Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[Stiggie]

You're welcome & thanks for diving into it as it's a long read – but it's made me think about VII's story really differently and start to be interested in getting different things from Remake. Mostly I've gotten really involved in all of the tough existential questions around life & death, and how those are being explored in a fantasy setting, 'cause that carries a lot of added weight for me these days.

Anything that helps to add in layers of complexity to the characters and their struggles that Remake's been doing will be really great. I've loved how they opened up on those things with Barret & Tifa, and I can only expect that we'll be getting more of that with the other characters. There're lots of potential opportunities on that stuff for Vincent, Yuffie, Cid, & Even Cait Sith.

Also, I haven't played Nier: Automata, but it's one I've thought about looking into when I have a bit more cognitive bandwidth to play games.






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Well, I was looking into looking into the sefirot path things for an analysis of my own, but it's a bit too metaphysical for my way of thinking I've found, so I am having difficulties using it to make predictions. I kind of feel like it could be used to predict, or retroactively justify, anything as long as you're willing to squint at it enough.

But from some of the things you've said I think you will absolutely LOVE what Nier: Automata does. It has my favorite take on nihilism, existentialism, and philosophy in general ever in gaming, and the way it presents, guides, and forces you to accept and reject some of these ideas is just brilliant. The ending had me crying for....well, as long as Crisis Core had, but for entirely different reasons, because of just the beauty of what the game was doing from a design and philosophy perspective.

Edit, and to keep it on topic, for the people who HAVE played Nier, I don't want FFVII to have a similar ending to that, despite how much I loved it there, I think that ending worked because the entire game was designed around it. I think the 23 year history of FFFVII makes it so that I would absolutely LOATHE it if something similar happened in the remake.

Even if deep symbolic reasons can be found why it would be fitting, those reasons are not what we as the players experience as we are playing, it's not how we perceive the story of FFVII, which means that symbolism should mostly be an easter egg imo, it shouldn't be used to justify changing some of the more surface level themes and experiences that the players have taken from the story.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

A lot of it is connected to what Sakaguchi was dealing with at the time, and how he was compartmentalizing his emotions in a structured way given his engineering background. That's when it started to make more sense about how & why it influenced certain elements of the story, but less in a predictive way, and more in a "how these concepts were built upon" & "what rules they follow in the story" sort of way to communicate those ideas within the story. Having the original story made it interesting to think about how much things might change, and also look at what they've already done in remake to reinforce certain themes.

I think that Red XIII is the biggest wildcard for me at the moment, because I'm really curious how they're going to portray the Gi Cave. It's the closest that Final Fantasy VII gets to exploring the idea of the undead, and given what they've done in the train graveyard in Remake, I'm really looking forward to learning a lot more about how those concepts are treated in the game's world. It's definitely one of the places where I want to get the feel of more ancient parts of the world.




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[Meleth]

I feel weird that my main concern is how they're going to handle

Spoiler: (ending spoiler)

Biggs. Looks like not that many care about his ending even though it's completely different from his canon one. The guy is easily one of my favourite characters and it worries me that ... no one is talking about it? I don't think I've seen a single theory about him and I fear that the devs are not going to expand his story as a consequence - as in: "no one seems to care so we won't waste time on him". Honestly. If they spared him just to kill him off again (they made us believe that he died at the pillar), I'm going to be big mad.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm certainly interested in seeing what they make of his fate (and

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Wedge's and Jessie's, for that matter), but we also don't really have much to go on to theorize with about that particular plot thread.

His death in the original wasn't irrelevant, but it also wasn't presented as the narrative cornerstone that Aerith's was, neither in the game nor its subsequent multimedia and interviews, so what can we draw on for predictions? If someone has insight that goes beyond recognition that he's alive and may show up again, I absolutely would love to see it, but thus far it hasn't invoked more cause for discussion than that.

There's just so much less to speculate about with him (or Jessie or Wedge) than with Aerith, and far less narrative significance to call to mind as a reason to do so.

 

[Jairus]

It can still be done, though. They're still part of the story. And there's many directions SE could go with them, including making them more a part of the narrative (this isn't the OG, after all). So there may be more to speculate about than you think.

