Final Fantasy VII Remake – Building For The Future

Claymore

3x3 Eyes
It's super interesting to see the way you ordered things, because there is a specific reason that I laid them out in the order I did.

Oh yeah, I definitely see why it was ordered that way in the article. I was just pointing out that, if I was to break it down specifically for a video series, you'd need to come out with guns blazing first (with the most engaging / interesting part of the content that will get viewers hooked, alongside retention into the proceeding parts) to the least engaging / hook-able content. That doesn't mean the content in the last parts are not as good as the first, it's simply what would hold interest the longer, since those who have an specific interest in the article / subject matter anyway will remain for the final parts.

The most difficult part for me currently is timing on things. Writing is easy because I can absorb a random half hour here and there, or suddenly get into a groove at midnight and write until 6am. It's definitely a place worth starting though, and I think that better unification on the collective creative efforts here is definitely a good thing. Not sure what the best way to spin up initially looking at doing something about it would be, but drop me a message or something, and I'll see what all might work best!

Definitely. Will throw you a message and see if we can work out a plan for this.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
The pagination thing is honestly surprisingly easy to address. Just end the first page with a hyperlink to page 2 in a line like "Now let's begin taking a look at This Cool Thing on [the next page of this eXtreme analysis article]." You can even add bold or increase the typeface size to get it to stand out more if needed.

One of those elegantly simple solutions that frustratingly only seems obvious in hindsight. :monster:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Oh yeah, I definitely see why it was ordered that way in the article. I was just pointing out that, if I was to break it down specifically for a video series, you'd need to come out with guns blazing first (with the most engaging / interesting part of the content that will get viewers hooked, alongside retention into the proceeding parts) to the least engaging / hook-able content. That doesn't mean the content in the last parts are not as good as the first, it's simply what would hold interest the longer, since those who have an specific interest in the article / subject matter anyway will remain for the final parts.

Definitely. Will throw you a message and see if we can work out a plan for this.

Oh totally understandable.

The other thing that I wanted to make a big effort for (and the reason for putting this all in one article) is that being someone in QA, I know that how information gets conveyed also does a lot to galvanize peoples' opinions – especially because people are hunting for bite-size consumable content.

I don't want this information to fuel a bunch of "they sold us an incomplete game" "they're gonna make us buy what we should have gotten in the first place" type arguments, since I don't know if this kind of update would come just as a regular content update, or if it'd be DLC. Establishing a lot of contextual information that will shape someone's opinion of bad news is really important – Red XIII is a perfect example.

If SE didn't announce Red XIII was going to be released as a guest character first – fans would have been PISSED when they got to that point in the game. It's especially true when I start poking at things that are unfinished in the game that point back to those "We decided to do this" quotes as being meant in a slightly different context, I want to make sure that the mitigating circumstances that control decisions that even game producers & directors have no control over were well understood first, and it's definitely something that we'll have to figure our way around when planning this stuff.


The pagination thing is honestly surprisingly easy to address. Just end the first page with a hyperlink to page 2 in a line like "Now let's begin taking a look at This Cool Thing on [the next page of this eXtreme analysis article]." You can even add bold or increase the typeface size to get it to stand out more if needed.

One of those elegantly simple solutions that frustratingly only seems obvious in hindsight. :monster:

Oh yeah, I did both of those things & even edited in a mention of a second part in the opening summary. The main frustration is knowing that there're a bunch of people who did read the article and clearly WANTED the information that's in the second part – but likely won't ever return to the article to get it. Especially because they're the people who'd've come in earliest when the site updates, and they're again – the core demographic for this kind of thing.

I'm definitely gonna be overly obvious with it any time I have a multi-page split from now on – though I wish that it wasn't necessary in the first place if Wordpress' UX for pagination was better – but that's just me nitpicking about software UX design, because that's a big component of my job. :awesomonster:





X :neo:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Or if it will come at all. The game is already considered a critical and sales success. There may be no incentive for them to "fix" anything in the game.

Oh, it's not at all gonna be marketed as a "fix" because they preempted that by announcing Red XIII being a guest character was an intentional design decision. "Fixing" something is literally zero part of the incentive for that action ever since they took that stance – and I never even considered that being the reason for them doing it. This is a part of product roadmap adjustments where you make a feature cut into an intentional design decision that you can release a quality-of-life improvement for in the future, if it benefits you to do so.

