SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Arianna]

O.O

Well, this angers me.

Not saying I'm giving up on it.

I just think doing time travel and all that needlessly complicates things.

Maybe Sephiroth learned about alternate dimensions, and the 'Original Sephiroth' is trying to accomplish his goal through an alternate timeline?

 

[Theozilla]

I don't think Sephiroth is the one doing the time travel. He's somehow likely getting knowledge of time-wimey stuff, but I don't think Sephiroth is actually a time traveler in the Remake.

 

[Pizzachu]

Arianna, you're always so sweet and calm that seeing the previous posts reminds me of this:

Not saying that you can't be angry, it's just unexpected to see you like this.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Only because you're again assuming certain rules that we shouldn't be assuming. For all we know, some form of Time Traveler's Immunity applies here, so being inside the singularity protected Cloud and co. from any changes (has been done in science fiction).

.... I see you're really taking this seriously. Damn. Totally forgot about that paradox. But then why would they even include such a paradox?

Or because the Whispers' dome apparently existed simultaneously across Zack's present relative to him and Avalanche's present relative to them, there were no changes incurred in the "real present," creating a paradoxical fusion of histories (also has been done in sci-fi).

...So now this is the Outer Limits?

Lol, I mean.

See, any psuedo-scientific excuse full of mumbo jumbo can be used to excuse whatever plot the writers want. I grew up on Marvel and DC comics as my bread and butter; this shit doesn't phase me at all.

...Yes. I see your point in this.

But surely there is some sort of consistency or deliberation one can make in terms of this. Something that guides the direction of how this temporal causality plays out.

We see these Whispers emerge from the future in order to correct instances of divergent activity that may disrupt continuity.

Sephiroth has seemingly gained some knowledge from the future in an attempt to change the present through manipulating the past.

They battle in a space where past and future are viewable.

The battle is won, the heroes emerge and for all intents and purposes the story continues along its charted direction.

Aside from the inconceivable or improbable plot-twist that could easily be sprung, where lies the unexplainable?

As much as critics derisively compare this to Kingdom Hearts, Kingdom Hearts' rules for time travel were solid and clear to understand. Paradoxes were impossible, time travel was fixed in the scope one could do it, and it required losing one's body. Another example is VIII, with clear rules and fixed consistency.

But my main intended takeaway here is to knock it off with the "against all evidence" comments, loaded (and ironic) uses of "assume," and the laying-on of ellipses.

This ending was obviously intended to make the suggestion of various possible plot directions going forward. No one is being illogical for following one trail of these deliberate breadcrumbs as opposed to another.

So we're just of differing opinions of how many possible plot directions they may go. Okay. I hadn't thought of those massive potentialities of paradoxical explanation. That seems so heavily convoluted however. If those could happen why would Sephiroth perceive this scheme worth endeavoring?

Apparently you're looking at this from a minimum to maximum level of potential here. I hadn't thought of them going so hard with paradoxes to explain any inconsistencies here. That would be... Weird as fuck. This essentially becomes a paradox story and I doubt they'd just work the entire Remake saga of VII from that angle.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Part of the problem with time-travel plots is how it's easy to lead to "versions" of characters not feeling "real". Like... if it turns out that a certain "branch" of a time-line isn't real, then how much should the audience be expected to care about the characters of that branch. I don't know who in FFVIIR I'm supposed to care about right now. I don't want to say that the game feels like a " how much can we dick around with the fandom" vehicle for the devs right now, but it kinda does.

Obviously, the game expects me to care about the Main Characters. And then it proceeds to show me visions of them dying that somehow "didn't happen" because some outside force prevented it. Or caused it. Or maybe will cause it in the future. Just... I've had a very hard time connecting with characters in the more recent FF games. In part because the games are too obvious with the death flags. And now this game has... death flags everywhere for everyone. Only... some are real. Some I know aren't. It makes it feel like these are characters the creators of the game aren't interested in for their own sake, but for the sake of seeing how much they can bait the fanbase with.

