SPOILERS FFVII Remake Frustration Expression Thread (*Open Spoilers*)

[LNK]

"stealing the spot-light from the characters from the OG. "

I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing though. I didn't play Crisis Core, but I did watch someone's 4 hour "movie" of it on youtube. I'm not a hardcore fan of any particular characters, so I don't mind if he out shined anyone.

"He's also a character that I don't think really has a Western Character Archetype to fall back on either. Soldiers interested in artsy stuff isn't something normally seen in Western Literature. At least, not modern Western Literature."

That's part of why I like him. I think in our society, we pigeonhole each other (jocks, nerds, etc) that we don't really like when people are multifaceted because we aren't ourselves. I relate with Genesis in that aspect because I've played 3 sports since I was a kid. I also draw/paint, like poetry, classic cars, video games, etc. I could never fit into one category.

"And then there's the problem that he's about as destructive as Sephrioth when he finds out about being experimented on, but Crisis Core decides to redeem him anyway. Why and if that redemption should even happen can be a very hard pill to swallow for some people. "

I wonder why that is hard for some people. I mean, Star Wars did it with Anakin/Vader. They were good, went bad, and then turned back good.

"Personally, I like Genesis overall. He fixes one of my personal pet peeves with Sephrioth's backstory which is that Sephrioth was the only human-based Jenova experiment that was done (and that ended up having consequences for people). He brings some variety to the top-tier Soldier members and gives them so much needed flair"

"He's a great foil to Sephrioth's reaction to finding out all the same things and how Sephiroth ultimately cut himself off from anyone who wanted to help him."

I like that. It's good that they reacted differently to the horrible thing that happened to them. In my opinion, it reflects us in real life

 

[Jimmy XH]

I suppose this was always going to be the case, but this thread demonstrates that some of the changes in narrative are potentially going to be polarising. I hope that doesn’t detract from anyone’s individual experience with the game.

From my perspective, I’m pretty comfortable with what I’ve seen so far (I haven’t gone into the leaks besides watching the demo) and will judge each case on its merits. What’s clear though is that they’ll probably push the boundaries as much as they can. After all, they’ve got to build a whole game out of a fraction of the OG.

The only real reservation I have is how these Guardians of Fate (and other completely new elements) are going to be wound into the narrative.

Changes to the story arc in terms of timing (early Sephiroth, early summons, etc) I believe can be done with context and without detracting from faithfulness to the original, but time will tell. As for the Guardians, Roche, etc, there’s nothing so far to make me think it wouldn’t be completely in context, but there’s just that element of doubt until we actually get our hands on it...or I read the leaks...

On another note, I was initially concerned with some of the voice acting, or perhaps the script, after some early trailers. Some of the lines seemed excessively OTT (“let’s lay down some rubber”, “crank that throttle”) but these trailer-friendly soundbites seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Having watched the demo, fears have been more or less allayed. Jessie in particular seems to have been written and performed impeccably.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Pandemonium, you make some really good arguments regarding Genesis, and I agree with them. Conceptually he was a very promising character. I just didn't like him. I felt that if you knew him in real life he'd be super-annoying.

 

[LNK]

"I suppose this was always going to be the case, but this thread demonstrates that some of the changes in narrative are potentially going to be polarising. I hope that doesn’t detract from anyone’s individual experience with the game."

For me, as long as the core story is still there, I don't mind changes that add to it. If they don't add a few things I would like (Genesis & Angeal, Weiss and Nero, ps 1 graphics for gold saucer mini games, etc) it's not going to hurt my feelings. The original game as is, is still one of my favorite games of all time.

"From my perspective, I’m pretty comfortable with what I’ve seen so far (I haven’t gone into the leaks besides watching the demo) and will judge each case on its merits. What’s clear though is that they’ll probably push the boundaries as much as they can. After all, they’ve got to build a whole game out of a fraction of the OG "

Same here! I haven't watched anything but the trailers. I'm very optimistic about what they're going to do. There is a lot riding on what gets done with these parts, for SE.

