Final Fantasy XII Manga & One Manga

kamiknx

Lv. 1 Adventurer
As you all probably know the manga is already being translated by Something-or-other Scanlations.

I'm here to request to you all some help to bump up the topic at One Manga forums requesting the addition of the manga on their website.

Everyone is invited to help, please post here
http://forum.onemanga.com/showthread.php?p=2899198

Final Fantasy XII (ファイナルファンタジーXII)
http://somethingorotherscans.com/ffxii.html

Mangafox has already added the manga
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/final_fantasy_xii/

Info
http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=6710

Description
From Ramsus-kun:
This is the story of a world called Ivalice. It is a time when the existence of magick is still commonplace, and soaring airships cover the vast sky. Princess Ashe has vowed to restore her ruined country. Together with a few companions, she waits for an opportunity to strike back. A direct adaptation of the hit RPG!

Type
Manga

Related Series
N/A

Associated Names
ファイナルファンタジーXII
Final Fantasy 12

Groups Scanlating
Ramsus-kun
Something-Or-Other Scanslations

Latest Release(s)
v.1 c.3 by Something-Or-Other Scanslations (1d ago)
v.1 c.2 by Something-Or-Other Scanslations (26d ago)
v.1 c.1 by Something-Or-Other Scanslations (86d ago)
Search for all releases of this series

Status in Country of Origin
4 Volumes (Ongoing)

Completely Scanlated?
No

Anime Start/End Chapter
N/A

User Reviews
N/A

User Rating
Average: 7.6 / 10.0 (9 votes)

Genre
Action Adventure Fantasy Shounen Supernatural
 

Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
You've got my support! :) I loved XII.

I'll try to get over there ASAP, this weekend.

Is this a doujinshi, or an actual product to come out?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Here's where I ask "Why are they doing a manga of this?" Thought it was retarded with KH, think it's just as retarded now.

Thanks for the link, though.
 

Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
I registered under the name 'Arianna' - if you want to add me as a friend or whatever.

:)
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
Not sure if I'm down with the way the manga artist draws peoples' faces but it seems cute. The characters may be a bit OOC but at least they have more personality than in the actual game. :monster:
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
I like how the manga seems to give a bit more detail on certain facts of the story. There were a few things that I didn't quite understand myself. lol
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
Although I am noticing lots of monster/enemy-on-chocobo violence. Nooo spare the chocobos. :(
 

Ghost X

Moderator
Comics are good n' stuff, but I'd still prefer to read an illustrated novel on Ivalice's complete history any day. Unfortunately it don't exist, and wikipedia's article on Ivalice's history just doesn't satisfy me, but only leaves me craving more :(.
 

Super Mario

IT'S A ME!
AKA
Jesse McCree. I feel like a New Man
It's good and all but XII is missing Reks' story. I like it detailed from start to finish y0. it looks like it just started halfway.
 

Anzu Mazaki

Pro Adventurer
Hasn't this manga been out for awhile? I see it at the bookstore all the time, for the past2 years or so. Surprising that they just started to translate it. But I'll read it nonetheless XD
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
It's good and all but XII is missing Reks' story. I like it detailed from start to finish y0. it looks like it just started halfway.

The three chapters poster were all from the same volume with Ashe on the cover. I know that one of the volumes has Vaan, so I'm assuming the next will explain about Reks in flashback?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
WTF is wrong with a manga adaption of an FF story?

What's your primary issue with FFXIII? That it lacks a particular artistic element, yes?

So, with the assumption that film combines all the art forms, and that video games take that a step further by adding the immersive element of interaction, FFXII being knocked down at least two and a half elements (no music, no interaction, reduced visual presentation, no actual actors) is -- in my opinion -- simply fucking stupid.

But that's just my opinion. :monster:

Keep in mind this sort of thing is the same reason I prefer the "Trigun" anime to the manga, despite the manga being better in most respects.

But, then, the possibilities lent it by its status as a TV show are also what made "Cowboy Bebop" infinitely superior to what any manga of it could have ever been, so my position isn't entirely without merit. Again, in my not so humble opinion.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
What's your primary issue with FFXIII? That it lacks a particular artistic element, yes?

