Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[oty]

Yup. We just hope Square does that

 

[Jairus]

I think it will, I just also think there's room to give them a chance to atone for that, is all.

 

[Clement Rage]

Is it confirmed that

Spoiler

Heidi and Prez blew the reactor on purpose? That's another '...sigh' moment from me.

Considering that I'm avoiding as much news as possible, the fact that I have two 'urgh' moments already may not be a good sign.

 

[Jairus]

The demo clearly showed that, yes.

 

[Clement Rage]

You may consider the above '...sigh' official, then.

 

[Odysseus]

When I heard about that from the leak I was a little disappointed, but by the time I saw it in the demo it was more like "Oh, okay." I dunno, the way its shown, it didn't really bother me.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm choosing to be less bothered about it than I could be, but for me it's still of great importance that the main characters at least remain unaware of the truth.

I don't need them

Spoiler

"forgiving" themselves for not actually doing much of anything.

Also, I'm adding spoiler tags to this discussion about the thing.

 

[Jairus]

Well, Tres, as I said,

Spoiler

they still let themselves be duped by Shinra into being the scapegoat and unwittingly played right into Shinra's hands. That would certainly leave them still feeling somewhat responsible for what happened given that they were the reason and excuse that it did. That if they hadn't gone after the reactor in the first place, Shinra wouldn't have been able to use them as cover to do what they did. So it can be said that Avalanche still contributed, even if it was indirect, and thus they could still feel guilt about it and the need to address it for allowing themselves to be used to bring about so much death, even if they didn't directly cause it.

Finding out the truth is part of that process, and I could see Reeve - who is pretty technogically-minded - perhaps eventually discovering transmission logs from Heidegger's phone showing the activation of the mechs at the time the reactor went up. Maybe he takes after Cait and does a bit of snooping around later in the overall series story as part of his turnaround to help Avalanche, hacking into the Shinra system to see what Heidegger's been up to since he hates and mistrusts him and would want to find out anything he can. That could be where he finds the logs. It's just a theory, of course, but it could be a possible way for the crew to find out what really happened.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

(Adding spoiler tags to your post.)

For me, that's just not going to work. It's already a questionable change from what was there before, but at least one I can live with without bitterness since it leaves the characters' existing arcs as they are.

Spoiler

Changing their knowledge of that event in addition to the facts of it, though, also changes the facts as they understood them in the post-FFVII material where they went about processing their guilt and looking for atonement in their own ways. The idea of having part of Tifa wish that the Lifestream would wash her and the place of her mistakes away along with Meteor ... because "she let herself be duped" ... while the tragedy of people's actual lives being destroyed is right before her eyes -- that's just about the most myopically painful cringe I can imagine.

Only in the most melodrama-fueled writing would getting duped by someone into thinking you're responsible for something terrible they did (and wanted to do anyway) be a thing worth going through existential anguish over. I personally can't stand angst over crap that just isn't that big of a deal. Like Angeal "losing his honor" because he found out he was experimented on prior to birth and the other experimentation done on him as a young man. Which he volunteered for.

Nope. Can't do it.

 

[oty]

Spoiler

I feel like if they dont find out, it will just a loose end people will, on the course of the road, wonder themselves "what if?". In my opinion, just reveal to them and change the principle. Make it a question of fundamentals: how their attitude is their real wrongdoing, their arrogance and their violence. Make them questions their motives, not just their acts. It can actually add a surprisingly amount of depth, making it a very social critique in a sense. What is wrong, your thoughts and attitudes, or just your actions? You knew, and saw, the consequences of your actions, why didnt you stop? That kind of yada yada

 

[Jairus]

(Adding spoiler tags to your post.)

For me, that's just not going to work. It's already a questionable change from what was there before, but at least one I can live with without bitterness since it leaves the characters' existing arcs as they are.

Spoiler

Changing their knowledge of that event in addition to the facts of it, though, also changes the facts as they understood them in the post-FFVII material where they went about processing their guilt and looking for atonement in their own ways. The idea of having part of Tifa wish that the Lifestream would wash her and the place of her mistakes away along with Meteor ... because "she let herself be duped" ... while the tragedy of people's actual lives being destroyed is right before her eyes -- that's just about the most myopically painful cringe I can imagine.