As for the rest of what you said, I'm right there with you. I don't know how well the new elements are going to work, but I have faith in them

 

[Jimmy XH]

So I got on a brain wave right before falling asleep,

View attachment 4714

Spoiler

By having Shinra be responsible for the reactor explosion, this effectively means that at NO point are our main character's ever in a position where they have the upper hand over the company. They think they're making a difference, but they are actually just dancing in the palm of Shinra; they are completely powerless. This culminates in them all being captured and put in prison at Shinra HQ. There's nothing they can do but await whatever fate Shinra decides for them, they lost. Then Sephiroth shows up and completely demolishes Shinra from the inside out, accomplishing in a few hours what Avalanche couldn't manage in an entire full length game. This is the new "Sephiroth is just that much stronger than you" moment to compensate for the change in narrative.

EDIT: I finally had an oppritunity to make good on my username

Great spot.

Spoiler: Trailer Quote

Perhaps the Heidegger quote in one of the trailers “GYA HA HA, you still don’t understand your role in this!” plays nicely into this trail of thought that Shinra are playing this whole thing to their advantage until a certain someone shows up at HQ.

This may still be the case even when Cloud, Tifa and Barret are infiltrating the building to rescue Aeris. Regardless of whether you go up the stairs or not, how would Shinra not know that they’re running around the place causing havoc unless they are orchestrating the whole thing?

If this ends up being close to the apparent shift in narrative, I think I like it!

For me, as long as the core story is still there, I don't mind changes that add to it. If they don't add a few things I would like (Genesis & Angeal, Weiss and Nero, ps 1 graphics for gold saucer mini games, etc) it's not going to hurt my feelings. The original game as is, is still one of my favorite games of all time.

Yeah you're right. To be honest I'd probably be content with a PS4 HD carbon copy of the original.

Since we know that won't be the case, I think I'd like some clarity/expansion on the Nibelheim Incident, the escape, and the years leading up to Midgar. That incident has been tweaked so much since the OG that it's quite hard to follow.

When you look retrospectively, it doesn't make sense that the senior members of Shinra we encounter don't even hint at recognising Cloud throughout the early stages, but you can understand it given that you're not meant to know the details until Northern Crater/Mideel, so there's going to be an interesting balance to strike.

Hojo's little cameo in the latest trailer already suggests that he knew more than he was letting on in the OG and there’ll be other characters who we meet early on who were involved (that’s you, Tseng), so I wonder how far they’ll push it in this instance...

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

When you look retrospectively, it doesn't make sense that the senior members of Shinra we encounter don't even hint at recognising Cloud throughout the early stages, but you can understand it given that you're not meant to know the details until Northern Crater/Mideel, so there's going to be an interesting balance to strike.

Hojo's little cameo in the latest trailer already suggests that he knew more than he was letting on in the OG and there’ll be other characters who we meet early on who were involved (that’s you, Tseng), so I wonder how far they’ll push it in this instance...

I've long thought that Reno's observation about Cloud having mako eyes could be retooled as surprise that the guy the Turks knew wasn't a SOLDIER when they tried to save him now looks like one.

And as you say, there's no way Tseng wouldn't recognize him, even if Reno and Rude failed to (which seems unlikely anyway).

Hojo is definitely going to be delivering hints at things to come early on this time, though, and I'm so excited to see that. Also curious to see whether the remake will provide a reason for Sephiroth to be using Hojo's term for all of this -- "the Reunion."

When we first hear that term in Nibelheim in the original, it comes from Sephiroth. Kadaj used it too in AC/ACC. But Hojo was the one to coin the term, for his "Jenova Reunion Theory," as we hear at the crater in the original.

