Final Fantasy VII Remake – Building For The Future

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Thanks to my tl;dr rambling on the forums, I managed to concentrate and collect a lot of the analysis all in once location to look at what happened around Remake's development, what things are in the game & what they allow us to surmise about its development & future, and what the future might look like given all of that information in the article: Final Fantasy VII Remake – Building For The Future.

I'm gonna do what I can to keep up on this sort of Analysis posting, since there're other things that I could ramble about, and maybe poke around at more of the old stuff I did that feels like it could use a refresh / revisit. :mon:



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Kain424

Old Man in the Room
This is probably the best article I've read about the Remake throughout the entire reaches of the internet. I've gone through it twice now. Your information is solid, and your points seem spot-on. As just a player, with no QA insight or anything of that manner, I felt there was much missing from the game toward the end. Your article perfectly illustrates not only the most likely cause of this sensation, but also a possible and seemingly likely remedy. Absolutely excellent work.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Thanks a ton, @Kain424 that genuinely means the world to me. Being super frustrated during the end of the game, and forcing myself to stare REALLY hard at all the bits I liked least helped me a lot in writing this article, and also in completely overcoming how I felt about the ending bits of the game where things felt off. Knowing how meticulous the team had been throughout the entire game in terms of presentation and intentional narrative direction, even with the PS4/PS5 optimization bugs, I just couldn't stop looking and thinking through Remake as a piece of software and what struggles come with that. It was hard finding a balance that wouldn't just seem like criticizing, or wild theorizing, but the quote from the Ultimania is really what solidified everything to give me a good trajectory to address things. Just well beyond pleased that what I really wanted to communicate with the article worked. <3




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Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Just finished reading the article a few minutes ago. Definitely made recognize things I didn't notice before. I probably noticed even less than other people, since I had grinded to level 50 during the middle of Chapter 16, so any design issue induced difficulties would be far less of a challenge for me than than players who beat the game at their late 30s/early 40s levels.

Though I always did wonder if the fact that there were no depicted scenes of Tifa breaking off from the group and coming back for Cloud and/or not seeing Tifa and Cloud hijack the motorcycle and truck were intentional design/narrative choices (in order to be "surprised" by Cloud and Tifa coming to the rescue), or if they were content that had been cut for time. I now definitely think the latter is a much greater possibility now.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I think that especially because it coincides with
the lack of anyone talking about Jenova, and this big Avalanche attack basically being shown as a single helicopter, and a split second look at Wedge in a cutscene, rather than wandering back to get him and just missing him on the way were definitely just fragments of what they planned on expanding and developing more thoroughly.

@Shademp has also mentioned to me that NPCs in Chapter 16 reuse a lot dialogue from pre-existing NPCs, rather than having as many unique lines like in other parts of the game, which may also help point to these same srots of struggles, and not having as much time to finish more unique minor interactions that weren't already part of things that had already been storyboarded out and completed as major events.




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English voice clips from the slums re-used in Chapter 16. I'm convinced there are a few more cases but I was unable to find recordings to confirm this. I have no idea to what degree, if any, that the Japanese game re-uses voice clips.


While NPC dialogue doesn't appear to be randomly assigned most of the time, I noticed that when I revisited the group watching TV in Chapter 8 that there were slight differences in what voice clips were available there. Or maybe it was just the faulty NPC detection mechanics glitching out on me.

It's worthwhile to note that inbetween slum-based chapters I never observed a single repeated voice clip. Some NPC text can be similar from time to time, but the voice used is always different. Repetition of voice clips only happened in Chapter 16.

If I'm not mistaken, there were also way more cases in Ch16 of an NPC only having one line of spoken dialogue instead of two. It is most common across the game for NPCs to have two different lines of dialogue that can be triggered.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Though even with the reused NPC dialogue, I still think Chapter 16 turned our great, it’s definitely one of my favorites in the Remake.

Oh, wholeheartedly agreed! The Chapter itself is amazing – perhaps even moreso given how much work in there that the team was still able to make feel complete without actually having the full development and polish that all of the other chapters did in the latter portions. It's why I've spent more time staring at things in the Remake that I dislike or find deeply flawed post-game than anything else, and it's served only to make me love the entirety of Remake even more – and have an incredible level of love, trust, and appreciation for the team behind it.

Also @Shademp – if you wouldn't mind, I'd totally like to edit in a link to that video & mention the NPCs into the article.



