Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[Jairus]

Well, there wasn't a Clessie club here until I made one, but there are a number of people out there who do like the ship. I've seen them on youtube and twitter and gamefaqs and such (though we face a lot of ridicule and criticism on gamefaqs for it). I'm hoping that grows with the release of the remake. She's just always been such an underrated and underloved character, always lost and forgotten in the shadow of Aerith and Tifa. Me and others like me just hope the remake gives her a chance to have at least a little bit of that connection with Cloud that she always wanted and provide some validation for the ship - because unlike most non-Clerith/Cloti ships, this one actually has the potential for that due to Jessie already having those feelings from the beginning in the original game along with Cloud being able to flirt with her a few times if the player wanted him to.

Making her an option in Part 1's affection system at the very least (if not giving the ship a little service and development outside of that) is, to me and those like me, simply a natural extension of what was already present in the original game. We just want to see more one-on-one interactions between the two and the ship's potential at least acknowledged if not actually fully explored. We - well, I can only speak for myself in this case, but I'm sure others like me wouldn't mind - hope that the remake allows her to finally step out of Aerith and Tifa's long shadow and be liked and remembered just as much as they are.

 

[Firstone33]

Well, there wasn't a Clessie club here until I made one, but there are a number of people out there who do like the ship. I've seen them on youtube and twitter and gamefaqs and such (though we face a lot of ridicule and criticism on gamefaqs for it). I'm hoping that grows with the release of the remake. She's just always been such an underrated and underloved character, always lost and forgotten in the shadow of Aerith and Tifa. Me and others like me just hope the remake gives her a chance to have at least a little bit of that connection with Cloud that she always wanted and provide some validation for the ship - because unlike most non-Clerith/Cloti ships, this one actually has the potential for that due to Jessie already having those feelings from the beginning in the original game along with Cloud being able to flirt with her a few times if the player wanted him to.

Making her an option in Part 1's affection system at the very least (if not giving the ship a little service and development outside of that) is, to me and those like me, simply a natural extension of what was already present in the original game. We just want to see more one-on-one interactions between the two and the ship's potential at least acknowledged if not actually fully explored. We - well, I can only speak for myself in this case, but I'm sure others like me wouldn't mind - hope that the remake allows her to finally step out of Aerith and Tifa's long shadow and be liked and remembered just as much as they are.

Not the only one.

 

[Odysseus]

I guess I, as mr. Jessie avatar, aught to come in. I'm not a Clessie shipper myself really (I'm a dirty Cloti at heart) but I wouldn't mind their relationship being explored a little. Jessie is the most forward out of the three now that the remake is expanding her characterization, and if that smirk from the game awards trailer is anything to go by, Cloud is at the very least flattered by her compliments. I don't really see them taking it very far though.

I would really like it if they shared a vulnerable moment together, not for teh ships, but because I'm hoping Jessie's struggle with her guilt over the damage her bomb caused is explored more. That's something I want to do in my own comic later on.

 

[Makoeyes987]

... Really don't know why you're getting your hopes up over Jessie like this. You're setting yourself up, because while she will have more of a role due to the simple fact she's around longer and does way more, you're expecting way too much for a secondary character that's literally doomed.

And that type of melodramatic three-way love triangulation would be bad, horribly telegraphed writing for what's to come. It'd diminish her final moments if Jessie had such neat, perfectly charted character build up and conclusion so her appearance leaves her completely resolved. That's not how young people usually die.

I'm not even sure how an affection system would exist, let alone it's relevance. There's no Gold Saucer here. Frankly, Jessie's unrealized crush on Cloud needs no explanation or further addressing. She likes him. He's cool, attractive and sweet. Her affection towards Cloud is uniquely, the most uncomplicated and normal relationship expression in VII. There's no baggage attached to it. It's simply a young woman's refreshingly uncomplicated attraction towards someone. Simple and clean, one might say.

People build up some extreme expectation tunnel vision and when something fails to deliver it, they get pissed and disappointed. Appreciate what's there and be careful creating huge specific wish lists of critical wants and issues to be addressed. Or don't be upset when it shows the story is not even on the same wavelength where you thought it was.

