Forum software upgrade (for real now)

[Claymore]

Why did we decide against Xenforo again? I ask because that's what the new ResetEra is using and I'm finding it pretty great to use so far. Pretty much in love with the notifications button - it's similar to Discourse's but has a more TLS-like traditional feel.

Yeah it's so nice and familiar to navigate around that I felt the same. Despite the issues you guys have mentioned, maybe it's worth giving it another look for an upgrade option.

 

[Flintlock]

A Xenforo license costs $140 and each additional year of updates and support costs an additional $40. Over the course of a decade it would cost $500.

There are free and open source VB-like solutions. Way back on page one Yop said he'd install a few for us to try out, but I don't think that got further than Discourse.

 

[Claymore]

Way back on page one Yop said he'd install a few for us to try out, but I don't think that got further than Discourse.

Hint Hint. Wink. Nudge.

 

[Cthulhu]

Yeah cbfucked, all of those are ancient thingies anyway.

If anyone wants to fuck around, I can set up some test sites or something if you want to, but I personally cba anymore, not as long as there's no strong consensus / preference.

 

[Flintlock]

I want to be able to fuck around with Discourse. Simple Machines would be my pick of the other (free) options but I'd rather go for something that's actually an improvement on what we have now rather than just a clone.

 

[Geostigma]

Discourse was really funky to get used to when we last tested it. After years of getting used to forum structures that vB and even stuff like Invision free paved the way with it's tough to get used to the new fangled stuff.

I quite like Xenforo but understand how it's problematic.

So what were the downsides of not upgrading again? Security issues and stuff right? Aside from being increasingly open to shenanigans have there actually been issues on that front over the years?

 

[Flintlock]

Mobile, for one. Our forum is a user experience disaster on my phone. I'm not at home right now but when I get back I can upload and annotate a screenshot highlighting the myriad problems. We have a "mobile [dev]" theme but it's not much better – it addresses some problems but also introduces new ones. Plus it's been in [dev] forever. The fact is that VB3, which we are using, was released in 2004, in a time before the widespread adoption of smartphones and tablets, so it simply wasn't designed with them in mind.

Even on traditional browsers, the forum falls a long way short of being user-friendly, and it very much looks and feels its age. I know for a fact that we have lost potential members because they haven't been able to figure it out (though we should also be doing a much better job of communicating the new user restrictions to them – that's been on my to-do list for a while). It feels like second nature to us because we've gotten used to it – I dare say 90% of the regular posters on TLS grew up using forums very similar to this one – but it falls a long way short of modern web design standards.

Plus, don't just think of the downsides of staying put; think of the upsides of moving! A search function that actually finds what you're looking for instead of giving you a hundred threads that happen to contain your search term; notifications when someone quotes one of your posts; keyboard shortcuts, including the ability to press Ctrl+V to insert an image into your post (!); a unified log-in with the front page, or, optionally, the ability to log in with Google/Twitter/Facebook/etc., and more neat stuff. Why would you want to live in the past?

 

[Geostigma]

ven on traditional browsers, the forum falls a long way short of being user-friendly, and it very much looks and feels its age. I know for a fact that we have lost potential members because they haven't been able to figure it out

Reading this made me realize I'm that old guy who fears change cause he's so used to his old clunky stuff lol. I'm that guy. Oh boy.

Carry on lol

 

[Cthulhu]

Yeah this is software from effectively 2003, we're not getting any upgrades, and if it wasn't for (I assume) the fact I removed the version number from the footer, we'd be hax0red and defaced multiple times already.

Actually I saw traces that we were already, not sure if that was forums or via wordpress though.

@Flint, do you have access to the test forums?

 

[Flintlock]

I have an account there but no permissions to edit the theme or anything.

 

[Lex]

I have changed my mind on the Xenforo optimism thing. While it's nice (and has that familiarity) we should stick with trying to mod Discourse for now and see where that gets us. There was actually a discussion on ResetEra about the forum software and a lot of people recommended Discourse.

If Discourse doesn't work out for us in that we can't do what we want with it and get used to it, Xenforo is always an option and I won't mind fitting the bill or chipping in for it year to year.

But right now I've looked up a bunch of stuff and I do think Discourse is probably the best option for this board. It's just going to be difficult to get it looking and feeling the way we want it to.

@Flint I think I have Admin permissions on it, I'll see what I can do with your account.

EDIT: Done, you now have Admin permissions.

 

[Carlie]

I would like to echo how much of a nightmare this forum is on mobile phones. Until the power comes back this is how I browse the forum most of the time. I stopped doing longer posts because I just can't deal with it anymore.

