SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Noble0ne]

Jabs at the game aside, if you analyze the totality of Arbiter of Fate events that transpire within the story, the commonality they all share is that they "course correct" situations that would deviate from their path as shown before in FFVII.

How these deviations occur, seems to almost entirely be in connection to Sephiroth or his influence. Interestingly enough, these forces are side by side each other in numerous scenes or events. Between Cloud either having visions of Sephiroth that distract him, move him to make different choices, or even attempting to slow him down from actually meeting Aerith, the Whispers somehow try to intercede at certain points.

There's an implied tug-of-war between these two forces, with Sephiroth's presence in the Shinra Building exacerbating their manifestation. To the point that they cluster, surround Midgar entirely, and create a singularity to the past (and apparently even the future) that Sephiroth tries to exploit until he's beaten back. The "Seven seconds till the end" line speaks to the amount of time left for that singularity to remain active. He's seemingly baiting Cloud and the others to make a change that would in essence do his work for him. They avoid taking the bait since the progression of Zack's journey and inevitable conclusion remain in tact and Cloud and the others move on.

There is definitely some sort of force at work that appears to be trying to protect the Planet from the perceived distortions Sephiroth is trying to manifest, because he clearly wants to try accelerate his plans. I think Destiny's Crossroads is a clear reference to how in essence Sephiroth nearly skipped ahead to the part he wins through using the planet's own Temporal defense against him.

That's sortsa what I was saying... I want it to be true just so I'm no longer confused... But really we have to wait till game two... I doubt there is that much info after beating hard mode to qench the fire

...

Sephiroth after the events of Advent Children has found a way to time travel to the past.
He time travels to Midgar just after the first mako reactor explosion. He meets Cloud in the back alley (which doesn't happen in the original FF7) and talks to him.

After Sephiroth talks to Cloud it alters the timeline so the guardians of destiny, the Whispers, show up to try and restore order and not let the past change due to Sephiroth's intervention.

As Cloud was delayed by TT (time travel) Sephiroth in the alley he would have missed running into Aerith thus changing the timeline forever, so the Whispers show up and keep Aerith in place so they can still both meet.

Throughout the rest of the game TT Sephiroth makes appearances, and whenever these appearances alter how the characters would act the Whispers intervene to keep everything on track with destiny (the original FF7 storyline). The 'keepers of fate' show up at pivotal moments in the storyline to prevent changes from happening to the story.

The intervention after letting Cloud meet Aerith continues, She doesnt leave immediately after cloud tells her to go, and as a result, the shinra troops find cloud while aerith Is still present. Its at this point that the keepers show up and scare aeris away. Odd, right?

Next scene with the keepers is in the slums. Cloud wasn't going to go on the 2nd bombing mission. It was a way to make him go. They attack in the Sector 7 Slums to injure Jessie so she doesnt go to the Sector 5 Reactor forcing Cloud to go.

After that, the next time we see them is in the church after cloud defeats reno. Cloud is about to kill reno and the keepers show up and drag him and aeris away to the back room. In the back room, the wispers proceed to show Cload and Airith the direction they escaped in the OG. Aerith almost falls down from the upper area on there way out but, the wispers save her from falling and being captured by Reno and his guards.

In Shinra HQ the wispers show up and just take away Wedge who had survived his fall off of the column support beam tower, & then he had survived the plate drop on sector 7.

1 more example is hojo is about to reveal to cloud and company that he was never in soldier, then he is taken away by the keepers.

In the original FF7 Palmer doesn't see Sephiroth/Jenova until he kills President Shinra. In this one he sees TT Sephiroth in the hallway which alters the course causing President Shinra to not be found already dead by Cloud and co and with Palmer hiding to witness it all. This time Jenova (or TT Sephiroth) kills President Shinra AND Barret, however the Whispers intervene to keep Barrett alive, & to keep their destiny on track as per the original FF7 storyline.

Eventually they make it to the end of the Midgar expressway where they would normally leave Midgar, however TT Sephiroth shows up to have Cloud and co defeat destiny. Cloud and co fight destiny and have flashforwards of what will happen if they do not defeat destiny (the original FF7 timeline).

They eventually defeat the destiny ghost allowing them to forge a new future where TT Sephiroth is in their timeline from the future. From here on out anything can happen. Airith speaks to the group on the endless possibility's that awaits them on the other side.

TT Sephiroth then brings Cloud to the Edge of Creation and seems to be trying to help him. He tells him that now destiny has been defeated "That which lies ahead...does not yet exist" meaning he is now unsure of how the future will unfold.

