Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

[minami758]

Man, I don't remember exactly when I got introduced to Cloud and Tifa, but I do remember that it was through Advent Children. I think I saw a photo of them lying in that yin-yang position in the flowers and I was like, "who are these people, I need to know." It's also why, as much as I think AC/C is a terrible movie, I can't hate it completely because it introduced me to the wonderful ship that is Cloti.

So I watched the movie and my adolescent brain basically loved the two of them together just based on the scene where Cloud finds Tifa in the church alone. It also sold me on Tifa as a character because her fight against Loz is just so badass. It's the only part of the movie that I occasionally like to revisit on Youtube, lol.

Then I went on a deep dive into their relationship by playing the OG, and the Lifestream scene sold me even more. I was a big fan of their dynamic, but FF7 when I was younger wasn't a huge fandom interest for me (because the series was over and CT was canon as far as I knew), so I never spent too much time diving into the LTD or other things. Then I think around the time AC Complete was ramping up to release I found TLS and began lurking around here and got invested in LTD arguments. I remember reading about the Highwind's canonicity being confirmed in the Ultimania on TLS, and being overjoyed.

Anyway, then I spent my fandom interests on other things again because nothing new was coming out about FF7 until the Remake was announced. Then it took too long to come out so I drifted away again... but now with the Remake out I'm all up in my CT feelings again because what the fuck we got fed so well???

 

[odekopeko]

Curious to know if your brother has a view on Cloud's relationships or if he doesn't really care?

He hates me bringing up shipping stuff, but he was the one that spoiled the Highwind scene for me (partly my fault because I was curious and asked), so pretty safe for me to say he thinks they had sex too. I just vehemently disagree with him saying that she had experience because of that famous line of hers.

 

[insanehobbit]

Such lovely responses! Thanks for sharing, everyone.

May I know what 10k daily word quota is that? Always love reading your views / analysis so I'm sure we wouldn't mind you fulfilling your word count here

Haha, that was a bad attempt at a joke about my long-windedness, but since you asked...

Spoiler: under a cut, because this is ridiculously long, even for me

I also came to the pair in a rather embarrassing way. When I was in middle school (this was a few years after the game was released), my friends would always talk about the Final Fantasy games, but I didn't have own a gaming console, so I actually ended up reading the game script first before ever playing the game. Even before then, based just on the aesthetics and what little I knew of the plot, I had decided that Tifa was my girl, and since she liked Cloud, I thought I ought to like the pairing as well.

I did finally play the game itself a little while later, but my perception remained the same. I had a pretty shallow understanding of love so what appealed to me most about the relationship were the big obvious gestures of love and devotion, namely Tifa staying by Cloud's side in Mideel, the Lifestream sequence, and Tifa's famous "Words aren't the only way..." line under the Highwind.

This was around the time we started getting the first details about AC/The Compilation, so the fandom was pretty active. I was young and unafraid to share my dumb opinions online, so I quickly found ACF and started getting active in the LTD over there. In retrospect, my participation in the LTD really warped my appreciation for the pairing. Rather than spending my time thinking about what I liked about the characters and their relationship together, I was much more invested in it being unequivocally proven canon. To that measure, the most exciting moments for me were when we learned that Cloud and Tifa were living together in AC, Cloud's explicit affection for Tifa in CoT, and Tifa being Cloud's light in KH2. Again, the kind of stuff where the romantic implications were glaringly obvious. AC itself was a disappointment in part because I didn't get that big romantic gesture from Cloud to Tifa that I thought would end the LTD for good.

With the dearth of new information, I slowly drifted out of fandom before ACC. I would check in now and then like I would an old ex, but there was really nothing that made me want to get invested again. I revisited a number of old fandoms over the years. Some found new resonance with age, others I felt like I had outgrown. I thought Cloti/FF7 was part of the latter. Since mopey AC!Cloud was the last we saw of him, and left such a bad taste in my mouth, I kind of questioned why I had even liked this pairing in the first place and thought that Tifa deserved so much better.

When the Remake was officially announced, I had a pretty tepid reaction. I felt like I had moved past that stage of my life. I would only play the Remake so that my middle school self could be vindicated. That pessimism didn't change as more info came out, especially when I found out the first game would only cover Midgar (which was not the best part of the game for our ship), so I knew the wait would not be over anytime soon.

Actually playing the Remake changed everything for me. A big part of it was Cloud's characterization. Gone was the asshole who didn't give a shit about anyone. Here was a guy who might put about a front, but really cared deep down, and especially cared about Tifa. It wasn't just all the touching that got me, but all the times, when this emotionally stunted guy was so open about his concern for Tifa's emotional well-being. We know how much Tifa will do for Cloud, but what did Cloud ever do for Tifa was my question. Finally, we know. Finally, this Cloud might actually deserve her.

