FF12 or FF13

[Celes Chere]

FFXIII is just a bunch of stuff that happens.

*Applauds*

 

[Zee]

Um.. that's my point? There's no direction to the writing. Characters should have an end goal in mind, not fumbling around randomly, hoping they'll happen upon something to progress the plot. Watch any good 'on the run' movie and you'll know what I mean. Terminator 2, for example.

tbh that first half where they are "fumbling around randomly" is probably the most realistic reaction in an ff game?? like you said, they had this shitty destiny thrown on them which they had no motivation to fulfill, so why would they fulfill it? why would they randomly team up together when they had no common goal and no reason to? the first half of the game with all that ~randomness~ leads the characters to get over their own bullshit and we actually get to see why they come together as a group rather than "we're now a merry group just because!!"

 

[looneymoon]

I honestly think in terms of story, both games were paced and focalized (or not focalized) really badly.

FFXII handled a really expansive plot, but it's hard to care about it when you have little to no character insights. I recall quite a lot of pointless cut scenes which showed off the world a lot, but didn't do much in regards to character/plot development. When I was playing it, I felt like a lot was happening but didn't care enough to pay attention to it. It was easy to get sidetracked with just wandering around the map aimlessly because I literally had no incentive to forward the plot (unless it was to unlock more hunts).

FFXIII left to be desired as to what was happening in the world around the characters. It was just written so lazily I found. Character cut scenes are nice but it was literally impossible to follow what was going on unless you read the journals. I mean, the scenes were really emotional but it honestly felt like the characters were reacting to their own angst/sometimes each other more than they were reacting towards events happening around them (if that makes sense)?

In both cases, the weakness of the story telling sort of mutes the narrative strengths ( world : ffxii :: ffxiii : character ).

I think it's hard to say which one is "better" plot-wise, but I think there was probably more effort put into FFXII's. I like XIII, I really do, but almost everything about it seemed like a half-effort. FFXII, with all its flaws, I can at least tell has a lot of heart and hard work put into it. XIII's jumbled, last-minute production just really shines through in a lot of ways. As much as I like the characters, it makes it a hard game to root for.

 

[Masamune]

I'm not trying to say that the story is awesome.

I wasn't quoting you.

I was pointing out the folly of saying that you need to research the plot to enjoy it, which disregards the vicarious identification of any credible work of fiction. It's as ridiculous as the Star Wars fans who say you need to read the EU comics/novels etc. to fully appreciate Lucas's clusterfuck of prequels.

Yeah, and in Terminator 2, or FFIV, or most other stories, they DO just happen to stumble on more or less what they were hoping for. In FFXIII, they don't. They don't get anywhere unless Barty puposefully takes them there.

Not really, no. In T2, Sarah first decides to visit a weapons cache to stock up on supplies and then she heads for Dyson, creator of Skynet, believing his death will change the course of the future. You know, a character actually making a proactive choice in the face of adversity, instead of running around haphazardly until something happens. But I'm sure you're going to remind me that this makes FFXIII avant garde... when it's really a bunch of BS writing. Seriously, it astonishes me how much people will defend this crap when the creators themselves plainly didn't give a toss.

AGAIN I AM NOT SAYING IT'S GOOD, I AM SAYING IT'S NOT GUILTY OF WHAT YOU ACCUSING IT OFF. Being a contrivance. Having parents isn't a contrivance or plot, contrary to what you were saying.

Not at all. You're making up a strawman.

Are you REALLY using Hope visiting his pop as a driving force for the game?

If I was 14 year old kid, and I suddenly had 2 weeks to live, I might just decide to risk it.

'Hey, pop, just wanted to tell you I've got an indeterminable time to live - Fal'cie are sketchy on details - oh, and this place will get raided by stormtroopers any second nao. Luvs ya!'

As opposed to what? Just keep letting it turn the civiliation into Focusless l'Cie, teleport dinosaurs into the cities until inevitably no one is left? It's not like it was ever gonna end. If the thing that controls all food, water, gravity, light, communications and transport in your world is hellbent on destroying the world it's gonna happen whether he can selfterminate or not.

