Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

[Shadowfox]

This one I have to comment on a bit because about a month ago it was brought up about who Cloud was dancing for during the Honey Bee Inn scene in the LTD thread. Here is an interesting take on that. (of course this is probably really bias). This is what I saw through the Cloud X Tifa lens, but I couldn't really convey what I was trying to say back then.

Yeah, I remember that topic.

IMO, Cloud was not dancing to make Aerith happy. He looked so miserable up on stage, like he was just trying to get it over with.

Aerith tells him, "C'mon. Don't you wanna save Tifa?" just outside of the Honeybee Inn when he shows reluctance to getting fitted out in a dress. She repeats that line if you have him try to talk to her again after she explains her full plan to have him dance. So even the setup for the dance number is that he's doing it to save Tifa.

 

[Final_Heaven]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273072452071874560

This is cute. It's Remake! Cloud getting pissed at AC! Cloud for how he treated Tifa

 

[Yumelinh]

As for Cloud, before the guilt and restlessness set in, he was laughing and having a good time with Tifa. He just makes her so happy when he's himself and not depressed. That look she gave him at the end of ACC and his shy smile back was really all I needed to know they'd be okay.

I agree! This is something largely overlooked by fans. When Tifa was going through her own depressive phase due to the immense guilt she was feeling, Cloud was the one reassuring her and their relationship at the beginning of CoT. It was his encouragement that led her to take action to get out of her painful thoughts.

And while Tifa and Cloud really have very different ways of dealing with pain, I think Cloud’s pain is something more ... palpable? His "pain" has names, faces, and a strong connection w/ him. They're a constant reminder of his failure.

So, I think that looking at Tifa (and his family) and being happy with them made him feel more guilty and more afraid that if in the future these people he calls family now end up in a dangerous situation, he would fail to save them (like he did in the past). That's why he shut them out.

I have a lot of problems with AC/C and Cloti there, but none of them are related to Cloud/his guilt or how he acted bc of that because when we see everything he went through it isn't such an absurd reaction at all. I just wish AC/C could have delved into their relationship more deeply and dealt with some things in a better way so that people wouldn't finish the movie by seeing their relationship in a bad light.

As for Tifa having the patience of a saint. This is absolutely true, lol. But honestly, Cloud never felt unworthy of her love for me. Both have their ups and downs and both try to support each other in their own way when they are at it. I think they have a very "balanced" relationship for lack of better words and it is probably what I like most about them.

 

[odekopeko]

@Yumelinh agreed with everything you said, couldn't have said it better!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273265287610023937

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273244773160116230

I'd be able to find more cute cloti fanart if they didn't keep getting buried under my friends' kpop tweets.

 

[RhinoKart]

Re: ACC, Even if we wanted to take the premise that Cloud is still in love with Aerith leading up to ACC and that is why he leaves his family (I'm not saying that is true, but if for the sake of argument we believed that) isn't Cloud's personal character arch in the movie about him moving on and making the choice to move on with Tifa/his family?

I was thinking about the line "which is it, a memory or us" that gets used a lot to suggest Cloud was still in love with Aerith, except the context of that line is Tifa asking Cloud to go rescue the kids. Pretty clearly Cloud picks the "us" not the "memory" given that the next thing that happens is he goes to the forgotten city to save Denzel and Marlene. Furthermore this specific scene transitions from Cloud talking to Tifa, into the white space with Aerith where she says "dilly dally, shilly shally, isn't time you did the forgiving". She clearly wants him to move on too.

Then on to talking to Vincent where Cloud asks if sins are ever forgiven and then states "well I'm going to try" before calling to Marlene and heading home with her. To me this entire moment in the film makes it perfectly clear that regardless of where Cloud was mentally before this, at this moment he is choosing the "us" not the "memory".

Sorry I know this was a bit of a tangent, but I just don't see how you could watch all of ACC and not believe that Cloud is choosing his family/life with Tifa over mourning for Aerith for all eternity.

