SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
What I mean is, I think AC Sephiroth may have somehow utilized Jenova's Reunion ability to actually unite his memories/knowledge/whatever to give his past self a means of preventing his inevitable fate.

Jenova's abilities are a two-way circuit in terms of transmitting genetic traits, abilities, and knowledge. Sephiroth is capable of being able to mentally control, visualize and sense phenomenon through his copies. Jenova as a space-traveling entity of indeterminate age and origin might be far more powerful and cosmic than we imagined. If Sephiroth is capable of ascending to godhood via spirit energy absorption, think about it.

Sephiroth has the ability to be present wherever his copies are. Sephiroth has seemingly fantastic magical ability and power. What's the last trait a deity, already capable of resurrecting himself from the dead, needs to possess? Omniscience, right?

The more I think about this, the more it also starts to sound like Ultimecia's Time Compression spell. She could only perform it by being present in multiple eras simultaneously, and once she did, she was going to accomplish what Sephiroth had wanted to do with FFVII's planet -- only on a universal scale, becoming one with all time and space.

May be that this Sephiroth now feels ready to attempt that very thing himself. With the knowledge of how things went for his other self, he may have decided he's ready for the big time, one or two simple planets not being enough.

So perhaps he's going to be combining a version of his, Ulty, and Kuja's plans. =P
 

Kratos

Pro Adventurer
That's really just "something reaching across time" by another descriptor, though, isn't it? Whether it be the Sephiroth of another era or this one.

In any case, the Whispers themselves are the evidence for that reaching out. If the original story doesn't exist on a Watsonian level relative to this one, there's no reason for the Whispers to be doing all the things they do to try preserving that order of events. They simply shouldn't care.

But if time is a flat circle, then maybe Fate, in this case, is determined not by a god but by who people are - things were always going to happen the way they were because, barring outside knowledge, people are who they are and were never going to respond to events in a different way. Sephiroth's attempts to tweak how people act and what they do from the "outside" (so to speak) is what gets them riled up - he's not an influence that's "supposed" to be present. Thus, It's not a deviation from the original that gets them going necessarily; it's an attempt by a human to veer things off the "natural" course using "forbidden knowledge."

(It's also tricky to say how any future knowledge on the part of Sephiroth jives with the stated intent is to preserve the original story, assuming the devs aren't lying - or only referring to this first game - when they say that. This is especially pertinent if we take the Remake ending to mean that the Whispers have been subdued somehow, though I suppose that depends on how exactly Sephiroth plans to change his Bad End and how overt he plans to make his actions.)
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Precisely, that's how I'm thinking of it too. He attempted creating a singularity of time that allowed him access to the past and the party saw glimpses of the future. They didn't understand or grasp the significance, but that's what it was. Sephiroth possessing future, precise contextual knowledge of later game events/plot-points and Cloud seemingly receiving said knowledge with no awareness of their meaning, would be explained by this. Clearly, Sephiroth is gonna try something to give himself a leg up to essentially, do a better job at becoming a god.

In terms of the adaption of the Remake, this is what gives space to the writers to color outside of the lines in regards to telling the story of FFVII in the Remake. Things can be different just enough while also fitting within the confines of the narrative.

But if time is a flat circle, then maybe Fate, in this case, is determined not by a god but by who people are - things were always going to happen the way they were because, barring outside knowledge, people are who they are and were never going to respond to events in a different way. Sephiroth's attempts to tweak how people act and what they do from the "outside" (so to speak) is what gets them riled up - he's not an influence that's "supposed" to be present. Thus, It's not a deviation from the original that gets them going necessarily; it's an attempt by a human to veer things off the "natural" course using "forbidden knowledge."

Then again...assuming the devs aren't lying (or only referring to this first game) when they say the intent is to preserve the original story, it's tricky to say how any future knowledge on the part of Sephiroth jives with that, especially if we take the Remake ending to mean that the Whispers have been subdued somehow, though I suppose that depends on how exactly Sephiroth plans to change his Bad End and how overt he plans to make his actions.

Pretty much. That makes sense. The Planet is able to sense or hold a sort of temporal awareness/realizaiton when something outside the flow is acting to interfere in the progression of events. It probably exists on a level that isn't really part of the planet but the future....

