SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Elisa Maza]

Zack might have lived, Cloud, Tifa and Barret might be Whisperes (aka dead), Aerith loses something from herself every time they touch her... This is nuts and SO uneeded.

I'm starting to think that the whole Remake is the Planet's memory that Sephiroth's spirit has invaded, wanting to change to reach the beginning of creation, in order to forge a path where he wins. Cloud and co, now dead, followed him with Aerith's help and tried to fix it in order to keep the Planet alive, but Remake Cloud and co were fooled to kill them off/dissolve them.

 

[Wol]

Zack might have lived, Cloud, Tifa and Barret might be Whisperes (aka dead), Aerith loses something from herself every time they touch her... This is nuts and SO uneeded.

I'm starting to think that the whole Remake is the Planet's memory that Sephiroth's spirit has invaded, wanting to change to reach the beginning of creation, in order to forge a path where he wins. Cloud and co, now dead, followed him with Aerith's help and tried to fix it in order to keep the Planet alive, but Remake Cloud and co were fooled to kill them off/dissolve them.

and to make things worse, the delivery was rushed and poorly executed, they went from 20% to 100% of insanity real fast at the last chapter.

tbh regardless of how things go, those Whispers felt like fanfiction in a lame kind of way (it doesnt help that they look like goofy dark sperms)

the point is that if this an alternate timeline it doesnt feel like the real deal anymore.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Regarding the Whispers of Fate and Sephiroth, from what you guys described and that video that Theozilla posted, my take is that the Whispers were working against him up until being defeated by Cloud and Co. After that, Sephiroth absorbed them onto him and bend them to his will.

That's why he used against the party during the final fight.

 

[rkss]

A DLC chapter would be fine but please no, don't bring back Zack.
I really like Zack as protagonist and do agree he's a much better character to carry a game but Zack has to die for Cloud to grow.

This is final fantasy 7, it's not Aerith Fantasy or Zack Fairtasy.

 

[pollenainne]

I really do think the Zack thing was just a homage. It was very sweet though. I'm not one to place Zack in every corner of the FF7 orignal story but I really loved that scene. It felt like a passing of a "Journey" from Zack to Aerith. It's a fulfillment of Zack trying to save Cloud that he is now alive and well. But Cloud does not remember him, and it is Aerith who honors his memory. It is a feeling that Zack did something right by saving Cloud. I don't think there is only one way to read it. It is just wonderful regardless.

As for the Whispers... that is really something. Maybe it has something to do with what Aerith said, about being able to change themselves. That these Whispers are what ancors them to a certain fate but by defeating them, they are able to set themselves free. Which is ironic, because Aerith doesn't have one, when she is the one that needs to break free the most (not story-wise but character-wise). Is that confirmation that she cannot break free of her Fate and has to die?

 

[Wol]

not convinced that Zack story wasnt changed yet, whats the point of showing glimpses of his past events during the final act? Because it affected it...

 

[oty]

I completely believe that Zack is dead. That whole ending segment is of a...sad one. If Zack lived, it would have to be more "happy", right?

 

[pollenainne]

not convinced that Zack story wasnt changed yet, whats the point of showing glimpses of his past events during the final act? Because it affected it...

The show of his past events is to see everything he went through... but in the end he managed to bring Cloud back to Midgar. That was his purpose to the FF7 storyline. Also the fact that this time around they are more open about Zack, probably expecting people to be spoiled about it already so what the heck. CC was also quite popular to people who didnt even play the OG. I mean Sephy very early on tells Cloud he isn't himself.

The only thing really that makes me think there was any meaning into any of the Zack scenes (besides the obvious emotional impact) is that Stamp thingy... I mean why did that thing flash into our screen. I wonder if it really had any significance or they are just toying with us. Ugh!

 

[Kratos]

The show of his past events is to see everything he went through... but in the end he managed to bring Cloud back to Midgar. That was his purpose to the FF7 storyline. Also the fact that this time around they are more open about Zack, probably expecting people to be spoiled about it already so what the heck. CC was also quite popular to people who didnt even play the OG. I mean Sephy very early on tells Cloud he isn't himself.

The only thing really that makes me think there was any meaning into any of the Zack scenes (besides the obvious emotional impact) is that Stamp thingy... I mean why did that thing flash into our screen. I wonder if it really had any significance or they are just toying with us. Ugh!

I mentioned this earlier, but I think the Stamp thing is a cute tease to Zack being the original “Stamp” (aka Cloud, who is a character always being associated with Stamp by Barrett), without being too obvious about it.

 

[Wol]

The show of his past events is to see everything he went through... but in the end he managed to bring Cloud back to Midgar. That was his purpose to the FF7 storyline. Also the fact that this time around they are more open about Zack, probably expecting people to be spoiled about it already so what the heck. CC was also quite popular to people who didnt even play the OG. I mean Sephy very early on tells Cloud he isn't himself.