 

[Eerie]

I found this on Tumblr and lol, good train of thoughts there, it didn't cross my mind that Tifa couldn't have possibly fainted in that position. Oh, Cloud :3

 

[minami758]

There was a convo about this in the CT discord but I love how there are so many little details that show how attentive Cloud is to Tifa in the Remake. Not just being physically protective, but also caring about her mental and emotional health. He really takes Marle's words about listening to Tifa's thoughts/feelings to heart.

Just a few of the smaller, more missable moments:

1. Before going back to the bar in chapter 3, Tifa puts on her customer service attitude and he calls her out on it.
2. Before leaving for the Sector 5 mission, he tells her to take a deep breath because he can tell she's nervous.
3. During the Sector 5 mission, Tifa sighs and Cloud says "Tifa..." all worried.
4. After the plate fall, on the way back to Sector 7 in the Collapsed Expressway, Tifa worries about the wreckage, and Cloud once again says "Tifa..." all worried.
5. When the trio are back in the sewers with Leslie, Tifa sees the Stamp graffiti and laments that she never got to thank Jessie and Biggs for their work, and Cloud yet again says "Tifa..." all worried. There's a trend here, lol.

And this isn't even all of them. In the OG, while you could never be "mean" to Tifa, there wasn't as much emphasis placed on their relationship earlier on, so this is really nice to see. I really appreciate the attention to detail here in the Remake ⁠— that even in the smaller moments, Cloud has Tifa's wellbeing on his mind.

 

[Eerie]

Ah, speaking of details, the aforementioned blogger also spotted this, relative to the graffitis. I was dubious at first, but the fact that the words all have stars (a cloti motif) and that "the train tunnel" to me doesn't look like it's followed by a musical dot, but by a 5, which would refer to ch5... yeah, could be. Why not. At worse, I think it's a fun headcanon to have, not really something deep X'D

Something else she noticed, and I'm still undecided about that because I'd need to rewatch the cutscene and there's only so many cutscenes I can watch of this game, seriously, is this: Cloud's position late in the game (and I mean physical position). I am not sure if I agree about all these pictures, though Il will pay more attention next time I watch the cutscenes, because a lot of them are blurry and that's not something that jumped to me when I watched them first. Have you got any ideas? This blog is sometimes a little... extreme, but there are some good observations too.

 

[odekopeko]

Wow, lots of things I didn't pick up on that Miiwoo mentioned. The owner of that tumblr acc made some unteresting analysis as well.
I didn't really pick up on some of this stuff.

I received part of my shipment from Amazon jp today and now reading the FF7 10th anniversary Ultimania.

I understand better now what you guys mean when you speak of the word "reunion" being something important to Cloud and Tifa. The word reunion is mentioned several times when talking about them in here.

The first "reunion" mentioned was put in quotation marks, and happens when Tifa finds Cloud at the train station. I remember one of you guys mentioning this in the LTD thread. So this is not a true reunion in a sense.

It goes on to say that in the Lifestream is where they find their true reunion, their shinjitsu no saikai. It talks about how the true meaning of the word "reunion" for them is fulfilled only after they find his true self.

I feel a bit sad though because Tifa hasn't "reunited" with her Cloud yet. They've been separated for so long.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Poll on twitter, if anyone is interested:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273074088160800769

 

[RhinoKart]

Ah, speaking of details, the aforementioned blogger also spotted this, relative to the graffitis. I was dubious at first, but the fact that the words all have stars (a cloti motif) and that "the train tunnel" to me doesn't look like it's followed by a musical dot, but by a 5, which would refer to ch5... yeah, could be. Why not. At worse, I think it's a fun headcanon to have, not really something deep X'D

Something else she noticed, and I'm still undecided about that because I'd need to rewatch the cutscene and there's only so many cutscenes I can watch of this game, seriously, is this: Cloud's position late in the game (and I mean physical position). I am not sure if I agree about all these pictures, though Il will pay more attention next time I watch the cutscenes, because a lot of them are blurry and that's not something that jumped to me when I watched them first. Have you got any ideas? This blog is sometimes a little... extreme, but there are some good observations too.

To speak to the last point, Cloud standing physically close to Tifa or turned towards her is actually a thing from Chapter 14 onwards. So I have to disagree with the bloggers suggestion that it is only increases after the Sephiroth vision.

