Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

[minami758]

"Tifa was just a childhood crush" would only make sense as an argument if it were revealed extremely early on in the story. The fact that it's revealed during the climax of Cloud's emotional journey gives no other option unless you're willfully ignorant but to see it as both extremely important and continuously present.

Anyway, back to more drama-free topics, that Spykeee art is so lovely! I love seeing them being happy post-AC. So much amazing art coming out due to the Remake, it's amazing.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1275499268737060866

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1275468988231725056

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1275417133426458626

 

[odekopeko]

Thanks @minami758 for steering us away from dangerous waters. That was close!

The SPYKEE artwork is super sweet, I just had to leave a comment on his acc. During AC, Cloud was just a few years older than me. Definitely not ready to be a father. But post-AC/DoC? I'd like to imagine some of his earlier restlessness would have worn off, and he and Tifa would finally settle down and have a kid of their own.

Also, hoping to find some fanfic where it's not all about their marital woes, and they're training Denzel on how to fight and protect himself and Marlene as well, and it shows them going into battle. I love domestic Cloti, but my idea of domesticity for them still seems to involve battling and protecting Edge from monsters, like how they went around doing those side quests in Remake Ch.3.

 

[minami758]

It's hilarious to think that they're basically famous in Edge due to saving the world twice, and still manage to find some cooldown time running a bar and a delivery service. I loved that reference to it in the Remake too, when they're looking down on the Sector 7 wreckage and they talk about building another bar. I'm a sucker for found family stories, and FF7 is one of the best in that regard.

 

[Eerie]

Coming back to what made cloti canon, to me while playing the OG, was a combination of Cloud telling Tifa that only what she thought mattered, followed by the Lifestream scene. These two scenes solidified what Cloud felt about Tifa to me. The first, I was like, "woah, what are you saying Cloud, that you favoured Tifa over Aerith all this time because only what she thinks is important?" No matter how you turned that, it just meant that Tifa was just that important to Cloud, much more than anyone else. And I wasn't even aware that it was not the real Cloud yet.

Then the Lifestream scene happened, and I was just like "woah, wait, he's got it so hard for her, whaaaaaaaaaat" hahaha. If you want to say "that's in the past", it doesn't explain how he calls out for Tifa and only for her. To Cloud, all of this is fresh in his heart. He's been in love with Tifa all along, trying to impress her, attacking Sephiroth in a fit of rage and despair over losing his mother, Tifa and his village... all of this happened just yesterday for him. It doesn't make sense to say "it's in the past" because it's still very much the burning present to him, still amongst the reasons why he goes after Sephiroth. There's a reason why "Reunion" is a cloti theme, why it's engraved in the Promise and in Tifa's theme, because they both long for their reunion - and the Lifestream scene IS their reunion. And it's just sooooooo intimate, it's like Cloud's memories and heart are being inspected haha "oh yeah Tifa, whom I always loved, whom I connect all my important moments to, oh yeah, errr, I was meant to hide this y'a know" well too bad for you Cloud, your feelings are quite bare there lol.

In the OG, it's a huge turn because Tifa doesn't look so much like she has Cloud's favour prior to this. The game pushes clerith hard, to make players care about Aerith and give them the false sense of security that a love interest usually has (eg: doesn't die). You are pushed to chose Aerith over Tifa, generally speaking, and Aerith herself doesn't hesitate to flirt openly with Cloud. I remember that I became very protective of Tifa because of the way the OG treated her in the first part of the game I didn't like how Cloud treated her, so I didn't ship cloti. It took the Lifestream scene to make me go "ok you care enough about her, I can ship you two together" lol - I suddenly feel like Marle, ehhhhhhh.

I have already said it, but I'm glad the Remake is laying down things differently. Because, as much as a shock that came out, for many people, the game pushed clerith too hard, so they thought the game had an open ending. And yeah don't remind me about cloti living together and raising two kids together yet only being friends, let's get real there, this was a stupid argument. But back then it wasn't established that the HA Highwind scene was the canon route, and many people disproved it with Cloud's last vague line "I want to meet her". Yeah, let's say that I hope that Remake will not have this line again or the LTD will never end.

At least now we have a pretty solid foundation for cloti that can only expand in the next game. I am looking forward the Kalm's flashback - and everyone's reaction there, hopefully we will have an aerti convo about it too. I'm also looking the Gongaga flashback, because I'm quite sure Aerith will be mandatory this time around to have around. Then there's Costa del Sol (bikinis, pretty please SE?) and Gold Saucer for a little fun~~

 

[RhinoKart]

Just wanted to pop in with a few more screen shots! Here is a collection of 6 subtle Cloti moments in the first half of the game! Also I'm just putting these in spoiler tags all the time so my giant posts aren't quite as annoying to skip over if you are just scrolling.