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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X

Done & done. Added it in the start of the portion about Chapter 16, as well as making a call back to it in Chapter 17 – both are edit annotated, so that it's clear they were added afterwards, as well as a mention of the change at the bottom of the article. (And yup, apparently I still use the US's MM/DD/YYYY format, and didn't think about it until typing this thread reply) :awesomonster:


Also, corrected the name you had on your comment Lic, since it looks like you forgot. :mon:



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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
As an added bit of context since it just happened: Xbox Series X having their game reveal stuff today is a part of that large intractable ecosystem that's getting things rolling in mid-Q2 of 2020 that Sony has to match with PS5, which is a part of what controlled Remake doing what they did when and how they did it.

If Sony does something for the PS5 some time later this month or early next month, I wouldn't be surprised – given that Microsoft's next Xbox Games Studio stuff is gonna be in July, it feels like that's one of their points where they can step in and push their marketing competition – which is exactly the kind of space that they need to not make Remake feel outdated, or to not make the PS5 updates seem less significant.




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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Wanted to cross-post these two things in here, since both the video & my follow-up comment are very closely connected to this. This is the sort of reason why it takes enough data and analysis to get a sense of what the development workflow & vision probably looks like, before trying to understand the design mindset for bosses, and then how those get balanced through testing, to then be able to look back at them in their current state & analyze the boss workflows in huge detail back in my original thread, before looking at the types of bugs and design decisions that were being perfected and the rough edges that were being smoothed out to try and assess when things are intentionally sharp, or when they're not quite where they ought to be.

This is an excellent one to keep in mind given feelings about a certain game that's very popular on these forums. :awesomonster:
The other factor at play is that you have to know a LOT about the data / feedback you're looking at in order to understand how to act upon it effectively. Aside from sampling & reporting biases, things like survivorship bias kick in really strongly when you're looking at problems & trying to apply solutions without taking a step back from the data to understand it in context. That's why it's not just players' suggestions themselves, but also understanding that the developers understand what the end goal is, and how they're trying to achieve it best, and what about the feedback is pointing to an issue in that path.

To mention something Remake-related:

The Marauder in Doom Eternal & Rufus in Remake fundamentally have the same issue for players – they're antithetical to the lessons and gameplay strategy skills that the rest of the game is reinforcing and establishing. It's not just that you have to "git gud" to beat them (you can), but they're discordant with the rest of the growth and progression of the player-informed combat in a way that's frequently less fun to people who enjoy everything else about the game, rather than being a challenge to the people who love everything else about the game. It's why if there were a Souls boss who had an un-dodgable & unblockable AoE move that forced you to beat him quickly, it would be disliked because it's antithetical to the design and skill progression for that game.

It's really a matter of how "sharp" those encounters are when compared against the rest of the game's more dynamically approachable combat solutions that does this. While Mr. X in Resident Evil 2 Remake is stressful as hell, he's just a better version of the other zombies. He's more proactive, and much harder to stop – but the skills that you use to stop him are essentially the same as how you deal with other zombies. He just forces you to rely on evasion and escape, and only use combat when necessary. This also pushes against the player conserving ammunition vs. not allowing zombies to congregate in hordes. He is very much a culmination of the skills that the game trains you for, rather than being antithetical to those skills.

None of those things are necessarily bad, even though they're all difficult & probably stressful to deal with. They have to be looked at in context with everything else leading up to, and growing off of them, and then should be adjusted in order to fit within that path – and there are a ton of ways to tackle that, very few of which are usually simple solutions about the boss or something, depending on how much it spiders out into the rest of the gameplay systems around it, and how those need to react to & with it as well.

Another aspect of that that's difficult is familiarity. When you spend all your time designing something or testing with it, it's often difficult to get a sense of what it's like for users to run into those sorts of things for the first time ever. It's why being a test engineer involves lots of lensing your testing through a "persona" of certain user types to try to think outside your own familiarity and understand how other users might experience those things before you have a chance to do any sort of user-testing for real-world data. That helps you to take that kind of information and figure out what to do with it – which is also why I'm pretty certain that a ton of the playthrough information and data is stuff that SE is looking at for the purpose of continuing to iterate and improve development in the sequels – especially when I was hitting on things like how the end bosses were supposed to work, and what it looks like they're trying to teach players, and what information they're probing players for when, and how.




