Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)
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Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Folks, I'm no mod, but this thread is outside the Remake Spoilers section, so you might want to tag things.
The gang's raid only gets anywhere with a massive amount of unsolicited help from HQ, though. If he's co-ordinating AVALANCHE operations in Shinra HQ, then they're on his strings.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Well, in the OG they only got as far as they got with the help of Mayor Domino.
In the OG, they would never have been able to bust out of Hojo's lab prison without the help of Sephiroth.
All in all, the gang needed just as much help in the OG as they do in the Remake.
It wasn't a big stretch for the Remake to make the disaffected Domino Avalanche's man inside. In fact, it made sense. He hates Shinra so much, why wouldn't he reach out to make common cause with Shinra's enemies? So, very little change there. If Rufus is still controlling Avalanche, then technically Domino is under Rufus's command. However, we have no reason to suppose that Domino knows the truth about who controls Avalanche.
In the OG, they would never have been able to bust out of Hojo's lab prison without the help of Sephiroth.
IIRC, in the Remake they do much more for themselves, with some help from Domino.
All in all, the gang needed just as much help in the OG as they do in the Remake.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
They get one keycard from Domino in the OG. In the Remake they get all of them from him or through his arrangements, (including directions to the bathroom on the Exec's floor) as well as him quashing tripped alarms and security.
In the OG, Sephiroth opens one door, and they fight their way out themselves, after having found their way in themselves. In Remake, HQ gets them in (with Domino making fun of how ineffective they are), Hojo intentionally letting them out of his ant farm, AND help from the Whispers, and AVALANCHE HQ giving them their escape route. If Rufus is indeed co-ordinating AVALANCHE's ops in Shinra HQ, then they had his help through AVALANCHE HQ.
In the OG, Sephiroth opens one door, and they fight their way out themselves, after having found their way in themselves. In Remake, HQ gets them in (with Domino making fun of how ineffective they are), Hojo intentionally letting them out of his ant farm, AND help from the Whispers, and AVALANCHE HQ giving them their escape route. If Rufus is indeed co-ordinating AVALANCHE's ops in Shinra HQ, then they had his help through AVALANCHE HQ.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Okay then, if you are determined to undermine the party's achievements.
IMHO, Remake Domino solved a number of major plot-holes in the Shinra building mission, such as why the hell it took so long for anyone to realise they were there. It is Domino's nature to mock others and inflate himself; for the party, his mockery is water off a duck's back because they can see he has issues. In the OG, the party only managed to get a key card because someone mistook them for a janitor, which seems even more random than getting help from Domino. In both games, the fact that they got all the way to Hojo's labs was due more to luck than to their own skill and judgement.
In the OG, Cloud and Co didn't "fight their way" out of the cells, aside from the random enemies they encountered, and if you're lucky you can get all the way to President's desk without fighting more than one of those. Or you could simply run away from the battle. Did Hojo intentionally let them out of the Drum, or did they figure out the exit for themselves? I could have done without the Drum tbh, but it hardly portrays the party as lacking in either courage or skill (or patience).
Rufus certainly wasn't helping Cloud & Co deliberately! And if Avalanche hadn't told them to make their escape from the roof, they'd have fled without the Cloud/Rufus boss fight. And Avalanche HQ's "help" amounted to nothing anyway, since Rufus shot the chopper down.
When I played through these chapters, the thought "Oh dear, if only Cloud & Co were allowed to do something for themselves," never crossed my mind, though it obviously did yours. [/quote]
In the OG, Cloud and Co didn't "fight their way" out of the cells, aside from the random enemies they encountered, and if you're lucky you can get all the way to President's desk without fighting more than one of those. Or you could simply run away from the battle. Did Hojo intentionally let them out of the Drum, or did they figure out the exit for themselves? I could have done without the Drum tbh, but it hardly portrays the party as lacking in either courage or skill (or patience).