TT Sephiroth then looks towards the edge of creation saying "Our world will become a part of it...one day." followed by "nor will I have you end." insinuating that he wants to keep Cloud alive. He then asks Cloud to help him "defy destiny together". Cloud refuses and he is sent back to Midgar.

At this point, id like you to acknowledge that events are playing out differently to the original. Cloud never went to the cosmos edge before, and if the keepers were not there to stop said story events from transpiring, the story would change dramatically. The puprose of the watchers is to keep the events of ff7 in line with the original.
The ending reveals that sephiroth, and to a lesser extent Aerith, are aware of this. Sephiroth knows that he loses in the end if the keepers continue to preserve the events of this ff7 timeline, so he manipulated Cloud and company to fight them.

After Sephiroth sends cloud back to Midgar from the cosmos edge. they fight an advent children style sephiroth(???)

With the keepers dead, and the skies becoming clear, its Insinuated that because they no longer exist, the original timeline and events of ff7 are not going to happen as they did in the original. The ff7 you have been playing was either never was the one you thought it was, and only happened the way it did because the keepers tried to keep events the same, or that the OG was/is a overarching past to this alternative time line. Now they (the Wispers) are dead and going forward from here means anything can happen.

The next game may not even be FF7 remake now... It could be FF7 Rebirth

I think this was the whole point of letting old players know that anything could happen. It just was such a convoluted way to do so.

As for Zack, it's possible Sephiroth helped him defeat the soldiers without him realizing it. The Whispers then surrounded Midgar to stop Zack from going there and changing destiny.
However when Cloud defeats destiny in the not so far future it destroys the whispers stopping Zack going home and allows him to live. I don't know they are a lot of holes in this theory.

I could be completely wrong but this is how I best interpreted the events.

Pot holes I know... Why not TTsephy go and kill cloud as a kid... A million more plot holes... I chock it to the fault of off the wall writing attempt.

My theory post again if you missed it

Logging off for a bit.. Later peeps

 

[Makoeyes987]

The point I'm making, is that Sephiroth is seemingly working through an unforseen mechanism to distort events to a level which is motivating these whispers to interject. The reason behind their manifesting seems to be either his actual presence, influence or will being in each of the scenes here.

Jenova's presence also seems to be something that triggers their likelihood because when the two came close to each other, their density and size increased significantly. The fact a singularity point that crossed the past, present and future seems to have been Sephiroth's plan all along.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The point I'm making, is that Sephiroth is seemingly working through an unforseen mechanism to distort events to a level which is motivating these whispers to interject.

Well, that's what I mean. Something (i.e. your unknown mechanism) has seemingly traversed time to give him this knowledge of what to mess with to cause the Arbiters to intervene.

 

[Kratos]

A few pages back, the idea was presented that the Whispers essentially existed "outside time" and that through them (or other Lifestream shenanigans), Sephiroth can view events going forward. He sees that he loses, so he tries to change things.

That, to me, both fits all the evidence and makes sense without getting all meta about it and requiring a time-travel plot by a defeated AC Sephiroth. I know Occam's Razor doesn't apply to crafted fictional works, but in the interest of keeping things simple, that's the version I'm inclined to believe unless evidence points definitively towards meta-textual reality traversal.

 

[oty]

I think there is still a lot of ground in here tho. Cloud keeps seeing these flashes of the future. I think they could be another Sephiroth "trick", which I dont think actually time travelled, but somehow managed to acquire knowledge of his future/time stuff. Well, its kind of time travel, but not really physical you know? The Whispers, a part of the Planet I presume, sense a disturbance in the course of history and intervene. Sephiroth being the mad genius tries to use that to his advantage, but appatently fails? I like Mako's idea of the singularity that connects past, present and future all at once, even though I still dont know why it happened? Sephiroth maybe made such change from the original course that the Planet went haywire trying to fix it?

The thing is, the way I've seen it, this universe of FFVIIR was going to always deviate from the original. Without the Whispers, there is nothing to stop it from deviating more. I mean, unless the Sephiroth with the knowledge of time also went away, things can really go to a lot of directions now.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

A few pages back, the idea was presented that the Whispers essentially existed "outside time" and that through them (or other Lifestream shenanigans), Sephiroth can view events going forward. He sees that he loses, so he tries to change things.

That, to me, both fits all the evidence and makes sense without getting all meta about it and requiring a time-travel plot by a defeated AC Sephiroth.

But why didn't the Sephiroth who was defeated in AC have the same experience when it was his turn to live through the events of the original game? Something or someone is working across time.