So, with the assumption that film combines all the art forms, and that video games take that a step further by adding the immersive element of interaction, FFXII being knocked down at least two and a half elements (no music, no interaction, reduced visual presentation, no actual actors) is -- in my opinion -- simply fucking stupid.

Dude, its a damn manga. It's not a 60 dollar Blu-Ray disc that you're expected to invest serious time and money into, in order to further understand and immerse yourself into the plot. A manga adaptation of an already told story only serves as a quick, one-shot piece of entertainment that allows the manga-ka to tell their own variation of the story, and take some liberties with the story to allow fans to see their favorite characters in differing scenarios and situations. See, KH, KH:CoM, KH2, and KH: 358/2. They hardly take themselves seriously and are mostly for fun, and to allow manga-ka to get their feet wet in the industry and make a name for themselves giving the fans a new variation of the story they love.

It's just for fun. You know, what games and shit are supposed to be. :monster:

But that's just my opinion. :monster:

It's bad and you should feel bad.

Keep in mind this sort of thing is the same reason I prefer the "Trigun" anime to the manga, despite the manga being better in most respects.

But, then, the possibilities lent it by its status as a TV show are also what made "Cowboy Bebop" infinitely superior to what any manga of it could have ever been, so my position isn't entirely without merit. Again, in my not so humble opinion.

...The Trigun anime is good, but it can't even hold a derringer up to the original manga. What...what's wrong with you? You're exemplifying what's wrong with American culture. Reading is just as good, as watching the eye candy on a screen. People like you is what comic industries fear most.

Cowboy Bebop's anime was better, but that's because they had creator and directorial skill that surpassed the scope of what they originally told before. But TV/movie adaptions of print media isn't always inherently better than source material. Not by a long shot.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Dude, its a damn manga. It's not a 60 dollar Blu-Ray disc that you're expected to invest serious time and money into, in order to further understand and immerse yourself into the plot. A manga adaptation of an already told story only serves as a quick, one-shot piece of entertainment that allows the manga-ka to tell their own variation of the story, and take some liberties with the story to allow fans to see their favorite characters in differing scenarios and situations. See, KH, KH:CoM, KH2, and KH: 358/2. They hardly take themselves seriously and are mostly for fun, and to allow manga-ka to get their feet wet in the industry and make a name for themselves giving the fans a new variation of the story they love.

It's just for fun. You know, what games and shit are supposed to be. :monster:

Okay, so then we agree that portraying a superior or equally awesome telling of the story isn't even a twinkle in the eyes of anyone involved? Cool. :monster:

But I'll agree that they can be fun, and that there's nothing wrong with making something just for that purpose. Take "Dragonball Evolution," for instance.

Horrible movie. But it knew that and didn't try to be high literature. It didn't take itself seriously at all. And, thus, it was fun, and, therefore, great.

Mako said:
It's bad and you should feel bad.

No u.

Mako said:
...The Trigun anime is good, but it can't even hold a derringer up to the original manga. What...what's wrong with you? You're exemplifying what's wrong with American culture. Reading is just as good, as watching the eye candy on a screen. People like you is what comic industries fear most.

Cowboy Bebop's anime was better, but that's because they had creator and directorial skill that surpassed the scope of what they originally told before. But TV/movie adaptions of print media isn't always inherently better than source material. Not by a long shot.

I'm not saying that film adaptations are always superior. They're most certainly not. Take "Watchmen" as the most ready of examples.

What I am saying, though, is that the medium itself -- with its visual and auditory stimuli -- is more powerful -- and that's just simple psychology -- so basically neutering a powerfully told story and then sending it back out bothers me.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Okay, so then we agree that portraying a superior or equally awesome telling of the story isn't even a twinkle in the eyes of anyone involved? Cool. :monster:

Not per se. They aren't trying to tell an exact duplicate of the story told in FFXII. They're telling their own variation and interpretation of it. It's going to be different, and going to be limited in scope thanks to the format. But that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable or entertaining. It's not like its meant to be taken in place of the original game, or as some sort of connection to it, in terms of continuity. It shouldn't stray too far from the source material, but it is going to stray to allow some room for the manga-ka's differing take of the story.