Rufus certainly wasn't helping Cloud & Co deliberately! And if Avalanche hadn't told them to make their escape from the roof, they'd have fled without the Cloud/Rufus boss fight. And Avalanche HQ's "help" amounted to nothing anyway, since Rufus shot the chopper down.
When I played through these chapters, the thought "Oh dear, if only Cloud & Co were allowed to do something for themselves," never crossed my mind, though it obviously did yours. [/quote]
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
I am not 'determined' to do anything. Everything I'm saying is right there in the game, I'm not making shit up here. These are my honest opinions. What do you think I'm doing, playing to the crowd?
I did not undermine the party's achievements, the game did. You disagree? Okay.
I did not undermine the party's achievements, the game did. You disagree? Okay.
It's explicit, Red says something along the lines of 'that elevator only moves if Hojo wants it to.'
OG, the crew can avoid guards by taking the slow way up, and also avoid security on floor 60. They do things to get their keycards (sometimes stupid things, yes, but they still have to do things rather than just be handed them.)
Domino was a bigger plothole in the remake for me. Giving them a keycard when they get to his office seems like something someone of his character is much more likely to do (and he's much less likely to be caught) than going to enormous efforts to help people he doesn't know (without even knowing their mission) crack security which makes it obvious that someone was helping from the inside and start security hunting for them.
OG, the crew can avoid guards by taking the slow way up, and also avoid security on floor 60. They do things to get their keycards (sometimes stupid things, yes, but they still have to do things rather than just be handed them.)
Domino was a bigger plothole in the remake for me. Giving them a keycard when they get to his office seems like something someone of his character is much more likely to do (and he's much less likely to be caught) than going to enormous efforts to help people he doesn't know (without even knowing their mission) crack security which makes it obvious that someone was helping from the inside and start security hunting for them.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Not accurate. Tifa's awful platforming sequence gets them their first keycard in the remake.
Here, Hojo opens some doors and they fight their way out (in far more spectacular fashion than in the original).
Not accurate in so many ways. =|
They still make their own way in, just as in the original game. Once in, they then still get unexpected assistance to help them progress, just as in the original game. And Domino (not HQ) assists them, just as in the original game.
The only meaningful difference here is that there is now at least a handwavey explanation (blessedly tied to the already established world building in the form of Mayor Domino) for their continued success once inside rather than just "Thank God nobody raised the alarm despite the guards they took out at the entrance and on the elevator ride. Or those on the 59th floor, even if they did take the stairs. And thankfully that one guy watching the monitors was asleep on the job -- oh, wait, nevermind, these first couple of guards on the 60th floor don't care if they see you anyway; they just tell you to leave, but then don't make sure that you do. Or even attack you if you keep getting discovered by the other guards on this floor. And praise the goddess that this presumptive buffoon on the 61st floor thinks you're maintenance."
If you think that Domino choosing to help guys who were recognizably Avalanche despite not knowing the specifics of their mission is more of a stretch than all of that bullshit, then I can't help you. =|
They still make their own way in, just as in the original game. Once in, they then still get unexpected assistance to help them progress, just as in the original game. And Domino (not HQ) assists them, just as in the original game.
The only meaningful difference here is that there is now at least a handwavey explanation (blessedly tied to the already established world building in the form of Mayor Domino) for their continued success once inside rather than just "Thank God nobody raised the alarm despite the guards they took out at the entrance and on the elevator ride. Or those on the 59th floor, even if they did take the stairs. And thankfully that one guy watching the monitors was asleep on the job -- oh, wait, nevermind, these first couple of guards on the 60th floor don't care if they see you anyway; they just tell you to leave, but then don't make sure that you do. Or even attack you if you keep getting discovered by the other guards on this floor. And praise the goddess that this presumptive buffoon on the 61st floor thinks you're maintenance."
If you think that Domino choosing to help guys who were recognizably Avalanche despite not knowing the specifics of their mission is more of a stretch than all of that bullshit, then I can't help you. =|
Given what they are, though, that's taking issue with the fiction being fiction. =P
They didn't, though. Cloud and co. had to create their own route, because HQ's was a bust.