....Which explains how the Whispers are from a future timeline that works to protect its own existence and the destiny that created them. They move to hone in on things that threaten their progression from within the planet. They don't exist in the present, only from the future.

This does preserve the original story while giving them space to mix things up and not leave everyone predicting precisely what will happen. They do want to leave some measure of uncertainty and surprise in their work, after all.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I feel pretty comfortable with this assessment of things we've arrived upon. I guess my only other curiosity at the moment is whether Seph actively sought to trick Cloud and co. into defeating the Whispers or if the party tricked themselves.

When they see that vision of 500 years in the future, Nanaki misinterprets it as "A glimpse of tomorrow if we fail here today." Simply his error or Sephiroth's manipulations?
 

pollenainne

Pro Adventurer
Yeah, I think Sephy is merely taking advantage of the Whispers as he he seem to have seen the future and might have knowledge on what they will and will not do to keep the future intact. However, he definitely does not control them as he even asks Cloud's help to change the future. But in the earlier part of the story, things have been going his way well enough, so he actually has the aid of the Whispers in this case. The Whispers even saved Aerith and Cloud too.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Probably his own error due to lack of contextual awareness of how far in the future it is and his own reason for being there. Seeing a future event of yourself with zero context could easily make one jump to conclusions, especially when the situation surrounding their visualization of the future is in a climactic battle against the big-bad.

I think this basically was the writer's way of ending the game in a way that lets it be self-contained with it's own high stakes, while allowing the overarching plot of FFVII to remain relevant, and introduce uncertainty as to what could/couldn't happen in Part 2. It's going to be what comes next but there's just plenty of spaces for the Remake to do things new and utilize Sephiroth in different, unique ways.

I think Sephiroth used the Whispers intentionally to create that tear in space-time that allowed him potential access to the past. It certainly reframes the Shinra Building massacre and awakening of Jenova. Because like in FFVII, it happened.

However, it happened in a far bigger, and relevant way in reference to the unique elements added to the Remake.
 

pollenainne

Pro Adventurer
I feel pretty comfortable with this assessment of things we've arrived upon. I guess my only other curiosity at the moment is whether Seph actively sought to trick Cloud and co. into defeating the Whispers or if the party tricked themselves.

When they see that vision of 500 years in the future, Nanaki misinterprets it as "A glimpse of tomorrow if we fail here today." Simply his error or Sephiroth's manipulations?
Oh this is a perfect question. I have been wondering about what Red said at that time and completely forgot about it. I would say, there is no way Red actually can tell what it means and maybe Sephy did try to manipulate it that way. However, I don't actually think this is the end of the Whispers... I am also wondering about the "7 seconds" Sephy mentioned and asked Cloud what he was going to do...
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I honestly think he was tempting Cloud and the others to potentially reach out and change the past or something. They were there, and maybe could have done something to change the past.

Thankfully they didn't. But I think it sorta brings context to the expression Aerith has after seeing Zack, and her hesitation. Maybe she felt sadness, regret, or longing in not having done more to reach out to him? Dunno, but something that I just thought of.
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
Oh this is a perfect question. I have been wondering about what Red said at that time and completely forgot about it. I would say, there is no way Red actually can tell what it means and maybe Sephy did try to manipulate it that way. However, I don't actually think this is the end of the Whispers... I am also wondering about the "7 seconds" Sephy mentioned and asked Cloud what he was going to do...
either a future event where he'll have a window of 7 seconds to act and affect an outcome, or it relates to a crazy time-frame, a week, years?

by the way, where were the Whispers to wipe out Roche since he's not part of the OG or any of the other new additions for that matter?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Oh this is a perfect question. I have been wondering about what Red said at that time and completely forgot about it. I would say, there is no way Red actually can tell what it means and maybe Sephy did try to manipulate it that way. However, I don't actually think this is the end of the Whispers... I am also wondering about the "7 seconds" Sephy mentioned and asked Cloud what he was going to do...
To me it looked rather like Seph absorbed the Whispers once they were weakened enough?

