SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[oty]

That's kind of like my line of thinking too. I mean, two Sephiroths having knowledge from the future seems a bit redundant. Unless there is going to be some power play between the two Sephs? Which is simply.....well it doesnt sound great. Sephiroth is clearly the big, big bad. Having two of them sort of fighting against themselves is...not really the easiest route to showcase that, y'know?

And it really seems that Northern Crater Seph has knowledge from the future, and even knows about the Whispers, and it is also breakin apart from the intended course of events.

 

[Weeros]

I don’t know if in terms of consciousness/will we’re supposed to assume that the Chapter 18 Sephiroth is distinct from the Sephiroth in Northern Crater controlling all the other Sephiroth copies and illusions Cloud has. It is supposed to be a completely new manifestation of Sephiroth but I don’t think that’s the same as equaling the consciouses being different.

As said earlier, I personally don’t think so. I think it’s just some new form of appariton for him, like ”memory” and ”illusion” are supposed to be different forms.

I’m thinking (hoping) they would rather make a convoluted new form of the ”one whole Sephiroth” than have a convoluted ”two separate main antagonists” situation that would basically eat away each other’s spotlight in the narrative, if you get my meaning..

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Perhaps hito @Strangelove can shed some light I'm overlooking, but I really do think it's meant to be a different Sephiroth altogether. The Japanese dialogue when Seph confronts the team at the end of the highway gives a slightly more nuanced implication than the English localization does there:

----
Barret: てめえ！さっきは

::Aerith turns her head towards Barret and puts out her hand to stop him; she pauses and turns back to look at Sephiroth::

Aerith: ちがう

::she stares hard at Sephiroth::

Aerith: あなたは まちがっている
---
Barret: "Fucker! You again --"

::Aerith turns her head towards Barret and puts out her hand to stop him; she pauses and turns back to look at Sephiroth::

Aerith: "It isn't."

::she stares hard at Sephiroth::

Aerith: "You ... feel wrong."
----

That's how I interpret it anyway.

 

[Theozilla]

As said earlier, I personally don’t think so. I think it’s just some new form of appariton for him, like ”memory” and ”illusion” are supposed to be different forms.

I’m thinking (hoping) they would rather make a convoluted new form of the ”one whole Sephiroth” than have a convoluted ”two separate main antagonists” situation that would basically eat away each other’s spotlight in the narrative, if you get my meaning..

Uh, that’s what I am arguing too, I think it’s a new form too, as the Ultimania says, but not a separate entity from the will/consciousness of the Northern Crater Sephiroth.

Perhaps hito @Strangelove can shed some light I'm overlooking, but I really do think it's meant to be a different Sephiroth altogether. The Japanese dialogue when Seph confronts the team at the end of the highway gives a slightly more nuanced implication than the English localization does there:

----
Barret: てめえ！さっきは

::Aerith turns her head towards Barret and puts out her hand to stop him; she pauses and turns back to look at Sephiroth::

Aerith: ちがう

::she stares hard at Sephiroth::

Aerith: あなたは まちがっている
---
Barret: "Fucker! You again --"

::Aerith turns her head towards Barret and puts out her hand to stop him; she pauses and turns back to look at Sephiroth::

Aerith: "It isn't."

::she stares hard at Sephiroth::

Aerith: "You ... feel wrong."
----

That's how I interpret it anyway.

I think that’s just Aerith commenting on how it’s not the same Sephiroth who was being embodied by the Sephiroth copies in the Shinra building, I don’t think it’s the same as confirming the will/consciousness is separate from the one in the Northern Crater.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Haven't they already seen his consciousness occupying and adapting different forms at that point, though -- first Marco, then the #2 black cloak? Would it really be so significant as to make a point of cutting Barret off in the middle of blessing out the guy who just killed him a little while ago?

Seems like an unnecessarily pedantic thing for Aerith to do, given the circumstances, if the entity in front of them is fundamentally the same as the one they encountered in the President's office.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's too anti-climactic and simplistic to me.

It'd be like.. Expecting the newly debuted black-cloaked figure from Birth By Sleep in 2010 to merely be an illusion or some sort of data fragment belonging to Xehanort but not actually something relevant or tangible. Or speculating that the young black-cloaked Riku in Monstro in Dream Drop Distance, to have simply been a figment of the real Riku's imagination or memory.

No, they were there, separate, and unique. Sephiroth's already done his form of astral-Jenova projection thing before. So it wouldn't be any different if it were so simple.

That Sephiroth is wrong. Wrong for a separate reason beyond just being Sephiroth, to the point Aerith even had to say it out loud.

 

[Theozilla]

Haven't they already seen his consciousness occupying and adapting different forms at that point, though -- first Marco, then the #2 black cloak? Would it really be so significant as to make a point of cutting Barret off in the middle of blessing out the guy who just killed him a little while ago?