 

[Odysseus]

I feel weird that my main concern is how they're going to handle

Spoiler: (ending spoiler)

Biggs. Looks like not that many care about his ending even though it's completely different from his canon one. The guy is easily one of my favourite characters and it worries me that ... no one is talking about it? I don't think I've seen a single theory about him and I fear that the devs are not going to expand his story as a consequence - as in: "no one seems to care so we won't waste time on him". Honestly. If they spared him just to kill him off again (they made us believe that he died at the pillar), I'm going to be big mad.

I had a theory that the fort condor scenario would be transformed into a large scale conflict between Avalanche HQ and Shinra, and the party would meet with

Spoiler: (ending spoiler)

Biggs (and maybe also Wedge/Jessie if they didn't die either) who would have regrouped with the other Avalanche cell once he recovered from his injuries.

It's a little baseless, but it's the best use of him I could think of. It'd give the party a more personal connection to the conflict.

 

[Ite]

I had a theory that the fort condor scenario would be transformed into a large scale conflict between Avalanche HQ and Shinra, and the party would meet with Biggs (and maybe also Wedge/Jessie if they didn't die either) who would have regrouped with the other Avalanche cell once he recovered from his injuries. It's a little baseless, but it's the best use of him I could think of. It'd give the party a more personal connection to the conflict.

I am thinking that’s what they’ll do. Since nothing is optional in video games anymore, they’ve got to weave FC into the main plot somehow. It’s what I did, although I didn’t make them “Avalanche,” just dissidents already allied with Barret.

 

[LNK]

I had a theory that the fort condor scenario would be transformed into a large scale conflict between Avalanche HQ and Shinra, and the party would meet with

Spoiler: (ending spoiler)

Biggs (and maybe also Wedge/Jessie if they didn't die either) who would have regrouped with the other Avalanche cell once he recovered from his injuries. It's a little baseless, but it's the best use of him I could think of. It'd give the party a more personal connection to the conflict.

If I remember right, you or someone else on here brought that up awhile back too!

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I would like that. I always found the Fort Condor section pretty tedious and sometimes I skip it altogether.

 

[Odysseus]

If I remember right, you or someone else on here brought that up awhile back too!

Yeah I've brought up this idea before. It just makes sense to me.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It can still be done, though. They're still part of the story. And there's many directions SE could go with them, including making them more a part of the narrative (this isn't the OG, after all). So there may be more to speculate about than you think.

What I mean is that there's nothing specific to speculate over regarding how such developments could impact the previously known narrative. That's why the explanation for the confusion @Meleth mentioned is simply that there's very little to talk about, and what is asking to be discussed was quickly gone through. "Literally anything could happen" isn't a big jumping-off point for theories. It's not a pointed question, or even a question at all.

To put it another way, there's a reason writing prompts include more details than just "Write whatever you want."

There's a lot that could happen right now, but not really any obvious narrative consequences to consider. At this point, I'm not even sure what's left to be said about the possibilities regarding Aerith and

Spoiler: (ending spoilers)

Zack.

There were way more questions to be assessed with them, and even those have been mined to the point where most everyone is in wait-and-see mode.

 

[Rydeen]

This vein of discussion really does illustrate how unknown everything really is. When will we encounter the Avalanche organization again? What will they be doing? How does Rufus play into the whole thing, especially after his ascent to president? If one or more of the

Spoiler: (speculative ending/next game spoilers)

BWJ trio are alive, where will we see them? Will they form their own group with some other folks? Will they join the party or join another cell? Would they want to join another cell and would that cell accept them? What was the real reason Barret's group was labelled as extreme? I love the politics of this world, so I'd love to see this expanded.

 

[Odysseus]

I think the biggest reason to keep

Spoiler: (speculative ending/next game spoilers)

biggs and potentially the others alive is to address an area the original was kinda lacking in: supporting characters. The plot was fairly disconnected in the original so it wasn't that noticeable, but in the far more cinematic style of the remake I feel like it would be more noticable. There really isn't anyone on the MC's side throughout the game besides Buhgenhaggen, so ripping a few nobody NPCs from the original and expanding their roles can remedy this.