 

[Rydeen]

I'm glad it's got a lot of color, but it's still kinda dark. A lot of the shots in the Shinra building look "romantic" when they originally looked more "sterile." There is like no lighting in a lot of these scenes. I'm also not sure how I feel about how ritzy the Honey Bee looks. The original looked ostentatious, but it didn't necessarily look expensive - it looked sketch. Perhaps in context they are going for a "Vegas" vibe - a stark display of wealth and modernity that is attractive to tourists, in the middle of a slum. I keep reminding myself that this is a different game and that's ok.

 

[Wol]

Midgar looks more colorful and modern overall, it looks so pristine that it couldve being taken as a FFXIII shot.

 

[Rydeen]

I'm glad they waited to do the remake because of the 10 year period where game designers hated colors.

I like a fancy upper plate Midgar, but the slums are also looking a little more polished (such as 7th heaven - it's larger, has a proper awning, and the building materials are even). Maybe the dark lighting in the Shinra building is meant to further convey how shadowy of an organization they really are, but the nerfing of the slums in particular is one of the main things I hated about Crisis Core. I don't think it'll be as bad this time around, but still.

Maybe this all has a greater purpose.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It stands to reason that some parts of the slums would be wealthier than others.
What doesn't stand to reason is the small paradise that is Elmyra's house. It's not even under the plate any more.

 

[Odysseus]

Also worth mentioning that shinra executives even go to the honey bee inn, in the original game anyway (shout out to that unused scene with palmer.) So it can't be thaaaaaat skeevy.

 

[oty]

I do think that the aesthetics of this game will be different from the original, for multiple reasons. I just hope they dont stick out as unoriginal or bland, and actually come up with some nice creative stuff. Just let the creative direction flow more. I think what most impressed me now was the new Jenova fight. It focused a lot on a red-wine color scheme, and it looked really good. The rest kind of feels like too normal, but not exactly bad. It just definitely changed the more "cyber-steam" punk look of the original.

 

[Saven]

I'm glad they waited to do the remake because of the 10 year period where game designers hated colors.

Hahaha, I do not miss the PS3/360 era at all. I'm glad for this reason too and also for the fact that this was during the really awful Wada-era where every product SE made felt soulless and the Compilation reflected that. I think they would've made a remake of the game too serious back then along with some parts omitted due to the lack of technology to do a lot of the things needed to do a good FFVII remake, especially in level design.

 

[Jimmy XH]

It stands to reason that some parts of the slums would be wealthier than others.
What doesn't stand to reason is the small paradise that is Elmyra's house. It's not even under the plate any more.

Maybe I'm nit-picking, but could it be that the locations under or neighbouring the unfinished Sector 6 plate get more sunlight than others?

It might explain the daylight scenes we've seen so far in the slums through trailers. The Rude encounter (between Sector 5/6?), Reno in the church (Sector 5), Wall Market (Sector 6) and even some scenes in Sector 7 seem to be in the daylight.

To your point though, it doesn't quite explain how Elmyra has that house in the slums. Maybe she owned some Shinra shares in the early days.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If they're true to the spirit of the original they won't even try to explain it.
The only way a simple widow and her beautiful young adopted daughter could hang on to such a prime piece of real estate is
1. the Turks/Shinra are protecting them
2. Elmyra is the Don Corneo of Sector 5

 

[oty]

Wait, I don't get the "if they are true to the original, they won't try to explain it" part.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The original is full of wacky stuff that made no sense that they didn't trouble themselves to explain

Like, why is there a drop chute that leads from an amusement park straight down to a desert prison?
Is it a private prison?
How often does Dio drop people down there?
Why is Ester allowed to recruit chocobo jockeys from the prison?
Why is that the only way out?
Why does Cloud put the urgent hunt for Sephiroth on hold while he breeds and trains four generations of chocobos?
How did Shera escape alive from the ignition sequence? That rocket actually took off before Cid shut it down.
Why is the back door to Shinra, Inc. left unlocked?
And this

 

[oty]

Idk really. They don't need to invest a whole sequence to explain the Elmyra situation, but I don't think explaining it would somehow take some part of the original's spirit. I don't exactly think that this aspect of no explaining in the OG was the big influence over it being special.