Spoiler: Subtle Cloti moments

To explain them:

-Top left: we have Cloud giving Tifa the faintest of smiles as she finishes crossing the floating platforms in the sewers. Extra cute because a few chapters earlier he mentions that she'd be good at keeping her balance on a tightrope, turns out she is pretty good at keeping her balance!

-Top Middle: we have a way more obvious smile from Cloud as he subtly looks at Tifa while she talks about going shopping top side. He's happy that she is being cheerful.

-Top Right: we have Tifa doing this cute flirty movement towards Cloud. He's just tried to impress everyone by fighting off all the enemies in the sewers alone and Tifa is impressed (or at least acting impressed) at his hero act.

-Bottom Left: This is super cute, so after the handcatch scene we get the "you're crazy exchange" where Cloud lets go of Tifa. We then cut to Reno and Rude and when the camera returns to Cloud and Tifa, he has put his hand back on Tifa's arm. He just wants to make sure he knows where she is while checking for danger.

-Bottom Middle: a nice moment between Cloud. Tifa and Barret in the reactor 5 elevator, but Tifa's body language is 100% flirting with Cloud. It's a cute team building moment but also a cute flirting moment. Everyone is smiles all around.

-Bottom Right: Okay I LOVE this moment. Cloud is hallucinating Sephiroth, you know the person he hates and is most afraid of, but as soon as Tifa appears Cloud takes his eyes off of Sephiroth to make sure Tifa is okay and yells at her to get back inside (where she will persumably be safer than outside with Sephiroth). Bonus points because Cloud hasn't even recalled the promise to protect her at this point, so his concern for her safety is entirely coming from just his desire to do that, and not any possible feelings of obligation or duty.

 

[iamhorde]

It pains me to no end that after more than 20 years and a bunch of information later, I still see things like "Cloud just settled for Tifa", "Tifa won by default" and so on going around the casual fandom. As a woman, I find it so disrespectful ( anyone should find it disrespectful actually regardless of gender) that she's still seen as such, honestly.

To take the sting out of it, every time I hear someone say "Tifa won by default", I'd just think "Well, of course she did. Tifa's the full package - great looks, devoted, courageous... there was no comparison to begin with".

To a certain extent, it's reflected in the Remake. So many characters in the game were asking Cloud about Tifa and even more were gushing about Tifa.

• Sector 7 Item shop guy had a crush on her
• Johnny
• The general male populace surrounding Seventh Heaven (just stand around outside the bar and you'll hear how thirsty they are, pun intended)
• Chocobo Sam
• The guy who tried to give flowers to Tifa (as heard from Barret's resolution scene)
• Last but not least, Cloud nodding to wanting a life with Tifa / Tifa being his type.

So the next time someone says "Tifa won by default", I'd just say "yea, of course, she's such a great character"

With the Remake, not only have they had another decade-plus to figure out who these characters are, but they also have so much more real estate to work with, allowing the story to breathe and the relationships to develop in an organic manner.

Do you think that the developers' personal view on love and relationships may have changed how they wrote it into the story as well? I read the following interview stating that the Cloud and Tifa hug almost didn't happen but Nojima pushed for it saying "he's young though, so why wouldn't he just do it?". I don't exactly understand the cultural nuance or implication of that statement is but it's not surprising that people view love and relationships differently throughout their lives.

Considering that Kitase and several of the developers did indicate that they could be working on FF7 Remake for the rest of their careers, perhaps their view on giving this LTD a proper closure might have changed. Perhaps they know when this is over, it's time to close the book on FF7 and the characters deserve a more definite and hopefully happy ending... with some romance involved.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255790104884342784

 

[RhinoKart]

I wonder what the hug scene actually looked like before it was changed. We know Cloud didn't hug Tifa in return, but did the rest play out the same? Did she still walk up to him crying and he just doesn't hug her? Or does she cry and never walk towards him, because that would change my perception of the original scene.

If she cries on his shoulder and he can't react I would feel like it was rejection and be pretty upset, but if it was more she was crying on her own and he just couldn't figure out WHAT to do about it I'd feel like it was being faithful to the Cloud-doesn't-understand-social-interaction part, and be less annoyed (although hugging her is still the best option).