The only thing really that makes me think there was any meaning into any of the Zack scenes (besides the obvious emotional impact) is that Stamp thingy... I mean why did that thing flash into our screen. I wonder if it really had any significance or they are just toying with us. Ugh!

yeah but what was the context or significance of showing those scenes during the mess happening in the final events, two times no less?

 

[Eerie]

Honestly, narratively speaking I think it's nice and it may be what the writers were after; because you see Cloud who's pretty much a mop at this point being brought back by Zack - who very much wanted to come back to Midgard to see Aerith - and then Aerith who feared leaving Midgard and waited for Zack for 5 years with Cloud pretty much in shape with friends etc. It shows how much Cloud has grown, gives Aerith a hint about what happened and if she wants to know more then Cloud is the key, etc.

It ties things very neatly, me think.

 

[Kratos]

yeah but what was the context or significance of showing those scenes during the mess happening in the final events, two times no less?

Sephiroth is showing certain characters certain events not just from the future, but from the past as well. The implication seems to be that he has told Aerith that Cloud at the very least knew Zack. The impact of that remains to be seen.

Beyond that, we don't know much more because the game ends shortly after. It's probably supposed to be a cliffhangar - we're meant to be left wondering what it all means and what the purpose of it all is.

 

[Makoeyes987]

not convinced that Zack story wasnt changed yet, whats the point of showing glimpses of his past events during the final act? Because it affected it...

... Because that was the target of Sephiroth?

Of course we would see it, that was the end goal of the final battle.

Are you wanting to believe it was changed? All we saw was a hopeful Zack, marching onward to Midgar.

Unless someone is hoping against hope for Zack to be alive against all evidence... I see no reason to assume a leap of such monumental conclusion. No mention of an alternate timeline is mentioned. Cloud emerges as Cloud with the Buster Sword and Aerith does not look like someone who believes Zack is alive.

If such a monumental and catastrophic change occured there would be an implication as such (since Sephiroth would essentially have won) and FFVII wouldn't be stated as continuing. It would essentially be a new spin off game series. Before we assume such a huge conclusion, let's move within the framework of what's shown first.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

... Because that was the target of Sephiroth?

Of course we would see it, that was the end goal of the final battle.

Are you wanting to believe it was changed? All we saw was a hopeful Zack, marching onward to Midgar.

Unless someone is hoping against hope for Zack to be alive against all evidence... I see no reason to assume a leap of such monumental conclusion.

It isn't against all evidence, though. I pointed out last night that the original event has been inarguably changed -- the evidence of that being that Zack is still fine when the rain begins, and that he was seemingly healed from his last battle by the same gold "snow" that appears to have healed Biggs.

Now, the existence of this evidence does not definitively mean he didn't end up dead anyway two minutes later, but you need to stop acting like someone would have to be a fucking moron to take what was shoved in their face at face value. =P

No mention of an alternate timeline is mentioned.

There's no explanation given for anything Sephiroth is trying to do in the ending, so this isn't a relevant point. But let's also not pretend the words "timeline" and "present day" don't come up in the Whispers' data.

If such a monumental and catastrophic change occured there would be an implication as such ...

Plenty of reasonable people are inferring multiple implications to that effect. At present, no one who doesn't work for Square Enix knows for certain.

... (since Sephiroth would essentially have won) ...

Well, he doesn't act like someone who lost -- he seems quite pleased, in fact, both in the instant before Cloud's final blow in the real world and during their conversation/humiliation bout in the astral realm.

This would be one of those things folks are making reasonable inferences from.

Before we assume such a huge conclusion, let's move within the framework of what's shown first.

Yes, let's. =P Both before assuming big conclusions and shooting them down in definitive wording we can't reasonably place a claim to.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It isn't against all evidence, though. I pointed out last night that the original event has been inarguably changed -- the evidence of that being that Zack is still fine when the rain begins, and that he was seemingly healed from his last battle by the same gold "snow" that appears to have healed Biggs.

I should probably clarify that I meant "changed" in reference to fundamentally altering the inevitable conclusion Zack will face down. He saw the Whispers, and his walk to Midgar changed but nothing indicates that he doesn't meet his inevitable end. Yes, the depiction and stuff has been altered but we're not shown a fundamental, drastic 180 of Zack no longer meeting his end.

Now, the existence of this evidence does not definitively mean he didn't end up dead anyway two minutes later, but you need to stop acting like someone would have to be a fucking moron to take what was shoved in their face at face value. =P

Well here's the thing I'm going by. If we are to assume this time-travel scheme Sephiroth endeavored could have drastically altered the present to his aims, that would require that the consequences of the temporal meddling be manifested within the present. So any change in the past that would fundamentally alter the present, would be visible in the present. Because Sephiroth, as he showed to Cloud, and fought him over, wanted to fundamentally change what would happen in reality. Destiny's crossroads. "Let us defy destiny" etc etc.