It's funny, many of the aspects of their relationship I found to be kind of a downer when I was younger are now the things I love the most. Sure, it all takes place in sci-fi fantasy setting, but they are such a grounded pair. What I can really appreciate now is that their relationship (and their lives in general), is one defined by failure, but they keep trying for each other's sake, even knowing all this, even though it's hard. (It's like Cloud's line to Tifa in CoT -- only he's still failing even after they're together, but that's okay). It's imperfect, it's not obviously romantic, but I find it quite moving that despite it all, they're always willing to make the effort. They're not trying to change each other. They know each other too well for that. But they're always pushing each other towards a better version of themselves.

They also remind me a bit of my favorite couple in literature, Levin/Kitty in Anna Karenina. When the novel opens, Levin proposes to Kitty, and she immediately rejects him. And rightfully so, they're both rather immature and wrong for each other in that moment. It's through the course of the novel that they are able to separately grow as individuals until they're at a point when they're right for each other. Then when Levin proposes for a second time, she accepts. For Cloud and Tifa, there's that moment at the water tower when they're kids, but they're not there yet, they can't look each other in the eyes. They can't be honest about how they feel. It's only years later, through journeys they take separately and together that they finally find themselves on the same page.

 

[Cat on Mars]

When I played the OG I couldn't care less about romance, I was 12-13 and played RPGs to do cool stuff like using swords and blow Mako reactors up.
So you can imagine my confusion when Tifa asked me if I remembered our promise (I was like "excuse me miss we just met what are you talking about" lol) and how annoyed I was when Aerith wanted to pay me with a date in exchange for being her bodyguard (lolwut) and the flower girl started to talk umprompted about her love life.
And how she totally was over her ex, yes nothing weird going on here.

OG Cloud is an asshole and I chose all the asshole answers because other character's reactions were funnier if you did. The only thing I did right in my first playthrough was giving Tifa a flower, and I got her date just because in the prison cell I talked to her a lot (unaware that there was a point system and that this dialogue was glitched and keeps giving you points with her) because I didn't want to hear Aerith talking about her love life in such dire straits. She did, of course.
I knew Tifa and Cloud were going to be the intended paring since we left Midgar. You don't build a shared past and backstory with two characters for no reason, it's a story and that's basic storytelling. I wasn't a Cloud/Tifa shipper, but the Lifestream sequence really drives home how deep their connection is. I remembered all the hints, all the "..." moments, and pieces started to fall into place.
So since they were the OTP I kinda shipped them, in a casual manner. I liked them enough. And for someone who disliked romance that much, it speaks volumes I could bear and even like their story.

AC was a disappointment. I don't know what I expected, but seeing Cloud regress to his loner persona made me rage. So. Much.
Tifa was the only good thing about that movie. Her fight was cool but not totally absurd (by anime standards) and she was the only character that emoted (along with Marlene) and made me have any interest in the plot, the rest sucked and the Turks stole the show. ACC made everything a bit better but I still disliked Cloud so much that after watching CC cutscenes I made a doujin with Zack and Tifa making out. Nah that's a lie, I made a shitload of porn with them just out of spite. That's what happens when you piss off a porn artist.
The other thing that happens is Sephinova.

Remake made me ship them. Cloud isn't a total asshole, in fact he's just plain awkward and not a people person in general than an asshole. Tifa is a bit more direct and playful and I love it. This time Tifa seems to know him better giving more credence to the whole "childhood friends" basic explanation of their really complicated backstory, they have good chemistry and make a great team. Also, Cloud really cares about Tifa's wellbeing this time and goes to great pains to show it, so when Mideel happens it won't look one-sided in the slightest.
I just love their dynamic and I've begun to appreciate it even in the depressing AC era.

Time for dessert! Please enjoy some smutty content by yours truly.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276513831200657408

Yay Friday!

 

[JT77fp]

The fanart on the previous page with CxT expecting a baby was really good! She looked...glowy! And Cloud going shopping in full armour while holding her hand with a glove on? Haha, come on man!

@Cat on Mars I dare not click on your dessert! There's kids around!

@insanehobbit: What drew me in to Cloti?

Spoiler: under a cut to save space

I played the OG in '99 in my late teens. People around me growing up, learning to drive, partying. Boys trying to impress girls...constantly...pretending to be something they weren't in order to hook up with someone (sound familiar?). That's what I thought relationships were about. Then along came Cloud, the anti-hero, who took this pretense to the extreme with an entire fake persona! But who later, with Tifa's help, could own up to his lies and be himself again.