But I'll agree that they can be fun, and that there's nothing wrong with making something just for that purpose. Take "Dragonball Evolution," for instance.

Dragonball Evolution is a sin against nature. No, if you're gonna take the franchise and run it through a meat processor, and make it so completely removed from the source material that it only vaguely resembles the franchise its derived from, you probably shouldn't bother touching it in the first place. See also the Super Mario Bros. movie, Street Fighter: The Legend of Chun-Li, the Doom movie, and a shit load of other crap quality video game/anime movies.

Horrible movie. But it knew that and didn't try to be high literature. It didn't take itself seriously at all. And, thus, it was fun, and, therefore, great.

It didn't even try to be a fucking dime-novel or pulp magazine, either. It was shit in every sense. The humor was trash, the acting was trash, and the effects were dated and weak. I will agree it didn't take itself seriously at all. And that was the problem. It wasn't fun, it was painful. It was painfully obvious it was a cheaply made cash-in with no regard for the source material. Again, if you're not even going to try, then don't bother touching shit that's not yours. You don't have to treat the source material as the Bible but at least respect it.

I'm not saying that film adaptations are always superior. They're most certainly not. Take "Watchmen" as the most ready of examples.

What I am saying, though, is that the medium itself -- with its visual and auditory stimuli -- is more powerful -- and that's just simple psychology -- so basically neutering a powerfully told story and then sending it back out bothers me.

Watchmen was one of the better film adaptions of comic books I've seen in awhile. Aside from some points it strays from the source material due to time, I'm not seeing why its bad. Its not superior, but it tries its best to capture the theme and storyline of its source.

You raise a good point, but any good book or comic can achieve the same impact if its story and writing is strong enough to carry it. I'll remember a good book a lot more than a mediocre movie. Even if my senses are being stimulated more by said movie. In the end, its how much a story reaches you and burns itself into your mind, than just how much stimuli you get out the experience.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Not per se. They aren't trying to tell an exact duplicate of the story told in FFXII. They're telling their own variation and interpretation of it. It's going to be different, and going to be limited in scope thanks to the format. But that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable or entertaining. It's not like its meant to be taken in place of the original game, or as some sort of connection to it, in terms of continuity. It shouldn't stray too far from the source material, but it is going to stray to allow some room for the manga-ka's differing take of the story.

"Differing take" makes it sound like they have schizophrenia. :monster:

Mako said:
Dragonball Evolution is a sin against nature. No, if you're gonna take the franchise and run it through a meat processor, and make it so completely removed from the source material that it only vaguely resembles the franchise its derived from, you probably shouldn't bother touching it in the first place. See also the Super Mario Bros. movie, Street Fighter: The Legend of Chun-Li, the Doom movie, and a shit load of other crap quality video game/anime movies.

I thought "Super Mario Bros," "Street Figher" (the one with Raul Julia) and "Mortal Kombat" were fun. Hell, I'd actually call "Mortal Kombat" good. I liked it enough to buy it.

"MK: Annihilation" sucked, though, as did "Double Dragon."

I'm still waiting on that "Tetris" movie, though. That could be promising.

Mako said:
It didn't even try to be a fucking dime-novel or pulp magazine, either. It was shit in every sense. The humor was trash, the acting was trash, and the effects were dated and weak. I will agree it didn't take itself seriously at all. And that was the problem. It wasn't fun, it was painful. It was painfully obvious it was a cheaply made cash-in with no regard for the source material.

I think it did have regard for the source material, and that was why they didn't take it serioiusly.

Besides, Emmy Rossum was cute as fuck in DE. And as far as it goes, being a good actor, there was nothing lacking in her effort, either -- which you can't really say about the rest of the cast.

Except maybe Chow Yun-Fat. He turned in a great performance as Chow Yun-Fat.

Mako said:
Again, if you're not even going to try, then don't bother touching shit that's not yours.

I'm sure they payed for the license.

Mako said:
Watchmen was one of the better film adaptions of comic books I've seen in awhile. Aside from some points it strays from the source material due to time, I'm not seeing why its bad. Its not superior, but it tries its best to capture the theme and storyline of its source.

