Ff7 Racism & Ethnicity: if the effects of unintentional racial nuances or diversity appreciation offends you, dont read this

[Noble0ne]

I don't think the Cetra thing could work since Black people still exist in FFVII. Although they already drew an obvious analogy between American corporate imperialism (Shinra) vs Eastern or Indigenous cultures (Wutai), Corel itself, with its high concentration of Black people and desert terrain, could be a parallel to Africa and how it has been ruthlessly exploited by Europe/America. Also, since Barret is black, people could mistakenly draw the conclusion that he is a Cetra. Thirdly, in Japan, mystical types are usually depicted as Indian-looking, so that may be a better option. Then again, that's kind of a stereotype. As a last point, American race relations are very different from the rest of the world, especially as it pertains to Black people. Every country has its own set of complex relations, many of them more heavily based on culture than race (America is obsessed with skin color by comparison), so I don't think we should dig too deep into race beyond aesthetic representation. Culture is more pertinent here. Shinra imposing on local cultures is obvious.

A black Marlene would be interesting. In the original, we knew that there had to be a story behind Marlene since she didn't look like Barret, provoking curiosity. Making her black would eliminate that curiousity, but it would increase the surprise factor of Barret's backstory for new players.

Edit: Damn, I got ninja'd by so many people.

Yoooo Barret the last cetrs... Mind blow... Dreaming crack now lol

 

[GoldSaucerPoints]

Newbie here and sorry to jump on the post. And I am really worried about posting my views as it's not my intention to offend anyone and I would like to point out that I am not from America nor ever been, so don't know much about the racial tensions there. But always open to learn.

With the Cetrans city was in the north and it obviously was in a very cold climate and with that I assumed that they were white. However in the ancient temple (which is near the Wutai region) and the carving are very reminiscent of Ancient Egyption hieroglyphics.

Much to many arguments the ancient Egyptions were middle eastern or Greek. My point for pointing this out is because even their are subtle cultural influences from our world into the FF7 world.

But we don't see many cultural differences over than Wutai and the Cetra.


When I played FF7 I never thought of the main cast as 'white' the only characters I thought as white were Cid, Palmer and President Shinra. (Whom seemed to take the stereotypical of evil money mad evil dictator.)

I think the Cetra being of all different skin colours make sense as they did continue to wonder the planet, so would make sense. But with that some clearly settled as they had the Forgotten City.

And Jenona did take their form which she/he? Was incase in and it did take a blue ish skin tone. Was that colour of the Cetrans then? As it did trick them into believing it was one of them. (Sorry no idea if this was ever explained?)

With it being a Japanese game I do find it a bit worrying when I see people complaining about not enough representation (not saying the OP did this at all) I see it a lot with anime. I just wonder how much the western audience seems to demand Japanese creators for including things that they solely created.

Again I think would be amazing for more towns in FF7 world to have other skin tones etc.

And having Marlene black would have been more of a shock when we learn that Barret isn't her biological father.

Sorry the long post and truly hope I haven't offended anyone, as it truly wasn't my intention.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If Marlene were black I think it would lead to endless fan speculation about her 'real' parentage. We already have half the fandom thinking Vincent is Sephiroth's father.

 

[ForceStealer]

As a naive 10 year old I just accepted Marlene as Barret's daughter without thinking anything of it. It was kind of a surprise to me to learn of her adoption

 

[GoldSaucerPoints]

As a naive 10 year old I just accepted Marlene as Barret's daughter without thinking about it. It was kind of a surprise to me to learn of her adoption

Same here when I played on it as a kid.

 

[GoldSaucerPoints]

If Marlene were black I think it would lead to endless fan speculation about her 'real' parentage. We already have half the fandom thinking Vincent is Sephiroth's father.

True, I was just talking about more representation. And I do hate that people still use the whole "Vincent os better looking than Hojo so he must be Sephiroth's father!"