Seems like an unnecessarily pedantic thing for Aerith to do, given the circumstances, if the entity in front of them is fundamentally the same as the one they encountered in the President's office.

I mean we the audience know that Sephiroth in the Northern Crater is manifesting through the Sephiroth copies, but the party doesn’t know about that yet. So I don’t think Aerith noting that the forms are different even if the will/consciousness are fundamentally the same is that much of a stretch.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I mean we the audience know that Sephiroth in the Northern Crater is manifesting through the Sephiroth copies, but the party doesn’t know about that yet.

Marco dropped dead right in front of them, though? After the Sephiroth in the room seemingly turned into a Jenova monster and attacked them. Then "another" Sephiroth promptly appeared and left with Jenova's body. Cloud was also able to catch a glimpse of him as the #2 guy.

Maybe it is as simple as you say, but like I said, it seems unnecessarily pedantic -- and maybe even a tad insensitive -- if Aerith is interrupting Barret just to say "No, same guy, different host body. I'm going to stop you there and stare intensely anyway."

If there was a chance the explanation was that this form of Sephiroth was Jenova's transformed body, I'd say that's probably sufficient to explain Aerith's behavior for the sake of invoking drama around that old mystery for the new fans -- but since they went out of their way with the Ultimania to tell us this isn't a manifestation of Seph we've seen previously, it seems to be nothing quite so simple.

 

[oty]

The problem is a question of focus, really. Sephiroth is a big focus of the OG's story right after you leave Midgar. He is singlehandedly the driving force behind.....pretty much everything. And it really feels like he is a looming threat, controlling the party behind the scenes. That focus is going to have to be undoubtedly divided if two Sephiroths come into play. Maybe not at first, the second Sephiroth being an even "bigger" mystery and all, but at some point it will be......Unless, 2nd Seph only shows up, and reveals itself as 2nd Seph, at the ending of the game? You fight Safer-1stSeph, think it is all over, boom 2nd Seph shows up, fight time again. That's me rambling tho.

And then why does both Sephs have knowledge of the future? That feels so redundant. Will they antagonise each other? Will they "join forces"? Goddamnit Nomura, making me go crazy thinking about this game.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You answered your question on how they'd do it. They're going to save this mysterious, anomalous Sephiroth for very few, specific key moments in the game, mostly towards the end. They're not going to try to divide focus and have two Sephs simultaneously.

They purposefully teased him at the end of the Remake for a reason.

 

[KetaKitty]

Has anyone noticed the vague language in the 4th Sephiroth's entry in the Ultimania. That phrasing I am unsure if it is just as ambiguous in Japanese. In translations they define him as a Sephiroth "is also visible to everyone apart from Cloud" or "a Sephiroth recognizable to everyone else" or "may be seen by everyone". In MTG this is called a gaping loophole just waiting to be exploited. I think that leaves the possibility that Chapter 18 Sephiroth could be Illusion Sephiroth, who is only seen by Cloud. If not why not just describe him as "New Sephiroth".

 

[Makoeyes987]

I thought that was to denote Sephiroth was physically there and witnessed in reality.

Like, this is a real Sephiroth everyone can see, and not some illusion that only Cloud sees, or manifested by Jenova's illusionary powers.

Until that moment, no one had laid eyes on a real Sephiroth. It was either just Cloud seeing hallucinations, or everyone under the influence of Jenova's powers and/or Jenova using it's magic to manifest Sephiroth's form and weapon.

 

[KetaKitty]

Your point makes a lot of sense. I just feel there are much more concise ways to get that across and without the ambiguity that exists. I still think "New Sephiroth" would do the trick just fine. They state he is new to the compilation, but not in his description as chapter 18 Sephiroth.

 

[oty]

You answered your question on how they'd do it. They're going to save this mysterious, anomalous Sephiroth for very few, specific key moments in the game, mostly towards the end. They're not going to try to divide focus and have two Sephs simultaneously.

They purposefully teased him at the end of the Remake for a reason.

That in itself is extremely complicated, and not a easy task at all. They would have to leave the overwhelming bulk of this mystery right until the end of the final installment, and besides people's patience stretching thin, the odds of that not working are simply....way too big for anyone's liking. Pretty much, in story terms, they would have to sacrifice most of the build up to that encounter, because any build up to 2nd Seph, if he's not connected to 1st Seph, directly enters in conflict with 1st Seph's build up. They would have to choose one to be the real big bad villain, otherwise things can get really, really....messy.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Definitely a big risk, no doubt about that. Whatever they're doing with Zack and the timeline shenanigans is too, though, so who knows how bold they may go.

Though I kind of figure if there are two Sephiroths, they're just going to end up merging anyway.