I really enjoyed Discourse when we were testing it out and didn't mind at all that it was different than vb3. Also highlighting something to be quote is still the bomb.

 

[Mage]

I would like to echo how much of a nightmare this forum is on mobile phones. Until the power comes back this is how I browse the forum most of the time. I stopped doing longer posts because I just can't deal with it anymore.

This x 9000.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I would like to echo how much of a nightmare this forum is on mobile phones. Until the power comes back this is how I browse the forum most of the time. I stopped doing longer posts because I just can't deal with it anymore.

This x 9000.

I am obviously the outlier here, since I spend a decent amount of time browsing and poasting from my phone (which I am doing currently). Then again, I disable mobile view because I generally CBA to deal with mobile views, so…

I, too, have become ye olde internetter who prefers familiarity and whatnot, but I could definitely make an effort ta check newer formats and such.



X

 

[Cthulhu]

I'm updating the Discourse installation on the test server as we speak, Flint wanted to have a look at styling again. We may need to build a theme and such, go beyond the limited theme editor of the thing. Not sure if they ever made / updated documentation for that one, last time it was kinda depressing / hard to figure out.

Last time I fiddled with the regular importer, which basically takes one post at a time and inserts it into the Discourse database through the regular APIs for creating posts. This is fucking slow and iirc it would've taken 24 hours or so to do all of it. Which I guess is fine if it's good, but it's kinda slow. Also slow. There was also a bulk importer which goes to / through the database directly, but iirc after inserting it needs a load of time to process the new posts, do things like idk, index for searching, count poasts, that kinda thing. I think. That's the main problem I think with Discourse, it's not very transparent how it works. Mind you, that might just be me not having read into it enough; fuck knows vB was challenging until I figured out its basic database structure is pretty straightforward and as you'd expect, with the rest being optional features, caches, etc.

 

[Flintlock]

Re: first paragraph. Leave it with me. When I take on a TLS project, I get it done. Except when I don't. But usually I do. That's the Flintlock Guarantee™

 

[Cthulhu]

My guarantee is that I CBA

I'm tracking the updates now, looks like they plan on releasing the Discourse 1.9 final release in November. That might be a hint.

I just hope that if / when they do a 2.0, the upgrade will be smooth.

 

[Mage]

I swear to holy fuck and the gods old and new that if this stalls again you're going to see my Pissed Off face again. My lovely laptop was purchased to combat the increasing problems caused by the age of my netbook, in the same way this forum desperately needs to be upgraded. If there's anything I can do, just ask. I'm a pleb with technology but if I'm shown how to do something I can rinse and repeat until the cows come home.

 

[Mage]

Okay I've signed up to the beta version and had a mooch around, here be my findings:

- I don't like the lack of grids/dividers. I know it can't be a carbon copy of what we've got ATM, but it's easier on the eyes.

- I have to click on to the 'The Lifestream Forum' to get back to the main menu, there needs to be a navigation thing like we presently have.
EDIT: Oh using the Introduction section, I can see that there is a navigation thing at the top, it's just lacking content. The navigation thing is more the sort you'd find on a retail site though, opportunity calling perhaps?

- What's the difference between 'all categories' and 'Categories'?

- Why are there user icons on Latest Posts? Seems gratuitous

- I don't like the static image being visible behind the banner. Also having different themes would be nice, but not necessary. Would like to propose Moogle, Gold Saucer and Cosmo Canyon skins.

- keyboard shortcuts is obscured by the menu.

- Terms of Service need editing

- The homepage feels like there's something missing at the bottom.

- definitely needs a lot more tweaking to make it feel more like TLS, the materia balls need to be used somewhere. Also the icons for thanks and stuff need to be customised.

- Very little difference between being logged in or out at present, unless you start customising preferences.

So far, not bad but it certainly ain't home yet.

 

[Flintlock]

There's a reason I haven't made the theme I'm working on the default yet, and it's because I wanted to get it to a place I was reasonably happy with before getting feedback on it. A lot of that stuff is on my agenda already so I'm not going to reply in more detail for the time being.

 

[Mage]

Figured it would be but I feel a Need to be useful. Lemme know if I can do anything.

 

[Cthulhu]

Valid and just feedback. With regards to there not being much of a change when logged in, one thing we'll need to get on with is importing posts and setting up the categories and category access rights. I'll try that on my computer again probably this weekend, also to practice the actual migration. A checklist / plan of action would be prudent.

Another thing on that list is going through the migrated user flow and new user flow, see if both parties can find their way.

 

[Cthulhu]

Right so, whoever's worked on the test server make sure to back up your shit, Im going to throw an import on there soonish, probably somewhere tomorrow.

