Ff7 Racism & Ethnicity: if the effects of unintentional racial nuances or diversity appreciation offends you, dont read this

[Pizzachu]

Glaurung:

The statements might not have been the intention, but that is what they can come across as. Especially if the product (in this case, Final Fantasy VII Remake) has been released for sale in the United States. Companies are aware of that which is why they hire localization teams to target things for a specific audience. Therefore, people are commenting on it from a U.S. perspective; Final Fantasy VII was released in the United States as a product.
Statements don’t necessarily have to be political. They can be, but not always. I agree with your viewpoint of the devs using the Far West aesthetic because of the exoticness of it. BUT, at the same time, that is a statement. The Far West aesthetic is exotic.

Nobody, from what I’ve seen is demanding anything. It is only a wish or a request. I haven’t seen anyone making ultimatums about race in Final Fantasy VII.


Also, Lic, I wanted to address certain points in your post, so I'm going to be quoting you in here. I hope this doesn't come across as nitpicking:

"Race is a social construct. If your society hasn't constructed it, it doesn't exist. You're applying American codes to a fantasy society designed by Japanese people. You're also implying that only people who are thoroughly familiar with those codes can fully understand and appreciate FFVII; that people who aren't familiar with First Nations culture can never really "get" the character of Red XIII."

I am not sure where you are getting this from. Yes, race is a social construct, I am not going to debate that. What I am saying is that if a product is released into the United States market, it will be judged from a United States perspective. This is the same as any product released into any country.

"Final Fantasy games can't have Muslim girls or Christian nuns or Buddhist monks in them because they're not set in our world. If SE created a culture within one of their worlds where the women went veiled, we couldn't start claiming that this was Muslim representation. You can't have Muslims in a world where there is no Islam. Even though sector 5 has a church that's heavily coded Christian, I think we all know it's not meant to be a Christian church or Christian representation, becaus you can't have a Christian church in a world where there is no Christianity. It's merely a generic place of worship."

If people view a character as Muslim coded, then who am I to argue against it? Fantasy pulls from reality. Certain characteristics can be pulled from Muslim culture, even if the character themselves is not stated as Muslim.

"What these games have, or should have, is representation of the full diversity of human beings, so that we can all, as individuals, see ourselves protrayed there. If you identify as a woman and that's important to you, then it's great to see that women play so many important roles in FF games. If you have darker skin and that's important to you, then it's important to see people who look like you playing key roles.
Personally, I was pleased to see some fat NPCs, particularly the girl down in Wall Market who was on a hot date.

That said, if fan artists want to imagine a Muslim Aerith, they have every right to do so."

I agree with everything you had written here. Diversity of human beings is a good thing, and I’m glad that there are characters out there that people of all types can identify with and enjoy.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't see how you can code someone as being of a certain religion in a world where that religion doesn't exist.

Do people "read" Aerith as a Christian because she hangs out in a church, dresses modestly, prays like a Christian, and ultimately saves the world? I don't think so. She is not designed to be Christian nor is she meant to represent Christians. She can't be a Christian, because there's no Christianity in their world. And if Christians identified with Aerith because she's "coded Christian" and "like them", that would be kind of wierd.

I can, however, see people being coded as Iranian, Arab, Sudanese, Turkish etc...

 

[Cat on Mars]

I was about to thank this post, but when I got to this part I admittedly went kinda "what the fuck" at this part I... don't find anything cringe or whatever about this at all, anymore than stuff like making a character have same-sex attraction for shipping purposes. Isn't interacting with fictional works on one's own terms a lot of the point of engaging with a fandom? I don't see how this was necessary when it seemed like you were talking about American cultural imperialism at first, it detracts from your overall point imo.

It is because an American did that, a white girl iirc. That's the cringey part, the "look how woke I am" display in order to gain SJW street cred.
Also, it looks like a fucking racist caricature (but tbh most tumblr art looks like racist caricatures so...), and niqab is a Muslim garment women wear to follow local religious norms, not a fashion statement. It's a joke at diversity's expense.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The fact you meet Aerith in a church is the most obvious and clear example of fantasy pulling from reality in FFVII. That church didn't spawn from the ether. It was put in the story as a thematic symbolism meant to represent something, despite the fact no Christian depiction of worship and the afterlife is shown in FFVII whatsoever.