 

[Theozilla]

Marco dropped dead right in front of them, though? After the Sephiroth in the room seemingly turned into a Jenova monster and attacked them. Then "another" Sephiroth promptly appeared and left with Jenova's body. Cloud was also able to catch a glimpse of him as the #2 guy.

Maybe it is as simple as you say, but like I said, it seems unnecessarily pedantic -- and maybe even a tad insensitive -- if Aerith is interrupting Barret just to say "No, same guy, different host body. I'm going to stop you there and stare intensely anyway."

If there was a chance the explanation was that this form of Sephiroth was Jenova's transformed body, I'd say that's probably sufficient to explain Aerith's behavior for the sake of invoking drama around that old mystery for the new fans -- but since they went out of their way with the Ultimania to tell us this isn't a manifestation of Seph we've seen previously, it seems to be nothing quite so simple.

Oh I am aware that they at least somewhat know the copies are being manifested by Sephiroth, what I meant is that the party doesn't know about Sephiroth being in the Northern Crater.
And I agree that like the Ultimania said, Chapter 18 Sephiroth is something entirely new, but I don't think that precludes it from being the same consciousness/will as the Northern Crater Sephiroth, like maybe instead being manifested through Jenova or the Copies, chapter 18 Sephiroth was manifested out of a byproduct of the Whispers gathering or something like that, but is still being embodied by the will of the NC Sephiroth.

 

[Weeros]

You answered your question on how they'd do it. They're going to save this mysterious, anomalous Sephiroth for very few, specific key moments in the game, mostly towards the end. They're not going to try to divide focus and have two Sephs simultaneously.

They purposefully teased him at the end of the Remake for a reason.

Did they do a good job teasing him though? I mean, did you think based on the game footage alone, that this is nothing more than regular Sephiroth? I certainly didn't, the thought never even occurred to me before seeing Ultimania trying so hard to point out "this convoluted nonsense spouting Sephiroth from Chapter 18 is actually different from convoluted nonsense spouting Sephiroth from Chapter 2". Especially for English players, any subtlety of the Japanese pronouns is obviously not there at all, so what's left? I know they kinda deviate from the actual thing but the fact that it wasn't number 2 form isn't even that clear in my opinion, it appears if they just reached him at the end of the road.

I'm also curious about the quote about wanting to battle Sephiroth in Midgar, then moving it to the outskirts? From that sense, he seems like a late gameplay dictated (need to have Sephy as final boss) addition rather than well though out plot masterstroke reveal (even though they do paint it as such in Ultimania).

Uh, that’s what I am arguing too, I think it’s a new form too, as the Ultimania says, but not a separate entity from the will/consciousness of the Northern Crater Sephiroth.

Oh.. yeah. Wonder how I missed that, sorry.

 

[Wol]

SQs Marketing Team: What could attract more attention than Sephiroth?

...

Nomura: A legion of Sephiroths

Everyone in the room: *gasp* *intense applause* Nomura-san always comes with bestest ideas.

 

[Gazzdw]

After spending hours watching youtube theories and I understand what the most likely scenerio is based off the hard work of fans looking in to the minute details after a 2nd playthrough; if that in fact is the direction they are taking the Seph story thread, I am much more on board with it than what they may be doing with Zack.

I would love it though if we got to play as Zack before he (hopefully died) in the past, I don't know if that counts as a "timeline"? But not as if he is alive at the same time as the party.

The problem I am finding with all of the theory stuff is that so much of what people are hanging on to have double meanings. For example, at the edge of creation when Cloud tries to attack Seph and Seph says "not yet" or something along those lines, everyone seems to take that as he has future knowledge. However as I was playing I literally took it as "you're not strong enough to be a match for me yet".

I will write it in my review but I have to say, I didnt hate the ending as much as I thought and it was a strange moment for me during the credits where my body was telling me I loved what I experienced but my head was telling me, what the hell are they doing to this story.

 

[oty]

it was a strange moment for me during the credits where my body was telling me I loved what I experienced but my head was telling me, what the hell are they doing to this story.

Yeah that sounds about right lmao

Did they do a good job teasing him though? I mean, did you think based on the game footage alone, that this is nothing more than regular Sephiroth? I certainly didn't, the thought never even occurred to me before seeing Ultimania trying so hard to point out "this convoluted nonsense spouting Sephiroth from Chapter 18 is actually different from convoluted nonsense spouting Sephiroth from Chapter 2". Especially for English players, any subtlety of the Japanese pronouns is obviously not there at all, so what's left? I know they kinda deviate from the actual thing but the fact that it wasn't number 2 form isn't even that clear in my opinion, it appears if they just reached him at the end of the road.