This is why I've been looking at it from these different directions on that front:
  • FFXV's model worked spectacularly well for maintaining long-term fan & audience engagement, but also in getting regular feedback from players, and improving a game that was already liked to be even more well-received across-the-board. For a game that's telling a single story across a long period of time & multiple releases, this technique works well – especially if they're tackling the other parts as more rapid development releases, and not quite like other big sequel games like they seem to be hinting about in that translation I included at the start of the article.
  • Red XIII will eventually be playable in the future, and it makes more sense to have him available as an ally as soon as you meet him in-game if you're looking at the idea of players going through the entirety of Remake as a single experience. This is again a lot like FFXV in that regard where content-cut playable characters got added in as playable from the start of the game but after-the-fact DLC. Essentially once Red XIII is built as a character, I don't see any world where he's still left only a guest character in this game.
  • The unfinished work are critical systems that they want to test because they're going need to be used in all of the sequels: Party switching, and multi-party boss battles are both things that they both need and want to use. Updating the stuff in the game that they already have with players lets them beta test ALL of those systems with their actual audience before they make a whole set of new game relies on it.
  • The way that the work was suspended in Remake points to it still being under active development. Specifically Party Swapping & Chadley's stuff. The state that it was left in is what you see when active work is still happening, but it needs to be blocked from players using it. If that stuff was being fully cut out – we wouldn't see the particular types of things we do in Chapter 17, since it'd be way easier to not care about needing to return to it and actually removing those things, rather than just partially disconnecting them.
  • We know that the game still has to go through active testing to confirm that it's playable with the hardware optimizations on PS5, and that they're likely still working on things for Remake because of that. As a software development team, if you've got basically 8 months of open time to do optimizations on stuff that you've already been working on and testing in parallel – and there's cut content that the entire team wants to complete, this is REALLY easy to prioritize specifically because the game IS a critical success, and you don't have to rush to repair things and fill that time with other things. This is where knowing how passionate the team is about the stuff in the game I can't see them not pushing to try to do that because they're just as passionate about it – which again, was also directly mentioned in the interview about Red XIII being made as a guest character.
The reason that I've been speaking with the level of certainty about these things that I have been is because all of this is information that helps show incentive & motivation for why the things that happened did. Knowing that, and then looking at the way that things are with the game and what kind of passion exists for this with the team who's making it – there's literally no negative to doing it, and there're a huge number of positives that would come from it from a PR standpoint, and also from a development standpoint. Like, it's literally nothing but across-the-board wins for them on every front even if they released it for free.



X:neo:
 

Kain424

Old Man in the Room
Red XIII will eventually be playable in the future, and it makes more sense to have him available as an ally as soon as you meet him in-game if you're looking at the idea of players going through the entirety of Remake as a single experience. This is again a lot like FFXV in that regard where content-cut playable characters got added in as playable from the start of the game but after-the-fact DLC. Essentially once Red XIII is built as a character, I don't see any world where he's still left only a guest character in this game.

I certainly hope this is the case. There's actually quite a bit of things going on narratively to indicate they are future-proofing the game for that exact kind of "single experience" playthrough for this Remake, so that even sounds right from that level. It would only make sense for them to do so.

However, the idea the team would actually spend the resources on this just doesn't make a lot of sense to me from a corporate point of view. Final Fantasy XV came out as an incomplete experience to begin with. Patches were made immediately, and DLC was announced fairly quickly. They were eager to please, because they knew they'd sort of messed up in the first place. That doesn't appear to be the case with Remake. I like the idea, mind you, but I'm just not sure this is the reality.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
However, the idea the team would actually spend the resources on this just doesn't make a lot of sense to me from a corporate point of view. Final Fantasy XV came out as an incomplete experience to begin with. Patches were made immediately, and DLC was announced fairly quickly. They were eager to please, because they knew they'd sort of messed up in the first place. That doesn't appear to be the case with Remake. I like the idea, mind you, but I'm just not sure this is the reality.

I think that you might be misunderstanding just what goes into planning and spending resources vis-a-vis software development in general, but also when it comes to this project in particular.