Now you'd have Biggs along with the main Avalanche group working behind the scenes and occasionally assisting the main party. If Jessie isn't a bloody pancake, she could help the party get in good with Dio at the hold saucer since she worked there, Wedge could take command of the cat house in Wutai to help catch Yuffie. I dunno. It makes the world feel bigger and like there's more going on outside the purview of the main cast.

 

[Rydeen]

I wonder how complicated they'll make it. What if Avalanche as an org becomes an antagonist? Even them remaining an anti-hero institution like Rufus' Shinra would serve to highlight just how alone the party is in the world without any legit allies aside from some NPCs and local governments. Regarding the

Spoiler: (speculative ending/next game spoilers)

trio or whatever is left of it, I have a hard time believing that they would just join another cell, since they obviously have some bad blood with HQ (I also wonder where HQ would be - Cosmo Canyon seems like it would make sense, but it isn't an industrial area..). I feel like they would start another splinter group if anything, and would definitely assist the party.

 

[Odysseus]

Regarding the

Spoiler: (speculative ending/next game spoilers)

trio or whatever is left of it, I have a hard time believing that they would just join another cell, since they obviously have some bad blood with HQ (I also wonder where HQ would be - Cosmo Canyon seems like it would make sense, but it isn't an industrial area..). I feel like they would start another splinter group if anything, and would definitely assist the party.

I was basing my assumption on

Spoiler: (speculative ending/next game spoilers)

wedge working with Domino, but you're right. Biggs is the only one really worth talking about now since the other two are probably dead, so I wonder what Biggs would do on his own? Barret mentions a few other people we never meet during his garden scene, maybe Biggs will reappear with them.

 

[Jairus]

Yeah, the

Spoiler: (speculative ending/next game spoilers)

trio would definitely help Cloud and the others out if they're at all able. If she's alive (and remains an NPC, admittedly the more likely route), I could see Jessie doing for equipment what Chadley does for materia, creating new and rare weapons, armor, and accessories for the group as the game goes on, stuff you can't get anywhere else. It would play right into her skills as a technological genius. Maybe you'd have to bring her certain materials for her to make new gear, things that you'd probably win from monsters and such or find in explorable areas. The more rare and harder to find the materials, the better the equipment she can make for you. It could become its own quest line, sort of like how Chadley has his own set of quests. She could also give you messages and quests from Avalanche HQ since she has a contact there, the only one that'll talk to Barret's cell. She could also go with the gang on the journey so you wouldn't have to go halfway across the world whenever you wanted to give her more materials, get more equipment from her, or get new quests from her.

I'm not sure yet what Biggs and Wedge could do, but I'm sure there's some way they could help out. They're a duo, so it'd make sense, I think, that whatever role they play, it'd be something they both do together. Maybe they could assist in infiltrating Junon (instead of the OG dolphin route) to create a more realistic scenario for getting up there as well as assisting at Fort Condor like Ody suggested. And Ody, I know you're trying not to get your hopes up, but keep in mind that SE surely knew exactly what putting Jessie's glove on the dresser would make people think. And after making sure every other named NPC in Sector 7 survived, do you really think they'd leave out Jessie and Wedge? We only saw half of the room Biggs was in. The camera angle carefully hid the other half. Jessie could've been there recuperating as well.

 

[Rydeen]

Well, if

Spoiler: (speculative ending/next game spoilers)

Jessie is alive (I'm not convinced either way until more info comes out - I think it's intentionally ambiguous), having her be a "weapons guy" would be cool. That part of her character was a bit disjointed in the remake. Like she was this actress that randomly became a techie, but we never see her actually being techie like in the OG, just showing up with weapons? I am torn between wanting her to be a tragic character we never got to know but also wanting to see her be more developed and interact more with the party.

Having one or more of them act like a mole makes sense, though on the same hand it's hard to gauge how much Avalanche trusts them. Though by the end it seemed like they trusted them more than it seemed, given the scenario with Wedge.

If Rufus was embezzling funds to Avalanche or even running them as controlled opposition, what would he do as president? My guess is he would start having them dismantled from the inside. Or perhaps profit off the conflict by continuing to provide them resources and scapegoating the organization to keep the population in line (I can see OG Rufus doing something shady like this, but I'm a little uncertain that Remake Rufus would do this).