 

[Noble0ne]

Well off off

A few pages back, the idea was presented that the Whispers essentially existed "outside time" and that through them (or other Lifestream shenanigans), Sephiroth can view events going forward. He sees that he loses, so he tries to change things.

That, to me, both fits all the evidence and makes sense without getting all meta about it and requiring a time-travel plot by a defeated AC Sephiroth. I know Occam's Razor doesn't apply to crafted fictional works, but in the interest of keeping things simple, that's the version I'm inclined to believe unless evidence points definitively towards meta-textual reality traversal.

I can get with that...

Edit* but I can see The Twilight Mexican point... How far is sephy seeing into the future till he losses... Till the point of AC or just the OG?

 

[Wol]

whatever happened, it doesnt seem Sephiroth lost in this game. His demeanor was of one that had everything under control, all the time.

It might be that he baited the party to defy fate, which seems like he wants to do and that might be a possibility now? But will the party defy fate in the end?

The Whispers could be a type of Weapon that has the role of protecting Time.

 

[Theozilla]

Perhaps the knowledge of the Whispers and time shenanigans came from Sephiroth’s dip in the Lifestream? Since that’s also how Sephiroth gained the knowledge that Jenova actually wasn’t an Ancient/Cetra but an alien scourge and of the black materia/meteor (and the WEAPONs?) in the OG. So I suppose Lifestream knowledge can be used as a catch-all knowledge repository for the game’s plot?

 

[Makoeyes987]

We honestly don't know the who, what, when, where or why Sephiroth apparently has a cheat sheet that led him to the answer of ripping a hole in space-time to potentially alter the past. But he gained that knowledge from something.

But why didn't the Sephiroth who was defeated in AC have the same experience when it was his turn to live through the events of the original game? Something or someone is working across time.

What would be the force or entity that would interject or wish to give Sephiroth a leg-up in terms of surviving and adapting to a threat that would endanger his life?

What would be the ally or force that would wish to assist with a much needed rejuvenation? From a killing so complete that the only way to recover would be to perhaps, reunite the experiences previously gained in order to adapt and potentially succeed where he failed?

Until more elucidation from the plot is revealed, it's an unknown factor. But Sephiroth did gain something which allows him to work beyond the confines of his present self. And it seems something had to have given him an assist.

 

[oty]

Sephiroth, once again, is the big mystery of FFVII (R). How did he achieve such knowledge? What are the extents of his power? What did he try to do? And much more.

 

[Kratos]

But why didn't the Sephiroth who was defeated in AC have the same experience when it was his turn to live through the events of the original game? Something or someone is working across time.

Simply because that story wasn't written with the Whispers - or whatever element of the Lifestream gave him the Sight - in mind. This is a new version of the story embellished with this new piece of lore, unconnected to the version that didn't include it.

 

[Noble0ne]

whatever happened, it doesnt seem Sephiroth lost in this game. His demeanor was of one that had everything under control, all the time.

It might be that he baited the party to defy fate, which seems like he wants to do and that might be a possibility now? But will the party defy fate in the end?

The Whispers could be a type of Weapon that has the role of protecting Time.

Wisper are a weapon.... Mind blown... That's why they got so big and had the epic cut scene.

Why did I not come to this conclution

 

[Theozilla]

Simply because that story wasn't written with the Whispers - or whatever element of the Lifestream gave him the Sight - in mind. This is a new version of the story embellished with this new piece of lore, unconnected to the version that didn't include it.

I think Tres is already aware of the Doylistic reasons for why. I think he was more throwing out questions of how the writers can/will justify/reconcile it in the Watsonian level.

 

[Wol]

Wisper are a weapon.... Mind blown... That's why they got so big and had the epic cut scene.

Why did I not come to this conclution

just my 2 cents, im lost and afraid

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Until more elucidation from the plot is revealed, it's an unknown factor. But Sephiroth did gain something which allows him to work beyond the confines of his present self. And it seems something had to have given him an assist.

Were we ever disagreeing then? That's what I've been talking about all along. XD

Glad to see that we are on the same page after all. Care to guess as to any of the who, what, when, where, and why of it?

I'm still of the suspicion it was probably Sephiroth himself in AC. If a power to transcend time is within the scope of a Lifestream -- and we know that it is (see: FFIX and tracing souls' memories to Crystal World ... perhaps "the edge of creation" Seph spoke of) -- then surely a being who commanded much of the Lifestream at the moment of his final defeat could have performed the relatively simple task of sending himself a vision at another place in time?