And I don't like being so overtly manipulated into feeling bad/sorry for characters.

 

[Arianna]

My head's starting to hurt...

Is it possible the reason all this happens is somehow tied to Zack? Maybe that explains the dome over Midgar?

I am desperately trying to make sense of what I am reading...

 

[Theozilla]

My head's starting to hurt...

Is it possible the reason all this happens is somehow tied to Zack? Maybe that explains the dome over Midgar?

I am desperately trying to make sense of what I am reading...

The dome over Midgar is some space-time singularity presumably caused by Sephiroth and/or the Whisper Harbinger (the second to last boss), so it's occurring in the past and present (and presumably the future) simultaneously. It's basically the arena/area where the last game's last two boss fights occur, probably largely so they can justify having the all the homages to the OG's final battle (and buildings thrown around in AC/C).

Oh here's a better quality version of the ending (from defeat of the Final Boss battle to the end credit start, and according to RPG Site's FAQ, even after beating the game on Hard mode, there's no bonus/secret ending scenes)

 

[Arianna]

From seeing the ending, all I can say is Sephiroth is definitely up to something, and its affecting everyone and (almost) everything.

 

[Pizzachu]

I've come across some fun discussion about if Aerith is actually from the future:

Spoiler: A lot of text, so I'm putting it under here

"So did anyone consider that Aerith is from the future?
AC established that Aerith can do what Sephiroth can do. Sephiroth created avatars to interact with Cloud in AC (Kadaj and so on) and in Case of Lifestream, Aerith said she can do that too but chose not to.
If Sephiroth really came from the future it's possible Aerith went back too. So her consciousness is in the past Alt timeline Aerith's consciousness. But then she'd know that the Time Janitors are there to keep everything the same. So she's not really any better than Sephiroth - she also wants a second chance. Except she wants a second chance at a happy ending even if it means the planet might not survive this new timeline....
I'm saying this because of the scene Aerith picks up Marlene from the bar. Marlene seems to have some kind of vision and Aerith puts her finger to her lips to say 'don't say anything'. Like don't spill the beans. So she definitely knows what her fate will be and she's willing to risk the planet's eventual happy ending so she can have a chance to live again..." -- ShawnandAngela

"As someone who has read the script I’ve been thinking this theory for months and just waiting for someone else to bring it up. Yes, I 100% believe the Aerith we see in the remake is one who has chased/followed Sephiroth from the future and is there to stop him in every sense of the word.
There are other scenes that imply it, too. Like, when Aerith asks Cloud to be her bodyguard she says something like, “It’s not too different from being a mercenary.” Except.... he didn’t say a word about being a mercenary. She realizes she’s slipped up and goes, “uh... I guessed! From the sword!” There’s another moment where Cloud tells her to stop acting like she knows him but.... my theory is: she DOES know him!!
There’s other hints too. Lots of them.
Edit: my only thing is—I don’t think she’s there to get a happy ending. I think she’s fully prepared to die again." -- Ribunn

"I feel her looking for a second chance at happiness would be inconsistent with the part where she says Cloud can't fall in love with her. Too much uncertainty at this stage to be sure I guess, but interesting theory nonetheless.
Also LOL at Time Janitors" -- Calaroth

"I actually do believe Aerith is from the future and she’s Sephiroth’s foil. I don’t believe she is doing this for a second chance. There’s a scene, when after they fall into the sewers, Tifa says she can’t believe they would ever really drop the plate but if it will happen they need to stop them. Aerith hesitates, as if she knows they cannot stop that from happening because things need to play out as they should in order for Sephiroth to lose this battle. Tifa immediately picks up on the fact that Aerith is hiding something and says, 'Aerith... what aren’t you telling me?'" -- Ribunn

 

[rkss]

Anyone has Japanese version of this scene? I remembered Sephiroth said something like "future is up to you Cloud" in this scene, couldn't hear the rest because the audio was bad.
I don't think it'll change anything but if we're trying to understand this scene, any piece of information is useful.

