optional, yet are undeniably "Canon." (Dear lord baby Jesus I despise what that word has become.) Same with the scene in the Shinra Mansion. Not to mention tons of character dialogue you only get if the right people are in your party, Vincent talking to Hojo at the Sister Ray comes to mind.

I mean, we all consider these things to be "canon." Why would we consider Cloud and Tifa going at it hardcore under the Highwind while everyone else watched, giggling at how awkwardly Cloud was trying to stick it in while Tifa sighed in frustration to be any different?

 

[Anastar]

On another tangent, branching off of this, but not really part of the LTD (which I'm going to have to look into one of these days, judging from the reactions here,) what does a scene being optional have to do with anything? Vincent and Yuffie are optional, yet are undeniably "Canon." (Dear lord baby Jesus I despise what that word has become.) Same with the scene in the Shinra Mansion. Not to mention tons of character dialogue you only get if the right people are in your party, Vincent talking to Hojo at the Sister Ray comes to mind.

I mean, we all consider these things to be "canon." Why would we consider Cloud and Tifa going at it hardcore under the Highwind while everyone else watched, giggling at how awkwardly Cloud was trying to stick it in while Tifa sighed in frustration to be any different?

All the options you've mentioned aren't directly involved with the lTD. If you haven't been involved in LTD debates then you'd be unfamiliar with how optional vs non-optional scenes are weighed in terms of validity in LTD debates.

You can see a lengthy discussion about which version of the HW scene is canon by Tres in his essay "Dilly Dally Shilly Shally" HERE.

Oh god....the LTD....it's.....reproduced

Anastar, I suggest you PM Ryu and Tres directly about this.

Bah... if you think that you're not reading my posts.

This is NOT about who Cloud loves. This is about the accuracy of what is stated in Ryu's original article.

As for contacting Ryu, I emailed him about it before I posted anything about it here. I was going to email Tres, too but I thought he was too busy to deal with it. The last time I emailed him about anything, he took about two months to answer me (NOT that it was a big deal - he was just really busy and it wasn't anything major that I was talking about.)

Besides Tres and I have discussed the LTD in MASSIVE DETAIL by email... we came to the conclusion that neither of us were gonna bend, so we just decided to shake hands and call it a draw.

After that, Quex and I wrote an essay together about how we think SE has actually purposely avoided giving a conclusive and definite answer to the LTD. If you're interested you can see it here: All Canons Are Created Equal

No, I'm not into discussing the LTD anymore - IMO, SE left it up to player interpretation so there is no actual canon pairing.

This is all about the accuracy of what's stated in Ryu's article.

My suggestion would be to include an annotation and a link at the start of the "LTD Is Over" article, directing the reader to articles which are more up to date and more open about the various interpretations on the subject. I would prefer to leave the choice of links to Tres.

That's a decent idea, Shademp - but I'd like to see the changes at least mentioned on the front page.

 

[Octo]

I'll admit I skim read, but if its all that stuff from the FTOIL page and whathaveyou, its LTD

Has Ryu responded?