Sephiroth got the looks from his two "mothers" and the insane personality from all three of his "parents."

 

[Clement Rage]

I don't think it's a good idea to give races inherent traits.

 

[GoldSaucerPoints]

I did not? And FFVII writers only seem to do it with the Cetra as they can commune with the planet plus other traits. The humans could do this but lost that ability.

 

[Glaurung]

As an old player, I've never cared about representation or races, especially in JRPGs (also, I'm Spanish. Good luck finding someone like me in a fantasy setting which hasn't been subjected to a weird culture mish-mash with Italy or Mexico. And, depending on whom you ask, I'm either a white supremacist which should go extinct, or a mixed-blodded mongrel, not even fit to serve as a slave race *shrug*). Japanese developers put their own people as protagonists because that's "representation" for them. Their target audience has always been japanese people, while the Western has been an accessory market, hence if they sold outside, good, if not, they still had their own market. It still is like that, in a sense.

I would like modern North American citizens (and by extension, the rest of Western youth) to stop judging the whole world through the modern socio-political lens of North America. Each country has their own historical burden and traditions, and they all create their media according to that.

As an example: in Full Metal Alchemist we had the country of Ishval, which everyone in the Western drew parallels with Muslims, due to the oppresion and racism they faced, and because they came from the desert and had darker skin. The real story? The author intended to draw a parallel with the Emishi, an ancient tribe from Japan who were chased down and were, eventually, forced into extinction.

I understand perfectly why people want representation, it makes you feel good watching familiar facial features in a fictional setting but, while the points you raised are very interesting, it would sadden me to no end that there were individuals out there who wanted to throw this game (or any game, for that matter) under the bus because it doesn't comply with their appreciation of which percentage of the real world races should be in a fictional setting.

I just ask, please, don't let this debate get out of hand. Not in this franchise.

 

[Noble0ne]

I wonder how Barret's story arch in an expanded Midgar will go...

If there is no race at all on Gaia, and the skin color therefore doesn't matter... Any comments on my idea of giving a GIRL' dark shade protagonist or antagonist...

Gaia not having race and seen in the eyes of Japanese writers is cool and all. Fair assessment. But I personally still like my fantasizing to include race, I like thinking about they way fans from different cultures will relate to a stories cast.

late so didn't read new post yet,, this why I ain't comment on em, apologies

 

[Noble0ne]

Aright Mama Dragon... I see you with your Nicely well written post.

Representation for them... I felt that. Thanks for the outlook.

I do believe that square soft maid direct statements saying they intended the original game to appeal to western audiences for mass appeal to critique.


Spanish huh, Rude always struck my as Spanish. (Self imposed of course)... And other tan Npc's in game.

Side note. I like Rude and his funny mechanic to never hit his crush tifa.

I'm surprised the disscution went this well here even. Normally you dont get that.

 

[Glaurung]

Aright Mama Dragon... I see you with your Nicely well written post.
Representation for them... I felt that. Thanks for the outlook.
I do believe that square soft maid direct statements saying they intended the original game to appeal to western audiences for mass appeal to critique.
Spanish huh, Rude always struck my as Spanish. (Self imposed of course)... And other tan Npc's in game.
Side note. I like Rude and his funny mechanic to never hit his crush tifa.
I'm surprised the disscution went this well here even. Normally you dont get that.

I remember there was mentioned somewhere that Rude was modeled for ACC after Caribbean types. Spanish's facial features are Mediterranean, which encompases all the countries whith some form of a Roman past: Italians, Argelians, Moroccans, Tunisians, Turkish, Greeks, South France, Romanians, Portugese... If you want a FF character who looks Spanish, or as closely as you can get, you'll have to pick Nyx Ulric or Crowe Altius (I swear I thought they had picked a Spanish actress for her likeness. She's Romanian, btw).