But the real clincher was how Tifa dealt with it. She never abandoned him, despite him not living up to her childhood idealization of a hero. It made me wonder if relationships like that really exist? Well of course they do, but try telling that to my 18 year old self! That's what drew me in and it's a theme that's remained close to my heart all these years.

Back then, before Google was an established search engine. Before Facebook and social media, I had no idea of the LTD. I just saw two people who accepted each other for who they were and continually supporting each other. Even at the end, Tifa saying "Let's meet her there" (while giving her man a cuddle for finally being a hero and saving her) seemed like a perfectly normal statement of solidarity and support.

I guess I saw Cloti as the ideal relationship, even though the other half of my brain was aware this was ironic because the theme was about dispelling the notion of an ideal fairytale relationship!

 

[Cat on Mars]

@Cat on Mars I dare not click on your dessert! There's kids around!

You can make it a teachable moment.
But it's just a link to my patreon page with a bigger version of the picture from that tweet.

 

[odekopeko]

Time for dessert! Please enjoy some smutty content by yours truly.

OK, am I allowed to say that this is perfection? Because this is perfection! gochisousama.

The build up to when Tifa found him in Mideel, specifically just after boarding the Highwind after slapping the crap of Scarlet, Cait Sith said everyone is waiting, she ran to see if Cloud was on board. She looked for him, and the rest of the group noticed her change of behavior when she figured out he wasn't there. The groups reaction to her behavior said a lot about the way Tifa felt.

Oh, wow, I love this take so much! I completely forgot about this moment. That was so heartbreaking to see. For sure they're going to take out the Tifa versus Scarlett cat fight, or change it up, but I hope they keep the part after she boards the Highwind. https://emojipedia.org/folded-hands/

 

[Stiggie]

Yeah, to make a comparison to the Christian New Testament (lol, my brain worms are truly out of control today), you could say the OG/AC(C)/BC/CC/DC are the Gospels, the Nojima-penned novellas are the Epistles, and LO/Dismantled/Maiden are the Apocrypha.

Speaking of brain worms -- since discussion has slowed down a bit, and I have yet to hit my daily 10k word quota, I would love to hear from everyone about what aspect(s) of Cloud and Tifa's relationship drew you into it in the first place, and whether that's changed over time. Since people were first introduced to FF7 at different points in its 23 year history, not to mention at different stages in their own lives, I'm really curious to see the range of responses. (Only if you wanna share, of course!)

It's difficult for me to say what originally drove me to Cloti, since I was very young, and I can say that while I always preferred Tifa/Cloud over Aerith/Cloud, I can't say I became a shipper until later, and for different reasons.
At first, I simply preferred Tifa because that was the story, and I preferred Tifas character in general. I felt that the lifestream sequence was very well done and it blew my mind.

Later on, as I grew more and more fond of storytelling, my love for Cloti grew as a side effect of that. I often found myself analyzing final fantasy, especially IX, which was my favorite game, but more and more I also found myself thinking about FFVII, and especially Nibleheim as a narrative device. The more I thought about it, the more impressed I grew about how perfectly that mystery was written and executed, and how it takes advantage of the players hubris and sense of self-importance. To me, Aeriths death was never that important a moment, relatively speaking, for me, Nibleheim was the interesting plotpoint, and Aeriths deaths' importance to me was mostly as an attraction on the way to Clouds mind breaking.

And when it comes to Cloud and Nibelheim, Tifa is everything, so it's not surprising that the crux of the entire twist, the girl that set it all in motion, and resolves it, would start to become precious to me as well.
And of course, the more and more I thought about Cloud and Tifa and the way the story of Nibelheim fits together, the more I gained an appreciation of all the elements of that story, mostly, the love between Cloud and Tifa. And it didn't hurt that the more I thought about their motivations and struggles, the more Tifa started shining as a character. Her pain at losing everyone, at finding Cloud again, at her realizing there is something wrong with him, at not being able to talk to him, seeing him develop feelings for another girl, etc. It felt like she was just a human girl, who was in the background, standing tall while carrying the weight of the world on her shoulders, forcing herself to be strong for Cloud when she was in such need of comfort herself.
All her doubts, fears, and humanity just spoke to me more than the "magical female jesus" ever could.
The more I thought about it, the more I just felt like she was the full package, a gorgeous badass who lost everything, then trained her ass off to become a martial artist who could fight on par with genetically engineered super soldiers, no ancient magical powers, no mako cells. Just a shy, drop dead gorgeous girl juggling it all, staying strong until she's finally rewarded for all her pain by being reunited with Cloud.