As for the "they are young" comment. What I think he means is that because of their age/lack of maturity they are more likely to give in to their feelings and express emotions openly, instead of being in control of their emotions/expression of emotions. I don't really know enough about Japanese culture to say if that is an accurate interpretation but I'm at a loss for how else to understand that statement.

 

[minami758]

As for the "they are young" comment. What I think he means is that because of their age/lack of maturity they are more likely to give in to their feelings and express emotions openly, instead of being in control of their emotions/expression of emotions. I don't really know enough about Japanese culture to say if that is an accurate interpretation but I'm at a loss for how else to understand that statement.

Toriyama in the final Remake Ultimania interview: "Well we weren't going to have Cloud and Tifa have sex at first, but then Nojima said 'they're young though, so wouldn't they just do it?' so I changed it to them having sex."

 

[Stiggie]

Toriyama in the final Remake Ultimania interview: "Well we weren't going to have Cloud and Tifa have sex at first, but then Nojima said 'they're young though, so wouldn't they just do it?' so I changed it to them having sex."

You have no idea how unreasonably happy that would make me.

 

[Graymouse]

Toriyama in the final Remake Ultimania interview: "Well we weren't going to have Cloud and Tifa have sex at first, but then Nojima said 'they're young though, so wouldn't they just do it?' so I changed it to them having sex."

Coitus better be had under the High Wind, with HD graphics, (who am I kidding all we are going to get is a fade to black, or a camera pan to the sky filled with stars). As Tifa utters those magical words,

Words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel.

 

[insanehobbit]

Do you think that the developers' personal view on love and relationships may have changed how they wrote it into the story as well?

I don't know enough about the devs' personal lives to speculate, but I do think most people mellow with age. In regards to love, when you're younger, you're always thinking about the fall, how you're going to meet the one person that's going to change your life forever. You never really think about all the work that's yet to come.

Cloti is fairly unique in SE's history, in that we do get to see those struggles. I don't know how deep into Post-OG territory the game is going to get, but I think that aspect of the relationship would resonate more with the devs the later they are in their careers. Even within the timeline of the OG, strip away all the Sephiroth and Jenova, and most of the tension in Cloud/Tifa's relationship boils down to a failure to communicate. It's almost refreshingly mundane, but again, with age, you do begin to appreciate how how hard it is, and how satisfying it is when you're finally able to work through it.

Specifically with Nojima, I feel like he's always been the one who had the best grasp of Cloud and Tifa's relationship and was the most invested in it, even during the AC era. There were so many cooks in that kitchen then, so I doubt he always got his way. This time around, it feels like he has a lot more creative influence, which has worked in our favor thus far.

I think the devs realize that FF7R project will be their legacy. Ultimately, I see FF7 as a story of hope in spite of (and arguably because of) wrenching loss and failure. I also think Cloud and Tifa's relationship, and the resilience of said relationship, is one of the aspects that best exemplifies those themes. While the specifics of the execution are up in the air, I'm fairly hopeful they'll be done justice by the end of this.

 

[JT77fp]

Here is a collection of 6 subtle Cloti moments in the first half of the game!

Loved that. Good recaps of each one too!

I also like the moment from Graymouse's avatar, when Cloud pulls Tifa back from a falling box at the Seventh Heaven ruins. She pats (caresses?) his arm in return. It had nothing to do with the action of being saved, so it was a nice, completely voluntary act that just builds the sense of empathy and compassion between them.

I remember that I became very protective of Tifa because of the way the OG treated her in the first part of the game I didn't like how Cloud treated her, so I didn't ship cloti. It took the Lifestream scene to make me go "ok you care enough about her, I can ship you two together" lol - I suddenly feel like Marle, ehhhhhhh.

Haha, fair enough! I didn't think Cloud treated her that badly, and Tifa was very closed off herself. I remember the second act of the game being terrific. So much mystery, tension and tragedy. With some romance too, but that's all it was regardless of which female (or male!) characters you favoured. I saw exciting new romance, but with too much unresolved stuff hanging over everyone's heads for deep love and commitment to develop.

Despite that, even at the height of Cloud's mental breakdown, as he hands the black materia to Sephy, he apologises to everyone and still singles out Tifa: "Especially you, Tifa. I'm really sorry. You've been good to me...... I don't know what to say...I never lived up to being 'Cloud'. Tifa... Maybe one day you'll meet the real 'Cloud'." I felt that Cloud saying that at that moment brought Tifa back to him later in Mideel. Even as everyone dismissed him as a clone, Tifa still loved him and I thought that speech made it believable. The lifestream scene brought Cloud back, but before that, I think those words brought Tifa back to him.