 

[Firstone33]

I've come across some fun discussion about if Aerith is actually from the future:

Spoiler: A lot of text, so I'm putting it under here

"So did anyone consider that Aerith is from the future?
AC established that Aerith can do what Sephiroth can do. Sephiroth created avatars to interact with Cloud in AC (Kadaj and so on) and in Case of Lifestream, Aerith said she can do that too but chose not to.
If Sephiroth really came from the future it's possible Aerith went back too. So her consciousness is in the past Alt timeline Aerith's consciousness. But then she'd know that the Time Janitors are there to keep everything the same. So she's not really any better than Sephiroth - she also wants a second chance. Except she wants a second chance at a happy ending even if it means the planet might not survive this new timeline....
I'm saying this because of the scene Aerith picks up Marlene from the bar. Marlene seems to have some kind of vision and Aerith puts her finger to her lips to say 'don't say anything'. Like don't spill the beans. So she definitely knows what her fate will be and she's willing to risk the planet's eventual happy ending so she can have a chance to live again..." -- ShawnandAngela

"As someone who has read the script I’ve been thinking this theory for months and just waiting for someone else to bring it up. Yes, I 100% believe the Aerith we see in the remake is one who has chased/followed Sephiroth from the future and is there to stop him in every sense of the word.
There are other scenes that imply it, too. Like, when Aerith asks Cloud to be her bodyguard she says something like, “It’s not too different from being a mercenary.” Except.... he didn’t say a word about being a mercenary. She realizes she’s slipped up and goes, “uh... I guessed! From the sword!” There’s another moment where Cloud tells her to stop acting like she knows him but.... my theory is: she DOES know him!!
There’s other hints too. Lots of them.
Edit: my only thing is—I don’t think she’s there to get a happy ending. I think she’s fully prepared to die again." -- Ribunn

"I feel her looking for a second chance at happiness would be inconsistent with the part where she says Cloud can't fall in love with her. Too much uncertainty at this stage to be sure I guess, but interesting theory nonetheless.
Also LOL at Time Janitors" -- Calaroth

"I actually do believe Aerith is from the future and she’s Sephiroth’s foil. I don’t believe she is doing this for a second chance. There’s a scene, when after they fall into the sewers, Tifa says she can’t believe they would ever really drop the plate but if it will happen they need to stop them. Aerith hesitates, as if she knows they cannot stop that from happening because things need to play out as they should in order for Sephiroth to lose this battle. Tifa immediately picks up on the fact that Aerith is hiding something and says, 'Aerith... what aren’t you telling me?'" -- Ribunn

Oh man if only that were true but square made it pretty clear that remake is just a reimagining of ffvii with same plot but scenes played out or expanded and altered to give fans a more cinematic like quality the reason I believe aerith knew cloud was a mercenary was cause of how he acted and likely cause soldier don't fight against their own company and have two shoulder pauldrons not one.

Of course I am just being speculative and could be wrong I been before but I feel remake is just that a remake and nothing more no disrespect cause I love crazy theories like yours as much as the rest

 

[Pizzachu]

I wish I was that creative to come up with unique theories. But, yes, I think it's unlikely, but it's still fun to think about.

 

[Theozilla]

Yeah neither Aerith or Sephiroth in the Remake are the future versions of their minds traveled back in a la X-Men: Days of Future Past.

From the same source I posted earlier, here are the cutscenes right before the boss battle with the Whisper Harbinger starts and right after it ends (i.e. before the final boss fight with Sephiroth starts). This sorta clears some things up, as I think basically Sephiroth's "saving/caring about the Planet" is just his egomaniacal way of indirectly exposing his intent to become a god like being through the Lifestream. Also it seems like the Whispers are also related to the memory of the Planet as well as space and time. Also the final arena for the last two boss fights is literally titled "Singularity". Interestingly, the AC/C vision of Red XIII and his cubs is not in this cutscene sequence either, wonder when it occurs?