The unfinished work that I've been calling out here would already have been scoped & cost-planned in the initial planning of the game. That's why we see any remnants of it at all, is because it was work that was started with the intent of finishing. This isn't something that would be an extra cost – it's a part of the planned development that they were unable to complete before they had to make roadmap adjustments around the deadline when they couldn't get the work completed in time to the level that they were satisfied with. When they were negotiating for a release date extension – they would have already been planning ways to complete that work long before ever even attempting to start asking for that. That's already because the release change bumped Remake from Japan's 2019 fiscal year into 2020. All of that would have been covered well in advance.

Additionally, all of this work is work that has to happen anyway for the sequels. From a corporate cost standpoint, you're spending money to get that work done either way. If you let the team work on the assets that were already in development, you're not needing to start from the ground up. Finishing what's there is literally the most efficient way to do that work. If you're doing that, it doesn't make any sense not to release it as well, because you're getting feedback from your future target audience on features you want to use as a baseline for the next game. Your developers get usable data, your marketing and PR team get to strengthen customer relationships, you get to be more confident in the software that you're using moving forward, you can make optimizations based on user data, and it's also more efficient than just starting off all over again with the next game. This is especially important because of how much data about player choice and team composition is important when building effective systems to make use of a game with so many playable characters when the sequels come out. It's all good business when you're in the business of making more of this specific game for this specific audience – Like I said, there's literally no good reason not to, even if you released it for free.

Lastly, not doing that work would go against literally everything that we know about the passion that's driving their entire development team. The first 15.5 chapters are some of THE most detailed and polished pieces of gameplay ever, not to mention some of the best damned FFVII love letters to the original game ever created. All of the behind the scenes stuff shows that this mindset and passion goes into every inch of making the game. When they talked about Red XIII being limited to a guest character, he mentioned specifically that the development staff felt the same way as the fans who wanted him to be playable. This isn't a team who's just looking at the game's release as a way to move on if they had always planned a better version of those final chapters – just look at the announcement that they put up about the release date delay. They want to make the version of Remake that they're envisioning because they want it to feel like the ideal legacy that it's trying to live up to. I can tell you from a software development and testing point of view – there's nobody on that team who just wants to call it good and move on to the next one with the way that those final levels are right now, especially because they know what they were MEANT to be, and that's the vision of the end of the game that's consistent with their internal passion for the project.

The key difference is that they're not looking to take up a position of coming to "fix" things. Anything that they do is going to be because the team wants to improve the experience for players to be the thing the team is passionate about. That's why all of the language used is used the way it is when those decisions got made. It's differentiating itself from the trajectory of "re-earning trust" that FFXV took, to something that's like "making things even more amazing for their fans" instead.



Also, anecdotally: The last few chapters in Remake are significantly less complete than anything in FFXV ever was. This is including FFXV's original and much-maligned Chapter 13. While they were planning DLC to mitigate things months in advance of their release, this is the same reason that Remake was trying to get an extension on their release date. It's the same basic problem even if it looks different from the outside. FFXV had the benefit of all the Chocobros being guest characters and having a lot of time to build their development around that, which is very different than how late-stage Red XIII's playable status got bumped, and it shifted everything else around it.



X:neo:
 

Kain424

Old Man in the Room
Again, I really hope that is correct. I may have a bit too much of the U.S. corporate culture "cut corners" and "save on costs" mentality. In my mind, I imagine them having to move teams of people from one set of projects to another in order to accomplish any level of fine-tuning. And I cannot picture person in management okaying the separation of their work force to finish an already-released product while the rest of the team works on the next part.

But yeah. That's really a failure of my imagination. Though since I CAN imagine perfecting gameplay for future portions of the game, I could see them being able to actually fairly easily iron out issues along the way and sort of patch those into the first part. But then, there I go again. I see a lot of what bogged down the Drum section as a major flaw that does need to be fixed. And I really want it to be the case that they get party switching and a full character roster set up.

So I agree. I may just be bad at words and stuff.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Again, I really hope that is correct. I may have a bit too much of the U.S. corporate culture "cut corners" and "save on costs" mentality.

My experience with U.S. corporate culture is more one of "we will throw as much good money after bad as we have to in order to justify our initial expenditures." :wacky:

But in this situation, we're really just talking about finishing a job that will make the next job easier.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
The other things that you need to account for in the "corporate" picture is that the commitment also involves long-term efficiency. Remake isn't just a "one off and on to the next" type project. The development team is deeply passionate about the project as a whole & Square Enix doing Remake at all means that they're committed to releasing the ENTIRETY of that thing at a corporate level. On top of that, they've historically gained value by doing things like FFXV's DLC, so it's an incentive not a deterrent. Even having some teams working on the next game doesn't re-shift and reorganize things all that much, especially because of how Remake is designed.