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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Given that this particular news post is currently (by word count) the third largest piece of front-page content ever on TLS... and it has fewer views than there are currently active online users on the forums right now – would anyone be opposed to me trying a small experiment of making a much smaller news post that repackages just the attention-grabby bits (Playable Red XIII & Party Selection), and then links into this bigger article as a "read more" at the end of it to see how that impacts readership?




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Lex

Administrator
X can I ask how you know how many views it has?

I would leave a summary type post for now. I don't think it's justified, we need way more content to do something like that (at least put a bit of separation from the OP). By all means continue to write and then do a roundup-style post in the future though. Or maybe even add a summary to your OP in here.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I'm not crazy about the idea myself ... =/

Believe me, I get wishing more folks would see your work (like, meaning both "your" as in "mine" and yours "your" :wacky: ), but that practice on other websites annoys me so much.
 

Kain424

Old Man in the Room
I've been fairly pushy in trying to get people to read this as well, though there is definitely some resistance in people both not wanting to see the flaws in this game and also seemingly being intimidated by its length. People hate to read anymore.

Perhaps a video could be made from it? That seems the most digestible way these days.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
@Lex Just poking around looking at Wordpress' site feed info and also TLS' Google Analytics data.

I wanted ta motivate myself into doing more regular articles, but also think about making sure that effort on something will also make sure that it'll get seen properly, as I had a couple friends not notice that there was a second page on this article because WordPress's pagination controls are tiny and REALLY easy to overlook. So, as I was pondering what to work on next, I wanted to see if that might've happened to anyone else and if so, how much, and try to both mitigate that and maybe correct it if possible. Which also got me thinking about how SEO stuff might still work to my advantage if I keep making this type of very lengthy content, to ensure people actually see it when they're interested without needing to adjust the tone of articles.

The tl;dr is that if you look at users who hit the average page time on the first page of this article (~6 mins), it's about 110 unique sessions that which isn't bad, since under that are still a lot of people who could be reasonably skimming over to get a sense of what's there and not actually reading it... However... If you're looking at that data for anyone who made it to page 2 – there're only about 30 unique sessions that hit the average time on the page (~10 mins) spent long enough to read or even really skim the content, and after about 40 sessions it's dropping to under 4 mins, which... is pretty rough ta see, especially when you compare it to the times where sessions clearly did read the content, and also even just compared to the first page.

That's basically dropping 75% of people who spent the time to actually read the content on the first page, and not just skim it. – Hence why I wanted to see if there might be a reasonable way to point some more focus at the clickbait-y party selection & Red XIII bits, since those are specifically detailed on the second page, and that's stuff that a bunch of interested people apparently never saw, and some people who skimmed might be able to have felt that they reasonably missed, so either of them might reasonably give it a more detailed look if given the opportunity via a different introductory vector more specifically focused on the latter portion.


Also, I think that having a round up of articles might be a decent thing to do to help showcase some of the things that're drawing traffic from the Remake, or that we think people might be looking for (Lifestream Black & White, the Kids Are Alright, the Timeline, FFX-2 connection & a couple other things have all had more traffic during the same period of time, so I think it might be worth doing some sort of "Useful things on TLS" showcase after poking around at stats and whatnot).


@The Twilight Mexican Same here, tbh. It was the analytics seeing not just people skimming and ditching (as that's somewhat expected), but people who did read it never make it to the second page, that made me want to pull eyes back on it over the points that it seems like 3/4s of the readership might've totally missed is addressed in the article.


@Kain424 Yeah, it's unfortunate that articles are less popular, but it is what it is for the time that it is! :mon: Also, someone probably could make a video like this, but even if I was really proficient at video editing and content creation like that (which I'm definitely not), something like this would just be a ridiculously monolithic amount of work.

Even if I was just using the article as a script, I think that it'd take probably twice as much work as I did to get everything together, because I use hyperlinking to content as a way to passively let people check out content for context if needed, but videos you'll have to detail certain things more. Even stuff just like the quick summary of the boss breakdown alone would be an insane amount of work to accomplish, because part of video is that you're using and showing the examples as they play out, and clipping the sections you want to showcase or refer to.