I was briefly looking at this at one point (you can mock me, I was pretty bored that week) but I kind of concluded that Tifa focusing in on Tifa when Aerith is absent really only tells us that Cloud feels more comfortable with Tifa than Barret (which isn't exactly shocking). After Aerith is back in the party the trend of Cloud standing closer to Tifa/looking at Tifa continues.

Normally I'd say it doesn't mean a lot, but the more I overthink the game, the more I've come to the conclusion that Tifa's role towards Cloud evolves from potential love interest to supportive partner over the course of the game, so having her and Cloud be presented as standing close together and in synch with each other is a simple way to highlight this.

I've got screen shots of this (yep I'm super cool) just give me a few minutes and I'll post them.

 

[odekopeko]

I'd vote @MasterMoogle but she's getting upset at the results and already wants to delete the poll?

 

[RhinoKart]

I'd vote @MasterMoogle but she's getting upset at the results and already wants to delete the poll?

I voted a few hours ago (didn't comment though) and reading the comments was awful.


Okay follow up to my other post, here is 6 screenshots from Chapter 17 (and one from the very end of 16). I know this is the Cloti club but I don't want to sound crazy, characters standing next to each other doesn't mean they are in love, but I will say that Cloud and Tifa are consistently portrayed together and I think that MIGHT mean something (because I love wearing my shipping goggles in here lol).

Spoiler: Cloud and Tifa standing together

 

[iamhorde]

Poll on twitter, if anyone is interested:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273074088160800769

Thanks for sharing. Signed in to my Twitter first time in months just to vote and found out the poll creator was pretty biased to begin with. Still, I'm glad I contributed.

I voted a few hours ago (didn't comment though) and reading the comments was awful.


Okay follow up to my other post, here is 6 screenshots from Chapter 17 (and one from the very end of 16). I know this is the Cloti club but I don't want to sound crazy, characters standing next to each other doesn't mean they are in love, but I will say that Cloud and Tifa are consistently portrayed together and I think that MIGHT mean something (because I love wearing my shipping goggles in here lol).
[/SPOILER]

Yea I kinda regretted reading the comments too. But after what I've read there, I really don't think you're over analyzing here. I never ventured to LTD territory and love being with the CloTi family simply to enjoy our preferred ship, but after reading some of those Twitter comments, it's amazing how some people have the mental gymnastics to tie completely unrelated things together simply to form an argument.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Poll on twitter, if anyone is interested:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273074088160800769

How are we losing???

 

[Graymouse]

Just popping in to drop off some daily evening pictures I found around the Shinra'net. Showcasing our favorite couple.

 

[odekopeko]

@MasterMoogle because people are realizing it's a clapped poll. The problem I have is that the person behind this wants to use the results as a win-win for her fandom. She was mad because of that other poll placed Clerith at 10th, and this was made in retaliation. That's not cool.

Apparently to her a gay relationship isn't realistic, so no gays included, but Zifa is there cause it's more realistic than AerTi? She says this poll is meant to be biased, and out in the open she is basically making it known she wants to prove that clotis stalk clerith accounts.

This aint it.

And I removed the pic I posted cause not sure if I'm going against the rules. Anyway, frankly I'm tired of this drama. The other polls were just more fun because most sane people weren't super serious over it.

 

[Graymouse]

Reading some of those comments on that poll makes me sad. It is amazing how twisted things can get when you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.



Anyways here are the last pictures since I can only upload 5 per post.

I found this on a blog. Thought it was pretty cool.

 

[JT77fp]

Hi everyone, may I join your club? I was just looking around after FF7R and I'm amazed that this place is still going. I don't intend to post much, but I was involved in the original Faith club from way back and didn't even know Faith 3 existed until recently. I'm simply gobsmacked.

Anyway, I echo most comments here about FF7R building strongly on CxT's relationship early on. My first impressions also were that they were definitely not social distancing with each other! Very touchy feely, but built up gradually. Most of it started...

Spoiler

after Cloud's speech about recalling his promise and committing to staying to help Tifa. To me that was a significant change from the original, without Tifa even having to remind him of that promise. It really started building and establishing their relationship strongly before Aerith was introduced, making Aerith seem more of the outsider coming in. Didn't get that impression in the OG, and Aerith's character herself seems to be aware of that dynamic too.

