Final Fantasy VII: The First Soldier
- Thread starter Lulcielid
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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The only time Hojo actively sought out to experiment on random everyday normal people in earnest was when Shinra needed the survivors of Nibelheim's massacre to be disposed of.
Actively prowling out-of-the-way backwoods and mountains for samples when Shinra grinds out people for the Science Department on the daily makes absolutely zero sense. Nevermind the nest of samples that exist in Deepground and SOLDIER.
Actively prowling out-of-the-way backwoods and mountains for samples when Shinra grinds out people for the Science Department on the daily makes absolutely zero sense. Nevermind the nest of samples that exist in Deepground and SOLDIER.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Oh his dad is definitely just a normal guy...but Cloud's grandfather is Emperor Palpatine.
Makoeyes987
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You mean Cloud's great-great-great-grandfather was the legendary Al-Bhed entrepreneur named Rin.
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
I don't think it would "go against everything that makes Cloud 'Cloud.'" Having his dad fall prey to some Shinra nefariousness doesn't change anything about how Cloud was raised or who he turned out to be in the original continuity. If your stance is that any sort of added significance to Cloud's family's backstory detracts from his normalcy/mediocrity, then I guess I simply don't agree. If his father were a SOLDIER or if Cloud were actually the President's son, then I'd definitely say that crosses the line and violates certain fundamental aspects of his character.By your own admission, it literally goes against everything that makes Cloud "Cloud". So, how is that equivalent to any other development?
It would require all the suspension of disbelief one would be reasonably expected to give because it flies thematically and narratively against what we know of the story and Hojo's sourcing of his experiments. Hojo just randomly found Cloud's dad in the mountains because he just was wandering around there and happened upon him for reasons? Who else did he secretly capture? Cloud's twin brother?
Thematically and narratively, I think it does fit surprisingly well. The details and circumstances of Hojo's research are already rapidly changing in the Remake continuity. I think logic compels us to ask why this is so, and to seek meaningful ways and reasons for which these "retcons" could impact the larger narrative. Cloud's father wandering up to the reactor and seeing something he shouldn't is a perfectly plausible reason for him to become Hojo's first Reunion subject. The question beyond that is whether you think this additional dagger in Cloud's heart accomplishes anything meaningful for the narrative.
Makoeyes987
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Hojo being the center of an additional main character's tragedy, while already being the main source of Cloud's (and many others) existential tragedy and twisted fate is simply thematic and narrative overkill. Every painful event and trauma has to involve Hojo manufacturing Cloud's fate into who he is in VII? Did Hojo also kill Cloud's first pet too? Did Hojo sabotage the Shinra 26? How much more mayhem has Hojo wrought in every character's life? Such slim plausibility and shrinking of the world building hurts the narrative. It's soap opera logic.
Cloud's Dad being part of a Jenova experiment definitely make him significant. How would it not? He'd essentially embody the trope, "like father like son." It'd be written into Cloud's history. Hojo now becomes his familial nemesis. It's the narrative context of Cloud being drawn to Jenova even before he's enlisted. It wasn't just a cruel twist of fate.
It's equivalent to Joe Chill as the Joker, killing Bruce Wayne's parents and creating his own nemesis.
Cloud's Dad being part of a Jenova experiment definitely make him significant. How would it not? He'd essentially embody the trope, "like father like son." It'd be written into Cloud's history. Hojo now becomes his familial nemesis. It's the narrative context of Cloud being drawn to Jenova even before he's enlisted. It wasn't just a cruel twist of fate.
It's equivalent to Joe Chill as the Joker, killing Bruce Wayne's parents and creating his own nemesis.
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
I agree, I think the issue is whether a development like that would be narrative overkill. It's a tradeoff. On the one hand, you flesh out your world and the interconnectedness of its characters (and Remake sure is playing up the theme of fate, even more than the OG), but on the other you risk overloading a conflict that is already extremely substantiated. Do we need any more reason to hate Shinra and Hojo? Is the cool parallel of Cloud's father being the first Reunion subject and Cloud being the last worth hammering a nail into a coffin that doesn't need any because it uses latches?
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
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- The Engineer
The biggest retcon I have found so far in Remake is the starting date of the Reunion Project. In the OG (and all the way up to and including Crisis Core!) Hojo never made any Sephiroth Copies *before* Sephiroth died. It was only after Sephiroth died that he decided to test the Reunion Theory and made Copies from the Nibelheim survivors.