Christianity does not exist in FFVII yet a church modeled after a traditionally Protestant church somehow magically made it's way in the story.

Humans write stories, and because of that, human cultural models, images, and patterns find themselves in fantasy works. No, Aerith isn't literally a Christian, and the church in-narrative cannot be a Christian church, but there are clear symbolic elements illustrated from those religious and cultural aspects.

It is because an American did that, a white girl iirc. That's the cringey part, the "look how woke I am" display in order to gain SJW street cred.
Also, it looks like a fucking racist caricature (but tbh most tumblr art looks like racist caricatures so...), and niqab is a Muslim garment women wear to follow local religious norms, not a fashion statement. It's a joke at diversity's expense.

How do you know that's the reason they drew it? And the way the art looks, seems more like a reflection of their talent; as if they were a beginner artist and still learning the fundamentals of drawing. It certainly doesn't appear to be a purposeful racial caricature or insulting portrayal meant to provocatively instigate outrage.

 

[Pizzachu]

I don't see how you can code someone as being of a certain religion in a world where that religion doesn't exist.

Do people "read" Aerith as a Christian because she hangs out in a church, dresses modestly, prays like a Christian, and ultimately saves the world? I don't think so. She is not designed to be Christian nor is she meant to represent Christians. She can't be a Christian, because there's no Christianity in their world. And if Christians identified with Aerith because she's "coded Christian" and "like them", that would be kind of wierd.

I can, however, see people being coded as Iranian, Arab, Sudanese, Turkish etc...

Oh, I see what you mean. Sorry, when I say "code" I mean "read".

 

[Cat on Mars]

Christianity does not exist in FFVII yet a church modeled after a traditionally Protestant church somehow magically made it's way in the story.

Yes, it's something called "exotism". Traditionally Protestant churches aren't exactly common in Japan, you know?

ETA:

How do you know that's the reason they drew it? And the way the art looks, seems more like a reflection of their talent; as if they were a beginner artist and still learning the fundamentals of drawing. It certainly doesn't appear to be a purposeful racial caricature or insulting portrayal meant to provocatively instigate outrage.

Because I know tumblr, I'm an artist and I know really well what they do and why. It's not like they are secretive about their motives.
And I'm not discussing art with you since you already know everything about my area of expertise and there's nothing you'd need to learn. Not from me, anyway.

Also, this thread for non-Americans in a nutshell:

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The fact you meet Aerith in a church is the most obvious and clear example of fantasy pulling from reality in FFVII. That church didn't spawn from the ether. It was put in the story as a thematic symbolism meant to represent something, despite the fact no Christian depiction of worship and the afterlife is shown in FFVII whatsoever.

Christianity does not exist in FFVII yet a church modeled after a traditionally Protestant church somehow magically made it's way in the story.

Humans write stories, and because of that, human cultural models, images, and patterns find themselves in fantasy works. No, Aerith isn't literally a Christian, and the church in-narrative cannot be a Christian church, but there are clear symbolic elements illustrated from those religious and cultural aspects.

Well, yes, obviously, it's a generic place of worship representing the spiritual elements of life and standing in contrast to the capitalisttic, exploitative materialism that defines the rest of Midgar. if it wasn't modelled after a recognisable religious building, we wouldn't understand what it stood for.

My point is that despite her heavy Christian coding, it would be a mistake to interpret Aerith as representative of Christians.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The church is an excellent example of FF7 not being made with a Western mindset in mind. And even how that can be a handicap for character interpretation.

When you get down to it, the Cetra beliefs are much more closely related to Eastern ideas about reincarnation and the cycle of life. Everything goes around in a circle and anything can be reborn as anything else. Death isn't the end, not because there is an afterlife, but because the spirit energy that makes you... you... will be broken down and used to give life to something else.

That said... I think the church is a huge reason to why Aerith is characterized as a "Pink Jesus" by the Western Audience... but not the Asian Audience as much. Aerith fits the Western concept as a martyr dying to save the world from itself too well... and the place she is found and is associated with has the trapping of a religion that features that concept heavily. If you had to code Aerith "correctly" for a Western Audience, she'd be coded as an Eastern shrine maiden or something. That would get over the cultural blind spot there better I think.

