SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Cannon_Fodder]

I don't mind the jump in power levels, if only because the party only does crazy stuff inside of the singularity and that makes it easy (for me) to handwave away as the singularity enhancing their power... or something. Their skills are largely in line with the rest of the game right up until the whisper wall.

I fully understand though if not everyone thinks this is an acceptable explanation.

 

[KetaKitty]

I've posted in a few places looking for help on this note so maybe you guys can help! I really enjoyed this thread, and I think this relates because you guys have talked about Edge of Creation here.
Sephiroth is ambidextrous during the Edge of Creation scene and it bothers me. I've reviewed all content of Sephiroth and only KH1 Sephiroth is offensive with his right hand, yet not in KH2. He defends a tiny bit with his right in ACC, I watched it frame by frame. Also the polygon Sephiroth scenes from the original game the Masamune is in his right hand, but the scenes redone in the SquareEnix's anime Last Order (not relevant?) are the exact scenes from the original game, but depicted with his left hand rather than the right hand, like when he struck down Tifa, and the villager in Nibelheim.
He is solely left handed in Ehrgeiz, all three Dissidias, CC and the final boss fight of REMAKE.
I'm unsure what to do with this observation, if anything. 'Right handed Sephiroth' doesn't seem legit to me at all. A fraud. If not he is certainly far more skilled than the fight you had with him previous.

Sorry for the ramble!

 

[Pizzachu]

I re-watched the Edge of Creation scene and it looks like he is still using his left hand for the most part. He probably knows how to fight with a sword using either hand, but is more skilled/prefers to use his left hand.

 

[crazyrabbits23]

Doubly jarring when the game awkwardly crashes back onto the rails of 1997 and the gang is ready to adventure across the world to chase a bad guy, as if they didn't just get thrust into an existential nightmare reality to fight an all powerful cosmic timelord. The way they all just roll with the punches and breeze over their interdimensional fate battle is hilarious honestly. Barret in particular should be losing his fucking mind all the way to the credits.

He (in)directly led the mission to blow up an entire reactor, saw himself and his whole team besieged by floating ghosts that no one else can see, watched as the President of Shinra personally framed his group as being from Wutai, flew on zipline through a sector that was in the process of being destroyed by a falling plate, was stabbed through the heart by an enemy he couldn't see (and was subsequently healed by said ghosts), and just watched as the same guy that stabbed him opened an interdimensional rift into a singularity.

I'd say his reactions by the end of the game are less him being freaked out and more him realizing (via his "spit in destiny's eye" line just before walking into the portal) that he's so over everything and only wants to get back to his kid.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Barret was always the "I don't know what the fuck is going on, but whatever, let's just get on and win this" character.

 

[KetaKitty]

I re-watched the Edge of Creation scene and it looks like he is still using his left hand for the most part. He probably knows how to fight with a sword using either hand, but is more skilled/prefers to use his left hand.

I greatly appreciate your time looking into it for me! Very kind of you!
He drops the Masamune into his right hand at the start of the fight during his tried and true stance, he has never done that before, of this i'm positive. For 16 seconds he is offensive with his right hand. From the start till when he switches hands to block, he disarms Cloud 16 additional seconds later (I used a stop watch and that's 50/50 with Masamune in each hand, almost exactly). No other evidence of him being fully ambidextrous anywhere else. I think it's important for whatever reason, why give me these nightmares of unpredictable Sephiroth if it wasn't going somewhere.
I won't press the issue any further I promise, I've just put almost a weeks amount of effort into researching this and there is zero evidence to be had to explain his skill at Edge of Creation. Unless they are simply saying we have no idea what he is capable of anymore, which is alright by me too.

 

[Odysseus]

He (in)directly led the mission to blow up an entire reactor, saw himself and his whole team besieged by floating ghosts that no one else can see, watched as the President of Shinra personally framed his group as being from Wutai, flew on zipline through a sector that was in the process of being destroyed by a falling plate, was stabbed through the heart by an enemy he couldn't see (and was subsequently healed by said ghosts), and just watched as the same guy that stabbed him opened an interdimensional rift into a singularity.

I'd say his reactions by the end of the game are less him being freaked out and more him realizing (via his "spit in destiny's eye" line just before walking into the portal) that he's so over everything and only wants to get back to his kid.

Spoiler

 

[Arianna]

https://pdfhost.io/v/lwgaBtbD1_FF7_Timelines.pdf

Not sure if anyone else came across this.