If that was the best it could do to capture the atmosphere, it missed the mark horribly. For one thing, the production values were way too high. They should have given it a much grainier look and diminished lighting -- and, I don't know, made it look like the fucking 80s.

There's a number of ways they could have done a better job with that, but the most interesting way is one they obviously never considered. When I look at the comics' panels and imagine them in moving form, I'm like, "Hey, it's 80s production values." If they'd actually gone for that, it would have been clever and actually fit the setting way better.

Not to mention it would have indicated a more appropriate degree of nuance given to a work that, in its original form, was extremely nuanced.

In any event, a "Watchmen" adaptation never had a chance to be comparable to the original from the beginning. There's so much to the telling of "Watchmen," the comic, that relies on the very medium itself.

Really, this is a case where those who argue for the theory of medium specificity are correct: There's some things that one medium can do that another never could.

That said, I will repeat an offense I once remarked before -- the film of "V for Vendetta" was much better than its comic counterpart, and Alan Moore needs to watch it again if he still disagrees.

Mako said:
You raise a good point, but any good book or comic can achieve the same impact if its story and writing is strong enough to carry it. I'll remember a good book a lot more than a mediocre movie. Even if my senses are being stimulated more by said movie. In the end, its how much a story reaches you and burns itself into your mind, than just how much stimuli you get out the experience.

That's the thing -- effective use of the extra stimuli means you'll get more out of the experience, and it will burn itself into your mind better.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I thought "Super Mario Bros," "Street Figher" (the one with Raul Julia) and "Mortal Kombat" were fun. Hell, I'd actually call "Mortal Kombat" good. I liked it enough to buy it.

"MK: Annihilation" sucked, though, as did "Double Dragon."

I'm still waiting on that "Tetris" movie, though. That could be promising.

See, if I didn't like you so much, and know for sure, you're one of the best posters here, I'd literally have to stop debating with you now with what you said regarding Dragonball Evolution, Super Maro Bros and V for Vendetta, on sheer principle of taste.

Handing any positive praise to those sins against celluloid seriously, is credibility suicide. Your argument in essence gave up the ghost with you defending the Super Mario Bros movie and Dragonball Evolution in the same thread.

You gained some credibility back with saying the Street Fighter movie with Raul Julia was fun (although one would have to seriously ponder if Raul Julia would truly wish to be remembered for his performance in that B movie). And acknowledging Mortal Kombat: Annihilation was shit. At least we know you have limits now.

As for the first Mortal Kombat movie, yeah. It was fun, decent, and definitely one of the moderately better video game adaptations out there. Good though? Ehhh....



I think it did have regard for the source material, and that was why they didn't take it serioiusly.

Besides, Emmy Rossum was cute as fuck in DE. And as far as it goes, being a good actor, there was nothing lacking in her effort, either -- which you can't really say about the rest of the cast.

Except maybe Chow Yun-Fat. He turned in a great performance as Chow Yun-Fat.


........

There's not taking yourself seriously, and literally flinging spunk on a piece of paper while drunk and calling it a script. Dragonball Evolution did the latter. And when you put Goku, in a fucking modern, high school setting, and call that his backstory, you've lost the game of "Source Material Respect." No, Tres. No.

You're thinking with your cock again, Tres. Emmy Rossum was worthless. I'm sure she did her best, but you can't polish a turd.



I'm sure they payed for the license.

.........



If that was the best it could do to capture the atmosphere, it missed the mark horribly. For one thing, the production values were way too high. They should have given it a much grainier look and diminished lighting -- and, I don't know, made it look like the fucking 80s.

There's a number of ways they could have done a better job with that, but the most interesting way is one they obviously never considered. When I look at the comics' panels and imagine them in moving form, I'm like, "Hey, it's 80s production values." If they'd actually gone for that, it would have been clever and actually fit the setting way better.