One of the biggest things about the PS5's modular installation is the idea that they MIGHT be looking at releasing blocks of Chapters rather than standalone sequel games. From a development standpoint – that essentially allows them to just work on the "sequels" as if they were still working on the same game and just making Chapter 19 in a lot of ways. That makes development WAY easier, and would explain why they put so much effort into future-proofing THIS game for having a lifecycle on PS5. That's why we get the comments about them not knowing how many sequels there will be, and wanting to get them out quickly – they don't know how that's happening yet, but there are a lot of options available to them. They've known for YEARS that the majority of Remake's story will be released during the PS5's lifecycle, so it makes sense to plan around that – which they've clearly done with all of the technology in Remake so far, which also indicates that this is the degree of corporate commitment that they have on that project – not just on this first game.

It's why I think that releasing the updates for the final chapters with Red XIII & party-selection is essentially the perfect test of how that modular release works for them as a development cycle, how long it takes, and how far ahead the other teams get on the next chapters they want to release during that window. It's essentially serving as an internal test for what a model of a modular release vs. a full sequel release looks like, and generates a ton of data for them as a company at the same time, as well as all of the other things that I mentioned. Plus, it doesn't come with big issues around monolithic release dates which are the things that have caused them the most trouble with all of their releases.

If you look at what's incomplete in the last three Chapters – that will tell you what early development phases on the next parts look like. Especially because it's compartmentalized into Chapters, we know that their internal work tracking also happens in chapter-based divisions. We can understand which teams start on what parts when, what work is dependent on other things, and also some of which teams co-share responsibilities and ownership of certain work, and which teams gets blocked by what.

Remake[/I] was released:]

Any of the early production stuff like is already on the sequels:
  • Visual design & Concept art – that probably started months ago. They're super agnostic from the other teams as soon as work is happening in earnest, and they don't have to implement design iterations for upcoming assets.
  • Character/Enemy modeling – especially for hero characters, important NPCs, & Bosses, the team who makes them is likely already working on that. I don't expect anything new in Remake, given how the Enemy Intel is already enumerated out to 114 as the final boss, so all the potential encounters are likely just going to be implemented by the combat-focused team(s).
  • Story Planning – this includes mapping out branching options and how they work with technology, which is dependent on a lot of the party-selection stuff that's still in development before they can actually implement a framework for it.
  • Pacing & Boss Encounters – It's roughly mapping out what things happen when, but also helps to define how much content happens in any given chapter. This means that the chapters can all be scoped as roughly-similar-sized amounts of work, because that helps with release planning & knowing how long to expect development, testing, and polish to take before it can be considered finalized.
  • Dialogue writing, scenario, & animation planning – the same stuff where we see duplication of animations in The Drum needs to be scaled up, so that the teams aren't spending large amounts of time creating animations that players never see. If you're planning a scenario, you have to know which characters are locked into the party, which are variable, and if there are variable ones, where those animations can be used again later, so that they're not wasted, but also so that we don't see them repetitively.
  • Map layout – There's still polish & work for Chapters 17 & 18 respectively, but a lot of the blocking and planning stuff is likely happening.

These teams are still doing work on the last three chapters:
  • Boss Battles / Enemy Encounters – they're likely finishing work on Chapter 17 & 18.
  • Playable Characters – They have to finish Red XIII anyway, so it makes sense to do it here. Some of them might've started out on other characters depending on how far along he is, but it seems like a huge amount of work, so I don't think they'd focus on more than one at a time until they're totally wrapped.
  • Party-selection – Again work that needs to be done for the sequel anyway, and it makes sense to just keep developing & testing it where it already largely exists.
  • Animation & Cinematography – Lots in Chapter 18 and polishing out things in Chapter 17 for the other standard moments like the initial Hojo encounters. They are also likely able to do work wherever it's needed as it's needed, but would prioritize finishing things here, and just using more rough layouts on the sequel stuff until they can move over completely.
  • Polish, Lighting, & Setting Assets – Depending on if they flesh out the Chapter 16 NPC dialogue or not, we might see some world-building things improved a bit, but mostly I'd expect this to be more done as encounters and other moments that were planned out, but just not implemented yet.