Maybe if there's a ton of interest by some other super talented folks who'd want to make this article into a video, and could help with sourcing and getting things put together, I'd be happy to assist, but it's way outside of my skillset unfortunately and I think that a video'd be super difficult. At best, I'd be able to give a very loose, "Hey, here're a couple basic things, please go read the bigger details." which I'm not sure really accomplishes anything more than just the generic social sharing and whatnot.



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Claymore

3x3 Eyes
In all honesty, I hadn't read this before now because it was simply too daunting, and this is coming from someone who calls himself a self-proclaimed writer and a former proof-reader. There are definitely some great insights in there - I didn't know anything about the party switching stuff that seems to have been nixed from the end of the game (though I knew that Red XIII seemed to have been a full party member at some point in development after seeing that gameplay of his model which someone extracted on YT) and though I don't personally agree with you on some of those rushed Boss fight points, it's nice to see your QA perspective on it.

However, despite the good content in there I was still only able to skim-read most of it and not absorb the entire article properly.

For better or for worse, we are in the era of easily digestible and highly accessible content. Even more than this, I had a bigger issue that hasn't cropped up yet and might also be a major factor in readership - the article itself loses its core focus. It is set up as what SE can learn from their development of the Remake, and what can be taken into the future for the proceeding installments, but that seems to only be 1/5th of it's structure. It quickly sets out (far too) lengthy outlines of the release date delay and development, bug occurrences, QA issues, trimmed content, etc... It becomes three/four different articles before then trying to tie back to the core theme with the final segment.

Personally, I feel that very few parts, of the article as a whole, really asks the spotlight question, or presents options, to what can be learnt for the future. For example, the entire segment about Boss gameplay issues that you highlighted, there's actually nothing about what can be taken from the brilliant gameplay into future installments. It's just, 'here's the issues with it'. I have no problems reading about 'the game has issues in all the final areas', but that doesn't go anywhere and that's not what the article was setting up for.

Personally, I would break it down into 3 focused videos that can follow on from each other but be consumed separately. The Red XIII / party switching stuff is gold and needs to be the first. That then naturally leads into the second, the rushed final chapter segments / Boss fights QA outlines. Then the third and final video would be the lessons learnt during development (going back to the original paragraphs of the article about PS5 development / options) but also a stronger focus on what SE can take (or not take, as may be the case) into future installments.

Again, this is all just my opinion. Great content, but it desperately needs to be refocused.


At the moment there is only a skeleton crew in the Creative Circle (which is a shame, we definitely need to find ways to get more people involved) but if this is something you would consider doing, I'd offer my help to see it come to life. I've got a lot on, but we need to try and unify our collective efforts across the site more anyway. This seems like it would be a good start.
 

Lex

Administrator
@X-SOLDIER I vibe with what @Claymore is saying re: digestible content but your longer pieces are always an interesting read, and they often serve as indexes for us to point to in the future (i.e. more than just a news article, it contains so much information that it remains relevant for years to come rather than just disappearing in history).

Your point about two pages is correct (and by "your point" I mean people not reading beyond the first in the majority of cases), but that has always been the case for content going on longer than a page's worth. The proportion of fans who actually have the time to sit and read an article of that size need to be dedicated and committed, and that's who it's targeting. My main advice is don't obsess over how many hits it gets and be proud of what you've concocted on its own (assuming you're happy with it).

The eventual goal of the YT is always to transform discussions or interesting insights into videos aswell.

With all of that and the aforementioned taken into account, I would say follow a compromise of both you and Claymore's ideas for now - identify the various topics discussed within your original article and then split them out into smaller, more digestible articles (or article series') that would be suitable for a 5 minute coffee-break read and can then be transformed into video ideas. These can contain new information since the focus will be on one individual aspect, and obviously you can point to the original article as something bigger for folk to digest. @CrashOuch can proof-read as she did on this one and we can have a look at the length and structure before it's published.

I think this is probably the best way forward, if you're up for doing it?
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Personally, I would break it down into 3 focused videos that can follow on from each other but be consumed separately. The Red XIII / party switching stuff is gold and needs to be the first. That then naturally leads into the second, the rushed final chapter segments / Boss fights QA outlines. Then the third and final video would be the lessons learnt during development (going back to the original paragraphs of the article about PS5 development / options) but also a stronger focus on what SE can take (or not take, as may be the case) into future installments.

Again, this is all just my opinion. Great content, but it desperately needs to be refocused.

It's super interesting to see the way you ordered things, because there is a specific reason that I laid them out in the order I did.