Well, there's no indication that he is. Domino clearly didn't call Rufus or even HQ and get instructions from them about what to do about Cloud's team.
I mean ...
I identified a pretty long list of things that were patently factually not factual.Now, what I think you need to ask yourself before digging your heels in on this question of achievement by the leads any further is what Cloud and co. set out to do, whether that was accomplished, and whether that would have been accomplished without their efforts. Because I'm confident
Aerith would not have been rescued had things been left to Domino, Hojo, Sephiroth, HQ, Rufus, nor anyone else.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
True. He does shut down the system so she can get out, though.
Of course it's more spectacular, we're looking at 2020 production values v 1997.
In the OG, they get one door opened for them and otherwise have to fend for themselves. Here, they need a lot of help from Whispers, HQ, and Hojo. There is a difference.
It could be improved. You can avoid most of those encounters you are talking about (and the fact that you have to take the least stealthy route possible for your argument is pretty telling) the only compulsory ones are the three on floor 59, which require much less handwaving. But if you think it's more plausible to leave a giant pile of corpses in the parking garage and then climb around on the light fixtures in the lobby of this giant skyscraper and that Domino can cover it up without anyone noticing, then we have an impasse.
In universe they keep fate on track, right?
Hmm. Depends. Did that explosion divert attention of security? And there's the Whispers again.
Sure. That was Lic's hypothetical, so I was acting as though it was true for the sake of argument. We don't know what contact was or wasn't made (Wedge obviously checked in with them, at least.)
I mean ...
Did you? This is what I said:
'All of them' is wrong because I forgot about the lobby one, but even then he shuts down security so Tifa can get out. The rest is still true, they didn't have help from Whispers, AVALANCHE HQ, or Hojo in the OG version. Domino gave them one keycard, and Sephiroth opened a door. They sneak in themselves with no one turning off alarms or upgrading their keycards for them. HQ got them in through Domino helping them get through the building, and then out again. Without all that help, they trip alarms at the front door and get nowhere.
So, you found one thing.
My chapter by chapter logs are right there if you think I'm just randomly making this up for the sake of this conversation. We can't argue our emotional responses, but I think it's pretty clear that
the crew requires a lot more external help to get through Shinra HQ this time around.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Can someone explain something to me?
Why did Hojo put them in the Drum in the first place and why did he decide it was time to let them out? Aside from the obvous reason that a chapter full of filler was needed to stretch out the action?
Why did Hojo put them in the Drum in the first place and why did he decide it was time to let them out? Aside from the obvous reason that a chapter full of filler was needed to stretch out the action?
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Hojo didn't put them in the Drum, Sephiroth knocked them down into it. He kept them there so he could run combat experiments with his experimental subjects, aka, for his own amusement. I can only assume he got bored of messing with them and wanted to see what would happen with Sephiroth, since he already knows who Cloud is.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
He didn't, Sephiroth cut the bridge and they fell. Hojo just said 'cool, new labrats' and rolled with it. Why he let them out I don't know, he might have wanted to let Cloud follow Sephiroth, but you'd expect him to want to keep Aerith.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
The bridge was inside the drum, though, wasn't it? I found the topography of the place confusing, but my impression is that Jenova was being held in a big test tube in the centre, surrounded by incubation pods, and the vast central area that held both theese things was in turn surrounded by a warren of corridors, holding pens, and big empty concrete rooms.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
I generally don't pay attention to these things but I can't help but notice me and Clem said the same thing basically and you only liked his post. I need my worthless internet points damn it.
Jenova's pod was the very top of the room, the Drum dungeon was below. One thing I've been wondering is, does "the drum" refer to that big cylindrical part of the Shinra building? That makes sense in my head but I'm not sure it actually works with the floor plan.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Sorry, Ody, it's because when I open up the thread I get taken straight to the most recent post and I often don't think to scroll back.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Don't worry, I was only kidding lol.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Not just in the flashy sense. They face greater and longer obstacles here as well (e.g. all that mandatory crap in The Drum).