 

[Odysseus]

The fact they're getting a bigger role at all was always good enough for me, I don't have any horses in any hypothetical love-quadrangle-based races here. I never thought there would even be a love system in part 1; like you said, what would it even be used for? You're one of the ones who took a deep dive into the leaks, aren't you @Makoeyes987 ? Guess I know some of Jairus' more... specific hopes aren't gonna happen. That's fine, I was never expecting that much to begin with. Fan fiction is where we get to have fun in the romance department. The only Jessie hope I have for the remake is like I said, I want them to explore her (and Avalanche in general) guilt over the civilian deaths she caused. That's something that's still weighing on Tifa and Barret by the time of Advent Children, so a microcosm of it here would be nice.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh I wasn't speaking in regards to any specific leak(s).

I just meant generally. I mean, Jessie gets a good bit of development for her character. But I wouldn't expect a sudden... Dating or affection system or even dive into romance. Leaks aside, it just wouldn't make sense.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Cloud isn't sweet. I'm not even sure he's that cool; it's arguable. But nobody could describe him as sweet. He's a grouchy sourpuss in the Midgar portion of the game.
If I was to crush on someone in that gang it'd be Biggs. Now he's attractive.
(I think I actually find Cloud the least interesting character in this game).

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud's a jerk with a heart of gold. He does several sweet acts and at least three women would say otherwise.

He's not Wedge wearing his heart on his sleeve and while he certainly doesn't feel obligated to be nice to anybody, his cool, tough guy exterior is mostly an act. He's nowhere near as grouchy or cold like Barret, Vincent or Cid.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Barret isn't cold. I'd say Cid isn't cold either; he's quite an impulsive hothead, and rudeness is his love language.
I guess Cloud does some sweet things, like not leaving Jessie to die trapped in an exploding reactor, or buying a flower off a girl who forces it on him and then handing it to Tifa when she asks who it's for.... Cloud definitely does some heroic things. But sweet things?
Is it an act, or a false persona? An act is normally something people consciously put on.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Barret's not the one I was calling cold. Cid and Vincent were the ones I meant as being cold, especially Cid when he's in a bad mood.

And Cloud is a sweet person, even when he's not fully himself, because moments present themselves where he feels compelled to act out the traits of his true personality. Even when he's in a bad mood or in his mercenary attitude, he doesn't even go all the way in being a complete jerk. When enough prodding happens to get close, he almost never digs in on his jerkishness. Barret was the one he was most disagreeable with. But anyone else, he eventually opens up.

Squall at the beginning of VIII is actually someone who would be far more applicable in not being called sweet at all. Squall is cold as steel and quite mean until he finally opens up and embraces attaching himself to people. And that cold, mean externalization was an act in his case. Cloud only does it because he's mentally unaware of his own false reality.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I guess we have different definitions of sweet.

 

[Odysseus]

Cloud tastes delicious, I'm sure.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Sweet and sour mako sauce.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's actually a very fitting flavor! He's sweet and sour.

A sour-patch kid.

 

[Jairus]

... Really don't know why you're getting your hopes up over Jessie like this. You're setting yourself up, because while she will have more of a role due to the simple fact she's around longer and does way more, you're expecting way too much for a secondary character that's literally doomed.

And that type of melodramatic three-way love triangulation would be bad, horribly telegraphed writing for what's to come. It'd diminish her final moments if Jessie had such neat, perfectly charted character build up and conclusion so her appearance leaves her completely resolved. That's not how young people usually die.

I'm not even sure how an affection system would exist, let alone it's relevance. There's no Gold Saucer here. Frankly, Jessie's unrealized crush on Cloud needs no explanation or further addressing. She likes him. He's cool, attractive and sweet. Her affection towards Cloud is uniquely, the most uncomplicated and normal relationship expression in VII. There's no baggage attached to it. It's simply a young woman's refreshingly uncomplicated attraction towards someone. Simple and clean, one might say.

People build up some extreme expectation tunnel vision and when something fails to deliver it, they get pissed and disappointed. Appreciate what's there and be careful creating huge specific wish lists of critical wants and issues to be addressed. Or don't be upset when it shows the story is not even on the same wavelength where you thought it was.

Thing is, though, the Gold Saucer isn't needed for an affection system if it's done on a per-game basis and a similar date-type event exists within Part 1. Why people assume the existence of an affection system must be geared specifically for the Gold Saucer alone is beyond me when the story's multi-game structure allows for an independent affection system for each game which could still also be carried over from game to game. And given that Nomura's confirmed that there are lots of choices and choices-dependent events and scenes in the game, that allows the possibility for an affection system to exist in Part 1.

And leaving her feelings unaddressed is not a good way to treat her character, especially after they were just forgotten in the OG because "OMG must blast A/T everywhere! J must never have her own chance to have what they have with C!"