If something such Zack living were to happen, Cloud couldn't come back and be the same person. That Buster Sword couldn't be on his back, and Aerith would carry a very different expression, than she did. I think those are highly significant details that speak to the situation.

There's no explanation given for anything Sephiroth is trying to do in the ending, so this isn't a relevant point. But let's also not pretend the words "timeline" and "present day" don't come up in the Whispers' data.

That's what I'm referring to, actually. The Whispers came from the future to protect it. Presumably from Sephiroth.

Well, he doesn't act like someone who lost -- he seems quite pleased, in fact, both in the instant before Cloud's final blow in the real world and during their conversation/humiliation bout in the astral realm.

This would be one of those things folks are making reasonable inferences from.

Sephiroth hardly ever acts like someone who lost, to be fair. It takes a lot to ever make him crack his stoic poise.

However, what I'm referring to is...We don't see the vision of his intended "destiny" was, made manifest in reality. The whole crowd of people running in fear, dying, Meteorfall, etc. None of that comes to past; Cloud remains, and the progression of FFVII is allowed to happen.

If we're to assume, as Sephiroth clearly dictates to us, he wanted to change the present, defy destiny, and the stakes of that fight in that temporal space were as stated... If the past had been altered, we would be aware of it in a huge way. Especially in reference to Zack.

 

[Wol]

Totally agree with Twilight.

Another thought: maybe there isnt another timeline or parallel univetse, but only one that gets rewritten.

If changing events simply created another timeline / universe, the Watchers wouldnt need to "protect the future that gave shape to them", because they would still be able to exist in theory.

 

[Theozilla]

I just went back and checked the 12 minute ending again, and I really don't see Zack being healed by the gold dust from the Whisper explosion. All of his wounds are still there at the beginning and end of the scene. The only thing one could argue the gold dust does to Biggs is wake him up, non of his are shown healing.
The very last Zack flashback before the credits start just show Zack less dirty because the rain has started to wash off some of the dirt and grime on his face, but he definitely wasn't healed or anything.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Totally agree with Twilight.

Another thought: maybe there isnt another timeline or parallel univetse, but only one that gets rewritten.

If changing events simply created another timeline / universe, the Watchers wouldnt need to "protect the future that gave shape to them", because they would still be able to exist in theory.

DING DING DING!! Exactly!!

That's what I've been saying.

The entire point of the conflict that existed within the Remake between Sephiroth, the Watchers, and the heroes, is over the present manifestation of the timeline.

If any change would just create an alternate timeline that branched from the changed point in time, there would be no reason for the Whispers to act to guard their future, and Sephiroth would gain nothing from trying to change the past. He would do nothing.

It would be the DBZ Future Trunks arc all over again. Trunks hoped going back in time to save Goku, and deactivate the androids would avoid his terrible present... And he discovered that it did nothing because he merely created a new future that branched off from the change in time he made. In DBZ you can't change the future unless you're an Angel who can immediately rewind time to a precise point and then move forward again.

Anyways, WoL succinctly made my point as well.

If Zack were alive, Cloud would not be "Cloud" anymore. And he certainly wouldn't be in the current appearance we see him as in FFVII. Aerith would certainly be different as well.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

One thing that gets to me is how out of character Sephrioth is in his final monologue with Cloud. Not wanting Cloud to end? Asking Cloud to join him? And since when has Sephrioth cared about destiny anyway? It feels like Sephrioth's characterization did a 180 out of nowhere.

 

[Makoeyes987]

...What puppetmaster would not want his puppet to join him?

And if someone was brutally killed by an attack that came out of nowhere, and they had a chance to send their memories to their past self to avoid being wrecked, they would probably care about destiny if they didn't before

 

[billy22]

If something such Zack living were to happen, Cloud couldn't come back and be the same person. That Buster Sword couldn't be on his back, and Aerith would carry a very different expression, than she did. I think those are highly significant details that speak to the situation.

There are a multitude of ways to explain this away, when you implement visions from the future and ghosts of fate into your story. Which is a large part of why I detest those tropes.

Not saying I think Zack is still alive. I took the scene as more metaphorical than anything, but it's definitely possible.

 

[Makoeyes987]

There are a multitude of ways to explain this away, when you implement visions from the future and ghosts of fate into your story. Which is a large part of why I detest those tropes.

Not saying I think Zack is still alive. I took the scene as more metaphorical than anything, but it's definitely possible.

So how do you explain it away if we're operating under the framework that a change in the past, creates a direct change in the present and future?