Remake shifts the time Hojo started making Sephiroth Copies *decades* earlier. By the time Aerith is a kid living in the Shinra Building, Hojo is *already* making Sephiroth Copy #24. Instead of it being people from Nibelheim, it's random people he picked up in the Slums.... and seemingly anyone who gets really severe mako poisoning. Oh, and at least one SOLDIER, but that SOLDIER has a *really* low number... and given what 1st SOLDIER has revealed about how long it took to get the SOLDIER mixture right, that's significant.
It's worth pointing out that the *latest* information we have on what makes a Sephiroth Copy a Sephiroth Copy is that they are exposed to mako and specially treated Jenova Cells. Which... just so happens to be what makes S-Type SOLDIERs be S-Type SOLDIERs. The only... real difference I can find between SOLDIERs and Sephiroth Copies is that Sephiroth Copies are mentally too weak to *not* get mako poisioning... or withstand Jenova's influence. SOLDIER meanwhile are mentally strong enough to pull through all of that with their own will still intact.
This leads to an interesting situation where Hojo could *easily* have been making Sephiroth Copies since Sephiroth was created... and the experiments to make SOLDIER would also have probably made a lot of Sephiroth Copies in the process of figuring out what the perfect SOLDIER mix was. And both of these events would be taking place at more or less the same time.
There's also some... interesting... bits in the Ultimania Omega that indicate Hojo *had* wanted to test out the Reunion Theory long before he actually got around to doing it. Which would go a long way to explain why Remake felt okay moving the Reunion Theory's start date back so early. Instead of having Hojo be reactive to the opportunities that spring up, they're making him more proactive and setting up circumstances long before he can make use of them.
Remake shifts the time Hojo started making Sephiroth Copies *decades* earlier. By the time Aerith is a kid living in the Shinra Building, Hojo is *already* making Sephiroth Copy #24. Instead of it being people from Nibelheim, it's random people he picked up in the Slums.... and seemingly anyone who gets really severe mako poisoning. Oh, and at least one SOLDIER, but that SOLDIER has a *really* low number... and given what 1st SOLDIER has revealed about how long it took to get the SOLDIER mixture right, that's significant.
It's worth pointing out that the *latest* information we have on what makes a Sephiroth Copy a Sephiroth Copy is that they are exposed to mako and specially treated Jenova Cells. Which... just so happens to be what makes S-Type SOLDIERs be S-Type SOLDIERs. The only... real difference I can find between SOLDIERs and Sephiroth Copies is that Sephiroth Copies are mentally too weak to *not* get mako poisioning... or withstand Jenova's influence. SOLDIER meanwhile are mentally strong enough to pull through all of that with their own will still intact.
This leads to an interesting situation where Hojo could *easily* have been making Sephiroth Copies since Sephiroth was created... and the experiments to make SOLDIER would also have probably made a lot of Sephiroth Copies in the process of figuring out what the perfect SOLDIER mix was. And both of these events would be taking place at more or less the same time.
There's also some... interesting... bits in the Ultimania Omega that indicate Hojo *had* wanted to test out the Reunion Theory long before he actually got around to doing it. Which would go a long way to explain why Remake felt okay moving the Reunion Theory's start date back so early. Instead of having Hojo be reactive to the opportunities that spring up, they're making him more proactive and setting up circumstances long before he can make use of them.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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It's a trade that offers nothing. Cloud's Dad being a Jenova or Shinra experiment is meaningless filler. That kind of interconnectedness does not improve world building at all, it actually shrinks it. Not everything is a vast web of narrative conspiracy.
Nothing can happen in FFVII without it directly being a consequence of either Hojo, Sephiroth or Jenova? There were no other tragedies or just random events that happened in the world except that? Kitase himself even rebuked such overzealous interconnection when he pushed back on fan theories about KOTR being the actual Cetra who fought Jenova in the past and sealed it away.
Not everything has a hard connection to the core plot of the story. That's not possible. The fact that Cloud already lost his Mom to Sephiroth, his dreams to Hojo, and almost lost his whole identity to Jenova is already a truck load of trauma.
Now we're supposed to believe Hojo also turned his Dad into a sample? Did Hojo also kill his dog too?
Like real life, sometimes there's just unknowable ambiguity. The writers don't just explain and connect everything like that.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
By your own admission, it literally goes against everything that makes Cloud "Cloud". So, how is that equivalent to any other development?
It would require all the suspension of disbelief one would be reasonably expected to give because it flies thematically and narratively against what we know of the story and Hojo's sourcing of his experiments. Hojo just randomly found Cloud's dad in the mountains because he just was wandering around there and happened upon him for reasons? Who else did he secretly capture? Cloud's twin brother?