May be that he used Avalanche for the purpose in part because he hates them, but also because -- as we've already seen -- they're too important to the order of events the Whispers are trying to preserve for Team Dementor to either let them die or just kill them outright. He knew Cloud and the others could probably succeed because the Whispers would keep trying to contain them rather than kill them.
 

pollenainne

Pro Adventurer
either a future event where he'll have a window of 7 seconds to act and affect an outcome, or it relates to a crazy time-frame, a week, years?

by the way, where were the Whispers to wipe out Roche since he's not part of the OG?
Oh I like this theory! Omg. Maybe it can allude to Cloud being able to change an outcome in a span of 7 seconds later on. I love this forum, because we are actually discussing instead of making assumptions.

But I think it sorta brings context to the expression Aerith has after seeing Zack, and her hesitation. Maybe she felt sadness, regret, or longing in not having done more to reach out to him? Dunno, but something that I just thought of.
But Aerith mentioned missing the steel sky. And from the start, it always seemed to me that for a girl with such a zest for life she was afraid of leaving Midgar. It was also touched upon during the rooftop scene. And when she was taken by Shinra she seemed resigned as if she knew she would not be able to escape her fate. She even warned Cloud not to fall in love with her after. I felt like, she knew that if she left Midgar, she would die. Maybe her expression is about her starting her own journey to death?
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
Oh I like this theory! Omg. Maybe it can allude to Cloud being able to change an outcome in a span of 7 seconds later on. I love this forum, because we are actually discussing instead of making assumptions.


But Aerith mentioned missing the steel sky. And from the start, it always seemed to me that for a girl with such a zest for life she was afraid of leaving Midgar. It was also touched upon during the rooftop scene. And when she was taken by Shinra she seemed resigned as if she knew she would not be able to escape her fate. She even warned Cloud not to fall in love with her after. I felt like, she knew that if she left Midgar, she would die. Maybe her expression is about her starting her own journey to death?
Its possible there'll be a QTE kind of scene where you'll have multiple outcomes depending of your choice inside the 7 seconds window.
 

MelodicEnigma

Pro Adventurer
But Aerith mentioned missing the steel sky. And from the start, it always seemed to me that for a girl with such a zest for life she was afraid of leaving Midgar. It was also touched upon during the rooftop scene. And when she was taken by Shinra she seemed resigned as if she knew she would not be able to escape her fate. She even warned Cloud not to fall in love with her after. I felt like, she knew that if she left Midgar, she would die. Maybe her expression is about her starting her own journey to death?

It's all correlated, actually. If one was to listen to her big speech on the moment on the bridge, the "steel sky", being the slums, is related to the life she had before all this, something adverse to the concept of going out into the "neverending sky" and facing "change". I don't know if it's about her knowing about her death, as much as it is her knowing that moving forward is going to be a daunting experience—this including, finding out truths that you either didn't just accept or have access to confirming.
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
To me it looked rather like Seph absorbed the Whispers once they were weakened enough?

May be that he used Avalanche for the purpose in part because he hates them, but also because -- as we've already seen -- they're too important to the order of events the Whispers are trying to preserve for Team Dementor to either let them die or just kill them outright. He knew Cloud and the others could probably succeed because the Whispers would keep trying to contain them rather than kill them.
during the final fight Seph directly summons the watchers, and when Cloud does the final strike, Seph turns to fog and you can see Whispers coming out of it, almost like they were projecting him.. I dont know
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Oh I like this theory! Omg. Maybe it can allude to Cloud being able to change an outcome in a span of 7 seconds later on. I love this forum, because we are actually discussing instead of making assumptions.


But Aerith mentioned missing the steel sky. And from the start, it always seemed to me that for a girl with such a zest for life she was afraid of leaving Midgar. It was also touched upon during the rooftop scene. And when she was taken by Shinra she seemed resigned as if she knew she would not be able to escape her fate. She even warned Cloud not to fall in love with her after. I felt like, she knew that if she left Midgar, she would die. Maybe her expression is about her starting her own journey to death?

That's a reference to Crisis Core. She's prefers the "steel sky" of Midgar, because the wide open sky frightens her with it's endlessly open possibilities. It's so vast and open, it's as if it's swallowing her up. She's afraid of going outside of what she's familiar with, yet also intrigued and wanting to know what exactly lies beyond. So no, I don't think that's a reference to her knowing her death at all. It's a reference and consistency in her characterization from Crisis Core.