Not sure if it's official...

 

[Wol]

Spoiler

View attachment 6007

Finally the lore tie-in I craved for.

This mess was foreshadowed as a beautiful pre-meta commentary.

 

[Shademp]

"With Omega destroyed Sephiroth's options for reaching the cosmos are limited"

Really interesting idea. That could feed into my crack-theory that the explosion of Omega is what allowed Sephiroth to send his consciousness back in time in the first place. Sephiroth's spirit hijacked Omega as it was leaving the planet, Omega explodes, spacetime is weakened and Sephiroth finds his chance to go back in time.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It's so tiny I can't read it.

 

[Shademp]

@LicoriceAllsorts There is a zoom-in function.

 

[Arianna]

It's so tiny I can't read it.

Click on the + sign.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I see that timeline has the same misunderstanding about the Sector 7 plate we all went through hell over two weeks ago...

It's a nice visualization of the differences between the OG FFVII and what the Whispers have changed however the ending interpretation over Biggs and the plate's a bit off base. I suppose they haven't seen the Ultimania yet or something.

 

[Odysseus]

I was thinking about the whole issue with the plate recently. There isn't a skybox in the game that depicts sector 7 without a plate during the daytime from the POV of sector 7. There's one from the POV of sector 6, and a night time version from sector 7, but no day from sector 7. Maybe it wasn't a mistake and they just didn't think it was worth making a new asset for a short scene.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I missed that whole discussion about the sector 7 plate and Biggs. What does the Ultimania say? (Don't answer if you think it will open a whole can of worms)

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Thanks, with your help I figured it out!

 

[Odysseus]

I missed that whole discussion about the sector 7 plate and Biggs. What does the Ultimania say? (Don't answer if you think it will open a whole can of worms)

Basically, there's a shot of Marle looking up at the sky when the gold dust starts raining down, and above her is clearly the sector 6 plate even though she is clearly in sector 7. Some people thought it was evidence of an alternate universe where the plate didn't fall and Biggs survived, some people thought it was a mistake, and now I think it was square being lazy and using the sector 6 plate as a stand in for sector 7's collapsed plate so they didn't need to make a new asset.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That timeline Arianna posted was really interesting. I have no idea if it's official or just someone's informed headcanon, but it does seem internally consistent. Sephiroth in the post-DOC future sends himself back in time to undo the events of FFVII. Aerith sends herself back in time to thwart him. The Harbinger exists to maintain order in the timeline. Remake Aerith is out of place in the timeline, so every time the Whispers touch her "she loses part of herself" (her future self, her knowledge?). Maybe that is why they were harassing her when Cloud first meets her; they sense she is a time anomaly.

Still going by that timeline - I am a little puzzled as to why Cloud and Co ended up fighting the Harbinger at the end of Part 1. Why would the Harbinger present itself to them as an antagonist? They have done everything they were supposed to do, and the orthodox timeline is back on track. Why would the Planet want Harbinger to fight them? Are we to suppose that Sephiroth has wrested control of Harbinger away from the Planet? How did he do that? In the OG the Weapons were random weapons of mass destruction, but OG Planet was a little child in pain lashing out at people. The Remake Planet is a more self-aware and sophisticated entiity.

Forgive me if this has already been discussed. If someone has figured out an answer as to why Cloud & Co ended up fighting their ally and the very thing the Planet created to keep them on course, when they were on course, I would love to hear it.

(Also, why are these Planet's defenses so feeble that four puny humans and a labrat dog can defeat them?)

 

[crazyrabbits23]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed. If someone has figured out an answer as to why Cloud & Co ended up fighting their ally and the very thing the Planet created to keep them on course, when they were on course, I would love to hear it.

The only way I can rationalize it is that Sephy has lulled them into believing that he is controlling the Whispers, and that rather than attempt to figure out how to extricate the latter from the former, the party basically threw the baby out with the bathwater and decided to take them all on, all at once. After all, the Harbinger directly spawns the spirit versions of Sephiroth's Remnants, and I've seen some theories batted around that the Harbinger could be Ultima or another insanely-powerful creature that Sephiroth is controlling behind the scenes.

That said, I also have reason to think that there are "helpful" Whispers. In particular, the one that healed Barret spends several minutes fixing him, then pauses in front of the group and seems to stare directly at him before leaving. (Barret's wife? Dyne?)