This forum has come a long way. We have learned to be polite without causing too much drama




About the topic:

What I always understood from Gaia is that race, as in, your skin color and genetic inheritance, weren't as important as the place you were born and raised in. Also, Gaia had been brought together under the Shinra boot, save for Wutai which was treated as a rebel nation, so anything resembling any differentiation based on skin color would be restricted to that, and only that. What I expect from the developers is that they use the creative tools they have to model a wider range of NPCs. That would be cool to see, tbh.

 

[Noble0ne]

Just to play devils advocate...

if you had a different random 90's game with large world map reliance, with a entire fantasy world community that was all black people. and only 3 or 4 white Npcs. By the standards of many assessments given here then there's nothing odd at all about that if the producers where African...

My point being that that's fair, but still not that globally inclusive... And that's okay ?

I'm stop playing devils advocate in later comments... I Dont want to come of as trolling.

 

[GoldSaucerPoints]

As an old player, I've never cared about representation or races, especially in JRPGs (also, I'm Spanish. Good luck finding someone like me in a fantasy setting which hasn't been subjected to a weird culture mish-mash with Italy or Mexico. And, depending on whom you ask, I'm either a white supremacist which should go extinct, or a mixed-blodded mongrel, not even fit to serve as a slave race *shrug*). Japanese developers put their own people as protagonists because that's "representation" for them. Their target audience has always been japanese people, while the Western has been an accessory market, hence if they sold outside, good, if not, they still had their own market. It still is like that, in a sense.

I would like modern North American citizens (and by extension, the rest of Western youth) to stop judging the whole world through the modern socio-political lens of North America. Each country has their own historical burden and traditions, and they all create their media according to that.

As an example: in Full Metal Alchemist we had the country of Ishval, which everyone in the Western drew parallels with Muslims, due to the oppresion and racism they faced, and because they came from the desert and had darker skin. The real story? The author intended to draw a parallel with the Emishi, an ancient tribe from Japan who were chased down and were, eventually, forced into extinction.

I understand perfectly why people want representation, it makes you feel good watching familiar facial features in a fictional setting but, while the points you raised are very interesting, it would sadden me to no end that there were individuals out there who wanted to throw this game (or any game, for that matter) under the bus because it doesn't comply with their appreciation of which percentage of the real world races should be in a fictional setting.

I just ask, please, don't let this debate get out of hand. Not in this franchise.

Could not agree more. North America seems to be screaming for more diversity etc. I hate the pandering to the masses. I don't even think it is the masses just a few noisy people.


As a woman it doesn't bother me in the slightest if the main cast are male

Just to play devils advocate...

if you had a different random 90's game with large world map reliance, with a entire fantasy world community that was all black people. and only 3 or 4 white Npcs. By the standards of many assessments given here then there's nothing odd at all about that if the producers where African...

My point being that that's fair, but still not that globally inclusive... And that's okay ?

I'm stop playing devils advocate in later comments... I Dont want to come of as trolling.

If it was a African produced game I would not expect anything less nor would I be offended. Just like when I watch Chinese, Indian etc films I don't expect to see white people.

Cool graphics or nice looking characters are a plus but I'm not in it for that. I'm in it for good story telling. Which is why I love the FF franchise as a whole.

Besides with the whole new rendered look barely any off them look white. They look majority more Japanese to me.

 

[Noble0ne]

I'd like to think Pandering can at times be positive if handled with care. Good game politics.

People that like diversity. Aren't always crying for it. Noisy is one way to describe them... Honestly outspoke could be another way. It's not by force. A great deal of them may not be bothered at all, and may just like giving the developers that they are fans of suggestions to consider. Different approach for different folks.

 

[Noble0ne]

yeah I get that there are a lot of people out demanding for stuff they really shouldnt. SJW ranting just push agendas is a thing... I don't think that's what is going in here at. Without dialogue, many off the most fair minded people can miss things that they didn't consider. Life and ideas to consider are vast. The nuace complexities cultures often gets muddled when over considered, but sometimes is masterfully accounted for.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Noble0ne]

Sometimes pandering makes sense like "Fan Service" is a form of pandering.