It's still entirely possible that we never see any of that happen and they just move on. However, that would be antithetical to just about everything else that they've done on this project and seem to be wanting to do moving forward, so it would feel really weird EVEN if only because you know that as an internal development team, they feel passionate about what the end result of their work is – technological and other direct benefits notwithstanding.



X :neo:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Also, as if to underscore these things even more – all of the efforts around being able to develop in Unreal Engine 4 and move everything over seamlessly over to Unreal Engine 5 is another one of those things that the development team would have been aware of a long while back, and would be working towards over the lifecycle of the game. Again, if the end-goal is to have the entire game playable end-to-end as a single experience, these are the sort of future-proofing things that you want to have in place, so that it can stand up even well into in Next Gen.


We know that they already have super high-quality 3D art assets of characters, and because they do the FMVs, they likely have them for other things they've designed as well. I'm betting that this would allow them to straight out upgrade a lot of assets and textures (which are a notoriously odd bug in the game right now). Especially given that the story comes back to Midgar, it's understandable why you'd want to look into future-proofing those assets, so that you can upgrade and re-use them – with the added benefit that you could upgrade them in the earlier parts of the game as well if you plan out in lock step with the technology well enough.


Unreal Engine 5 also focuses on dynamic audio generation that adjusts audio that's adaptive to the environment (which looks like it's specifically positioned to integrate with Square Enix's MASTS audio system that they totally rebuilt and both leverage PS5's 3D Audio). On top of that, they show off contextual animations, which we know from the Inside Remake series that they're already using for matching spoken audio and facial expressions, and will make their work even easier. They also hit on the lighting, and there's a huge emphasis on the lighting in the Inside Remake videos as well, which means that they're thinking those things through, too. Plus, in the demo, you even see little loading blocks hidden when they squeeze the character through a gap, and when she climbs up the wall. Even opening the doorway is a loading gate for this demo, and these are the EXACT loading gate techniques that we see used in Remake.

This is what I meant when I was talking about the PS5-era graphics still being in the future for us, but being years old in terms of the development planning of Remake. I would be willing to bet money that Remake is going to be using ALL of this, but especially after they show off "look at this applied to an entire open world" shot at the end of the demo, and it looks overwhelmingly like the wastelands outside of Midgar.


This is EXACTLY the kind of thing I was talking about, but seeing what it might actually involve is just even more astounding than I'd imagined.



X:neo:
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
I doubt that they used loading gates in this demo, given the entire flying sequence at the end showed off exactly what has been talked about in streaming in high quality assets much faster from an SSD and everything else they talked about in that regard. I'd assume they included them for reasons other than that, like showing you a closeup of the textures and the lighting and such. I doubt these things will ever fully go away because devs might still use them for "cinematic flavor" or whatever.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I doubt that they used loading gates in this demo, given the entire flying sequence at the end showed off exactly what has been talked about in streaming in high quality assets much faster from an SSD and everything else they talked about in that regard. I'd assume they included them for reasons other than that, like showing you a closeup of the textures and the lighting and such. I doubt these things will ever fully go away because devs might still use them for "cinematic flavor" or whatever.

That flying sequence IS great, but we also don't know how much optimization it's using for that sequence to pull off what they're doing there, and I'm betting that there's actually a lot of it. They are definitely showing off the "Spider-man flying like an F-16 through downtown" that they talked about with the SSD on PS5 – but it isn't really clear how much it takes to optimize things for whatever type of sequence they're doing.

Not only do they need to flag for different sequences occurring, but also they ditch and load up variable controls, and those are absolutely using these sorts of loading gates to add and remove things connected to those assets. They're also framing everything into sequences that are meant to optimize whatever particular thing they need, rather than using everything all at the same time. There's no sequence that's really showing them all off at once – like dashing through somewhere hyper fast, only to stop at random, zoom in with a flashlight on something with extreme detail, and cause animals to scatter out of a room that make sounds dynamically in that area. All those things are possible individually, but utilizing them still clearly requires a good bit of optimization and planning around what each segment needs and what it does.