I'm also curious about the quote about wanting to battle Sephiroth in Midgar, then moving it to the outskirts? From that sense, he seems like a late gameplay dictated (need to have Sephy as final boss) addition rather than well though out plot masterstroke reveal (even though they do paint it as such in Ultimania).



Oh.. yeah. Wonder how I missed that, sorry.

Thing is, we just have no idea what their thought process was. Maybe you would only get a custscene with Sephiroth at the end. Maybe they added him very early into development so the story was changed with that in mind. Or maybe it wasn't, and it was a very late addition.

It's very hard trying to pinpoint that exact timeframe, and that exact timeframe kinda makes a lot of a difference. And well, he is also meant to be a mystery. So it gets even harder to tell the difference from "this is planned" to "this doesnt feel planned". Could have been planned for this 2nd Sephiroth be something that only few would notice, and then the Ultimania would confirm it.

I would assume that, if Hamaguchi wanted to add this Sephiroth fight, it would atleast have to a) not change much of the story, so it was an "easy" addition or b)enough time to change the story to suit that. Otherwise, that is kind of a malpractice? Or atleast a bit naive.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

my body was telling me I loved what I experienced but my head was telling me, what the hell are they doing to this story.

It's called "The Square Enix effect".

 

[Makoeyes987]

Did they do a good job teasing him though? I mean, did you think based on the game footage alone, that this is nothing more than regular Sephiroth? I certainly didn't, the thought never even occurred to me before seeing Ultimania trying so hard to point out "this convoluted nonsense spouting Sephiroth from Chapter 18 is actually different from convoluted nonsense spouting Sephiroth from Chapter 2". Especially for English players, any subtlety of the Japanese pronouns is obviously not there at all, so what's left? I know they kinda deviate from the actual thing but the fact that it wasn't number 2 form isn't even that clear in my opinion, it appears if they just reached him at the end of the road.

They teased the concept of this different Sephiroth... A Sephiroth existing who was different than the previous iteration of him and going outside of the parameters of his previous role in FFVII. However, no, I also didn't at first think there were potentially two Sephiroths in play. I too merely thought the Sephiroth in Chapter 18 was the Sephiroth seen throughout the game.

But upon contemplating the potential ramifications of two different versions of Stamp existing, Zack surviving that final rush and there essentially being a timeline split, my mind immediately began turning over the possibility that two Sephiroth's could exist. Because that's the pandora's box you open by having an AU here. Sephiroth is such an overwhelming and powerful force that if another version of him existed elsewhere with the ability to crossover, he would do it. He simply wouldn't be satisfied with just his own world. It's like water flowing down hill. He'd do it.

I didn't think they'd go that far. But here are.

It's going to be very interesting to see just how this enigmatic other Sephiroth plays a role in all this. Like I said, I see the writer's letting FFVII's plot play out with the space necessary, and save this other Sephiroth for much later. He'll probably have influences and appearances in the periphery of the plot, tormenting Cloud's consciousness as he observes the story play out. And somehow at the end of defeating the Sephiroth who exists in his proper role in the plot of FFVII, this one will summarily take his place and carry on.

I'm also curious about the quote about wanting to battle Sephiroth in Midgar, then moving it to the outskirts? From that sense, he seems like a late gameplay dictated (need to have Sephy as final boss) addition rather than well though out plot masterstroke reveal (even though they do paint it as such in Ultimania).

Not exactly, it happened in the middle of development.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255728429598568449

The co-director suggested it, and Nomura agreed

 

[Odysseus]

SQs Marketing Team: What could attract more attention than Sephiroth?

...

Nomura: A legion of Sephiroths

Everyone in the room: *gasp* *intense applause* Nomura-san always comes with bestest ideas.

The applause raises, thunderous and booming. It is loud enough to shatter glass, to rupture ear drums, to raise the dead from their graves. The crowd begins to bleed from their eyes and ears. Their hands beaten into meaty stumps. What once were cheers are now shrieks, shrieks of the damned and the broken.

Tetsua Nomura flees from the stage, tears streaming down his face. He's never known such regret, such fear. With shaking hands he sends a message to his compatriots. "The promise has been made, the pact sealed. We are all dead men walking."

The ground begins to rumble. the shrieks now an unintelligible roar. As Nomura exits the building, a great chasm forms upon the earth. The building and whatever remained of the damned crowd falls deep into the abyss below.

All is silent.

With no love in his voice, Nomura utters a final statement.

"Please be excited."

 

[oty]

Do we have any indication if Reno and Rude can also see the ghosts by the end of the game?

 

[Clement Rage]

I don't think we're supposed to understand yet.

I didn't think there was two Sephiroths, I just thought that Sephy had timeline knowledge like Aerith. He knows he's fated to be ultimately defeated, so he tries recruiting Cloud instead. Paving the way for some Moebius v Kain timeline shenanigans in part 2.