Aerith was/is doomed as well, so that argument fails. Aerith only lasted about half the game in the OG, but it didn't stop her from being a potential love interest. And since Jessie will be around for at least half of Part 1, there's no reason it should stop her, either. Death is not the excuse you or others think it is. And being an NPC doesn't make a difference, either - PC's and NPC's have been involved to varying degrees before in FF games (Snow and Serah spring instantly to mind).

The very nature of Jessie's feelings for him is part of why they should be addressed and why Cloud may feel less threatened and uncomfortable with them than with anything from A & T at this point, both of which come with baggage. You don't know allowing her feelings to get even a small bit of return would be handled badly because you haven't seen how it would be done. You're just assuming it would be bad and that any writing would have to be bad without allowing for the possibility of things you haven't thought of yet. You say it would be telegraphed but you don't say how. But shaking up the old LTD by letting J have a small part in it leaves room for surprises and the unexpected and a way to catch veterans off guard and keep things fresh and unpredictable.

But I guess some people can't handle the idea of anything ever impinging on the holy duo of A & T. But a sure way to get people to resent those two is to not allow their spotlight to be shared and treat J as being inferior to them and unworthy of being allowed to have some of what they have, which includes attention from Cloud.

And Cloud isn't necessarily the jerk people say he is - they say that because of how he acts in the first mission and his argument with Barret in the basement, but outside of that, you could have him be completely nice to everyone if you wanted to, even on the way back to the slums from that first mission - meeting Aerith doesn't somehow flip a switch in him because he had the opportunity and option to treat his allies well prior to that and could have if you chose to have him do it. So he's always had that ability, which means he's not necessarily the jerk people think he was. Aloof, maybe, and cool, but that's not the same thing.

And if the leaked demo is anything to go on, Cloud does seem to have at least a little attraction for Jessie in the remake (and I'm not the only one who's noticed this, either).

Spoiler

He treats her very differently than he does the guys - he makes eye contact with her, talks with her, shows concern for her, and does nothing to turn aside her interest in him. He also not only tries to answer her question about him and Tifa, he does it nicely rather than blowing her off or telling her he isn't interested. There's also that bashful smile he tries not to make, but she got him to do it. SE gave Cloud's first smile of the game to Jessie. Not Aerith and not Tifa. Jessie. I think there's some significance to that.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You're ignoring the fundamental difference of Jessie being a tertiary character in the original game. She was never going to hold as much importance as Aerith or Tifa in the overall narrative. Aerith and Tifa are main characters, so of course they'd be "everywhere."

The reason why it'd be clumsy and shallow storytelling to include Jessie as a legitimate love interest for Cloud is because of three reasons. The first one being, is that it dilutes and unnecessarily distracts the overall narrative. FFVII, despite it's notorious LT debate, is actually not a love story. Cloud having two potential love interests, one that gets taken from him by his enemy, is enough dramatic, emotional love-story pathos for the game proper. Adding a third just because it's possible literally serves no purpose other than to over-dramatize a factor that was not the crux of the story to begin with. Secondly, it horribly telegraphs the important twist that is to come regarding Aerith.

Cloud having a woman who confesses to seriously liking him die in Part 1 would make Aerith thematically "next on the list." It'd now become a strange, morbid pattern where those who fall for Cloud seemingly end up dead in this Remake. Leaving Tifa as apparently, the survivor of a new bizarre reality game. This isn't a harem anime saga. Cloud doesn't need to be torn between three women who feel for him and want him romantically. It lessens the impact, and cheapens the overall message.

And the third reason is simply, why? It would add essentially nothing meaningful to Jessie's actual story. Considering Jessie is literally living on borrowed time from the perspective of the viewer/player, why would the writers bog down chances to explore Jessie's character independently, with melodramatic, empty attempts at instigating or pursuing a relationship with Cloud? Especially when Jessie would be aware of the fact that Cloud is Tifa's childhood friend? That's time being wasted on an empty, dead-end romance, that could be used to flesh out Jessie's character and make her a secondary character, not a tertiary one. If they padded chances of showcasing Jessie's personality with awkward attempts of her trying to get in Cloud's pants, it'd be worst than just having her remain in the same role as before. They would have squandered chances to give Jessie personality and a character just to create a dead-end, useless and contrived love plot that gives zero pay-off.

Snow and Serah are again main characters in their respective series. So comparing them to Jessie is not applicable either. Cloud doesn't feel "threatened" by anyone's feelings; he's ambivalent at best, or oblivious at worst in the OG. Cloud had other things on his mind. And of course Cloud would react different to the only woman in the group. He's not above appreciating playful flirting. But that's all it is. Playful flirtation. Not every flirt has to be bogged down by the pre-text of a serious relationship or intend to act on said feelings.