Have fun and carry on!

 

[Graymouse]

Hi everyone, may I join your club? I was just looking around after FF7R and I'm amazed that this place is still going. I don't intend to post much, but I was involved in the original Faith club from way back and didn't even know Faith 3 existed until recently. I'm simply gobsmacked.

Anyway, I echo most comments here about FF7R building strongly on CxT's relationship early on. My first impressions also were that they were definitely not social distancing with each other! Very touchy feely, but built up gradually. Most of it started...

Spoiler

after Cloud's speech about recalling his promise and committing to staying to help Tifa. To me that was a significant change from the original, without Tifa even having to remind him of that promise. It really started building and establishing their relationship strongly before Aerith was introduced, making Aerith seem more of the outsider coming in. Didn't get that impression in the OG, and Aerith's character herself seems to be aware of that dynamic too.

Have fun and carry on!

No membership is required. More the merrier I always say.

I voted a few hours ago (didn't comment though) and reading the comments was awful.


Okay follow up to my other post, here is 6 screenshots from Chapter 17 (and one from the very end of 16). I know this is the Cloti club but I don't want to sound crazy, characters standing next to each other doesn't mean they are in love, but I will say that Cloud and Tifa are consistently portrayed together and I think that MIGHT mean something (because I love wearing my shipping goggles in here lol).

Spoiler: Cloud and Tifa standing together

View attachment 6732

@RhinoKart The bottom middle picture, is the one I was most shocked by when I first played the Remake. The position of Tifa at Cloud's bedside, to me is subtle hints at what is to come in the future in Mideel. Usually that position is only reserved for "special people"

 

[JT77fp]

Reading some of those comments on that poll makes me sad. It is amazing how twisted things can get when you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

It's always been twisted. Even in the OG, even if you didn't know that Cloud and Tifa ended up living together as a family unit etc, you'd have to ignore the the biggest revelation in the game: The Lifestream sequence which showed the true Cloud had basically been in love with Tifa all his life. And the Highwind scene of course. All that has been discussed to death, but one thing I don't think has been mentioned enough is how the true Cloud was just a ball of positivity after regaining himself. His speech to everyone when they rejoined him and Tifa on the Highwind was:

"Let's all go together."
"Memories of Aerith......"
"Although she should've returned to the planet by now, something
stopped her and now she's stuck......"
"We've got to let go of Aerith's memory."

This isn't important just from a Cloti perspective (I'm really not interested in the so-called LT debate), but overall to the story and to Cloud's character. No more 'illusions' in his mind, but rather a speech grounded in reality.

Of course, this carried through to the start of CoT, where he was the proton to Tifa's negatively charged electron. Always comforting her and reassuring her of their future together.

 

[RhinoKart]

No membership is required. More the merrier I always say.




@RhinoKart The bottom middle picture, is the one I was most shocked by when I first played the Remake. The position of Tifa at Cloud's bedside, to me is subtle hints at what is to come in the future in Mideel. Usually that position is only reserved for "special people"

Welcome @JT77fp !!!

@Graymouse I think to me even more so than Tifa at the bedside, it was the placement of everyone else noticeably NOT at the bedside, and that we got a pan of the room that showed us very clearly that it was only Tifa there. There are so many little things like that in the last few chapters and I really do think it is significant.

All 3 resolutions happen, one where Cloud acts jealous hearing about another guy hitting on Tifa, one where Cloud hugs Tifa, and one where Aerith tells him he can't fall in love with her, and even if he has it isn't real.

We then spend the remainder of the game getting only Cloti ship moments, and Cloud and Tifa standing together and taking leading roles in party leadership and helping out each other.

Even at Destiny's crossroads when everyone should just be focused on Aerith, we have this perfect moment where we could get some kind of heartfelt Clerith scene, but instead they have Cloud direct his attention over his shoulder to Tifa multiple times.