I woudnt want the Remake to become a Christopher Nolan festival, and a lot of things really dont need an explanation or even an explicit reason (specially enemies and locations, since to me cool and original aesthetics always triumphs over logical sense) but it's not like the convenience and coincidence of FFVII is in my memorable's list. That's part of the reason I've always agreed to a lot of the Cait Sith complains, since he takes up a big spot in the convenience charts all around ( it's one of the things I always hoped the Remake would change)

 

[Obsidian Fire]

As the style of video games has developed, players have expected more and more concrete world building and developers have provided that for the most part.. FFVII is old enough that Rule of Cool trumped world building a lot of the time. But that time is long past for most people.

And Final Fantasy has more and more become known for having good, consistent world-building, especially in their later titles. FFXII, FFXIII, FFXIV and FFXV all go out of their way to explain why the world is the way it is. FFXII does this through the very detailed monster descriptions. FXIII has an in-game wikipedia. FFXIV has two lore books full of world building. FFXV has a datalouge again. And we know FFVIIR will have a monster manual/datalouge.

I expect to see a lot of the weird, wacky unexplained stuff from FFVII be fleshed out and explained in the Remake, if just because that's the style of games Final Fantasy makes now a days.

 

[oty]

Yup, and not just Final Fantasy. As much as I believe that over-explanation has become a thing, and it sucks lol, I'm not exactly a fan of plot armor too so...Idk. Just dont overuse it, Remake.

 

[Rydeen]

I’m ok with them explaining some of the seemingly non-sensible quirks (really wished they’d kept the mistranslations as jokes though. - eg. “Attack while the tail’s up, Cloud”), but narratively I would prefer them to avoid over-explaining/making things black and white. That’s just poor writing, in my opinion. FFVII in particular is supposed to have a mystique, and with the game so extended I’m not sure if that can be maintained at all.

 

[Theozilla]

Part of this topic really reminds me of Scott McCloud’s analysis on iconicity in his “Understanding Comics” graphic novel text. A lot of what he discusses can be applied to video games as well, particularly the evolution of games into higher fidelity audio-visual experiences.



Modern triple AAA video games (and thus the Remake) are inherently (relatively) less subjective experiences than than older more “iconic” video games simply because the there less work on the audiences side necessary to perceive the experience, as opposed to receiving it. Thus, to use metaphorical language, in games where characters’ literal flesh can be discernible details, a greater expectation of fleshing out the world comes as well.

 

[Rydeen]

That is such a wonderful explanation of the charm behind our favorite cartoonish 90s games. There are some games I’d never want to see remade. They can be easy for many to dismiss as lower entertainment, but they have a special depth - evoked by each viewer’s mind. Cartoonish pieces can be equally provocative and meaningful, and quality is determined through the ability of the creator to stimulate the mind.

 

[Odysseus]

Part of what I enjoy about the original is that, due to the lack of detailed models or voice acting, the emotions of the characters had to be conveyed solely through animations. There was so much life in those stiff little motions the lego characters made, it really added a lot of charm. Part of the reason I hate seeing people use graphical upgrade mods when playing the game is that, those animations just weren't made for detailed, proportional models, so they just look wrong. The game actively looks worse like that. So to get back to Remake here, I'm excited to see these characters move, talk and emote in a way they never could before, but there's definitely going to be something lost in the transition.

 

[oty]

I actually always thought that was one of the reasons a Remake wasn't so bad of an idea for this game. I mean, they had blocky poligons and still tried to convey emotions through animation. Imagine what they could come up with today's technologies, specially motion capture. Though I'd say that, from looking at the trailers atleast, the focus is majorly on facial animations and voice acting I believe. That's why they went to great lengths to have different language animations.