The warning about falling in love with her is obviously a reference to her wishing Cloud not to put himself in harm's way over her.
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
I think its her being aprehensive. She took action but the end result was not something she thought it was going to be. Her questions didnt got answered, and as a matter of fact....she has even more questions now. She saw her lover in what appears to be his last moments, and she is leaving everything she ever cared about in Midgar in order to fight something she doesnt really know. I actually thought it was a very good moment out of a not so great ending.
 

pollenainne

Pro Adventurer
It's all correlated, actually. If one was to listen to her big speech on the moment on the bridge, the "steel sky", being the slums, is related to the life she had before all this, something adverse to the concept of going out into the "neverending sky" and facing "change". I don't know if it's about her knowing about her death, as much as it is her knowing that moving forward is going to be a daunting experience—this including, finding out truths that you either didn't just accept or have access to confirming.

That's a reference to Crisis Core. She's prefers the "steel sky" of Midgar, because the wide open sky frightens her with it's endlessly open possibilities. It's so vast and open, it's as if it's swallowing her up. She's afraid of going outside of what she's familiar with, yet also intrigued and wanting to know what exactly lies beyond. So no, I don't think that's a reference to her knowing her death at all. It's a reference and consistency in her characterization from Crisis Core.

The warning about falling in love with her is obviously a reference to her wishing Cloud not to put himself in harm's way over her.

You guys have a point. I don't remember much of CC anymore, I love Zack but not much of a fan of the other FF7 stories except the original. They just make my head ache.

The only reason I was thinking that she knew she was going to die was because she seem to know more about the future than she lets on. She knew the plate would fall but said "I want to know I know I did my best" or something like that. Seems like she knows she cannot change a lot of things but still doesn't want to stop at trying. She was evasive when Cloud mentioned that he thinks Sephy was alive too.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
.... Sweet Lord, I never even made that connection.

And Sephiroth and Aerith exist on the same pole, just at opposite ends.

I wonder.... I don't know. But it does leave one to think about that now. Hmm... Donno if she would have active, conscious awareness but, who knows... That'd be an interesting development.
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
I dont necessarily think Aeris sensing Zack was literal though, i see as just meaning to be symbolic, she sensed something important happened in that place.
 

pollenainne

Pro Adventurer
I think its her being aprehensive. She took action but the end result was not something she thought it was going to be. Her questions didnt got answered, and as a matter of fact....she has even more questions now. She saw her lover in what appears to be his last moments, and she is leaving everything she ever cared about in Midgar in order to fight something she doesnt really know. I actually thought it was a very good moment out of a not so great ending.
Did she actually see him? I always felt that it was just a feeling. It was only us who saw the past and present collide but Aerith merely felt something... or something like that...
 
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Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
It just occurred to me that if there was the Whispers, and people in the present/future effecting the past/present and all this talk of people being Fated to do things in a certain way in a FFVIII Remake I would totally be on board with it. Too bad the story of FFVIII is regarded as being rather confusing due to all the time-travel shenanigans...

But like seriously... picture all the Whisper stuff showing up when Ultimacia's messing around with Seifer and Galbadia. Or when Ellone is sends Squall and Co. back into Laguna and Co.'s minds in the past. Ultimacia dropping visions of futures yet to happen on Squall and Co. would fit right in.

Actually... assuming the new stuff as the story of FFVII cannibalizing ideas from FFVIII's story would go a long way to explain stuff... And Sephrioth's goald does remind me of Ultimacia's. You've pretty much got both of them knowing how history is "supposed to go" and trying to effect history so that it turns out the way they want it too. While manipulating the main party the whole time.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
It also may be indicative of Aerith interpreting what the Planet is communicating to her. Since the Planet can likely tell bad/weird things are afoot Aerith probably has some notion of that as well. Especially since during parts of the climax Aerith refers to Sephiroth’s very existence as “wrong” like he’s some aberration against nature itself.
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
Yes, perhaps you are right. But still, it probably was a feeling that made her consider what she has chosen, so she misses the steel sky.

Right now, my questions are really centered in the next installments, which may have been their focus since the beggining. Does this Sephiroth-time-conundrum will become the decisive mystery that the next parts will explain? Was this ending, such change from the original, just something to "meta-explain" that the next parts will be "different but similar", or will that be the new focus of FFVIIR project? It just seems odd to fight Sephiroth trying to summon Meteor when he just did some crazier stuff in the first part.
 
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