...So they should use outdated filming techniques to depict the 80's, to make it fit the 80's setting more? What? That's ridiculous. American Psycho, one of my favorite movies depicting the hollow and vapidness of the upscale Yuppie lifestyle, didn't need to make itself looking like an 80's budget B-movie to get the setting across. The fact Watchmen used current cinematic effects, to tell the story doesn't detract from its authenticity at all. Especially when they used an 80's derived soundtrack, mofo.

By that logic, Dragonball Evolution should've had itself take place in the 80's and 90's since that's when Dragonball's setting took place. Guess they missed the mark on that one too. :monster:


In any event, a "Watchmen" adaptation never had a chance to be comparable to the original from the beginning. There's so much to the telling of "Watchmen," the comic, that relies on the very medium itself.

That's very true. That's why I said they did their best and knew they needed line themselves up as close to the source material possible.

Really, this is a case where those who argue for the theory of medium specificity are correct: There's some things that one medium can do that another never could.

That, is very true.

That said, I will repeat an offense I once remarked before -- the film of "V for Vendetta" was much better than its comic counterpart, and Alan Moore needs to watch it again if he still disagrees.

..........

..........

..........



That's the thing -- effective use of the extra stimuli means you'll get more out of the experience, and it will burn itself into your mind better.

Not necessarily. A vapid waste of sounds, visuals, and dialogue isn't going to burn itself into many people's mind at all. Unless they're children.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
See, if I didn't like you so much, and know for sure, you're one of the best posters here, I'd literally have to stop debating with you now with what you said regarding Dragonball Evolution, Super Maro Bros and V for Vendetta, on sheer principle of taste.

I can't help it that you're wrong.

Besides, your egregious offenses -- great enough to make the heavenly host disperse that celestial rose they form around God as they flee -- in defending artistic smut like Before Crisis and Crisis Core means it's only fair that you continue this discussion. :monster:

Mako said:
Handing any positive praise to those sins against celluloid seriously, is credibility suicide. Your argument in essence gave up the ghost with you defending the Super Mario Bros movie and Dragonball Evolution in the same thread.

Like Casper, this ghost is friendly and ain't going anywhere. :awesome:

Mako said:
You gained some credibility back with saying the Street Fighter movie with Raul Julia was fun (although one would have to seriously ponder if Raul Julia would truly wish to be remembered for his performance in that B movie).

If he'd known it would be his last film, I think he'd have done it anyway.

Mako said:
And acknowledging Mortal Kombat: Annihilation was shit. At least we know you have limits now.

Yes, at least some of us do.

Mako said:
There's not taking yourself seriously, and literally flinging spunk on a piece of paper while drunk and calling it a script.

XD

Mako said:
You're thinking with your cock again, Tres. Emmy Rossum was worthless.

Well, I know I would have liked it less if she weren't there. Translation: You lose.

Deal with it!

Mako said:
I'm sure she did her best, but you can't polish a turd.

I'd polish that all fucking day.

Mako said:
.........

:monster:

Mako said:
...So they should use outdated filming techniques to depict the 80's, to make it fit the 80's setting more? What? That's ridiculous. American Psycho, one of my favorite movies depicting the hollow and vapidness of the upscale Yuppie lifestyle, didn't need to make itself looking like an 80's budget B-movie to get the setting across.

It also didn't have the same nuances in its very depiction that the "Watchmen" comic did -- which is something that the filmmakers should have tried to achieve in whatever ways allowed them by the medium they were working with.

Mako said:
The fact Watchmen used current cinematic effects, to tell the story doesn't detract from its authenticity at all. Especially when they used an 80's derived soundtrack, mofo.

You need more than "Everybody Wants to Rule the World" muzak to pull off authenticity. Though I, for one, did appreciate that touch.

Mako said:
By that logic, Dragonball Evolution should've had itself take place in the 80's and 90's since that's when Dragonball's setting took place. Guess they missed the mark on that one too. :monster:

Yeah, and on what fucking planet was that? Don't say Earth, cock monkey.

You know what I mean.

Mako said:
That's very true. That's why I said they did their best and knew they needed line themselves up as close to the source material possible.

I call bullshit on that being their best.

Mako said:
Not necessarily. A vapid waste of sounds, visuals, and dialogue isn't going to burn itself into many people's mind at all. Unless they're children.