Only in the most melodrama-fueled writing would getting duped by someone into thinking you're responsible for something terrible they did (and wanted to do anyway) be a thing worth going through existential anguish over. I personally can't stand angst over crap that just isn't that big of a deal. Like Angeal "losing his honor" because he found out he was experimented on prior to birth and the other experimentation done on him as a young man. Which he volunteered for.

Nope. Can't do it.

Spoiler

Except that the post FFVII-material already out there was based on the original game, not the remake. Any new post-game content would be different. Story elements from previous post-game material aren't likely to have an impact on any post-remake material. You're misunderstanding what I'm talking about. It's human nature to blame oneself for things one might not have been directly responsible for if there's even some part that they contributed to either directly or indirectly. I'm not saying existential anguish, but one can feel a measure of guilt without it. And I never said anything about having Tifa wish that - you're putting words in my mouth.

The scientists who initially created the A-bomb, for example, didn't themselves decide how it was going to be used. But they still carried a measure of responsibility for the results of that use. And I'm sure they were well aware of that. It's just an example of how even indirect culpability can affect a person, depending on the circumstances.

Character arcs must have resolution within their stories, and knowing the truth behind the reactor bombing is a way to add fuel to Avalanche's fight against Shinra on top of what they already have as well as do what Oty said and address the why of what they do.

 

[Clement Rage]

Apologies all for not spoilering.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

(Adding spoiler tags to your post.)

For me, that's just not going to work. It's already a questionable change from what was there before, but at least one I can live with without bitterness since it leaves the characters' existing arcs as they are.

Spoiler

Changing their knowledge of that event in addition to the facts of it, though, also changes the facts as they understood them in the post-FFVII material where they went about processing their guilt and looking for atonement in their own ways. The idea of having part of Tifa wish that the Lifestream would wash her and the place of her mistakes away along with Meteor ... because "she let herself be duped" ... while the tragedy of people's actual lives being destroyed is right before her eyes -- that's just about the most myopically painful cringe I can imagine.

Only in the most melodrama-fueled writing would getting duped by someone into thinking you're responsible for something terrible they did (and wanted to do anyway) be a thing worth going through existential anguish over. I personally can't stand angst over crap that just isn't that big of a deal. Like Angeal "losing his honor" because he found out he was experimented on prior to birth and the other experimentation done on him as a young man. Which he volunteered for.

Nope. Can't do it.

Not holding back at all, huh? lmao But really, though:

Spoiler

Is the premise of that circumstance that different from say, Cloud's grief in AC? Though if you dislike that as well, that is fair, but for I've seen it's quite common to have characters "blame themselves" for things that aren't theirs to shoulder, or be bogged down by something they couldn't do something about anyway. (which sometimes, it was something that could've been done, but they didn't for whatever reason that probably adds to their grief) If it sounds like melodrama angst that is cringy, well...that sounds pretty close to how even real-life people can get, honestly. XD

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Except that the post FFVII-material already out there was based on the original game, not the remake. Any new post-game content would be different.

Kitase recently said that "all of the lore from the works created after the original game, the Compilation of Final Fantasy 7, that’s all very much in the base of the canon for the remake, and going forward it will be too."

We should basically assume that the events of the Compilation happened in both the universe of the original game and the universe of the remake.

And I never said anything about having Tifa wish that - you're putting words in my mouth.

I was clearly talking about the opening scene from "Episode:Tifa" of "On the Way to A Smile." =|

Not holding back at all, huh? lmao But really, though:

Spoiler

Is the premise of that circumstance that different from say, Cloud's grief in AC? Though if you dislike that as well, that is fair, but for I've seen it's quite common to have characters "blame themselves" for things that aren't theirs to shoulder, or be bogged down by something they couldn't do something about anyway. (which sometimes, it was something that could've been done, but they didn't for whatever reason that probably adds to their grief) If it sounds like melodrama angst that is cringy, well...that sounds pretty close to how even real-life people can get, honestly. XD

Spoiler

That is true, of course, and it can be just as infuriating to deal with in real life. XD I think we even see that self-awareness in the writing of AC with Tifa finally having to get Real Talk with Cloud after patiently waiting for him to get it together.