Other kinds like when a character is changed to appeal to a new demographic for whatever agenda I Don't mind if the original creators are really into the idea. Not just potitioned to hell and want to meet disingenuous imposed quotas

 

[GoldSaucerPoints]

Sometimes pandering makes sense like "Fan Service" is a form of pandering.

Other kinds like when a character is changed to appeal to a new demographic for whatever agenda I Don't mind if the original creators are really into the idea. Not just potitioned to hell and want to meet disingenuous imposed quotas

Of course and creators often do pander to the fandom. And my wording wasn't great. I mean with the whole SJW that take it to far. Discussion and debate is the best thing.

I just feel like when a movie flops for example and then people start throwing words such as it failed because of "sexism."

It stifles creativity and writers/developers. If something is a genuine problem it should be called out for what it is.

With FF7 I get why people would be upset due to not representation but there is a bountiful of people that aren't represented in the game and thats not just down to colour of the skin games characters.

I dunno, I think I'm mumbling on but when I played ff7 for the first time and even on my like fifth hundredth time I was aware that there is a lack of representation in many things but it didn't take it a way for me because it's a fictional world. If it was based on Earth then I might have had a problem.

 

[Clement Rage]

f you had a different random 90's game with large world map reliance, with a entire fantasy world community that was all black people. and only 3 or 4 white Npcs. By the standards of many assessments given here then there's nothing odd at all about that if the producers where African...

Well, I'd buy it. That sounds interesting.

I did not? And FFVII writers only seem to do it with the Cetra as they can commune with the planet plus other traits. The humans could do this but lost that ability.

I was thinking the idea of the Cetra being made to look like a particular earth race being potentially problematic, if one race is supposed to be more 'enlightened' in the ways of the planet than others.

 

[Noble0ne]

Of course and creators often do pander to the fandom. And my wording wasn't great. I mean with the whole SJW that takes it too far. Discussion and debate is the best thing.

I just feel like when a movie flops for example and then people start throwing words such as it failed because of "sexism."

It stifles creativity and writers/developers. If something is a genuine problem it should be called out for what it is.

With FF7 I get why people would be upset due to not representation but there is a bountiful of people that aren't represented in the game and that's not just down to the color of the skin games characters.

I dunno, I think I'm mumbling on but when I played ff7 for the first time and even on my like fifth hundredth time I was aware that there is a lack of representation in many things but it didn't take it away for me because it's a fictional world. If it was based on Earth then I might have had a problem.

Interesting point.

If I was a big title writer, I sure could see having stifling fear even beforehand from by the waves of public dismay. The public is one tuff audience to please, they are with you the whole way and then one oversized 'Carbuncle head' makes them bring out the torches in protest and refuse to buy pre-orders! Lol (I kidd)

But yes, as one my favorite games and with many playthroughs myself if agree.

The lack of black people in the original didn't stop it from being considered one of the greatest games of all time.

 

[Noble0ne]

Oooo that could be problematic.... Maybe best for them to look like those bearded dawfs with wizard hats in the temple of ancients

 

[LNK]

If Marlene were black I think it would lead to endless fan speculation about her 'real' parentage. We already have half the fandom thinking Vincent is Sephiroth's father.

people really think that? lol

 

[Noble0ne]

people really think that? lol

I didnt see it ubtil this quote... sounds legit

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

There are some people who think it. Others know it isn't canon but choose to believe it anyway because it works for them.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It was extremely visible up until around the time "Dirge of Cerberus" was released. At that point, we had the FFVII Ultimania Omega explicitly identifying Hojo as Sephiroth's father, and a whole game starring Vincent that didn't try to overwrite that paternity.

Even the most ardent adherents to the Vincent alternative had to acknowledge that a game starring the dude would have been the ideal time to make that reveal and establish the legit canon if that was what the developers intended -- so it pretty much died out after that.