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

We know one thing for sure about Rufus:
1. He deliberately blew up the Avalanche helicopter as he came in to land on the Shinra building
We know one probable thing about Rufus:
1. He coordinated the attack on the Shinra building with Avalanche HQ, and had almost certainly come to either kill or depose his father himself
This suggests to me that he always intended to turn around and eliminate Avalanche the moment they had served their purpose.

However, he blew up their helicopter before he knew for sure that his father was dead and that his coup had succeeded, which seems a bit hasty to me.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Spoiler: (speculative ending/next game spoilers)

Barret mentions a few other people we never meet during his garden scene, maybe Biggs will reappear with them.

Spoiler

Maybe so, but I kind of expect that they're dead. At the least, their names appear on the dartboard score list, so they presumably were normally in Sector 7.

We aren't given names for most of the folks who died fighting at the pillar, though, so of course they could be fine ... but if they were in the vicinity, it seems rather unlikely they wouldn't have joined the fight. And Barret seemed to be of the understanding that they were in the area since he tries to offer himself encouragement they could be alright.

 

[Odysseus]

Spoiler

Maybe so, but I kind of expect that they're dead. At the least, their names appear on the dartboard score list, so they presumably were normally in Sector 7.

We aren't given names for most of the folks who died fighting at the pillar, though, so of course they could be fine ... but if they were in the vicinity, it seems rather unlikely they wouldn't have joined the fight. And Barret seemed to be of the understanding that they were in the area since he tries to offer himself encouragement they could be alright.

Spoiler

I dunno, it feels extra arbitrary to establish these people only after they died. Why, to make platefall more tragic? Seems kind of unnecessary to me.

 

[Clement Rage]

Spoiler

We know one probable thing about Rufus:
1. He coordinated the attack on the Shinra building with Avalanche HQ, and had almost certainly come to either kill or depose his father himself
This suggests to me that he always intended to turn around and eliminate Avalanche the moment they had served their purpose.

I suspect you're right, in which case...arrgh. On the one hand, it gives him back some much needed edge, on the other, it's another achievement taken away from the leads.

 

[Odysseus]

I think I'm just diametrically opposed to your viewpoint, Clement. I think it's pretty thematically fitting that the leads end up getting strung along in other people's plans and don't always accomplish things themselves.

 

[Clement Rage]

Spoiler: Remake

I don't have a pathological objection to people being manipulated, in general. (My favourite game series is Legacy of Kain) This part of the game is all about being Sephiroth's puppet, making the leads' Rufus' puppet as well just takes things too far for me. I need the leads to have some agency of their own.

I don't think it serves Rufus' character either to have him so much in control of things, struggles are more interesting than dominance.

We'll see what happens in part 2, but I expect things are more likely to go your way.
[/spoiler

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't see anything being taken away from the leads. They didn't

Spoiler

go into the Shinra building to overthrow President Shinra, as Cloud and Tifa keep reminding Barret. Their mission is to get Aerith and get out. They have no idea they've accidentally stumbled into the middle of a much bigger operation being carried out by Avalanche HQ. Barret's cell is a rogue cell; nobody in Avalanche HQ talks to Barret or Barret's people. Meawhile Rufus was arriving by helicopter to kill or overthrow his dad, only to find the deed done for him (and apparently by Sephiroth, which really makes no sense since Sephiroth is dead. Isn't he?).

Cloud & Co complete their mission, Cloud briefly detours to cross swords with Rufus because what's FFVII without at least one sexy gay boss battle replete with suggestive banter? Cloud defeats Rufus, is rescued by Tifa, they all scarper, escape the Shinra Building and the coup taking place therein (does the penny ever dropthat a coup was in train while they were rescuing Aerith?) and then hightail it out of Midgar, pausing only long enough to take down some really ridiculous bosses and then Sephiroth.

Nothing that the party achieves in part 1 owes anything to Rufus, and nothing Rufus achieves in Part 1 owes anything to the party. The fact that their paths all cross in the Presidential suite on that fateful night is just a big coinkidink.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm not sure I see where they're being puppeted by Rufus here, though? They just happened to be in the same place and with similar ideas at the same time.

EDIT: Somehow beaten to the punch by Lic despite that post's length. XD I got distracted while typing this, okay?