I am a sucker for women who are going through tragedy, I was never much of a fan of Cloud but Tifa likes him and I just wanted my girl to, for once, have a happy ending.
It's why I also ship Rem with Subaru in re:zero even though I hate Subaru with the burning passion of a thousand suns.
The more a couple go through, the more I want them to be happy, and Tifa has gone through enough, that's why stuff like AC just made me root for them more, Tifa has invested and sacrificed so much, that I now feel invested in return.

Then CC made me love Zerith, which also made me love Cloti more as well.
And now we have the remake and a thousand small details, like the crescent ear ring, that is such a small, seemingly unimportant detail. And yet it speaks to me more than a lot of the grander displays of affection.

 

[Yumelinh]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276502403706044417

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276489788908920832

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276189506232700935

 

[insanehobbit]

Dumb question: is there a way to have tweets show up embedded in the body of the post?

This subject was broached a bit earlier, but does anyone else feel like Tifa's Post-OG arc remains unresolved? Cloud gets all of AC to work through his guilt/PTSD, but Tifa also has a huge amount of survivor guilt in CoT to the point where she essentially wishes Meteor would destroy her too so that she doesn't have to face it. Even the rebuilding and raising of the kids is a way for her to keep herself busy so she doesn't have to confront these feelings.

I think we're supposed to take her raising Denzel as the answer to her problems/the way to be redeemed (and Cloud leaving a blip that is mostly resolved by the end of AC), but I dunno. It still feels like her self-worth is very tied up in what she is able to do for others. It's not just that she's willing to put herself at risk to save others, but that she'll put herself at unnecessary risk because she doesn't place enough value on her own life. (This happens with the Corneo mission and and to an extent the Sector 7 Pillar, both of which Cloud call her out on.) Cloud finally allows himself to be happy at the end of AC. For Tifa, I still get the sense that she feels like she has to constantly earn that right.

She seems to be in a pretty good place in DoC, so maybe this is something that gets resolved off screen or maybe I'm reading too much into this.

I guess my real question ought to be why there are no therapists in the FF7 universe, lol

 

[odekopeko]

Dumb question: is there a way to have tweets show up embedded in the body of the post?

Just copy link to tweet and post. It should work.

 

[Cat on Mars]

It still feels like her self-worth is very tied up in what she is able to do for others. It's not just that she's willing to put herself at risk to save others, but that she'll put herself at unnecessary risk because she doesn't place enough value on her own life. (This happens with the Corneo mission and and to an extent the Sector 7 Pillar, both of which Cloud call her out on.)

That's just Tifa being Tifa. She's reckless, she's always been like that, since she was a child.
You're overthinking it. Tifa is a hothead, her shyness about her feelings doesn't mean she isn't impulsive. She tried to kill Sephiroth using his fucking Masamune. When she was fifteen. When she wasn't trained in sword fighting. And she picks up that gianormous thing that, in universe, only Sephiroth can wield.
She could have died right there. She gave no fucks.

OK, am I allowed to say that this is perfection? Because this is perfection! gochisousama.

Thank you! It's part of a illustration series I'm making for my Patreon, there's more there but it's content for Patrons only. I might release it in the future as CG set or something. What does gochisousama mean?

ETA:

Dumb question: is there a way to have tweets show up embedded in the body of the post?

See the toolbar?
1-Click "insert" (the ... icon, placed on the right of the smilies icon).
2-Choose "media".
3-Paste link into the field, click "Continue".
4-Post it.

 

[Edley]

@insanehobbit It's a valid point, but she's so young that I don't know if I could see her making a full accounting of her emotional inventory until later in life. Those kind of stories usually live in fandom if at all. I think helping push Cloud literally confront his demons and returning to their family had to be somewhat cathartic.

 

[RhinoKart]

I guess my real question ought to be why there are no therapists in the FF7 universe

Asking the real questions lol. Also almost every doctor we encounter in the compilation is evil.

As to Tifa's, I always felt like case of Tifa showed that Tifa would be able to move on from AVALANCHES activities. Both her and Barret share this regret and they choose to deal with it by living on in a way that they feel will help them atone for their sins. For Tifa that is a mixture of Seventh Heaven and raising Denzel. Cloud's arch is different because he also feels that he is to blame for the loss of Aerith and Zack and ACC is about him letting go of those feelings of guilt.

We don't ever get a specific moment where Tifa goes "yep my sins are gone now" but to me the implication was that by choosing to live and help others in time she would feel that she had atoned for them.