However, sticking with one culture's aesthetics is boring. So long as the "in-universe" culture is gone into, you can pretty much use any earth-based culture's aesthetic you want. You see this all the time with... just about any anime that uses the cultural aesthetic of the European Catholic Church and yet the actual beliefs of that Church in-universe have almost nothing to do with the real one. The cultural trappings though? They very much do.

Other examples from FF games that do this would be FFXIII when it mixes Indian and African aethetics for the culture Fang and Vanille are from. The Xaela in FFXIV are essentially PG-13 Mongols. And then there's all the early FF games that have the medieval aesthetic...

 

[Eerie]

Even though FFVII was marketed for the American audience, I think we have to remember that rather having to be seen through a Western (and especially) American lens, we should understand that the game was made by Japanese developpers and their own ideas about "America". They took things that were cool in their eyes to mix it in the game, but I highly doubt it went further than that, especially in 1997. Even if the Remake includes more POC to be more inclusive - which is great - we are still talking about people who have their own biased ideas about the West, and whose racism in their own country is very different (in the sens that it's grounded differently than in the US, as it is for other countries).

I know a lot of people look at older works through the current lenses, but I don't think it's the best way to approach a book/movie - it's much more interesting to understand the context and put back the narrative into that context to understand that society better, IMHO. It's the very same here, you can't really look at it and think through an American lens, even if the game is marketed towards American, because the perspective is just... vastly different. Even with a team who's there to explain to the devs the what should be and what can't be done with today's lenses.

 

[Pizzachu]

This is where I think we are at an impasse. I understand the argument that the game is made by Japanese developers and that the devs have their own POV about things. At the same time, things are going to be viewed differently based on the individual. People can interpret things differently no matter what.

If someone wants to discuss race and culture through their own viewpoint, then I want them to be able to discuss it with others without being seemingly dismissed. That is why I picked up this debate because I didn’t like the argument of “It’s a Japanese game, so don’t look at it from a U.S. perspective.” I felt that it prevented discussion from taking place.

Seeing that this debate is winding down, I wanted to say that I hope there are no hard feelings from this. I realize that this can be a sensitive topic, and I appreciate the members of TLS for handling this in an appropriate way. Who knows what dumpster fire this thread would turn into if it was posted anywhere else.

 

[Clement Rage]

Re Aerith drawing I should say I could understand someone looking at something that's supposed to be worn for specific religious reasons and being upset that the garment is there without the meaning, but personally it looks good. I could see it being distracting, though.

Red XIII is coded as indigenous American? I had no idea, how did they do that?

FF7 is also released in places other than the USA, though, which often have to make do with the US localisation, which takes in US cultural sensibilities and not theirs. The end result of that sometimes means that localisations happen at the expense of cultures other than the US perspective, which is one reason why people raise eyebrows when a fictional world is looked at as though its issues are the same as the US, especially when it's a localisation written by people not native to the States.

Over coding can damage stories sometimes (not always). For instance, Yuffie is often taken as a rebellious princess escaping her choking society because people code too heavily from their perception of 'asian culture', so what you end up with is this:

Fanon Yuffie: I am rebelling against my nation's strict culture which doesn't allow women to do anything except sit still and be pretty. Screw these traditional ways that hold us back!

Canon Yuffie: I am working hard to support my town so we can go back to our traditional ways taken from us by the Shinra. My father fully supports my ambitions in secret, and I am not only encouraged but obligated to defeat him in single combat when I come of age.

That's what happens when people code too heavily. The coding is important, but so is what happens in the story you're reading/watching.

 

[Cat on Mars]

I'm sure most of that "pink Jesus" rep Aerith has in the West is due to her introduction: weave basket with flowers, hands joined under her chin, long dress and braided hair, tending flower beds in an old church. Church girl? That couldn't be farther from the truth, and it's funny.

However, sticking with one culture's aesthetics is boring. So long as the "in-universe" culture is gone into, you can pretty much use any earth-based culture's aesthetic you want. You see this all the time with... just about any anime that uses the cultural aesthetic of the European Catholic Church and yet the actual beliefs of that Church in-universe have almost nothing to do with the real one. The cultural trappings though? They very much do.