"Effective" is not synonymous with "vapid." :monster:
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I can't help it that you're wrong.

Besides, your egregious offenses -- great enough to make the heavenly host disperse that celestial rose they form around God as they flee -- in defending artistic smut like Before Crisis and Crisis Core means it's only fair that you continue this discussion. :monster:

My egregious offenses? I defend Before Crisis and Crisis Core because for spin off games of limited scope within a smaller medium (a damn cell phone and PSP) they're alright. If these were stand alone, or full console RPGs like FFVII or FFXIII, no shit would I be mad at them. I think that's your problem with evaluating these two games (aside from your almost anal attention to continuity detail :monster: ). You hold them to the same standard as a full fledged FF title. Their imperfections and changes are more than obvious and stupid, but those changes on their own aren't enough to make me hate them and throw out whatever positive contributions and qualities they may have in their own right. I look at more than just that.

And Before Crisis and Crisis Core are nowhere near as fail as Dragonball Evolution or Mario Bros. The difference between the two is like Heaven and earth. And me liking those two is nowhere close to the insanity of you saying the damn V for Vendetta movie, a movie that is so full of inconsistencies and changes to the plot of the original graphic novel, is better than the book.

How the fuck can you even justify saying the damn movie is better than the book, when you jump down the throat of Before Crisis and Crisis Core, for changing shit and getting the continuity wrong of the original game? That's not just crazy, that's schizophrenic!



Like Casper, this ghost is friendly and ain't going anywhere. :awesome:

Well, at least we agree that the body of the argument is dead, and now a spiritual remnant is all that's left. :monster:



If he'd known it would be his last film, I think he'd have done it anyway.

....Somehow, I'm a bit dubious of that claim.



Yes, at least some of us do.

Only kids wearing helmets defend that movie as anything close to being good.



Well, I know I would have liked it less if she weren't there. Translation: You lose.

Deal with it!

Oh gtfo. She didn't even make a convincing Bulma. I have no fucking clue who she even was, but she sure as shit wasn't Bulma. And her shit characterization was only compounded by the fact they couldn't even bother giving her blue fucking hair. Because it's not realistic. In a fucking Dragonball movie. They're fucking worrying about the realism of BLUE HAIR...in a DRAGONBALL MOVIE. Do you not see the stupidity in such a statement and decision?!



I'd polish that all fucking day.


....Your admittance to your desire of polishing a turd kinda scares me.


It also didn't have the same nuances in its very depiction that the "Watchmen" comic did -- which is something that the filmmakers should have tried to achieve in whatever ways allowed them by the medium they were working with.

You can have a pulp, comic atmosphere without aging the celluloid and making the filming technique and technology regress dude. I thought the story was very nuanced and it certainly didn't back down from the themes of the original graphic novel. Its like you're nitpicking here. How the hell can you defend fucking Dragonball Evolution, and then needle the filming technique of Watchmen? Where the hell are the priorities?



You need more than "Everybody Wants to Rule the World" muzak to pull off authenticity. Though I, for one, did appreciate that touch.

Your misrepresentation and reduction of the well chosen and appropriate soundtrack angers and confuses me.



Yeah, and on what fucking planet was that? Don't say Earth, cock monkey.

You know what I mean.

It was a stylized, and fantastical Earth, but Earth all the same. You can clearly see themes of the 80's and 90's in the Dragonball setting. Guess Dragonball Evolution fucked up in that instant too, missing the nuanced world setting of the original manga there. :awesome:



I call bullshit on that being their best.

I call bullshit on your tastes. Either you're pulling the most elaborate troll on me I've ever experienced, or whatever madness Kitase suffers from has spread to you now.



"Effective" is not synonymous with "vapid." :monster:

There are some things novels and graphic novels have that a film can never articulate or depict. If a person's preference for those traits and nuance are what they look for most in a fictional story, then by the very nature of their tastes, a movie will always be secondary to what they read, in terms of memorability and enjoyment. Movies have more avenues of depicting and illustrating a good, well done story, but books and graphic novels can't be completely made obsolete or inferior by that same logic.
 
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