  1. The first segment has globally adjustable lighting conditions, and a drone camera.
  2. The jump at 3:12 is a checkpoint, and the shimmy through at 3:40 is a loading gate.
  3. Those controls get removed, and we shift over to player climbing and interaction that uses all of the dynamic animation rigging for the character.
  4. The climb up the cliff at 4:20 & doorway at 5:20 are other checkpoints.
  5. The little player-character-controlled light spheres get loaded in, so that they can show off the beetles, and flashlight-type responsive lighting.
  6. The rocks falling at 5:47 is another hard checkpoint (note that her personal light turns off as a part of the reacting animation and her walking speed is very slow)
  7. The light gets manually reactivated at 6:03 to be able to look at the high quality statue.
  8. At 6:20, you see her walking speed drop down a little bit more, and that gets hidden by the "woah" looking around animation.
  9. 6:47 - 7:28 is a showcase of the lighting, but it's also a gate that's loading up the flight power & prepping the area outside.
  10. 7:32 – Just check the different in her movement speed, since she's no longer restricted to just walking speed.
  11. The sequence jumping off and flying is fantastic, but it's also using her moving at a set speed that's optimized for quickly loading and then dropping assets as they're passed. Even the final area she lands in is small, the camera pans to look at things around her rendered in an in-game cutscene focusing on panning to load up the assets immediately around her. Notably the camera keeps low and doesn't look back up at the area she came down from & flew through.

None of that's a criticism at all – quite the contrary. Depending on the types of tech that Remake is wanting to leverage & optimize for any particular sequence with UE5, it makes sense that they're putting in these exact types of checkpoints and loading gates in areas that currently seem sort of arbitrary, but make a lot more sense in this context.

Making sure that there are ways to do those things cinematically or as a part of the consistent storytelling medium is also critical, because it's part of the language of that storytelling that pairs up with the technological side. It's like when Remake is finding places to reuse character animations for different characters in other sequences, or when you're using an in-game cutscene to transition into something else. You're matching storytelling, cinematography, & technology. They're definitely still necessary – but they're also likely to be less critical depending on exactly how you're using this technology.


INQUIRY: Should I do a smaller follow-up article about these sorts of things with the UE5 demo vis-a-vis Remake?



X :neo:
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
I mean, just given it's a tech demo I'd consider it highly unlikely for them to put loading gates anywhere. Given that it's a highly controlled situation they wouldn't have to put anything in there to slow the player down for the game to load. They're already doing a controlled slow-walk tour anyway. I'd say it's more likely this is all very intentional to show off certain aspects of the engine.

edit: Looked up the specs again and yeah, PS5 can stream 5.5GB/s (raw) and 8 - 9GB/s compressed. That's 55 - 110 times faster than PS4 where the throughput is 100MB(!)/s. You could load an entire games worth of data in the ten seconds it takes to squeeze through the gap. I personally think it's doubtful to think a short tech demo still requires loading gates that slow you down for several seconds, with the first literally only a few meters after the beginning.
 
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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I mean, just given it's a tech demo I'd consider it highly unlikely for them to put loading gates anywhere. Given that it's a highly controlled situation they wouldn't have to put anything in there to slow the player down for the game to load. They're already doing a controlled slow-walk tour anyway. I'd say it's more likely this is all very intentional to show off certain aspects of the engine.

Even if you're capturing the footage on your own, when you're designing something that's an in-engine gameplay demo, your developers are still gonna have to go through and block things out exactly like they were making a real game. They're gonna test out the segments individually, and polish them so that they work. That involves hooking up things so that when you go to whatever place the correct controls and interactions trigger. That involves knowing which things are active, and when you do/don't need controls, assets, etc. to be referenced or ready to load. Loading up texture and assets is a big amount of processing which is primarily what the SSD & memory management on PS5 are for. That's all to prevent things like texture-pop-ins, or needing to keep the player limited based solely on asset availability. That's why it's mostly talking about maze-like maps in older games in Mark Cerny's presentation.

What existing loading gates are still doing is that if you're in an area where the player can't trigger certain actions, certain types of controls and other things need to be active, processing needs to be dedicated to particular types of interactions, and other things aren't needed. You check and remove controls behind flags and gates like that, so that you don't run into issues of players being able to access controls that should be locked out, or players don't reach locations improperly and trigger controls that they shouldn't be able to reach. That's why you also "gate" types of gameplay within certain areas – and in this case, that also means types of technology that they're showing off and controlling. If there's nothing to climb, you don't need to be able to pull up all the dynamic climbing animations at a moment's notice. That's why her light powers come and go at intervals, because the controls for those things are actually being added or removed. It's the things like not accidentally initiating combat controls in an area without any enemies present, or accidentally triggering a ladder climbing interaction when talking to someone.

