"General" Sephiroth?

[LicoriceAllsorts]

But he even sucked at tearing it apart. All he did was take their shilling and ally with two incompetents who weren't even his fellow travellers. I actually find him a very believable character, and if I met him IRL I'd probably initially like him, until I glimpsed the howling abyss inside him.

But yes, he is Tragic, he's a good example of an Aristotelian Tragic Hero. Rufus, on the other hand, is anything but Tragic.
Further thought: he's a lot like Othello. Shakespeare could have fun with Lazard. The outsider, comes from nothing, at the opening of the play he has it all, but lets himself be led astray by overwhelming negative emotions and misplaced trust. Then the peripeteia - from being a prince among men he falls like Lucifer and turns into a monster (twist, the monster is better than the man was) - and anagnoresis, he sees the truth of how misguided he was. And dies.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think we only see their incompetence in retrospect. At the time, a 1st Class SOLDIER with his own army, raising hell across the globe with Shinra technology to boot is a pretty big deal.

Only AVALANCHE were bigger threats than Genesis and his army.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You are correct, of course.

 

[Nandemoyasan]

I didn't notice if anyone pointed out, that sometimes in military organizations, protocol can dictate that when someone is in command of a mission, they will be customarily referred to by the rank they hold on that mission team, by that mission team. For example, if the Lieutenant is in command of the operation, he is referred to (when speaking directly to him) as "Commander" "Captain," etc., despite not technically holding that rank.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I didn't know that.

 

[Shademp]

While it doesn't pinpoint the origin of the terms "Commander" and "General" in Sephiroth fanon, my theory has always been that it originates from people misremembering the English manuals' description of Sephiroth as an "Officer".

The English manuals (including North American, English European and PC version) all describe Sephiroth's job as "Top ranking SOLDIER officer". Notably, Sephiroth isn't referred to as an officer in any other material.

Spoiler: North American manual

Spoiler: English European manual

Of course this is merely my speculation and the fanon job title for Sephiroth could have easily spawned even without the presence of the English manuals.

 

[ForceStealer]

I didn't notice if anyone pointed out, that sometimes in military organizations, protocol can dictate that when someone is in command of a mission, they will be customarily referred to by the rank they hold on that mission team, by that mission team. For example, if the Lieutenant is in command of the operation, he is referred to (when speaking directly to him) as "Commander" "Captain," etc., despite not technically holding that rank.

And the person in command of a ship is always a "captain," no matter what their rank is.

 

[ForceStealer]

I would guess that in a basic interaction like passing in the hall, any given SOLDIER would outrank a given grunt. But I would imagine regular army officers are placed in command of SOLDIERs all the time. Since they are, as Lic said, more weapon than brains.

 

[Nandemoyasan]

... If you wanted to, you could differentiate by talking about two categories, "Appointed Rank" and "Documented Rank," and use the system of such as a sort of training tier system. Like, after so many times of you doing a successful mission under an appointed rank, you'd be eligible to submit for a promotion to a higher "Documented Rank" and why does this sound like FFV's Job System?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

More than likely, regular army officers find themselves in command of SOLDIERs for some missions while SOLDIER operatives (or Turks, a la Reno when he goes to the church) find themselves in charge of army grunts on other assignments. On a day-to-day basis, however, they could have zero authority over one another.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Shinra Military has established ranks but SOLDIER operatives have their own unique ranking that is simply 3-C to 1-C, and the roles they play in battle vary depending on the mission and necessities they entail. It really just depends on the situation.

Sephiroth could be part of covert ops in enemy territory, a one man army to take down anti-Shinra terrorists, a bodyguard to protect Shinra scientists or a squad leader on a repair mission to a distant Mako Reactor. It just depends on the demands Shinra place on him. The only official rank any SOLDIER carries is their class designation.

 

[Clement Rage]

Rufus and Lazard also pull the same trick of 'trust incredibly untrustworthy terrorist group with a mad scientist that makes mindless killing machines and hope it furthers my goals, and be surprised when they inevitably betray me.'

Makes you wonder how Prez came to power.

 

[Nandemoyasan]

Rufus and Lazard also pull the same trick of 'trust incredibly untrustworthy terrorist group with a mad scientist that makes mindless killing machines and hope it furthers my goals, and be surprised when they inevitably betray me.'

Makes you wonder how Prez came to power.

It's like these people have never even heard of Mary Shelley.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Rufus and Lazard also pull the same trick of 'trust incredibly untrustworthy terrorist group with a mad scientist that makes mindless killing machines and hope it furthers my goals, and be surprised when they inevitably betray me.'

Makes you wonder how Prez came to power.

They do, but that's their only real similarity.

 

[Clement Rage]

I mean, their whole prequel stories are about allying with said dubious people for the purposes of taking out their father, that's a pretty big simularity to have.

Lazard just had no Turks to bail him out when he was betrayed.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Except Lazard died and Rufus lived to fight another day. One is a loser and the other is, if not a winner, at least a perpetually bouncing back rubber ball.

 

[Roger]

I mean, their whole prequel stories are about allying with said dubious people for the purposes of taking out their father, that's a pretty big simularity to have.

Lazard just had no Turks to bail him out when he was betrayed.

Lazard survived the betrayal just fine, he choose to sacrifice himself to protect Cloud from Shinra.

 

[Clement Rage]

I wonder if he would've been made into a Raven if caught in Corel? I could see Fuhito doing that, and then sending him home to his father.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Wasn't Lazard degenerating, like all the other clones? Would he not have died anyway?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Wasn't Lazard degenerating, like all the other clones? Would he not have died anyway?

That's true, but he could have moped away somewhere, offed himself, or gone the Genesis route of trying to take others down with him.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

What I mean is that the betrayal didn't leave him "fine".

 

[Roger]

What I mean is that the betrayal didn't leave him "fine".

Genesis was still fighting, walking and talking and flying around 7 years after his degradation symptoms started, I don't think you can attribute Lazard's death to his betrayal in anyway, he could have outlived the Jenova war, Geostigma and Deepground just fine if he only looked after number one.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well, of course, the irony, as we established, is that the very thing which caused him to degrade - becoming an Angeal clone - was also the thing which cured him of his need for revenge and taught him to think of others. He wouldn't have been moved to sacrifice himself for Cloud if he hadn't become part-Angeal first, so....

 

[Clement Rage]

I thought Angeal copies didn't degrade?

 

[Makoeyes987]

They don't degrade at the accelerated rate Genesis copies do, but if they overexert their powers they will degrade. Angeal degraded when he forced his own mutation and went all out as Angeal Penance.