Then when fighting the whispers, we have whisper rubrum attack Tifa. Only Tifa. Why? Given how the love triangle was handled in chapters 10/11 (where if one girl got a moment with Cloud, so did the other), why not have BOTH Aerith and Tifa need to be saved by Cloud from the whisper rubrum? They are standing right next to each other, there is no good reason I can think of for why there is a scene here of Cloud only saving Tifa. Yet there is.

I mean I'm wearing full shipping goggles today (and also had some wine...) but to me these decisions to put C/T constantly together, to have the shipping moments go to them, to have Tifa at Cloud's bedside and saving him on the roof, and have Cloud saving just her, they mean something. If the Dev's wanted to keep it equal for both ships they had opportunity here to do so, they chose not too.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Welcome @JT77fp !!!

@Graymouse I think to me even more so than Tifa at the bedside, it was the placement of everyone else noticeably NOT at the bedside, and that we got a pan of the room that showed us very clearly that it was only Tifa there. There are so many little things like that in the last few chapters and I really do think it is significant.

All 3 resolutions happen, one where Cloud acts jealous hearing about another guy hitting on Tifa, one where Cloud hugs Tifa, and one where Aerith tells him he can't fall in love with her, and even if he has it isn't real.

We then spend the remainder of the game getting only Cloti ship moments, and Cloud and Tifa standing together and taking leading roles in party leadership and helping out each other.

Even at Destiny's crossroads when everyone should just be focused on Aerith, we have this perfect moment where we could get some kind of heartfelt Clerith scene, but instead they have Cloud direct his attention over his shoulder to Tifa multiple times.

Then when fighting the whispers, we have whisper rubrum attack Tifa. Only Tifa. Why? Given how the love triangle was handled in chapters 10/11 (where if one girl got a moment with Cloud, so did the other), why not have BOTH Aerith and Tifa need to be saved by Cloud from the whisper rubrum? They are standing right next to each other, there is no good reason I can think of for why there is a scene here of Cloud only saving Tifa. Yet there is.

I mean I'm wearing full shipping goggles today (and also had some wine...) but to me these decisions to put C/T constantly together, to have the shipping moments go to them, to have Tifa at Cloud's bedside and saving him on the roof, and have Cloud saving just her, they mean something. If the Dev's wanted to keep it equal for both ships they had opportunity here to do so, they chose not too.

Something people need to think about is what would be Tifa's role outside of her relationship to Cloud? The answer is none, beyond being a background character similar to Yuffie that is. I don't say this to denigrate her, but it's just a fact. Her story revolves around Cloud. Ergo, the devs are left with two or three options. Either preserve/expand upon her relationship with Cloud, reduce her to irrelevancy, or kill her character off. Of these options, which do you guys think is likely?

Aerith's story doesn't rely on Cloud, however. Her story revolves around the external plot, Sephiroth and meteor. You can take Cloud out of the equation, and she would still have something to do. Given this, does it make any sense to expand upon her relationship with Cloud? Ask yourself WHAT is the point of her relationship with Cloud? When you can come with a logical answer, you'll have figured out what the devs plan on doing with her character, IF they plan on doing anything different from the OG with her character.

 

[Graymouse]

@RhinoKart You just brought up a point that I have almost forgotten. In the OG was there ever a time where Aerith was the party leader? I know that Tifa was the party leader for some time when they were looking for the Huge Material.

Even then, when Tifa, got on the Highwind after her slaptastic fight with Scarlet, she was looking for Cloud. In fact, when someone mentioned that "everyone" was aboard, she got really excited, and ran to find Cloud. However, when reality hit her that Cloud wasn't there I felt that everything up to that point in the game became secondary to her. She was mainly looking for Cloud. Although, I know that she took on her duties like a leader should, but I felt that even then those duties were secondary. Her search finally ended when she found him in Mideel. Afterwards, she never left his side. The picture below kinda reinforces my position because it is Cloud who she cared about all along before she even found him.



I could be looking at this through biases lens, so please correct me if I am wrong. Anyways, what a women! I don't see why she receives such hate. I would go out on a limb here and say that Tifa is the MOST grounded and most believable FF character in the entire franchise!

 

[verse1994]

How are we losing???

I think those Clerith bought some bots for voting after they found out they lost. Just a moment, the CA increased in an insane rate.....