Some of those things are pretty simple to turn on and off, but for things like light-controlling powers, that's going to take up a certain amount of processing power that you know needs to be available on the fly, so anything else that would cause a performance hit is gonna be temporarily shut off. Depending on the complexity and importance of those things, your loading gates are gonna be presented in different ways, and usually they'll also assist with tracking which assets need to be able to be referenced, etc.

This type of demo is supposed to be built as closely as possible to a real game, to help developers get an idea of how those things work, and how they'll likely need to be thinking about managing them when they can start implementing them.


(Also, I've definitely started writing a thing about this @msia2k75 ) :mon:



X :neo:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Again though, take a look at the actual speeds at which data can be streamed now and do the math. These are absolutely not loading gates.

edit: Alright, straight from the horses' mouth :wacky:


tl;dr – No it is not a streaming corridor, but I think it's still serving the same secondary functions that also get done in streaming corridors which are unrelated to managing textures & model assets in active memory, and I don't have a good catch-all term for that type of thing. Do you know of any? :mon:

I still absolutely think that they're using them to serve as checkpoints to flag/un-flag features & controls and also to enclose said areas for where said features are being used so that they're able to be fully optimized within a controlled area – because that's also how you'd have to test a demo like that to identify bugs.

That doesn't at all involve the same things as a "streaming corridor" which is all about dumping texture and model assets behind and loading assets in front of the player, so he's right not to call it that, and point out that it's not serving any asset loading function. Games still need checkpoints with varying degrees of specificity to ensure that interaction changes happen correctly – regardless of their loading speed. They also still need to look at CPU & GPU-processing loads and optimize their feature showcasing-specific areas to what types of things get used where.

Me generically calling them "loading gates" doesn't seem to be conveying what I'm trying to describe: I meant that they're "gates" in how they're physical checkpoints for enabling / disabling active flags. They're still "loading" & unloading up control sets & other things by triggering the changes in those flags, even when they're not stalling the player for time, having the player spending a certain amount of time in an area helps with certainty of checks. If all of Remake moved over to UE5, we probably wouldn't see every "hold triangle" interaction replaced with a "press triangle" interaction, nor every "streaming corridor" removed for a "clear pathway" – because those things serve multiple useful functions just by being longer, even if they're not necessary delay for specifically loading assets. They're a terrain obstacle that makes sense and gives an easy opportunity to perform a lot of useful checks about what things are active where. Longer & permanent interactions are safer & more consistent to check that everything is where you think it is & you're not getting a mis-click or unintentional interaction. Having these places trigger those flags would be needed in order to isolate areas for performance testing to make sure that all of those places in the demo run the same as they do when you're just running that one test area all on its own. Given that they're showing this in public now – it's pretty clear that it's a very polished and existing demo that they showed directly to developers, especially since it's running on a PS5 and we know they've already been working with devs to use UE5. So, it'd've been bug tested and performance optimized just like a tiny micro-game would, and those are all the sorts of safety & performance checks that you'd have that use existing game design language & feel like a current game that's more modernized (which is also important for the demo not to feel like smoke and mirrors).


I'm mainly thinking about this through the lens of Remake where we often see a lot of actual loading gates, and other ones enclosing areas that oftentimes aren't super asset-heavy. Since they're all cosmetically identical and of variable purpose, I've just been using "loading gates" as a generic catch-all term for them doing at least one or up to all of those things – since I can't actually go check the code for what they're doing. It could be loading & unloading assets, double checking where the player is, what flags are set, checking flags and & resetting flags that are in conflict if anything is set incorrectly, and all sorts of combinations of those things, where the specific differentiation isn't entirely all that helpful, and a generic term is more useful.

Also, in Remake, it's possible that those areas that are full of them seemingly unnecessarily might also be where they are setting up areas to have better optimization later with lighting, sounds, & other things on PS5 and/or with UE5, and without needing to actually change the physical layout. Closing them in now might not serve the same specific purpose initially on PS4 with UE4, but even on UE5/PS5 could maintain the same generic purpose of serving to check and gate in certain features, controls, optimizations, and trigger flag changes when you move through them, but also potentially have checks for future improvements that don't need to be built later, but just hooked up.