... And if you're resentful over the fact Jessie is not part of the LTD, then I can't even imagine the perspective that would create such a feeling. I would think you'd be glad to not have a favorite character bogged down by an undying debate over the imaginary feelings said character may or may not have had reciprocated, that are functionally irrelevant by the end of the game. That's such an unbelievably strange burden to wish to on a character.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

My original impression of the Jessie character in the OG was that she was a feint. A minor NPC potential love interest is killed off early in the game; the player thinks, "OK, no way will they pull that one again," and that's just one more way in which Aerith's death (playable character, major love interest) completely blindsides you, unless you already knew it was coming.

What's really surprising is that all these women are fawning over Cloud and no one is interested in Biggs. In real life that just wouldn't happen.

 

[Jairus]

You're ignoring the fundamental difference of Jessie being a tertiary character in the original game. She was never going to hold as much importance as Aerith or Tifa in the overall narrative. Aerith and Tifa are main characters, so of course they'd be "everywhere."

This isn't the original game, though. Things change.

The reason why it'd be clumsy and shallow storytelling to include Jessie as a legitimate love interest for Cloud is because of three reasons. The first one being, is that it dilutes and unnecessarily distracts the overall narrative. FFVII, despite it's notorious LT debate, is actually not a love story. Cloud having two potential love interests, one that gets taken from him by his enemy, is enough dramatic, emotional love-story pathos for the game proper. Adding a third just because it's possible literally serves no purpose other than to over-dramatize a factor that was not the crux of the story to begin with. Secondly, it horribly telegraphs the important twist that is to come regarding Aerith.

A character losing two love interests has been done before and done well - Worf of Star Trek lost both Kehylar and Jadzia, both of whom were killed.

Cloud having a woman who confesses to seriously liking him die in Part 1 would make Aerith thematically "next on the list." It'd now become a strange, morbid pattern where those who fall for Cloud seemingly end up dead in this Remake. Leaving Tifa as apparently, the survivor of a new bizarre reality game. This isn't a harem anime saga. Cloud doesn't need to be torn between three women who feel for him and want him romantically. It lessens the impact, and cheapens the overall message.

Except that in Part 1, as early as in the overall FFVII story, Aerith and Tifa are just friends at this point and there is a built-in limit on how far that can go in Part 1 because they will be around for later parts. Jessie won't be, which actually means she has no such limit on her development with Cloud. Not that I expect much to actually happen. I'd just like acknowledgement of the possibility of what might have been, what could have been. Not even necessarily in words, but even if it's just shown in some way, that would be enough.

And the third reason is simply, why? It would add essentially nothing meaningful to Jessie's actual story. Considering Jessie is literally living on borrowed time from the perspective of the viewer/player, why would the writers bog down chances to explore Jessie's character independently, with melodramatic, empty attempts at instigating or pursuing a relationship with Cloud? Especially when Jessie would be aware of the fact that Cloud is Tifa's childhood friend? That's time being wasted on an empty, dead-end romance, that could be used to flesh out Jessie's character and make her a secondary character, not a tertiary one. If they padded chances of showcasing Jessie's personality with awkward attempts of her trying to get in Cloud's pants, it'd be worst than just having her remain in the same role as before. They would have squandered chances to give Jessie personality and a character just to create a dead-end, useless and contrived love plot that gives zero pay-off.

You're assuming she can't be developed and allowed to have a little return on her interest at the same time. Both can happen simultaneously. And as Cloud never got to answer her question in the reactor - given the presence of choices in the game, it might even be up to us to choose how he answers it later, just as we got do with Aerith in the original. Which could mean we could have the option to have him tell Jessie that Tifa's just a friend.

So since Aerith dies, is that considered dead-end as well? Why bother having her have feelings for Cloud if she's going to die anyway? That's your argument about Jessie, and it can be applied just as easily to Aerith. Which makes the argument invalid.

Snow and Serah are again main characters in their respective series. So comparing them to Jessie is not applicable either. Cloud doesn't feel "threatened" by anyone's feelings; he's ambivalent at best, or oblivious at worst in the OG. Cloud had other things on his mind. And of course Cloud would react different to the only woman in the group. He's not above appreciating playful flirting. But that's all it is. Playful flirtation. Not every flirt has to be bogged down by the pre-text of a serious relationship or intend to act on said feelings.