 

[Flintlock]

I'm not sure how. I don't have FTP (or similar) access and even if I did, I dunno where the theme stuff is kept. I think it's a .json file. Could you have a quick look?

 

[Cthulhu]

I had a look in the admin CP, there's an export button at the bottom of the main theme page after you select it.

Spoiler

{"theme":{"id":5,"name":"The Lifestream v5","key":"bd6eaf6d-d2e1-4591-a306-0ebffe3c768d","created_at":"2017-10-30T18:23:53.308Z","updated_at":"2017-10-30T18:41:38.713Z","color_scheme":{"id":18,"name":"The Lifestream v5","version":23,"created_at":"2017-10-30T18:39:01.073Z","updated_at":"2017-11-03T23:40:03.732Z","via_wizard":false,"base_scheme_id":"dark","theme_id":null},"color_scheme_id":18,"user_selectable":true,"remote_theme_id":null,"theme_fields":[{"name":"v5_background","target":"common","value":"","type_id":2,"upload_id":75,"url":"/uploads/default/original/1X/783bc804c215d0213537924c38a856079a4e1501.jpg","filename":"v5_background.jpg"},{"name":"head_tag","target":"common","value":"\u003cdiv id=\"lifestream-banner\"\u003e\r\n\t\u003ca href=\"/\"\u003e\r\n\t\t\u003cimg id=\"lifestream-banner-fixed\" src=\"/uploads/default/original/1X/d1b3fa9868f3e107baef37d0d852e0f45559f656.jpg\" alt=\"The Lifestream\"\u003e\r\n\t\u003c/a\u003e\r\n\t\u003cdiv id=\"lifestream-banner-link\"\u003e\r\n\t\t\u003ca href=\"/\"\u003e\u003cspan id=\"lifestream-banner-click\"\u003e\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/a\u003e\r\n\t\u003c/div\u003e\r\n\u003c/div\u003e","type_id":0},{"name":"v5_banner","target":"common","value":"","type_id":2,"upload_id":76,"url":"/uploads/default/original/1X/8bd213fba0132bc793154cadc7ddc7411d12e428.png","filename":"v5_banner.png"},{"name":"v5_banner_fixed","target":"common","value":"","type_id":2,"upload_id":77,"url":"/uploads/default/original/1X/d1b3fa9868f3e107baef37d0d852e0f45559f656.jpg","filename":"v5_banner_fixed.jpg"},{"name":"v5_header_menu_back","target":"common","value":"","type_id":2,"upload_id":86,"url":"/uploads/default/original/1X/05ced8ece0d30647f14d61a3b9ab2b9e876a1ca7.png","filename":"v5_header_menu_back.png"},{"name":"scss","target":"common","value":"html {\n    font-size: 16px;\n}\n\nbody {\n    background: url('/uploads/default/original/1X/783bc804c215d0213537924c38a856079a4e1501.jpg') no-repeat fixed center top black;\n\tfont-family: \"Open Sans\", sans-serif;\n\tfont-size: 14px;\n}\n\n@media only screen and (min-width: 1250px) {\n    #lifestream-banner {\n\t\tbackground: url('/uploads/default/original/1X/8bd213fba0132bc793154cadc7ddc7411d12e428.png') no-repeat scroll center top transparent;\n\t\theight: 205px;\n\t\tmargin-bottom: 0;\n\t\toverflow: hidden;\n\t\twidth: 100%;\n    }\n\t\n\t#lifestream-banner-fixed {\n\t\tdisplay: none !important;\n\t}\n}\n \n@media only screen and (max-width: 1249px) {\n\t#lifestream-banner-fixed {\n\t\tdisplay: block;\n\t}\n\t\n\t#lifestream-banner-fixed {\n\t    max-width: 100%;\n\t}\n\t\n\t#lifestream-banner {\n\t\tbackground: none !important;\n\t}\n}\n\n/* Container for the clickable area */\n#lifestream-banner-link {\n\theight: 100%;\n\tmargin: 0 auto;\n\tmax-width: 1250px;\n}\n/* Clickable area in middle of banner */\n#lifestream-banner-click {\n\tdisplay: block;\n\theight: 100%;\n\tmargin: 0;\n\twidth: 100%;\n}\n\nheader #site-text-logo {\n    text-transform: uppercase;\n    font-size: 1.1rem;\n    font-weight: 500;\n    line-height: 100%;\n    margin: auto 0;\n    padding: 1rem 0 1rem 2rem;\n}\n\n#main {\n    background-color: #17191a;\n    max-width: 1250px;\n    margin: 0 auto;\n    box-shadow: 0 0px 10px rgba(0,0,0,0.2);\n    min-height: 