X:neo:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Poking around in Chapter 18 again but since I can't actually capture that myself, I just wanted to add this in here.

The party conversation right before the Singularity is another scrapped Party swap segment.

Before I covered how there're repetitive Bench checkpoints in Chapter 16 & Chapter 17, but I found out today that there are hidden development warp points in Chapter 18 as well. They appear as these little anomalous points of light that you can see over on the left side of the screen in this screenshot:

DevShortcut.png


What's especially interesting and why I'm 99.9% certain that they're dev checkpoints is because when you start fighting the 3 Whispers for the final time, you're on a specific field area, and this isn't there (which you can see by looking around at the footage here), however as soon as the Whisper Bahamut transformation occurs – this little light anomaly appears. The same thing happens as soon as you hit the phase transition for Sephiroth where the ground breaks out from under you as well. They're all placed in the field area, so that you could load/interact with them, but they're also above the gameplay area, so that you won't collide with them, and they're out of the way enough that you'd never notice them unless you went looking for those things... like me.

:awesomonster:

Anyhow, hopefully that's somewhat interesting to some of you fine folks.



X :neo:
 

Kain424

Old Man in the Room
It's still entirely possible that we never see any of that happen and they just move on. However, that would be antithetical to just about everything else that they've done on this project and seem to be wanting to do moving forward, so it would feel really weird EVEN if only because you know that as an internal development team, they feel passionate about what the end result of their work is – technological and other direct benefits notwithstanding.

So we've reached the end of the year, with an oddly minimal update in between. Are we thinking they're going to put out some "Definitive Edition" now or "just move on" to the PS5? Maybe both? Where are we at with what they're likely to be up to?
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
So we've reached the end of the year, with an oddly minimal update in between. Are we thinking they're going to put out some "Definitive Edition" now or "just move on" to the PS5? Maybe both? Where are we at with what they're likely to be up to?

So, the oddly minimal update is something I covered in more tl;dr in another thread where that's the exact sort of thing I'd expect to see once the focus on getting the PS5 optimizations finished, because that requires leaving the PS4 version in an untouched state, so that they can performance test between both versions. That tiny update patching out the game's only soft-lock bug is what you'd expect from a day-1 patch on a normal release, so for all intents and purposes, the ACTUAL development of the Final Fantasy VII Remake game really only wrapped up near the end of October.

If they're going to focus on any updates and other things to have a sort of FFXV-like update of the later content, it wouldn't've really started happening until then. Also – because work on different things happens by different teams at different times, they're still definitely also working on the next game. There is a lot of overlap between the unfinished parts in Remake (party swap being the biggest factor) that are requirements for the next game, so that work's still all just development synergy, and I don't think that it's a huge gap in progress from what I can infer from the outside. Also, with the release of Sephiroth for SSB Ultimate, it's clear that they're interested in keeping people aware of Final Fantasy VII actively, and not wanting people to feel lost, so I think that expecting an update to sort of pop up is still very much something I'm expecting at some point. I'm not expecting it on the time scale I was before just based on that information, but I still think that it's almost certainly something that'll happen still.

I think that what's most likely the current focus is the Unreal Engine 5 stuff. Because of the work that it took to get the PS5 stuff sorted, the next milestone that they want to be able to hit as soon as it's a thing is all the UE5 stuff. That'll get people to come back to the game JUST because it's prettier, and a lot of the bug fixing around the game's texture weirdness is gonna be tied up into those technology developments anyway. Whether that coincides with the content or not is probably just down to which teams are free to work on what when and how much of whatever thing can they complete within whatever windows work – since I bet that just like PS5 launch, their UE5 compatibility launch is a date that they don't control, but rather are beholden to.

Having the game be able to display the full capability of PS5 & UE5 as soon as those debut are a HUGE deal for their partnerships and responsibilities to those companies, so while that's not super interesting to the stuff that's just consumer-based like most game launches, it definitely takes precedence here because we don't have hard launch dates, so there's no reason to rush any content update since they can chose to market and package that however they want. Even just the things for adding in playable Red XIII are super complex, but once that's done, they can also use it as a way to potentially preview something about the next title depending on things with the overall development. That's all just seeing how things go and managing accordingly though.

So not much from this end other than some technical tl;dr to say – everything is still going exactly as expected insofar as I can tell & no change in my expectations whatsoever. :awesomonster:



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