 

[pollenainne]

Things like that, a long with this whole thread, is what makes me believe they're pretty happy right now. lol Whether people agree or not, someone walking away frustrated but wanting more/answers is a sadistic dream of some writers. I can relate, ever so slightly.

Hahaha! I can 100% relate! Which is why I'm still not believing all this AU-Timetravel thingy. It is fun to discuss though. I love reading everyone's thoughts on it.

 

[clowd]

So Sephiroth is now an interdimensional, portal jumping demigod

Honestly the ending makes me more excited for future parts. We can now have Endgame level speculation about who lives or dies in future games. Nobody can now say for certain Aerith will die. Nobody can now say for certain anything will happen. Sephiroth could even get killed and end up not being the final villain. This has made me so much more hyped for future installments.

Out of fear of reprisal from the fanbase I bet future games will still stick pretty close to the OG, but I hope they get the guts to make it a pretty fresh experience. Maybe make it 75% new, with new characters, twists, turns, etc. Heck even let Zack join the party! I honestly think it would make for a funner, more exciting ride then a simple expanded remake.

The OG will always be there to revisit and experience.

But this...this gives Square the chance to make a mostly fresh game in the Final Fantasy 7 universe. Im onboard! Imagine crossing the ocean after Junon and not being entirely sure where the story will go. We could experience more then just nostalgia. Remember wanting to have your memory wiped of the game so you could play it again for the first time and not know what happens? This is something of a possibility now. And Im super pumped for it.

Spoiler

Just no Genesis please

 

[Firstone33]

Yeah neither Aerith or Sephiroth in the Remake are the future versions of their minds traveled back in a la X-Men: Days of Future Past.

From the same source I posted earlier, here are the cutscenes right before the boss battle with the Whisper Harbinger starts and right after it ends (i.e. before the final boss fight with Sephiroth starts). This sorta clears some things up, as I think basically Sephiroth's "saving/caring about the Planet" is just his egomaniacal way of indirectly exposing his intent to become a god like being through the Lifestream. Also it seems like the Whispers are also related to the memory of the Planet as well as space and time. Also the final arena for the last two boss fights is literally titled "Singularity". Interestingly, the AC/C vision of Red XIII and his cubs is not in this cutscene sequence either, wonder when it occurs?

That is the point I think square is making, they are having sephiroth appear more than in original as a way to show just how big a threat he is without actually revealing he is until the very end of game, in original he was a threat but we barely were even given hints of seen him but in remake his multiple appearances in midgar hints on what basically is gonna happen in next part like here I am! Try stopping me kind of talk.

Plus it's sephiroth mind raping cloud is just what we know him for since original lol he wouldn't be Sephiroth without some mind fuckery lol

 

[Pizzachu]

Spoiler

But nothing shall forestall his return! *Evil laughter*

 

[oty]

I mean, I love these forums, but I attempted multiple conversations with a lot of people outside of here and most of them just went completely sour. I still think this is one of the most polarising things SE couls have done, but here everyone is rational and doesnt automatically calls Nomura a son of a b*tch or that SE is done, citing KH3, FFXIII and XV.

 

[Pizzachu]

I saw your posts on the FFVIIRemake subreddit. You were trying so hard to keep decorum, but people weren't having it.

 

[Noble0ne]

Then that would mean Cloud wouldn't be Cloud anymore. He would no longer carry that Buster Sword, call himself a SOLDIER, be in pursuit of Sephiroth... That would all be gone.

Aerith would be with Zack and happy. She would not be left ignorant of his fate.

Is that what we saw happen here? No, they're still in pursuit of Sephiroth.

This is late I know.