EDITED to add: I can't express how powerful that scene was for me on subsequent playthroughs of the OG. Cloud is considered aloof and 'clueless' when it comes to women, but I've never accepted that interpretation. Sure, he's a bit clueless on the flirting side, but when it counts, he's shown to be empathetic especially with Tifa. His words above are basically saying goodbye to her. It's a heartbreaking farewell - he's spent the past few weeks/months rediscovering his childhood friend and seeing how much *Cloud* means to her, only to find out that he's not *Cloud*. But the empathy part is that even as he gives her up, he wants her to find the real Cloud (whoever that may be) and be happy with him. He knows of her feelings (as does everyone else - it's not rockettown science).

I know I'm the one who just said "Let's be cautious with our expectation!" but what are the things you're most excited/looking forward to in Part 2?

I hope the above answered your question too! Besides that, I want to see the true romance of all FF7: Cid x Shera!

 

[Graymouse]

I want to go back a few posts when you guys were talking about the Life-stream discussion. The dialog below is important to my point:

Tifa
But when we were in the Lifestream surrounded by all those screams of anguish, I thought I heard your voice...
She closes her eyes, crying softly. Her arms fall to her sides and she bows her head.
Tifa
...sniff... you probably don't remember this...

Tifa
But deep in my heart I heard you calling my name... Or at least I thought I did...
Cloud looks away and puts a hand to his face
Cloud
Yeah... At that time I heard you calling me.
Cloud
You were calling me back in from the stream of consciousness in the Lifestream.
He lowers his hand. He nods
Cloud
After all, I promised. That if anything were to ever happen to you, I would come to help.

The reason I mentioned that is that we see this in the Remake, it is just on a smaller scale and well disguised, that you really don't notice until you think about it. I have a theory that can help explain all the touchy-feely moments between these two during the Remake. I genuinely think that deep down in their hearts they subconsciously call out to each other, but for right now only their subconscious can hear their cries. If you really pay attention to these two and their reactions with each other, there are a lot of times during the game where they don't even realize that they are touching. It is so natural.

Perhaps I need to take off the glasses. What do you guys think? Am I going out on limb here or is there some substantial evidence, to this wild theory of mine?

 

[iamhorde]

Shipping glasses or not, I think it's fair to say that they are both drawn to each other. We see glimpses of what might be TrueCloud when he is with Tifa and there were multiple times where Tifa touched Cloud to calm him down. While it's not explicitly stated, I don't think it's too far fetched to assume both feel like they have lost something or is missing something and somehow only they can help each other to figure out what that is. You'll probably find your answer in Part 2. In the meantime, here are a few of those scenes that may validate your theory.

I also found it really interesting that Tifa and Aerith gave very different responses to Cloud's mako blue eyes.

In Chapter 3, after they beat up rescue Johnny, there was a scene where Tifa says "Your eyes. They used to be less..." suggesting that she's longing for the old / TrueCloud

Whereas in Chapter 9 at the playground, Aerith seemed to be drawn to Cloud's eyes, because she's probably longing for her first love.

 

[odekopeko]

I'm dying, Amusement Park CloTi/KuraTi are so cute.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1275786259382722560

I know some of you guys want the GS to not be optional because...reasons, but I really want to see them go on a date there. I wasn't happy satisfied with the original only have emotional, impactful moments for these two, without a bit of fun. (I got the Aerith date on my play through.)

 

[Cat on Mars]

PSA:
If posters keep having LTD talk here I'm punishing all of you without dessert. I've been sitting on a spicy CloTi pic because of this issue.

Spoiler: This pic.

The recent posts are good.
Be good and don't piss me off and we all will enjoy some smutty content.

 

[Yumelinh]

Can someone please PM me the link to the Cloti discord server if possible? Someone linked it here time ago but I didn't join because I was like..."haha won't let FFVII take over my life again!!" ...well, too late now Might as well enjoy the hype while it lasts!


And moar fanartsss:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1275755588975116288

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1275729387099430917

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274757153748746240

 

[insanehobbit]

I also found it really interesting that Tifa and Aerith gave very different responses to Cloud's mako blue eyes.

In Chapter 3, after they beat up rescue Johnny, there was a scene where Tifa says "Your eyes. They used to be less..." suggesting that she's longing for the old / TrueCloud

I really loved this little detail in the Remake. I think Jessie too compliments him on his eyes. Both she and Aerith allow him to play into his SOLDIER/hero persona, whereas Tifa, the girl he adopted this entire persona for, is a lot more responsive to his awkward, Country boy self (e.g., his flirting and the moment in his room where he says he'll listen) than any of his badass heroics.