The Fal'cie, for all their great power, are still shackled by their very design. That's entirely why they need pawns to do their work for them. The theme of the game is supposedly about people fighting against their fate... when they do exactly what Barthandelus wanted them to do the whole time! It'd be like having Yuna decide to sacrifice herself and keep the cycle of Sin going... only for everything to work out... because!

We know why Barty brought them to Pulse and the Ark.

Having the big bad carting the heroes from A to B is not contrived? Ashe & co in FFXII were being manipulated by Vayne but they were never physically teleported to the next stage like a bunch of puppets. FFXII actually had some degree of subtlety to it.

They leave Cocoon because it' been wellestablished that nobody on Cocoon knows jackshit about l'Cie curses, and it's the only way out of the maze they were in anyway, find out there's nothing left on Pulse, so they return plus Dysley was ready to start a war on Cocoon if they didn't do something.

So we've established that practically fuck-all happens in FFXIII, then? Like I said it's just a bunch of stuff that happens for little rhyme or reason, with a bunch of pretty cut-scenes keeping it together.

I don't know what's so complicated to understand. They went to Pulse for help. Everything on Pulse was dead or dstroyed, so their reason for being there was eliminated. This isn't something that requires tremendous research of the datalog and Ultimania to wrap your head around.

So you've just proved my point. There was no reason for going to Pulse other than to keep the plot train chugging along. Again, in story and gameplay terms everything is a contrived excuse to get from one pretty locale to the other and to hell with how it all ties up.

But XII's characters are just plain out different people in and out of gameplay. People whine and whine and whine and whine about having to need to read the datalog to understand XIII, in XII's Ashe's line about the power of Mateus is the only line in the entire game that presents the party as anything special in combat ability. And it's a very throwaway line at that. Other then, you know, that they are casually stomping one superpowered judge/dragon/otherwise after another when the cutscenes end and they singlehandedly take on the Skyfortress Bahamut and win, they never talk like they are the superpowered magical warriors that they are. Quite the contrary.

Okay, then explain to me who else would have stopped Vayne? If you're going to argue that there was nothing 'stand out' about the FFXII gang, you'll need some proof that someone else could have stopped the Empire. I'd also point to Balthier being one of Ivalice's finest pilots as a key to infiltrating Bahamut in the first place.

Also, if the FFXIII characters were truly special and the only ones capable of writing the wrongs of the Fal'cie, wouldn't that completely negate your argument that if they did nothing then Barthandelus would simply find someone else to do it?

And by no means is FFXIII exempt from what you're talking about, that's for sure. When you consider we have FMVs where the character summon the Eidolons at will to aid them, yet in-game they can only be summoned in battle and cannot be used as a mode of transport out of battle. I'd say that's incongruous, too. But I'm not even using that as a relevant criticism for FFXIII. That's just part and parcel of gameplay/plot segregation. I'm talking about FFXIII's complete fail from a narrative point of view.

XIII doesn't have that problem. Nor am I left wondering why none of the other Returners/SeeD's/Mysidian mages and former partymembers/citizens of the world can't be allowed to help us in the conflict. Nor am I left wondering why it has to happen now, lest the world ends (the world still seems about finished in XIII, but here at least you got these timebombs on you which means you either take a chance to do something now or you won't be around to help at all).

The question here is: DO WHAT? They didn't want to destroy Cocoon. So the whole premise is screwed from the start, because the characters have no clear motivation. And yet some people are actually using this as a plus point?

XIII's plot is hardly perfect, in fact it's not even good, but it takes care of several classic problems FF stories had in the past.

Whilst opening a whole can of new ones at the same time.

I love you Masa, but gonna have to side with Minato on this one
I'll make it up to you

BETRAYAL.

tbh that first half where they are "fumbling around randomly" is probably the most realistic reaction in an ff game?? like you said, they had this shitty destiny thrown on them which they had no motivation to fulfill, so why would they fulfill it? why would they randomly team up together when they had no common goal and no reason to? the first half of the game with all that ~randomness~ leads the characters to get over their own bullshit and we actually get to see why they come together as a group rather than "we're now a merry group just because!!"