Also, one other thing I noticed is that right after the Zack flashback, Aerith appears to be the only one to acknowledge it and looks up in surprise while the rest of the party is still holding their heads. No one else seems to comment on it after the fact.

 

[Rydeen]

I think it's more likely that Sephiroth tricked the party into killing the Whispers, but what if the planet is actually the bad guy in this? What if in the future it decided to wipe out humanity, and Sephiroth and the party have to unite against it in spite of having separate goals? What if the party has to eventually prove to the planet, for real this time, that humans are worthy of being a part of existence? This can fit into Makoeyes' theory as well.

 

[Suzaku]

Basically, there's a shot of Marle looking up at the sky when the gold dust starts raining down, and above her is clearly the sector 6 plate even though she is clearly in sector 7.

I'd have to rewatch the scene but I thought they were on the outskirts of Sector 7 (IE effectively in Sector 6) pulling debris of the wreckage. Either way it's obviously not important. When things are important the directing makes it obvious, like the slowdown on the Stamp chip bag.

 

[Noble0ne]

Can somebody Make, or direct me to the "Hopes for Remake part two thread"

I'm over any of my ch 18 qualms. I'm just going to believe whatever my brain tells me after I do my own researching.

I'm ready to talk about the upcoming open-word and the confirmed left out materia like Flare and the Vision materia for Aerith.

Spoiler: some trolling salt mixed into some Haterade

...im just wasting time here being a big baby...

...why? Idk, I feel compelled to pat myself on the back for possibly unwaranted correctness. while slingin some possibly undwaranted shade.

...You've been warned lol...

So It lightly bums me out (not really), that I have not seen any of the people, who argued in heavy opposition to the now Ultimania confirmed theories, go back and actually acknowledge they were wrong. I would have at least wanted to see some praise too the good detective deductions made beforehand by many. I think the good guesses deserve some cred...

..its odd to me:

There will be some that believe this is not a sequel, despite the Ultimania interview where Nomura states this is the 5th addition to the compilation of CC, OG, DC, AC shared universe works, & further, him directly expressing he did not want to make a mere standard remake.

There are going to be people who believe Zack is dead or will soon die, despite being confirmed alive in the Ultimania.

There are going to be people that do not believe there are any alternate realities or timeline mess despite the Ultimania book itself poking questions at the stamp chip bag & Zack walking past Aerith. And noting the final sepheroth is one we have never ever seen before. Im mean they walk into a dame singularity!? Like WTF... That's not remake content., but I digress

There are going to be people that believe Rubrum, Viridi, and Croceo, despite being confirmed to take their fighting styles from Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo... Will in some weird plot twist end up being somebody other than who they are clearly indicated.

There are going to be people that dont believe the FF10 connection despite the direct Ultimania image correlation and description. Furthermore, the Mako crystal item being green like the Lifestream, & the otherworldly crystal being yellowish like the Farplaine light.

I appreciate technicality police. but really doe... I have some serious emersion issues with wanting people to accept the same sentiments I assume game creators intended you should derive. even if they are going to F' with that expectation later. I like taking a story at face value. I get all perspectives are relative opinions... But I'm a big baby. I just want to be told I'm right when I extrapolate, especially when I didn't just pull findings out of thin air.

And I don't like the end game as a Remake, but can dig it as a sequel. Call me entitled, That's my stance on that. When I look at it that way I find it easy to leave my expectations very positively open to whatever comes next. That just me.

Now that I got out all that salty, shade salt shook out... I won't be holding my breath,, I just want you all to agree with me 100%, nobody can disagree!. Jkjk... Lol... *Sigh* (T-T )`'°*I know nobody cares for my corny inside jokes*

...blame the quarantine... I'm got nothing better to do.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Keep in mind that not everyone is going to know what is in the Ultimania. There is a language barrier there and most games don't have something like an Ultimania to consult for answers later. In order to know about a lot of theories being confirmed, people need to know the Ultimanias exist in the first place.

There is also the (well deserved) criticism that if a story needs another work (and one that breaks the 4th wall by design) to be properly understood, then the original story probably wasn't clear enough on it's own. There's a good case to be made for studying what kind of story FF7R is telling without taking the Ultimanas into account, if simply from the standpoint of literary analysis.

 

[Maidenofwar]

What is "Vision" materia for Aerith?