 

[Kratos]

I think Tres is already aware of the Doylistic reasons for why. I think he was more throwing out questions of how the writers can/will justify/reconcile it in the Watsonian level.

But you can only ask questions about the actions of a character from a different story using a Doylist perspective, no? Until AC Sephiroth is confirmed to be a character in Remake, what he did or did not do or have knowledge of has no bearing on the story or characters of FFVII:R (from a Watsonian point of view).

Anyways, my point was that I don't agree that someone or something is necessarily reaching out across time to "help" Sephiroth. I just don't see the evidence for it - or, more specifically, I don't see why it would have to be something more complex than "he got knowledge via the Lifestream/the Whispers and acted on it."

 

[Noble0ne]

Were we ever disagreeing then? That's what I've been talking about all along. XD

Glad to see that we are on the same page after all. Care to guess as to any of the who, what, when, where, and why of it?

I'm still of the suspicion it was probably Sephiroth himself in AC. If a power to transcend time is within the scope of a Lifestream -- and we know that it is (see: FFIX and tracing souls' memories to Crystal World ... perhaps "the edge of creation" Seph spoke of) -- then surely a being who commanded much of the Lifestream at the moment of his final defeat could have performed the relatively simple task of sending himself a vision at another place in time?

You know what... What if ALL the compilation mythos is to be used. And the connections to FF10 are true... Tidus and the fates in that game made Zanarkin exist over time and defied time! Tidus was from 1000 years in the past or something

What if whispers are the descendant's of the fates from Spira... Like president Shinra being a descendent of kid Shinra in FFX-2

What if the life steam taught Sephy what the fates in Spira knew. They did revive Tidus again for Yuna in X-2, hence revival powers

Kind of hard to work that logic considering; how is it possible that a Shinra family would have kept that kids mako knowledge over planetary travel & the Cetra timeline, then the Cetra wipe out from comet disaster. But hey, just kicking dust up now. (Maybe the Spirans & Cetra kept kid Shinra bedtime stories that the humans who stopped searching took to heart. And the present shinra family just changed there name to match there inspired influencer)

How do you like them lemons!

Edit* okay ill stop... I'm done for today... I'll get offline now. For real now

 

[Makoeyes987]

Were we ever disagreeing then? That's what I've been talking about all along. XD

Glad to see that we are on the same page after all. Care to guess as to any of the who, what, when, where, and why of it?

I'm still of the suspicion it was probably Sephiroth himself in AC. If a power to transcend time is within the scope of a Lifestream -- and we know that it is (see: FFIX and tracing souls' memories to Crystal World ... perhaps "the edge of creation" Seph spoke of) -- then surely a being who commanded much of the Lifestream at the moment of his final defeat could have performed the relatively simple task of sending himself a vision at another place in time?

Oh I'm not in disagreement at all. But, it's something to think about. What we know is that Sephiroth is possessing knowledge and awareness regarding events and how to manipulate time with these Arbiters. So the question becomes, what would wish to assist him in gaining said awareness and realizing his ambitions and survival? I think that's a very critical question.

If it was AC Sephiroth, how did he transmit that information to himself? The Lifestream (or Negative Lifestream) is one possible mechanism. But I do think there's potential for another avenue as well, especially considering what goes down in Ch. 18 Destiny's Crossroads. But at this point, your postulation is as as good as any. Memories being capable of tracing back to their source is within the bounds of spirit energy.

Honestly in my opinion? I think it's Jenova. I think Jenova, or rather her traits, has allowed Sephiroth to acquire necessary knowledge to allow him to potentially survive and save himself.

But you can only ask questions about the actions of a character from a different story using a Doylist perspective, no? Until AC Sephiroth is confirmed to be a character in Remake, what he did or did not do or have knowledge of has no bearing on the story or characters of FFVII:R (from a Watsonian point of view).

Anyways, my point was that I don't agree that someone or something is necessarily reaching out across time to "help" Sephiroth. I just don't see the evidence for it - or, more specifically, I don't see why it would have to be something more complex than "he got knowledge via the Lifestream/the Whispers and acted on it."

Without going too deep in the weeds, I do think there is significance in the fact the future that was glimpsed was from AC.

Knowledge from the Lifestream would give Sephiroth maybe structural awareness of what's necessary but Sephiroth's appearances and movements within the story are precise and subtlety nudging Cloud and the others to do things that sometimes knock them off their original course. Either he's just lucky or something else is at work.