Someone already said there is many ways they can have Zack alive and work around your cause effect construction.

you asked how so here a ramble,

Nobody at this point Knows for certain what happened after them showing us Zack walking towards Midgar. Maybe he takes two more steps, They just happened not to show them. and then he dies.

Or maybe he will have a chat with the wispers and knows he can't go back to Aerith yet.

Or maybe...

This Zack might have given Cloud his sword at Midgar edge, knowing he is on the brink of death. then he proceeded to enter a Vincent style Coffen hyperbolic chamber to heal himself, like the ones that spooked Sephiroth to begin within the OG. You know, the ones that turned soldiers into monsters where sephiroth deduced this is how he was made. Except Zack tweaks the setting so it's just healing juice & no mako. And this place is located in some underground place that is unkown. Like the unknown place, Wedge ended up in after plate fall in this go around... Some quirky place like that Shinra built and abandoned that nobody will go to. & Zack just happens to know about this place because a new random history tidbit.

Heck, nobody found Vincent in Shinra manner till cloud and gang came back. And that place wasn't even hidden. So maybe Zack is just sleeping in an unhidden room, needing a defrost, & nobody has thought to go find him.

If so, then Aeris still would not be with Zack, & cloud still would have got gifted Zacks sword. And they still would be after sephiroth in a quest that might add zack to your party later

Honestly Zack and cloud we're both thought to be dead when hojo first experimented on them. So it's not like there no concept of someone thought to be dead before but they are just missing.

Biggs is clearly 100% alive this go around, and the Squad doesn't know. So yeah maybe Aeris getting a vision is her being the only one to know Zack could be alive... Because she did not see him die.

she has powers to sense people die that she is not even close to. She told her mama her husband was dead when she was a kid, and was right about it.

Until Aerith says, "I know Zack is dead" why wait for him... She set up to be zacks girl still. Not only does she directly let us know the first man she loved is Zack, She tells cloud directly... Do Not Fall in love with Me. She gets a sense of clouds feels, & friend zones him over a Lifsteam-textmessage. (I get it's more likely a plot contained worry idea of, Dont get hurt just for me)

I Don't think this is what happened because they didn't show us this. But I do believe they have warmed us up to the possibility for them to do something drastic like this. And I think they are ready to pull the drastic trigger in part 2.

 

[Firstone33]

It's official we all have gone sephiroth mad!

 

[Kratos]

I mean, I love these forums, but I attempted multiple conversations with a lot of people outside of here and most of them just went completely sour. I still think this is one of the most polarising things SE couls have done, but here everyone is rational and doesnt automatically calls Nomura a son of a b*tch or that SE is done, citing KH3, FFXIII and XV.

This place really is a haven of rationality. I've actually directed a couple friends who didn't care about spoilers and wanted to see what all the fuss is about to this specific thread, because literally everywhere else is in total hysterics and involves very little rationalizing or real discussion. It's like they want the most ridiculous possible interpretation to be true, just to say "I told you so!" about Square/Nomura/whoever.

 

[oty]

I saw your posts on the FFVIIRemake subreddit. You were trying so hard to keep decorum, but people weren't having it.

yea lmao not my proudest moment. I was actually a bit of a fanboy right there ngl, but alas, my mind was gonna break more times than Genesis mentioned Loveless in CC so I just...gave up. And I'm not going to do the same with the Spoiler Megathread that just opened up in the FF subreddit. Please...I cant take much more.

This place, however, is a much needed breath of fresh air of rationality and, well, just plain education lol

 

[Wol]

at this point, we should see FFVIIR simply as a different version of the FFVII legend.

just like in the comics, each character has its own subseries, arcs, reboots, crossovers..

this isnt an alternate timeline, but a different interpretation of vision of what is FFVII, trying to frame this as a semi-sequel to the original will only cause more drama.

 

[Noble0ne]

It should have been called Final Fantasy VII: a Reinterpretation