Clement said:
HQ literally doesn't help them at all, and Hojo simply takes Seph's place in helping them here.
Clement said:
Unfair and you know it. I cited both paths, which include the encounter on the 59th floor, the guards who are looking right at you (yet do nothing no matter what) when you emerge on the 60th, and the idiot on the 61st floor.
Clement said:
I would phrase it as "in universe, they make sure things more or less go as they did last time," but either way, we're talking about anthropomorphized plot armor.
Clement said:
No? At best, it did nothing to hurt or help. Rufus and his guards were literally ... right there. Rufus immediately sends his guards after Aerith and the others, The Arsenal gets released on them as well, and Heidegger and a squad that momentarily successfully subdues them is waiting at the exit.
Clement said:
Whose most notable contribution, let's not forget, is to assist in an encounter that wasn't present in the original telling anyway. 
But I will give you that they help out twice during the motorcycle sequence, which obviously was in the original. I do genuinely share your annoyance about that.
Granted, they're helping out with dangers that weren't part of the original sequence, but still -- they fucked with the flow and weren't needed there. They'd already been used plenty for the purpose the new narrative needed to get the point of them across.
But I will give you that they help out twice during the motorcycle sequence, which obviously was in the original. I do genuinely share your annoyance about that.
Granted, they're helping out with dangers that weren't part of the original sequence, but still -- they fucked with the flow and weren't needed there. They'd already been used plenty for the purpose the new narrative needed to get the point of them across.
Clement said:
I mean, we know Domino thought they were there to take out the President, so he obviously hadn't yet spoken with HQ about them at that time.
Clement said:
But I didn't say "All of them," I said "a pretty long list."
Clement said:
Just repeating myself here, but they didn't have help from Avalanche HQ at all in this version either, and Hojo takes Seph's place from the original here, so ... other than the Whispers (new) in a new event, along with a couple of admittedly annoying assists during the bike sequence ... Domino just (for the most part) neatly absorbs the numerous implausible conveniences in the original's series of events.
Clement said:
And some random idiot gave them another keycard. And another guy fell asleep at the security camera desk. And a couple of guards don't report or attack. And other guards get killed in the middle of the wide open floor plan of the 59th floor without any issues arising.
Do we need to keep going?
Do we need to keep going?
Clement said:
That's like saying Avalanche got Aerith away from Reno and escorted her home because an associate of theirs (Cloud) did it.
And no, HQ did dick all to get them out. For that matter, Domino did dick all to get them out.
And no, HQ did dick all to get them out. For that matter, Domino did dick all to get them out.
Clement said:
Bro ...
Graven Lane
Lv. 1 Adventurer
There were a few little things that I would like to see changed gameplay wise:
* In the OG version there were more sorting options for items, materia, and equips. In Remake there isn't very many. I always liked the option of sorting by type or even a custom sort
* The Battle Intel menu was awesome, however navigating it was kind of annoying. It would have been nice to have a page up or page down option with R1 or R2 (or something similar) or maybe even some way to filter through it (alphabetically, or by elemental weakness, etc.)
* I think it would have been nice to see that when you selected your party leader, you actually got to see them running around on the screen (even if Cloud is in the party).
* Since Chadley is collecting all of your battle intel, it would have been awesome to be able to fight any previous enemy in the final combat simulator.
* In the OG version there were more sorting options for items, materia, and equips. In Remake there isn't very many. I always liked the option of sorting by type or even a custom sort
* The Battle Intel menu was awesome, however navigating it was kind of annoying. It would have been nice to have a page up or page down option with R1 or R2 (or something similar) or maybe even some way to filter through it (alphabetically, or by elemental weakness, etc.)
* I think it would have been nice to see that when you selected your party leader, you actually got to see them running around on the screen (even if Cloud is in the party).
* Since Chadley is collecting all of your battle intel, it would have been awesome to be able to fight any previous enemy in the final combat simulator.