If we're to believe that the Arbiters of Fate are purposefully moving to protect their "destiny that created them" and Sephiroth is attempting change the past to create the destiny he wishes to obtain, how would it be possible for Zack to live, Cloud to be he who he is, and Aerith to look melancholy and distressed upon seeing what happened to him?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well here's the thing I'm going by. If we are to assume this time-travel scheme Sephiroth endeavored could have drastically altered the present to his aims, that would require that the consequences of the temporal meddling be manifested within the present. So any change in the past that would fundamentally alter the present, would be visible in the present. Because Sephiroth, as he showed to Cloud, and fought him over, wanted to fundamentally change what would happen in reality. Destiny's crossroads. "Let us defy destiny" etc etc.

If something such Zack living were to happen, Cloud couldn't come back and be the same person. That Buster Sword couldn't be on his back, and Aerith would carry a very different expression, than she did. I think those are highly significant details that speak to the situation.

We don't know which rules of sci-fi time travel theory they're applying to this story yet, so you can't be certain of that at all. Just look at the "Chrono Trigger" series for the application of several different, deliberately contradictory "rules" and possibilities within the same story threads.

Ultimately, they'll tell whatever story they want and make up the rules to justify it afterwards.

Sephiroth hardly ever acts like someone who lost, to be fair. It takes a lot to ever make him crack his stoic poise.

But when he loses, that poise does crack -- e.g. his expression when Cloud beat him in the original game's ending or when Cloud was about to land the final blow on him in AC. He very obviously communicated "Oh, fuck" on those occasions.

However, what I'm referring to is...We don't see the vision of his intended "destiny" was, made manifest in reality. The whole crowd of people running in fear, dying, Meteorfall, etc. None of that comes to past ...

Because they have more games to sell and they almost certainly won't end this series with the villain achieving a final victory. Even Caius in the XIII series achieved a victory that brought the universe to an end -- until there was a new one.

If we're to assume, as Sephiroth clearly dictates to us, he wanted to change the present, defy destiny, and the stakes of that fight in that temporal space were as stated... If the past had been altered, we would be aware of it in a huge way. Especially in reference to Zack.

And plenty of folks think this is huge. And I'm sure Nomura wants us to wonder how big it is, because that's what he does.

 

[Makoeyes987]

We don't know which rules of sci-fi time travel theory they're applying to this story yet, so you can't be certain of that at all. Just look at the "Chrono Trigger" series for the application of several different, deliberately contradictory "rules" and possibilities within the same story threads.

Ultimately, they'll tell whatever story they want and make up the rules to justify it afterwards.

But we do know the rule, at least the causality-consequence rule for it. Every character within the story's framework is operating under the belief that by changing X in the past, you get Y in the future. A direct cause-effect relationship. No mention or reference to alternate/branching timelines are mentioned, let alone believed. Because if they did think that, their actions would make no sense within the Remake; why protect your future in the past, if whatever change happens merely creates a new timeline? Why would Sephiroth believe he could bring about Meteor and the end by altering the past when it would merely create a new timeline he wasn't apart of?

But when he loses, that poise does crack -- e.g. his expression when Cloud beat him in the original game's ending or when Cloud was about to land the final blow on him in AC. He very obviously communicated "Oh, fuck" on those occasions.

Yes, that was when confronted with death. But he wasn't confronted with death here. He was thwarted. And he still has another plan to fallback on. The one that involves summoning Meteor the good ole' fashioned way.

Because they have more games to sell and they almost certainly won't end this series with the villain achieving a final victory. Even Caius in the XIII series achieved a victory that brought the universe to an end -- until there was a new one.


And plenty of folks think this is huge. And I'm sure Nomura wants us to wonder how big it is, because that's what he does.

Final victory were the stakes here. If Sephiroth had his way, doomsday would have been "today" for them.

And yeah, this is what Nomura wanted. However, I think he's more wanting us to wonder what changes or new things can happen now that we see that the story of FFVII is free to go in directions we may not necessarily predict. However, going by their respect and desire to utilize their previous work, and lack of any mention of a branching off timeline, they're not going to essentially nullify what goes forward in FFVII and beyond. Zack suddenly being alive or Aerith surviving til the end, would just create an irreconcilable contradiction to what "FFVII" is.

 

[pollenainne]

I see it merely as a small possibility for people to grasp on (personally, I don't believe it). Thus, I completely disagree that "Zack is alive" is in any case the "face value" of the narrative presented. It's just a really huge "what if" scenario. Him being alive in the present is definitely unbelievable to me and I completely agree with Makoeyes987.

However, I do agree that if FF7R goes the alternate timeline route then maybe in some different timeline, there exist a Zack that didn't die. Not that such would impact anything unless he suddenly crosses timelines. OMG, I hope they do not go that route. But such, is also not a given. I think people have seen too much of AT stories these days that it suddenly becomes a logical conclusion right away (I did too at some point).

There is only one thing we are sure of and that is the existence of entities who can see past and future... but right now everything seems to be linear.