First half of the game? We're talking about the entire game, here. No one ever has an idea what's going on. They just roam around, stopping so often to wangst about their problems or make vague team-talks about 'fighting destiny' and how they'll figure something out, even though they do exactly what the big bad wanted but luck out when Fang & Vanille save the day with a big slice of plot convenience.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I'm with Masa here.

My main gripes with FF13 are mostly story/character-centric, with the gameplay coming second. That and I absolutely abhor the color palette, mostly because 13 doesn't seem to know what one is and instead looks like someone threw up colors all over the place with no rhyme or reason.


I thought 13's story was a clusterfuck with plot holes the size of the LHC. Half the game neither you nor the characters know why anyone is doing anything and who the fuck all them damn things with apostrophes are. Fal'Cie, Cieth, what, who? On top of this, it employs the worst possible means to deliver vital information: the Crapalog.

In terms of cast...

A collection of flat, uninspired caricatures I'm supposed to feel for because they have a list of bad things happen to them. Worst offender: Vanille. I say caricatures because everyone seemed to be stuck in one setting throughout. Snow was brash and idiotic, Lightning was angry, Vanille was cray-cray, etc. Not like other FFs have not had characters I dislike and/or annoy me or simply characters I don't care for, but FF13 takes the cake because I feel it has no good characters, only characters who are less sucky. Picking characters is like going to the polls.

The gameplay was frustrating, but I could have probably swallowed it if not for the fact that party leader dies = game over thing. Well, that and the fact I was flying blind half the time.
FFXII's gameplay didn't wow me or anything, and it's not my favorite, but it's much better than 13's (13-2's kind of grew on me though based on demo) because it lets me do what I fucking want and there's a greater degree of customization.

I also think FF12 had better voice acting and also the better music. I'm actually replaying it now

 

[Zealkin]

I also think FF12 had better voice acting and also the better music. I'm actually replaying it now

Same just got past Mt. Bur-omiscace. I can keep replaying 12 with no problem, to me it only gets deeper the more I play it.

Another thing I like about ff's you can replay them and not get bored with most of them.

 

[looneymoon]

A collection of flat, uninspired caricatures I'm supposed to feel for because they have a list of bad things happen to them. Worst offender: Vanille.

 

[Celes Chere]

I agree that a lot of XIII's characters just aren't up to par with the other characters in the other FFs, but Vanille the WORST offender? Hardly. I actually love her, she's adorable and sweet, and she felt actual remorse for the shit that went down/what she was hiding. I really dislike when some people tend to say "OMG THIS CHARACTER IS ANNOYING" then you ask them why and they say something stupid like "their voice is annoying".
It's like really? Bad voice acting and character traits are totally different. Like I love Vanille but I LOATHE her voice.

 

[Roger]

Not really, no. In T2, Sarah first decides to visit a weapons cache to stock up on supplies and then she heads for Dyson, creator of Skynet, believing his death will change the course of the future. You know, a character actually making a proactive choice in the face of adversity, instead of running around haphazardly until something happens. But I'm sure you're going to remind me that this makes FFXIII avant garde... when it's really a bunch of BS writing. Seriously, it astonishes me how much people will defend this crap when the creators themselves plainly didn't give a toss.

The characters don't what to do. That's BS writing. Seriously. They aren't allowed to not have enough information to make good next move? And yeah, i guess am gonna have to make this point again, what's this "until something happens" crap?

They fumble around until they get captured or cornered by the enemy. That's what happens.

Not at all. You're making up a strawman.

How? You said the game is one contrivance after another to get from Point A to Point B. How did Snow staying behind with Serah, Hope going to Palumpolum, Sazh going to Nautilus help them get to the ever plotimportant Point B? Hope going to say goodbye to his father ended in him being able to say goodbye to his father. Snow staying with Serah allowed him to.... stay with Serah. Sazh going to Nautilus tosee the sights before turning himself allowed him to see the sights before turning himself. Beyond that, it matters **** all where and when the Sanctum/Cavalry catches up with them. The actual plot is, far from needing extensive research to wrap your head around, too simple if anything.