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
Speaking of story content hopes, I very much hope that we eventually get a version of Chapter 17 that's as completed & polished as the rest of the game up to that point, because I really want the bits there to be as thoroughly detailed as everything else. I don't feel like that chapter's at all meant to be filler, but it does come in at a bit of an odd point pacing-wise, a little bit like the Train Graveyard can.
There're SO many interesting details there that I want to see more of, especially vis-a-vis all of the crazy Jenova-based experimentation.
X
Graven Lane
Lv. 1 Adventurer
Along those lines, I think it would be interesting to see if they incorporate more aspects of Before Crisis in the future installments. Fuhitos experimentation on the AVALANCHE foot soldiers was very intriguing and a cool story arc to counter the SOLDIER project. With Chadley collecting all of his battle intel and developing materia with the hope of destroying Shinra from the inside, this is kind of foreboding and can very well have him moving into more of an antagaonistic role similar to Fuhito. That's why I don't trust him, lol. I mean, he is collecting all of the party's battle intel; he knows how they fight and what they are capable of. Who's to say that this little Hojo minion can't develop a powerful materia that he would be able to use on himself to make him extremely powerful or develop a powerful materia to do catastrophic things like the Black Materia. He could very well be aware of Fuhito's experimentation and what he wanted to accomplish. This could mould him into an interesting antagonist in the future. Who knows, maybe he is working for AVALANCHE.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
How does Chadley develop materia? Does he process it inside himself? Where does it come out? Is he like a vending machine? We demand answers.
Keveh Kins
Pun Enthusiast
Chadley puking out an orb of Materia like David regurgitating an Alien embryo at the end of Covenant?
I actually would dig it. Horrifying yet farcical when it's a dorky kid in long socks doing it
I actually would dig it. Horrifying yet farcical when it's a dorky kid in long socks doing it
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Chadley puking out an orb of Materia like David regurgitating an Alien embryo at the end of Covenant?
I actually would dig it. Horrifying yet farcical when it's a dorky kid in long socks doing it
...I never knew how much I fucking wanted this.
Chadley is the David of FFVII. I am 100% okay with this.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Sorry, Ody, we posted at the same moment and I was too lazy to go back and edit.
[@TTM, I feel like our differences are issues of interpretation mostly, not so much a long list of factually counter factual stuff. I can PM you to elaborate if you want.
[@TTM, I feel like our differences are issues of interpretation mostly, not so much a long list of factually counter factual stuff. I can PM you to elaborate if you want.
I feel like there is a large qualitative difference between the gang being supported the whole way through the building and the few lucky breaks they get originally. Some of the original ones are dicey, but they could have fixed that instead of giving Domino absolute control of Shinra HQ to the point he can turn off all alarms during 'heavy' security and ensure that people you meet don't tell anyone about you, and that no one enters or leaves through the lobby or parking garage. I think it's fair to say that entails more help than the OG version.
You listed all of the optional stuff, including guard encounters you can avoid, but if we're doing that I get to add 'guy on phone' and lady at swordpoint who mysteriously doesn't tell anyone (and I also forgot to mention Kunsel's friend, by the way), to the list of contrivances. It's still heavily weighted towards the Remake. I was working from 'maximum stealth' route in both versions.
We can argue over who contacted whom, but ultimately we don't know who did what. (Wedge knew to get in touch with Domino somehow, and mysteriously appeared in his office, so something we don't know about happened offscreen )
This stood out to me so much because a good deal of other stuff in the game also involved things AVALANCHE originally achieved alone, like the bombings, now being part of Shinra's plans. If Rufus was running AVALANCHE ops in Shinra HQ, it seems very likely that he directed AVALANCHE towards his father's office in the hope they would kill him or allow Rufus an alibi for killing him (By the time I arrived, AVALANCHE had killed my Dad, how sad).If that's true it puts them on yet another person's strings.