I started with the PS5 & Release cycle constraints, because those are all things that would be a part of the development cycle that shifts their technological focus & internal roadmap starting at least 3 years ago. So while the PS5 isn't out, and we still think of it as upcoming technology – it's very much just surrounding historical context for Remake's development that causes a lot of the bugs and developmental bottlenecks that you see hitting around the end of the game, and is why Red XIII & party switching gets cut. Understanding that makes how & why features get cut something more understandable & less lazy or shortsighted.

Then looking at Red XIII & Party Switching to show how complex they are to establish and how many pieces are still around in the current release establishes a better certainty that those are the elements that are cut out of the game. As a part of looking at the technical, design, and thematic shifts that are meant to employ them, those missing features inform us what type of content bottle neck they represent within the development. This is ultimately what informs what other pieces of the game would even exist at that type of stage, and then how cutting that content impacts everything else around it being in a more rough QA stage – leaving enemy encounters, traversal, loading gates, save benches, and even the boss fights in a rough state, and letting us infer more about how each chapter gets tackled & polished.

Then with that information, we can look at the final chapters & unfinished boss battles, because understanding the workflow of what those boss battles were going to be is only possible once you understand what Red XIII & Party Switching was supposed to provide for them. This allows you to examine how the gameplay design was supposed to have expanded throughout those boss fights – ending up with the two final bosses that are meant to be pulling HUGE amounts of very specific types of player data that doesn't currently exist specifically for utilization along with the next gen technology that all of this development has been guided by, in order to shape how they can approach expanding the content of the game, as well as how all of these issues combined might have them look at releasing smaller packages of chapters as content vs. full game sequels.

It's definitely not as attention-grabbing, or focused as individual parts – but each of those things relies incredibly heavily on a thorough understanding of the topic that comes before, because that's how it actually happens within game development, which is all how & why I can even dissect this type of information as an outsider. It was initially split into those three parts, but the deeply technical minutiae of all of the Chapter 17 and boss fight stuff is overly nit-picky if you're not a QA person (one of the things I learned from posting about it in forum threads first). Ultimately it's too heavily focusing on highlighting the issues rather than showing how the issues help to highlight the path itself, which is why those ended up getting more condensed and laid out in a single page. This is also because that's by far the most speculative of anything since the end of that is really based on what we can infer about what's meant to be built on missing pieces, rather than what we can infer about extant content & technology from what's still there.

At the moment there is only a skeleton crew in the Creative Circle (which is a shame, we definitely need to find ways to get more people involved) but if this is something you would consider doing, I'd offer my help to see it come to life. I've got a lot on, but we need to try and unify our collective efforts across the site more anyway. This seems like it would be a good start.

The most difficult part for me currently is timing on things. Writing is easy because I can absorb a random half hour here and there, or suddenly get into a groove at midnight and write until 6am. It's definitely a place worth starting though, and I think that better unification on the collective creative efforts here is definitely a good thing. Not sure what the best way to spin up initially looking at doing something about it would be, but drop me a message or something, and I'll see what all might work best!




@Lex It's not about the overall views, as the Exit and Bounce numbers make it easy to tell who just checks the first page and moves on. That's pretty expected of internet traffic, and I'm not at all bothered that a bunch of people will want to skim through. It's why I break up things into section headings, to help people just scan and get the basics, because not everyone has the time or interest in all of the tl;dr.

The part the bothered me was that of the unique views who actually DID take the time to have read all of the content on the first page, 75% of those users didn't ever get to the second page. This is despite already being specifically within the group who have already committed their own time to go through the article's first page in detail out of their own interest. Those views aren't just anyone – they're the core audience for this kind of content. That's why I went hunting to try and figure out the best data we have on the specifically interested audience who genuinely likes this stuff, after I had friends missing half of the article totally unintentionally because Wordpress's pagination is next to invisible. We don't want 3/4s of our core interested audience to be missing out on half the content – least of all the parts that are more specifically focused on the game itself & the actual conclusions from all that detailed work.

It's like if you made a movie that drew in an ok crowd, but then found out that of the 100 people who really liked it and were paying close attention, 75 of them thought that the intermission was actually the end credits and just left the theater (or closed the video during the first ad break). That fucking sucks, and you DEFINITELY need to find out a way to identify & correct that misunderstanding before trying to make another one.



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