I can give the premise of Cloud's mopiness a pass, though, because the dude has established mental illness and inferiority complexes. Survivor's guilt eating him up and then sinking into depression after geostigma does its thing is at least a logical story progression for him even if blaming himself for all those things wasn't logical behavior.

Taking the gravity of really having been part of something that hurt people away from Tifa's anguish would just make her look silly to me. Especially in a moment like the opening of "Episode:Tifa," juxtaposed against all that's happening in Midgar below.

 

[Clement Rage]

I mean, Cloud is dying slowly and painfully, it's not some kind of inconsequential concern. That's in addition to repeatedly watching people he loves die in front of him in various grisly ways while powerless to stop it. And now he's got to watch Denzel die on top of that.

These are not small issues he should just get over with some kind of pep talk.

Edit: I think we kind of need to see the game in its entirety before we can know what applies compilationwise

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I mean, Cloud is dying slowly and painfully, it's not some kind of inconsequential concern. That's in addition to repeatedly watching people he loves die in front of him in various grisly ways while powerless to stop it. And now he's got to watch Denzel die on top of that.

These are not small issues he should just get over with some kind of pep talk.

That's what I said.

 

[Theozilla]

Though isn’t

Spoiler

Tifa’s angst in Episode: Tifa, already somewhat melodramatic since Tifa herself didn’t even directly participate in the Reactor 1 bombing? So even in the OG Tifa wasn’t directly responsible for any casualties from the Reactor 1 bombing. Also, this is just me, but I feel like in the OTWTAS novellas, part of the guilt was also over the Sector 7 plate falling. I think a lot of Avalanche’s guilt in general comes/came from stuff they aren’t directly at fault for, simply because Avalanche’s activities created a target on them and that also caused collateral damage, even if it was perpetrated by Shinra.
Of course then are also people who are arguing that Jessie’s lines in the OG were meant to imply that Shinra was involved in the bombing of Reactor 1 even in the OG.
Regardless, while I am not super enthused over the Remake change, it doesn’t bother me either (since Avalanche still has some culpability, even if Shinra has much more). I definitely agree that the Remake really just needs to be played out in full to see how the execution of said addition/change/expansion goes.

 

[Jairus]

Kitase recently said that "all of the lore from the works created after the original game, the Compilation of Final Fantasy 7, that’s all very much in the base of the canon for the remake, and going forward it will be too."

We should basically assume that the events of the Compilation happened in both the universe of the original game and the universe of the remake.

Many elements of it, yes, but not necessarily all the specific events. That quote says nothing of those. I think he meant more that they're taking many elements of the Compilation and remixing them into a coherent lore rather than say every event in them actually happened, especially when some of them clearly contradict each other and can't have both happened - such as Last Order/Crisis Core and their depiction of what ultimately happened to Sephiroth in the Nibel reactor. Both show it completely different, so both can't be true - either Cloud threw him in or he didn't. Which means that the remake can't use both versions, they have to choose. Thus, using elements but not saying every single moment and event happened in the remake's canon.

I was clearly talking about the opening scene from "Episode:Tifa" of "On the Way to A Smile." =|

It's been a while since I've read that, but why would you think any such pondering about any guilt concerning the reactor bombings would be done at that moment instead of another?

Spoiler

Taking the gravity of really having been part of something that hurt people away from Tifa's anguish would just make her look silly to me. Especially in a moment like the opening of "Episode:Tifa," juxtaposed against all that's happening in Midgar below.

But she was part of it. Indirect does not mean not responsible. As has already been pointed out to you.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The whole thing about

Spoiler

Shinra being behind the reactor exploding

is not something I see derailing the story beats and characterization of the main characters. It's demonstrated away from the awareness of the characters and is narratively intended to frame the perspective and direction President Shinra and the company are coming from.

Shinra wants war. They are not fucking around and want to crush AVALANCHE literally and metaphorically. They intend to wipe them out with the full strength of Public Security and then wage a propaganda war with their ideology to ensure they get no public support to rally the public to their cause.

They need AVALANCHE to do wide scale collateral damage to frame them as a menace and pin them as agents of Wutai separatists.

Spoiler

More cells of AVALANCHE exist that were unaffiliated with Fuhito's fanatical faction and by pinning the reactor bombing on them, they intend to crush them once and for all. They need the body count to accomplish this goal.