100%;\n    box-sizing: border-box;\n}\n\n@media only screen and (min-width: 685px) {\n    #main {\n        padding: 0 2rem;\n    }\n    \n    #reply-control {\n        margin-left: -2rem;\n    }\n}\n\n.d-header {\n    height: auto;\n    padding-top: 0;\n    width: calc(100% + 4rem);\n    margin-left: -2rem;\n}\n\n.d-header, .docked .d-header {\n    position: static;\n}\n\n.d-header .contents {\n    margin: 0;\n}\n\n.customize .admin-container {\n    padding: 0;\n}\n\n.wrap {\n    padding: 0;\n    margin: 0;\n    max-width: unset;\n}\n\n.d-header .wrap {\n    background: url('https://discourse.thelifestream.net/uploads/default/original/1X/05ced8ece0d30647f14d61a3b9ab2b9e876a1ca7.png') no-repeat top center;\n    background-size: 100% 100%;\n}\n\n.nav-pills \u003e li.active \u003e a,\n.nav-pills \u003e li \u003e a.active,\n.alert.alert-info,\n.btn:not(.btn-primary),\n.btn-danger,\n.list-controls .category-breadcrumb li.bullet\u003e.dropdown-header,\n.reply-to {\n    color: #fff;\n}\n\n.btn .d-icon {\n    opacity: 0.8;\n}\n\n.reply-to {\n    margin-bottom: 0.5rem;\n    max-width: unset;\n    width: 100%;\n}\n\n.btn-primary {\n    color: #000; \n}\n\n.btn-primary:hover,\n.nav-pills \u003e li:not(.active) \u003e a:hover {\n    background-color: #3f3f3f;\n    color: #fff; \n}\n\n.btn-primary[disabled]:hover {\n    background-color: #91f2ef;\n    color: #000;\n}\n\n.select-box-kit.dropdown-select-box .select-box-kit-row.is-highlighted,\n.select-box-kit .select-box-kit-row.is-selected.is-highlighted,\n.select-box-kit.dropdown-select-box .select-box-kit-row:hover {\n    background-color: #164945;\n}\n\n.select-box-kit .select-box-kit-row.is-selected {\n    background: inherit;\n}\n\n.d-header .panel {\n    margin-top:5px;\n    margin-right:2rem;\n}\n\n.admin-contents {\n    margin: 0;\n}\n\n.wrap .contents {\n    padding-left:3px;\n}\n\n.list-cell, .table-heading, .category-list td, .category-list th, .user-navigation .nav-stacked a {\n    color: #999;\n}\n\n.category-dropdown-button .fa-caret-right:before {\n\tcontent: \"\\f0d7\";\n}\n\n#reply-control.edit-title .contents .wmd-controls {\n    width: calc(100% - 4rem);\n    top: 6rem !important;\n    bottom: 3rem !important;\n}\n\n.composer-popup {\n    background: #164945;\n    color: #fff;\n    left: calc(50% + 0.25rem);\n}\n\n#reply-control .toggle-preview {\n    right: 3rem;\n}\n\n#reply-control .contents {\n    min-width: unset;\n    max-width: 100%;\n    padding: 0;\n}\n\n#reply-control:not(.closed) {\n    padding: 1rem 2rem;\n    box-sizing: border-box;\n}\n\n.grippie {\n    padding: 0 0 0.5em 0;\n}\n\n.grippie:before {\n    border-top-color: #b3b3b3;\n}\n\n#reply-control {\n    width: 1250px;\n    max-width: 100%;\n}\n\n#reply-control .toggler {\n    right: 2rem;\n    padding: 0;\n    color: #b3b3b3;\n}\n\n#reply-control .reply-area {\n    max-width: 100%;\n}\n\n.control-row.reply-area {\n    padding: 0;\n}\n\n#reply-control.edit-title .contents input#reply-title,\n#reply-control .contents .form-element {\n    width: 100%;\n}\n\n#reply-control .title-input, #reply-control .category-input, #reply-control .show-admin-options {\n    width: calc(50% - 0.25rem);\n    float: left;\n}\n\n#reply-control .category-input {\n    margin-left: 0.5rem;\n}\n\n#reply-control .contents .form-element .category-input .category-chooser {\n    width: 100%;\n}\n\n#reply-control .contents #reply-title {\n    float: none;\n}\n\n#reply-control.edit-title .contents input#reply-title {\n    box-sizing: border-box;\n    padding: 1rem 0 1rem 0.5rem;\n    margin-right: 0;\n}\n\n.popup-tip.bad {\n    background-color: #481519;\n}\n\n#reply-control .d-editor-button-bar {\n    top: unset;\n    width: calc(50% - 0.25rem);\n}\n\n#reply-control .wmd-controls {\n    left: 2rem;\n    right: 2rem;\n}\n\n#reply-control .wmd-controls .d-editor-preview-header {\n    display: none;\n}\n\n#reply-control .wmd-controls .d-editor-input {\n    border-top: 2rem solid transparent;\n}\n\ninput[type=\"text\"],\ninput[type=\"password\"],\ninput[type=\"datetime\"],\ninput[type=\"datetime-local\"],\ninput[type=\"date\"],\ninput[type=\"month\"],\ninput[type=\"time\"],\ninput[type=\"week\"],\ninput[type=\"number\"],\ninput[type=\"email\"],\ninput[type=\"url\"],\ninput[type=\"search\"],\ninput[type=\"tel\"],\ninput[type=\"color\"],\ndiv.ac-wrap {\n    border: 1px solid #000;\n    border-radius: 0;\n    background-color: #3f3f3f;\n}\n\ninput[type=\"text\"]:focus,\ninput[type=\"password\"]:focus,\ninput[type=\"datetime\"]:focus,\ninput[type=\"datetime-local\"]:focus,\ninput[type=\"date\"]:focus,\ninput[type=\"month\"]:focus,\ninput[type=\"time\"]:focus,\ninput[type=\"week\"]:focus,\ninput[type=\"number\"]:focus,\ninput[type=\"email\"]:focus,\ninput[type=\"url\"]:focus,\ninput[type=\"search\"]:focus,\ninput[type=\"tel\"]:focus,\ninput[type=\"color\"]:focus,\n.select-box-kit.combo-box.is-expanded .select-box-kit-wrapper,\n.select-box-kit.combo-box .select-box-kit-header.is-focused {\n    box-shadow: none;\n    -webkit-box-shadow: none;\n    border-radius: 0;\n}\n\n#topic-title .title-wrapper .btn-small {\n    margin: 0.5rem 0.5rem 0 0;\n}\n\n.topic-list .topic-list-item-separator td {\n    padding-top: 3rem;\n    border-bottom: 2px solid #164945;\n}\n\n.topic-list .topic-list-item-separator td span {\n    color: #b3b3b3;\n}\n\n.settings .setting.overridden h3 {\n    color: #b3b3b3;\n    font-weight: bold;\n}\n\n.category-dropdown-menu {\n    min-width: 300px;\n}\n\n.list-controls .category-dropdown-menu .badge-wrapper.bullet .badge-category {\n    max-width: 300px;\n}\n\n.title-input input[type=\"text\"],\n.admin-controls .controls input[type=\"text\"] {\n    background-color: #17191a;\n}\n\n.settings .setting .input-setting-list {\n    background-color: #3f3f3f;\n}\n\ninput, button, select, textarea {\n    font-family: \"Open Sans\", sans-serif;\n}\n\n#reply-control .d-editor-button-bar button,\n.topic-list-item.visited a.title:not(.badge-notification),\n.latest-topic-list-item.visited a.title:not(.badge-notification),\n.category-topic-link.visited a.title:not(.badge-notification),\n.topic-list th,\ndiv.education {\n    color: #b3b3b3;\n}\n\n.category-list .featured-topic a.last-posted-at,\n.category-list .featured-topic a.last-posted-at:visited,\n.modal .modal-body p,\n.topic-meta-data .post-info a,\n.user-info .user-detail .title,\n.topic-list .topic-excerpt {\n    color: #999;\n}\n\n.modal.history-modal span.edit-reason {\n    background-color: unset;\n}\n\n.badge-notification {\n    padding: 0 2px 2px 2px;\n}\n\n.topic-list td {\n    color: #b3b3b3 !important;\n}\n\n#reply-control .wmd-controls .d-editor-textarea-wrapper {\n    width: calc(50% - 0.25rem);\n}\n\n#reply-control #draft-status, #reply-control #file-uploading {\n    right: calc(50% + 0.25rem);\n}\n\n#reply-control .toggle-preview {\n    right: 0;\n}\n\n#main-outlet {\n    padding-top: 1rem;\n}\n\nimg.avatar,\n.select-box-kit .select-box-kit-header {\n  border-radius: 0px;\n}\n\n.fixed-modal {\n    z-index: 1100;\n}\n\n/* TOPICS */\n\n#topic-title {\n    padding-top: 0;\n}\n\n#topic-title h1 {\n    overflow: unset;\n}","type_id":1}],"child_themes":[],"remote_theme":null}}

Unformatted json with inline CSS offends me