AC Sepihroth may not be a direct character or relevancy but there's something that seems to be at work here.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Anyways, my point was that I don't agree that someone or something is necessarily reaching out across time to "help" Sephiroth. I just don't see the evidence for it - or, more specifically, I don't see why it would have to be something more complex than "he got knowledge via the Lifestream/the Whispers and acted on it."

That's really just "something reaching across time" by another descriptor, though, isn't it? Whether it be the Sephiroth of another era or this one.

In any case, the Whispers themselves are the evidence for that reaching out. If the original story doesn't exist on a Watsonian level relative to this one, there's no reason for the Whispers to be doing all the things they do to try preserving that order of events. They simply shouldn't care.

 

[Theozilla]

But you can only ask questions about the actions of a character from a different story using a Doylist perspective, no? Until AC Sephiroth is confirmed to be a character in Remake, what he did or did not do or have knowledge of has no bearing on the story or characters of FFVII:R (from a Watsonian point of view).

Anyways, my point was that I don't agree that someone or something is necessarily reaching out across time to "help" Sephiroth. I just don't see the evidence for it - or, more specifically, I don't see why it would have to be something more complex than "he got knowledge via the Lifestream/the Whispers and acted on it."

Oh I agree that The Lifestream is the most likely and simplest explanation for all this. It allows for things to be both vague and overly specific as a plot device simultaneously. I don’t think AC/C Sephiroth needs be the explanation (like how the Star Trek reboot film has original Spock unintentionally cause the new movie timeline).

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's really just "something reaching across time" by another descriptor, though, isn't it? Whether it be the Sephiroth of another era or this one.

In any case, the Whispers themselves are the evidence for that reaching out. If the original story doesn't exist on a Watsonian level relative to this one, there's no reason for the Whispers to be doing all the things they do to try preserving that order of events. They simply shouldn't care.

What I mean is, I think AC Sephiroth may have somehow utilized Jenova's Reunion ability to actually unite his memories/knowledge/whatever to give his past self a means of preventing his inevitable fate.

Jenova's abilities are a two-way circuit in terms of transmitting genetic traits, abilities, and knowledge. Sephiroth is capable of being able to mentally control, visualize and sense phenomenon through his copies. Jenova as a space-traveling entity of indeterminate age and origin might be far more powerful and cosmic than we imagined. If Sephiroth is capable of ascending to godhood via spirit energy absorption, think about it.

Sephiroth has the ability to be present wherever his copies are. Sephiroth has seemingly fantastic magical ability and power. What's the last trait a deity, already capable of resurrecting himself from the dead, needs to possess? Omniscience, right?

The fact the Whispers went wild with Sephiroth's presence in the Shinra Building where Jenova was, also seems very intentional. The fact Cloud had a neighbor who was a Sephiroth Copy in the Sector 7 slums seems highly intentional too. Not to mention the Sephiroth Copy that was living near Aerith as well...

There's are a lot of seemingly chance alignments that are far too.. convenient to be coincidental.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

"I will never be just a memory" indeed.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Between the flash-forwards to AC, and the writers communicating how significant Advent Children was for them in designing this Remake, and it being the final end point of Sephiroth's life, it really makes me believe they're drawing something from that work of theirs. Maybe more than just artistic CGI direction.

It's a plot thread that is just long enough to dangle not too obviously, yet be long enough to grab onto.

 

[Wol]

What I mean is, I think AC Sephiroth may have somehow utilized Jenova's Reunion ability to actually unite his memories/knowledge/whatever to give his past self a means of preventing his inevitable fate.

Jenova's abilities are a two-way circuit in terms of transmitting genetic traits, abilities, and knowledge. Sephiroth is capable of being able to mentally control, visualize and sense phenomenon through his copies. Jenova as a space-traveling entity of indeterminate age and origin might be far more powerful and cosmic than we imagined. If Sephiroth is capable of ascending to godhood via spirit energy absorption, think about it.

Sephiroth has the ability to be present wherever his copies are. Sephiroth has seemingly fantastic magical ability and power. What's the last trait a deity, already capable of resurrecting himself from the dead, needs to possess? Omniscience, right?

The fact the Whispers went wild with Sephiroth's presence in the Shinra Building where Jenova was, also seems very intentional. The fact Cloud had a neighbor who was a Sephiroth Copy in the Sector 7 slums seems highly intentional too. Not to mention the Sephiroth Copy that was living near Aerith as well...

There's are a lot of seemingly chance alignments that are far too.. convenient to be coincidental.

all this craziness be tied to Jenova is honestly the best possible explanation they could choose at this point.