All that being said, I'm interested to see how Remake deals with these things. If it is the final compilation story then we may see these arcs come to a close. Tifa is already openly expressing feelings of guilt at Sector 7, and hesitation before the bombings. We may actually get some nod to her coming to terms with these things and moving forward. Remake also talked about how they were going to build another bar, something Tifa was originally against in CoT, so could be a hint that they are changing some things up.

 

[Graymouse]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276183954198917120

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276254765031124993

 

[Yumelinh]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276822410457567232

@Ruri look!! The babies coming back from school!!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276840058474033154

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276864952096002049

 

[insanehobbit]

Thanks guys. Sadly I do not have any fun tweets to contribute, though I did realize I am truly an idiot, and the reason I couldn't get other people's tweets to show up embedded was because of a privacy setting I had in my browser.

All that being said, I'm interested to see how Remake deals with these things. If it is the final compilation story then we may see these arcs come to a close. Tifa is already openly expressing feelings of guilt at Sector 7, and hesitation before the bombings. We may actually get some nod to her coming to terms with these things and moving forward. Remake also talked about how they were going to build another bar, something Tifa was originally against in CoT, so could be a hint that they are changing some things up.

That's a really good point. It's hard to tell how many of these subtler differences are their original intentions in the OG that they couldn't properly convey due to time/technological limits vs. deliberate changes in story and characterization. Though between stuff like this, Remake!Aerith's foresight, and time-traveling Sephiroth or whatever, it's hard for me to imagine that OtWtaS/AC will be the conclusion of the story this time around.

 

[odekopeko]

Once again here with nothing of substance to add.

Just wanted to ask something regarding the Alone At Last scene again.

English version:
Cloud: Uh... you don't need a break?
Tifa: Honestly I'm feeling pretty good. Marle isn't always right you know.

So in the English version, what exactly was Marle wrong about? I tried to understand, but I'm a little lost.

Japanese version:
Tifa: 時間もったいなくて
マーレさんには　内緒
I want to make the most of this time.
Let's keep it a secret from Marle.

 

[Eerie]

I think it’s because Marle told Cloud and therefore probably Tifa too that he needed to rest?

 

[Ruri]

@Yumelinh I have not yet seen that one! Ahhhh the joy this little family of four brings me!

Once again here with nothing of substance to add.

I will hear no such thing!

Thank you for comparing the two different versions. I feel 'I want to make the most of this time' is indicative of the underlying feelings that this relationship starts to build from and the English version washed it away. ;_; No idea with the Marle answer, I only have one playthrough under my belt and I can't remember everything she grilled Cloud over.

 

[odekopeko]

I think it’s because Marle told Cloud and therefore probably Tifa too that he needed to rest?

Thank you for comparing the two different versions. I feel 'I want to make the most of this time' is indicative of the underlying feelings that this relationship starts to build from and the English version washed it away. ;_; No idea with the Marle answer, I only have one playthrough under my belt and I can't remember everything she grilled Cloud over.

Oh shoot! I didn't mean to make comparisons this time. I thought maybe I missed some key dialog. She asked them to go to their rooms and switch out their filters, and Tifa left while Marle made Cloud stay behind. I was confused by both versions.

I rewatched on YouTube just now, and when you go up the stairs, Tifa is waiting for Cloud. I think maybe we're supposed to assume that she overheard Cloud's conversation with Marle? Maybe that's why she said that?

 

[verse1994]

For those who are interested, Famitsu is doing an official survey for those who have played #FF7R.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276771176182771719

 

[Yumelinh]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276943768793632768

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276946730009808896

 

[minami758]

@odekopeko I think both Japanese and English refer to Tifa indirectly telling Cloud that she overheard his and Marle's conversation downstairs, but I'm not 100%.

In the English, what I got was basically Cloud's "don't you need a break" as his attempt at taking Tifa's feelings/wellbeing into account. And Tifa reassuring him that Marle isn't always right, aka Cloud is already a good friend. But honestly it could also be a reference to Marle always telling them that they need rest. I'm not quite sure either, tbh!

I can't remember the Japanese at the moment, but it might be the same idea?

 

[iamhorde]

Another awesome Cloti video from SassyUnicorn 7!

SassyUnicorn came out of nowhere and started creating some of the best Cloti GMVs I've seen! Her first video of Cloti titled Slow Burn is already at 120k views and counting. So happy to see a Cloti video getting so much support. Hopefully even SE would take notice.

For those who are interested, Famitsu is doing an official survey for those who have played #FF7R.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276771176182771719

Thanks for sharing. I Google Translated my way through it just to vote for best girl, Tifa!

@Cat on Mars thanks for the lovely dessert!