You listed all of the optional stuff, including guard encounters you can avoid, but if we're doing that I get to add 'guy on phone' and lady at swordpoint who mysteriously doesn't tell anyone (and I also forgot to mention Kunsel's friend, by the way), to the list of contrivances. It's still heavily weighted towards the Remake. I was working from 'maximum stealth' route in both versions.
We can argue over who contacted whom, but ultimately we don't know who did what. (Wedge knew to get in touch with Domino somehow, and mysteriously appeared in his office, so something we don't know about happened offscreen )
This stood out to me so much because a good deal of other stuff in the game also involved things AVALANCHE originally achieved alone, like the bombings, now being part of Shinra's plans. If Rufus was running AVALANCHE ops in Shinra HQ, it seems very likely that he directed AVALANCHE towards his father's office in the hope they would kill him or allow Rufus an alibi for killing him (By the time I arrived, AVALANCHE had killed my Dad, how sad).If that's true it puts them on yet another person's strings.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
No, no, we secretly agree on everything, including "Star Wars."
It's okay, you can tell me I've been right all along whenever you're ready. 
Clement said:
I absolutely agree that there's a significant qualitative difference, but to a different result. I feel it makes the narrative tighter and plainly more sensible.
There's nothing wrong with some lucky breaks, of course, and I'd even say good stories need a few. In general, though, if our choice is between constant, incongruent lucky breaks and an abundance of calculated moves, I'd say the latter is more likely to serve a story better.
There's nothing wrong with some lucky breaks, of course, and I'd even say good stories need a few. In general, though, if our choice is between constant, incongruent lucky breaks and an abundance of calculated moves, I'd say the latter is more likely to serve a story better.
Clement said:
I was being thorough, listing the contents of both paths, as one of those two sequences of events happened -- yet both are still filled to the brim with a comparatively nonsensical degree of luck.
As for Dude On Phone, yes, feel free to include him. He's one of your missing lucky breaks. The lady who Cloud drew a sword on is less a lucky break, though, than another bit of Domino covering their tracks. He mentions her when they get to his office.
As for Dude On Phone, yes, feel free to include him. He's one of your missing lucky breaks. The lady who Cloud drew a sword on is less a lucky break, though, than another bit of Domino covering their tracks. He mentions her when they get to his office.
Clement said:
What's the problem with this guy? That he keeps the other trooper with him from causing any ruckus?
I think you're looking at this scene the wrong way. Its narrative purpose isn't "They get caught, but thankfully an old acquaintance of Cloud's is present to get them out of it." The purpose is to raise more questions about Cloud, and to get that sub-plot of his mental blocks back on track after it not getting brought up since early in Chapter 9.
And also to reference Kunsel from CC.
If not for these elements, Random Trooper Who Almost Took Them On wouldn't have even been there. Just call it another lucky break if you need to.
I think you're looking at this scene the wrong way. Its narrative purpose isn't "They get caught, but thankfully an old acquaintance of Cloud's is present to get them out of it." The purpose is to raise more questions about Cloud, and to get that sub-plot of his mental blocks back on track after it not getting brought up since early in Chapter 9.
And also to reference Kunsel from CC.
If not for these elements, Random Trooper Who Almost Took Them On wouldn't have even been there. Just call it another lucky break if you need to.
Clement said:
Does Domino have knowledge he would have if he had contacted HQ at that point? If not, then he has not yet contacted them.
Clement said:
Barret's cell didn't know about Domino, remember? The implication is that Wedge followed CTB to the building and got pulled aside by Domino.
Clement said:
There's a definite possibility there. Rufus calls Tseng to come get him like one scene before Cloud and team learn that HQ is attacking the building "to flush out" the Prez.
It only stands to reason that Domino went ahead and contacted HQ right after meeting with CTB. If Rufus is involved with them, he should have quickly been informed of the situation and seen its potential usefulness to him.
It only stands to reason that Domino went ahead and contacted HQ right after meeting with CTB. If Rufus is involved with them, he should have quickly been informed of the situation and seen its potential usefulness to him.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
As a result of another thread, I now want the 'young Hojo' character model to be the most beautiful thing Square has ever made.
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