Are you REALLY using Hope visiting his pop as a driving force for the game?

I'm saying it's not a contrivance or plot device.

'Hey, pop, just wanted to tell you I've got an indeterminable time to live - Fal'cie are sketchy on details - oh, and this place will get raided by stormtroopers any second nao. Luvs ya!'

Okay 1. Your mother dying isn't something your father would be want to know about? 2. Hope and Lightning didn't know Dajh was being used as a sensor to home in on them no matter how well they covered their tracks 3. He's 14 year old with two weeks to live, what else was there for him?

The Fal'cie, for all their great power, are still shackled by their very design. That's entirely why they need pawns to do their work for them. The theme of the game is supposedly about people fighting against their fate... when they do exactly what Barthandelus wanted them to do the whole time! It'd be like having Yuna decide to sacrifice herself and keep the cycle of Sin going... only for everything to work out... because!

Vanille and Fang sacrificing themselves to become Ragnarok and destroy Cocoon but keep it from plummeting down to Pulse isn't exactly everything working out. Yeah, they utterly wussed out on the casualties (both named character and otherwise), but I don't disagree with the party's decision for not just walking away and still hope to just stumble on a solution like Tidus did so Orphan can have ten more groups of l'Cie roll up to his doorstep by end of the week until one of them says fine.

Having the big bad carting the heroes from A to B is not contrived?

I suppose it is.

So we've established that practically fuck-all happens in FFXIII, then? Like I said it's just a bunch of stuff that happens for little rhyme or reason, with a bunch of pretty cut-scenes keeping it together.

So you've just proved my point. There was no reason for going to Pulse other than to keep the plot train chugging along. Again, in story and gameplay terms everything is a contrived excuse to get from one pretty locale to the other and to hell with how it all ties up.

It means that they were WRONG. The group thought there'd be something on Pulse, or hoped so there'd be because the answers certainly weren't on Cocoon. And thought that with the nasty l'Cie gone, there wouldn't be anymore Purges at least.

Turns out they were wrong, if this is a concept you can understand. They had reasons to go. They didn't pan out. "the plot train chugging" didn't lead them to any goddamn plot, just the opposite. And then Barthandalas came along to tell them Cocoon won't be save even if they stay away. Yeah. Barthandalas' blatant chokehold on the crews plans make the plot pretty simplistic since the game wants to focus on the characters reflections anyway. Or you can whine about not understanding without the datalog.

Okay, then explain to me who else would have stopped Vayne? If you're going to argue that there was nothing 'stand out' about the FFXII gang, you'll need some proof that someone else could have stopped the Empire. I'd also point to Balthier being one of Ivalice's finest pilots as a key to infiltrating Bahamut in the first place.

Also, if the FFXIII characters were truly special and the only ones capable of writing the wrongs of the Fal'cie, wouldn't that completely negate your argument that if they did nothing then Barthandelus would simply find someone else to do it?

Truly special as in, they're the only ones that know of Dysley's true identity and intentions, have superpowers on account of being l'Cie, and are completely isolated from Cocoon society. They didn't chose to be in that situation, but they are and they can't trade places with anyone else.

Ashe willingly makes the choice to stop employing the remaining members of the resistance (which we are shown are still around) in favor of two streetchildren and two skypirates she ran into for no other reason then fulfilling the stereotypical Final Fantasy team. And I'm not questioning why they aren't leaving it to someone else. I'm questioning why they are capable of depopulating the entire Leviathan and Bahamut AT ALL.

And by no means is FFXIII exempt from what you're talking about, that's for sure. When you consider we have FMVs where the character summon the Eidolons at will to aid them, yet in-game they can only be summoned in battle and cannot be used as a mode of transport out of battle. I'd say that's incongruous, too. But I'm not even using that as a relevant criticism for FFXIII. That's just part and parcel of gameplay/plot segregation. I'm talking about FFXIII's complete fail from a narrative point of view.