Uncomfortable with Aerith and Tifa's feelings would be a better word. But the nature of Jessie's being so different would make them more approachable for him. And you don't usually flirt with someone you're not interested in. When such interaction is present in a story, it creates the expectation that sooner or later, those feelings will be addressed. I don't want her feelings reduced to empty flirting just for the sake of avoiding conflict with Aerith and Tifa. That cheapens her and her feelings. And Serah's still an NPC, like Jessie, and that was the point of the example. She's more absent than present in the game but they're still involved.

... And if you're resentful over the fact Jessie is not part of the LTD, then I can't even imagine the perspective that would create such a feeling. I would think you'd be glad to not have a favorite character bogged down by an undying debate over the imaginary feelings said character may or may not have had reciprocated, that are functionally irrelevant by the end of the game. That's such an unbelievably strange burden to wish to on a character.

And I don't understand why you'd feel resentful and threatened over the possibility of her feelings getting even a small amount of return. I never said it had to be much. And any feelings for her would not become irrelevant just because she dies - just as what he may have felt for Aerith didn't become irrelevant after her death. They're still a part of him, just as anything he might feel for Jessie would still be. You don't forget about someone you felt for just because you lose them. Believe me, I know this firsthand.

 

[Erotic Materia]

 

[Maidenofwar]

Actually Cloud meeting Aerith does "flip a switch" as it's called out/highlighted in the external/supporting materials ?

 

[Jairus]

Actually Cloud meeting Aerith does "flip a switch" as it's called out/highlighted in the external/supporting materials ?

Then how come he still had the ability to be nice to his allies before that? If he couldn't before he met her, we would never have been given the option to be nice to the others in the first place.

And EM, blame Mako for being unable to resist arguing about it. He didn't have to respond and start this off again.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's based on the original game, and telling the original game's story. While different, they're not fundamentally two separate stories. Likewise, comparing FFVII's use of romantic melodrama with a serial, sci-fi television show isn't applicable at all. Star Trek and FFVII are two entirely different forms of media telling vastly different types of stories.

Jessie does have a limit. A limited lifespan and time. How much do you really think Jessie is going to be apart of? Even in an expanded capacity, there's still not a lot of time given a lot of the plot does not include her, and to waste her screentime on a fruitless romance that serves nothing for her own innate character sounds like extremely poor writing. What return could she possibly get? Cloud's not going to date her. His eyes are on Aerith. And Tifa. Why would there be a third romance element especially now when they're trying to build up more of Aerith here?

So since Aerith dies, is that considered dead-end as well? Why bother having her have feelings for Cloud if she's going to die anyway? That's your argument about Jessie, and it can be applied just as easily to Aerith. Which makes the argument invalid.

Again. Aerith is a main character. That's her lane. That's "the bother." It's baked into her character and the plot. I don't understand how you keep trying to equate Jessie as somehow the same level of character as the heroines of the game. That whole relationship served a fundamental narrative purpose. It frames the relationship of Cloud and Aerith, and illustrates their respective growth, along with hinting towards the revelation of who Cloud is.

And people flirt just for fun all the time. Not every flirtatious act is a proposition to begin a relationship. That's just simply not true. Jessie's feelings aren't being cheapened. She's just having fun. Not sure how that's a bad thing.

And I'm not threatened or resentful. I just see it as pointless. Jessie doesn't "need" her feeling reciprocated. On a list of things "Jessie needs," that's like.. Not even on there. I'd rather see her do stuff and be fleshed out. Not meaninglessly forced into a contrived romantic situation that goes no where, and leads to nowhere. You're vastly inflating the importance of Jessie's relationship to Cloud and vice versa here.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

When is Cloud nice to his allies? We're setting the bar for Cloud pretty low if we think it's nice of him not to let Jessie die.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I'm not saying he doesn't have the ability to be nice beforehand but that Square Enix highlights it as something special ☺

"Aerith's warm cheer begins to melt Cloud's frosty exterior"

https://images.app.goo.gl/u8ZVNXh7oZvu2UkY6

(from ff3Oth exhibit stuffs)

Also the line "it is the heroine Aerith that opens Cloud's eyes and brings him closer to understanding the mystery that is his past" as well as the rooftop scene where Cloud laughs with Aerith being specifically called out by them as the time Cloud laughs.

 

[Erotic Materia]

And EM, blame Mako for being unable to resist arguing about it. He didn't have to respond and start this off again.

Dude. Do you not see the irony in that statement?