I'm from a country still culturally Catholic, went to a Catholic school with nuns and everything and I know some priests -I know I'm in for a great time when anime decides it's time to put some nuns and priests in the plot for shits and giggles. Hellsing Ultimate was a riot!

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't know that discussion has been prevented, Pizzachu. It seems to me we've had quite a lively and productive discussion. Also, CatonMars, thanks for sharing that hilarious video. I'd forgotten about Team America!

 

[looneymoon]

I think it's worth noting that certain stories gain a certain life outside of their countries of origin as well. Japan seems to have happily adopted Anne of Green Gables as their own, sort of. How many of my fellow Canadians actually give a shit about Anne of Green Gables? Is it just a Prairies thing? Be honest now

 

[Pizzachu]

Yeah, I agree, Lic. This was a good discussion that was productive. I feel a little bit bad about me derailing Noble's thread into it. ^^U

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I love Anne of Green Gables and I cannot lie. I still re-read them on a regular basis.
I've never liked any of the TV adaptations though.

 

[Cat on Mars]

It's the weirdest thing how some countries adopt media and add it to their popular culture, like Japan and Anne of Green Garbles or Finland and Donald Duck. There is a Moe's bar in my city (localized, so it's called "Taberna de Moe") because people still love The Simpsons and if you put in the same room 20 random Spaniards aged 30-40 they could write all the scripts for the first 8-10 seasons from memory alone.
There is no logic behind any of this and I love it, it's oddly comforting to know this happen everywhere.

If this doesn't prove storytelling is a powerful tool and how stories can travel across time and countries disregarding things like representation or culture, I don't know what it does.

 

[Ite]

I love Anne of Green Gables and I cannot lie. I still re-read them on a regular basis.
I've never liked any of the TV adaptations though.

Lucky for you, there's a national mandate to make a new one every four years, so eventually we'll make a homerun

.....yes I understand this is my first contribution to this discussion, and as such is definitely not a contribution. I don't have anything insightful to add, though, I feel it's more important for me to listen. Lots of good points being raised by everyone. As a white storyteller, it's daunting. The line between conscientious representation and presumptiveness/appropriation/white-knighting is sometimes drawn between a rock and a hard place. Better to spend my energy lifting up non-white-coded storytellers.

 

[Clement Rage]

The 'pink jesus' thing has literally never occurred to me until now. But I actively try to avoid themes and allegories.

Anyone you recommend, Ite?

I sometimes feel that if the energies used to call out unrepresentative works could be harnessed to actually promote works people feel are representative (or write them) then we'd be a long way towards having a more diverse field.

 

[Pizzachu]

I understand what you mean, but people can do both if they want. Discussing about unrepresentative works doesn't mean that people are not working on things that do have representation. ^^

 

[Glaurung]

Glaurung:

The statements might not have been the intention, but that is what they can come across as. Especially if the product (in this case, Final Fantasy VII Remake) has been released for sale in the United States. Companies are aware of that which is why they hire localization teams to target things for a specific audience. Therefore, people are commenting on it from a U.S. perspective; Final Fantasy VII was released in the United States as a product.
Statements don’t necessarily have to be political. They can be, but not always. I agree with your viewpoint of the devs using the Far West aesthetic because of the exoticness of it. BUT, at the same time, that is a statement. The Far West aesthetic is exotic.

Nobody, from what I’ve seen is demanding anything. It is only a wish or a request. I haven’t seen anyone making ultimatums about race in Final Fantasy VII.

No, not here, sorry for conveying that people here made demands. But you have to admit that, each time a new non-american piece of media comes out there's always that hubbub from the USA part of the internet because it never fulfills the representation quota, or it never "represents [insert ethnicity or sexual orientation] correctly". It has never happened in this forum because things have been kept civil and reasonable, so we can have civilized discussions and learn from each other, but you have to admit that the rest of the internet is so deafening sometimes in the matter of race that, each time the discussion is brought up, even if making such a simple thing as wishing for whatever, we non-americans feel like groaning and pulling up the "no one fucking asked, bitch" meme. Sorry 'bout that.