Yeah, I get seperation of the gameplay and the plot. But Penelo just by her presence is implied to be worth ten Galbadians in combat the plot too just by apparantly being a viable member of the boarding party. Because again, unlike Lightning, Ashe had a whole army/resistance force to call from, instead of going in with just the six of them.

The question here is: DO WHAT? They didn't want to destroy Cocoon. So the whole premise is screwed from the start, because the characters have no clear motivation. And yet some people are actually using this as a plus point?

You talking the final battle or the game. Cause Snow at least makes an effort to try to convey his intentions to the audience.

Whilst opening a whole can of new ones at the same time.

Which I mentioned from the getgo. Hence why I voted FFXII.

 

[Zee]

hrm hrm hrm disliking characters if one thing but ff13's characters pretty much all had their own personal character arcs, you knew their goals, aspirations, fears and shit
they all progress from one state of mind to another by endgame and we see why they get there

i dont

really know

what else to say i mean you can lay a lot of shit at 13 it had a fuckton of flaws but characters were the one thing it actually did pretty well imo you had a good grasp of who they were and where they came from unlike other final fantasies that were pretty half assed in how they dealt with their characters (lol 8??)

 

[Max Payne]

Vanille is annoying but I dislike Serah a lot more.

 

[Lumina]

hrm hrm hrm disliking characters if one thing but ff13's characters pretty much all had their own personal character arcs, you knew their goals, aspirations, fears and shit
they all progress from one state of mind to another by endgame and we see why they get there i dont really know what else to say i mean you can lay a lot of shit at 13 it had a fuckton of flaws but characters were the one thing it actually did pretty well imo you had a good grasp of who they were and where they came from unlike other final fantasies that were pretty half assed in how they dealt with their characters (lol 8??)

This woman is expressing all my feelings right here. First of all I personally think that XIII's VA's were flawless. Each voice went with its character, even Vanille's (I hate to admit it), and described their emotions perfectly.


As for the character's development, I think each own of their arcs was perfect. When Snow (As annoying as he was) talked shit, but most of it were trying to find a way to save Serah. I could feel his desperation of saving the one person he loved most. I could understand and felt highly sinchronized with this character because no matter what happens, I would go to the end of the world if there was a chance to save a loved one. The Light-Serah-Snow arc was really interesting for me too. It was real. We live it everyday. Families are arguing always because "This guy is too dumbshit for my daughter" or shit like that. I felt Lightning's feelings at the thoughts of Snow not being a good guy for her sister.

I could feel Sazh's sadness of trying to cover everything up. Trying to keep up with the group, to fit in. He was trying his hardest to get with everyone, but he never found the way. Then, when he finally trusts someone that someone is the responsible of what happened to his son. I felt his hatred, angry, sadness, and most of all...the deception.

Hope's arc as most as annoying some people find him was heartbraking. A lot of people criticize the fact that he wanted to kill Snow but... from his point of view (From where he was standing) it looked like he let his mom fall over. And please we're talking about a 14 year old. Kids don't understand this kind of stuff. They just believe what they see. Hope was "whining" fine, but he grew up a lot, too much for a 14 year old.

Vanille well.. As Tiff said people mostly hate her because of her voice. Fine, I hate her voice but that feeling of guilty... well is not easy. Its like when I don't pass someone. I mentally criticize them...but once I know them I feel so guilty for thinking about them X way. Is not easy to say "Im Sorry" especially if what you did was pretty much unforgettable. Vanille gained courage along the way and thats something not everyone does.

And I"m sorry about the extensive and horribly wordly paragraph. But I love these chracters so much and I just can't help myself. And I maintain my point that I liked 13 more than 12. And well, I don't plan on going for a discussion because I'm honestly not a debate person .
Again this is my personal opinion. Whether you agree or not, that's up to you.

 

[Kobato]

uhrhh.... um...

In FF12 I hated how big the worlds and towns were, and how I kept on getting lost and had to get a walkthrough just to find a bar in which other FF games you could find in 10 secs. It was extremely frustrating...

but in ff13 I hated how linear and straight forward it was. Just one straight line ? But guess ff10 was a little like that, so found ff13 to be more enjoyable on that scale.

characters, I loved Basche and Larsa from ff12 so much but apart from that, nobody else stood out while ff13 had Hope, Serah, Vanille and Fang.