No, that's because I'm trying to reconcile:
- a guy who wanted to come back home (didn't leave willingly)
- his stuff was found (but not his body)
However, I think the dates do not match honestly to have Shinra interacting with Cloud's father. But, he may have had an accident and someone would have put his stuff in a pathway the mountain to indicate that he did die. To me something like this is extremely plausible. I never thought it was Hojo, though he may have, not for a Sephiroth copy test, but for a monster test. But I don't think he was around. By the time Cloud was born, wasn't the village already tiny because Shinra had practically left?
Makoeyes987
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I honestly just think a random Nibel Dragon gobbled his ass up, and he got a game over.
The amount of monsters chillin' in the mountains means the average adventurer is just free man-burger helper for all. You don't go hiking in an open air dungeon without a party and that's what he did.
The amount of monsters chillin' in the mountains means the average adventurer is just free man-burger helper for all. You don't go hiking in an open air dungeon without a party and that's what he did.
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
A bit of a digression, but does anyone know if someone's compared all the black robes' models from Remake and Intermission? Are they all identical aside from the tattoos?
Makoeyes987
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No they have subtle different models and appearances. One even has a beard.
Tetsujin
he/they
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- Tets
No they have subtle different models and appearances. One even has a beard.
TIL
I never took a close look and woulda just assumed they're all copypasted apart from the numbers
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
Same! I totally assumed they'd be identical. Do you know which one is bearded @Makoeyes987 ? It must be one of the Intermission ones, right?
Makoeyes987
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- Smooth Criminal
Yes, it's one of the Episode Intermission Sephiroth Copies Yuffie runs by in Chapter 1. It's either the last or second to last one she sees.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Can't be a dragon, they started showing up once he was well dead lol. Cloud wasn't in Nibelheim anymore. The mountains weren't *that* dangerous, though bad monsters could still appear and kill you I guess. But I do think someone witnessed his end and we're going to learn about it in Remake. That grand opened door, man. Nojima left it like that on purpose.
Shademp
420
The first one Yuffie encounters, tattoo #11, has no beard.
Looks to have longer hair though than for example tattoo #2 in the main game.
As for the second one Yuffie encounters, tattoo #16, I haven't found good close-up footage to confirm their hair status.
As for the second one Yuffie encounters, tattoo #16, I haven't found good close-up footage to confirm their hair status.
Yeah. Remember the guy with SILVER HAIR in the trailer? Just a random dude, LOL!
KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
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Not nearly enough
Cait Sith: “Go easy on him, you guys. He’s had a tough life. When he was six years old…his dad f***ed his mom.”
Barret: “…What?”
Cait Sith: “I’m sorry, friend, but it’s time they learned your tragic backstory. Cloud doesn’t trust anyone because his dad f***ed his mom and he couldn’t do anything to stop it.”
Barret: “…That doesn’t make any sense.”
Cait Sith: “I know. How can the person you trust do that to the only other person you love?”
Barret: “Cait Sith, everyone’s dad f***ed everyone’s mom.”
Cait Sith: “Huh?”
Barret: “That’s how it works, stupid. Our dads f*** our moms.”
Cait Sith: “Oh, RIGHT. So does that mean your dad f***ed YOUR mom, Barret? Huh?”
Barret: “YES! My dad f***ed my mom! That’s why I’m here!”
Cait Sith: “…Don’t steal his backstory, dude, that’s not cool.”
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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To be fair, Shiva wasn't a Cetra warrior who stopped Jenova, she was a summon beast/eidolon/esper/etc who the Cetra called upon to keep the planet's wound inflicted by Jenova's impact from killing it.
The Cetra communicating and conjuring the defacto deities from the lifestream, who we know are to be able to control it, doesn't fly in the face of it's world building or structure. That's proper expansion and explaination of it's history. That's the archetypal roles summons have had since FFIV.
The Cetra communicating and conjuring the defacto deities from the lifestream, who we know are to be able to control it, doesn't fly in the face of it's world building or structure. That's proper expansion and explaination of it's history. That's the archetypal roles summons have had since FFIV.
JBedford
Pro Adventurer
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- JBed
This was never how I interpreted the quote about Shiva. Taking it as an event that actually happened flies in the face of what they say in FFVII. In FFVII they explain the north is cold because the planet's energy gathered to heal the injury, leaving everything around to wither.
I initially read that quote as a folktale explanation shared by regular humans for how the Great Glacier came to be.
The Cetra cultivated the land to try to heal the wound. If a Shiva ever did exist I would have thought she'd have been some significant Cetra whose role in things got significantly exaggerated.
The legend of a queen of ice staunching the great wound became a part of the lifestream, which in turn crystalised into Materia giving form to the Shiva of legend.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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