My point with saying that japanes devs treat the Far West as an exotic aesthetic is that no one really cares about USA's domestic problems. Well, except for those nincompoops who have adopted the "white guilt" mantra in places where such thing has no point whatsoever because... they are not "white" to beguin with, but people have always needed some sort of voulntary martyrdoom, I guess. Let's remember that they were sects of people who wilingly removed their genitalia and lived a life of suffering, just to atone for sins they never commited. But I digress. Whatever happens in the USA, the rest of the world watches and shrugs, except for those who want internet clout, or those who make deals with USA clients and are worried about international big comerce. We don't care. We look at your country and we only see americans, no matter the skin color. Sadly, as a society, too self-centered and ignorant about what happens outside your borders and, still, wondering why media from outside looks so alien to you.

The fact you meet Aerith in a church is the most obvious and clear example of fantasy pulling from reality in FFVII. That church didn't spawn from the ether. It was put in the story as a thematic symbolism meant to represent something, despite the fact no Christian depiction of worship and the afterlife is shown in FFVII whatsoever.

Christianity does not exist in FFVII yet a church modeled after a traditionally Protestant church somehow magically made it's way in the story.

Humans write stories, and because of that, human cultural models, images, and patterns find themselves in fantasy works. No, Aerith isn't literally a Christian, and the church in-narrative cannot be a Christian church, but there are clear symbolic elements illustrated from those religious and cultural aspects.

Christian-inspired temples have been the bread and butter of JRPGs since forever. And it's not a statement, but people nowadays are reading far too deep into things!

 

[Cat on Mars]

martyrdoom

That would be rad name for a Doom metal band.

Christian-inspired temples have been the bread and butter of JRPGs since forever. And it's not a statement, but people nowadays are reading far too deep into things!

Well, "fantasy is always some kind of fauxEuropean medieval land" is a trope for a reason, right?
And about reading too deep into things, even if I agree with you... you've been here longer than me, don't act all surprised like this was a new development.

 

[Clement Rage]

I understand what you mean, but people can do both if they want. Discussing about unrepresentative works doesn't mean that people are not working on things that do have representation. ^^

Of course, but it seems you're much more likely to hear about 'look at the gaffe this author made' than 'look how good this author is at representing minorities.

I honestly think JK Rowling is very good at being representative in her work relative to most of her peers, but you're much more likely to hear people complaining about her failings in representation.

Churches and cathedrals are inherently dramatic places. I don't think it goes much deeper than that. They have towers people can dramatically fall off, stained glass windows that can be dramatically crashed through, gargoyles that can dramatically break off at convenient moments, bells that can be rung to disorient daredevil or that sound sensitive vampire, candles to set things on fire, and barrels perched precariously on rafters that can be dropped on people below.

They're also wide open spaces that are useful for bossfights.

Well, "fantasy is always some kind of fauxEuropean medieval land" is a trope for a reason, right?

Tangent: Y'know, this also bothers me a bit. Because people complain about it a lot, but, like, there's no god of writing forcing you to write that if you don't want to. Publishing houses gatekeep, yes, but hey, I've been self publishing fanfic on the internet for fifteen years.

A lot of works are so proud of subverting the formula by actively defying the tropes as though they're somehow bad in themselves. For me that's like following someone else's blueprints to a tee and then complaining about how bad the plans are.

Why didn't you just do something else, then?

Oh, right. Actually building something new from the ground up is hard.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm not particularly interested in Harry Potter, but I gather JK Rowling's ex-fans hate her for many reasons, among them being the goblin bankers, because they're racist, because they're intended to be...???? Jewish people I think? I'm not sure. I always thought she was having a dig at Swiss people there: "the gnomes of Zurich" as the Swiss bankers are called.

 

[Makoeyes987]

J.K. Rowling has lost her fucking mind. Between hook nosed Jew goblins, wizards shitting themselves, hating on trans people, and randomly assigning gayness to characters post-story as if it fucking matters or showcases her amazing courage in writing queer characters (even though she didn't), she's licking the floors of Azkaban now. She might as well suck off a Dementor and take it's kiss.