Both Cloud and Tifa put each other on a bit of a pedestal at the beginning of the game. With Cloud, he thinks that she's so unobtainable that the only way he can even get her to notice him is by becoming a famous SOLDIER. With Tifa, it's less that she sees him as this hero who is going to come to her rescue, and more that he is the only connection she has to her past. During the five years (or seven in her mind), that they've been apart, she builds him up not only as someone who was different from all the other boys back home, but also now as the last remnant of home.

As much as I love all their moments in the Midgar section, it's only through the rest of the game, where they begin to see each other more clearly, as the flawed and fallible people they really are, that they're finally in a place where they are right for each other.

I know some of you guys want the GS to not be optional because...reasons, but I really want to see them go on a date there. I wasn't happy satisfied with the original only have emotional, impactful moments for these two, without a bit of fun. (I got the Aerith date on my play through.)

I'm really curious how the GS date scenario will play out in the next part, since we've already used the affection mechanics for the resolution scene in Ch. 14, and also because we are now arguably owed 3 dates from Part 1 (Cloud-Tifa, Cloud-Aerith, Aerith-Tifa). Are we gonna have another scenario when they all happen in one night?

 

[minami758]

Can someone please PM me the link to the Cloti discord server if possible? Someone linked it here time ago but I didn't join because I was like..."haha won't let FFVII take over my life again!!" ...well, too late now Might as well enjoy the hype while it lasts!

I can message you! If anyone else is interested in joining the CT discord, let me know.

I'm really curious how the GS date scenario will play out in the next part, since we've already used the affection mechanics for the resolution scene in Ch. 14, and also because we are now arguably owed 3 dates from Part 1 (Cloud-Tifa, Cloud-Aerith, Aerith-Tifa). Are we gonna have another scenario when they all happen in one night?

Re: GS date — I'm gunning for Cloti/Aerti dates, personally. I'm pretty sure the Cloud/Aerith date has already happened in the Remake. At least, there's a part in the game (sometime during Chapter 8) where Aerith is like, "you're getting paid right now!" and Cloud realizes she considers the time they're spending together as her holding up her end of the bargain.

So the only owed dates now are the Cloud-Tifa and Aerith-Tifa dates, hehe. Though I don't know if it'll actually come to pass, lol. I assume GS will have some sort of fun stuff going on though, kind of like Wall Market.

 

[Yumelinh]

I'm really curious how the GS date scenario will play out in the next part, since we've already used the affection mechanics for the resolution scene in Ch. 14, and also because we are now arguably owed 3 dates from Part 1 (Cloud-Tifa, Cloud-Aerith, Aerith-Tifa). Are we gonna have another scenario when they all happen in one night?

Actually, Aerith already 'paid' her date with Cloud. In JP this is more clear as she says "I paid a great price for his service! Mom, listen to me" (direct translate) [credits for the translation] when they arrive at her house, plus when she says "You're already being paid" on the way to there.

Still, I think the scenario where all of them happen in one night is the most possible outcome (that way we can get ours as well ), and if it's not optional then it will probably be the Aerith one. (That said... I really want to have an Aerith-Tifa date option )

 

[Cat on Mars]

If there isn't one AerTi date option I'll torch SE offices I'll be very disappointed.

 

[odekopeko]

If AerTi is a date option, then I'm 100% ditching Cloud. Sorry, not sorry.

 

[minami758]

Glad we're all on the same page on this one. Aerti reigns supreme. Cloud can go on the gondola with Barret while Aerith and Tifa go shopping, lol.

 

[Yumelinh]

Glad we're all on the same page on this one. Aerti reigns supreme. Cloud can go on the gondola with Barret while Aerith and Tifa go shopping, lol.

yeees! If he wants to tag along to carry the bags that's fine! but if not then it's ditching time~~

 

[insanehobbit]

Actually, Aerith already 'paid' her date with Cloud. In JP this is more clear as she says "I paid a great price for his service! Mom, listen to me" (direct translate) [credits for the translation] when they arrive at her house, plus when she says "You're already being paid" on the way to there.

That's what I thought I thought the ENG dialogue was implying! But I wasn't sure if I was just hearing what I wanted to, haha. Again it is quite....interesting how this particular date is being treated in the Remake vis-a-vis its prominence in the OG. Though I will have to say, I absolutely love how Remake!Aerith manages to secure a date with anyone she likes within 5 minutes of meeting them. What an icon.