FF12 had Shiva, Bahamut etc as airships but FF13 had Ifrit and others like silly transformers, but guess FF13 actually stayed true to the actual summoning system and not had the original summoning names as airships, calling the summons Zeromus etc seemed a bit ... strange.

FF13 wins c:

 

[Zealkin]

Yeah, I get seperation of the gameplay and the plot. But Penelo just by her presence is implied to be worth ten Galbadians in combat the plot too just by apparantly being a viable member of the boarding party. Because again, unlike Lightning, Ashe had a whole army/resistance force to call from, instead of going in with just the six of them.

Do you mean Dalmascans? Isn't galbadia in ffviii?

This is the only thing, I'll jump in on. Ashe couldn't ask for the whole resistance's aid because doing that would give rozzaria a reason to incite war with the empire and in turn make dalmasca the next nabudis

They had to do things discreetly, she couldn't even claim her throne at first because it would cause all hell to break lose.

The rag tag team of sorts was qualified BECAUSE they were people who wouldn't cause the whole world to turn every time they went somewhere. Two of them are supposed to be dead, two are always on the run sky pirates and two are orphans who no one should notice.

Discretion is a large part of the game.

 

[Celes Chere]

(lol 8??

God, 8 is definitely the worst with character development but there were a lot of AWESOME characters... they just didn't get the attention they deserved because the game is so fucking obsessed with Squall and Rinoa. Ugh, drives me insane which is why it's actually painful to replay that game. FF8's love story is pretty much like... the Twilight of FF. Poorly written and just puke worthy.

 

[Max Payne]

I really wish people would stop toting character development as if it were the end all be all of a story.

Character exploration is just as valid and interesting. People don't need to go through some massive life changing experience in every goddamn game.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

...btw, even SE knows 13 was one of their worst. Kitase and Toriyama were all like "we took all the negative comments cerealy and we fixed all of them, buy it plz" when trying to attract people to their latest cash-in.

I haven't seen them publicly admit shit like that before.
I seriously hope Versus team is paying attention and being awesome.

 

[Roger]

Do you mean Dalmascans? Isn't galbadia in ffviii?

This is the only thing, I'll jump in on. Ashe couldn't ask for the whole resistance's aid because doing that would give rozzaria a reason to incite war with the empire and in turn make dalmasca the next nabudis

They had to do things discreetly, she couldn't even claim her throne at first because it would cause all hell to break lose.

The rag tag team of sorts was qualified BECAUSE they were people who wouldn't cause the whole world to turn every time they went somewhere. Two of them are supposed to be dead, two are always on the run sky pirates and two are orphans who no one should notice.

Discretion is a large part of the game.

Yeah, I mean Archadians.

And I wasn't talking about Ondore's troops, I was talking about Ashe and Vosslers troops, the ones that she led trying to assassinate Vayne, the ones she has been fighting alongside for the last two years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEiTzAxm2fk&feature=related

These guys.

 

[Dee]

Twelve by a long shot.

Yes FF12 had it's flaws. And it did not go to the lengths I wish it had; however, I still consider it to be a wonderfully thought out game despite these blemishes.

FF13 was an all around disappointment (aside from Lightning). I really can't think of any reason why I would want to play that trash again.

 

[Zealkin]

Yeah, I mean Archadians.

And I wasn't talking about Ondore's troops, I was talking about Ashe and Vosslers troops, the ones that she led trying to assassinate Vayne, the ones she has been fighting alongside for the last two years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEiTz...eature=related

These guys.

I think the Marquis gathers them up too, and Vossler(Basically the cream of the crop of those guys) had been with them for a time before he "betrayed" them.

It's not like any of those fighters specialized in anything, they were just the only ones that had the guts to stand up against the empire after being crushed..repeatedly..

 

[Purple]

XII is actually my favorite FF. More so than VII.

XIII didn't really hold my interest at all. Dropped my campaign before the final boss. However, I'm still planning on playing XIII-2.