All of this sets up how ruthless and cruel the Shinra company are and sets them up as a more active antagonistic force. This isn't about alleviating or removing guilt from AVALANCHE, it's about setting up a larger conflict between the two groups.

 

[Odysseus]

Spoiler

I've seen it argued that the plate drop is enough to establish Shinra's ruthlessness, and that them also being responsible for the reactor is redundant.
If this were the original game, I'd agree, but it isn't. From what I understand, plate fall happens well into the remake. Over half way through. So there's potentially 20 hours of gameplay before then. Shinra needs to be established as the ruthless group they are earlier than that.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

I definitely want to see how it all plays out in the remake, but

Spoiler

unless Avalanche finds out that Shinra was behind the number 1 reactor blowing right away, I think they're still plenty culpable just because they chose to go after the next reactor regardless. They saw all the death and destruction--and while assuming they were responsible--went to go do it again. To me, this makes them seem both dangerous and reckless/incompetent, which in some ways is a scarier combo.

Not to mention the Inside FFVIIR documentary from the other day shows Avalanche celebrating at a train station, which I assume happens after the first bombing mission. So they're excited enough to jump around even seeing all of the destruction they believe they caused, which I don't think is a great look, but fits their character.

 

[LNK]

I definitely want to see how it all plays out in the remake, but

Spoiler

unless Avalanche finds out that Shinra was behind the number 1 reactor blowing right away, I think they're still plenty culpable just because they chose to go after the next reactor regardless. They saw all the death and destruction--and while assuming they were responsible--went to go do it again. To me, this makes them seem both dangerous and reckless/incompetent, which in some ways is a scarier combo.

Not to mention the Inside FFVIIR documentary from the other day shows Avalanche celebrating at a train station, which I assume happens after the first bombing mission. So they're excited enough to jump around even seeing all of the destruction they believe they caused, which I don't think is a great look, but fits their character.

Spoiler: Spoiler

I wonder if the explosion Shinra did in the demo is from a later reactor then. Cause I agree. If Avalanche is jumping up and down after blowing a reactor, after the demo one, they are definitely culpable. Maybe SE is deceiving us a little with what happened in the demo

 

[Jairus]

Spoiler

I've seen it argued that the plate drop is enough to establish Shinra's ruthlessness, and that them also being responsible for the reactor is redundant.
If this were the original game, I'd agree, but it isn't. From what I understand, plate fall happens well into the remake. Over half way through. So there's potentially 20 hours of gameplay before then. Shinra needs to be established as the ruthless group they are earlier than that.

Spoiler

It might be even more than 20 hours before the plate drop considering what Nomura said about the main story alone being 50-60 hours. So it could be more like 30 or so.

 

[Odysseus]

Spoiler

I think they're still plenty culpable just because they chose to go after the next reactor regardless. They saw all the death and destruction--and while assuming they were responsible--went to go do it again. To me, this makes them seem both dangerous and reckless/incompetent, which in some ways is a scarier combo.

That was my take on things too back when I found out about this originally. Just because they didn't actually do it doesn't make them innocent. They still think they did, and don't seem to bent out of shape about the damage they caused. It makes Avalanche seem powerless, playing right into Shinra's plan throughout the entire game. Not once do they have the upper hand. This way, when sephiroth comes in and destroys shinra in one night after the party failed to make a dent the entire game, it really establishes Sephiroth as completely beyond them.

I wonder how long Avalanche will be in good spirits, though. Jessie was already starting to feel the weight of their actions as early as when they get back to the bar in the original.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Many elements of it, yes, but not necessarily all the specific events. That quote says nothing of those. I think he meant more that they're taking many elements of the Compilation and remixing them into a coherent lore rather than say every event in them actually happened, especially when some of them clearly contradict each other and can't have both happened - such as Last Order/Crisis Core and their depiction of what ultimately happened to Sephiroth in the Nibel reactor. Both show it completely different, so both can't be true - either Cloud threw him in or he didn't.

Square addressed that back in the first FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania in 2008. Last Order was designated as non-canon way back then.

It's been a while since I've read that, but why would you think any such pondering about any guilt concerning the reactor bombings would be done at that moment instead of another?

No one said anything about "instead of another," but it's on the page that she was thinking about it at that moment.

=|