Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[looneymoon]

I hope happy turtle owner comes back :')

 

[Makoeyes987]

Just some predictions for the Remake I was thinking about for the future. I want to be able to point these if they end up coming true.

Given the plot moving away from Midgar now, other Compilation elements not centralized to Midgar will now have to be utilized.

Spoiler: 7 predictions on the use of Compilation elements

1.) Cissnei will show up, probably around Gongaga. She will show up either as a bounty hunter/investigator tracking Cloud and the others for the Turks or she'll happen upon them while investigating who they are. She will recognize Cloud but won't say anything much out of not wanting to upset Zack's parents and/or confused about what Cloud is doing.

2.) The Before Crisis Turks will either show up in their established home towns as important NPCs for quests to give you their weapons or they'll be optional bosses. I imagine there might be recognition but maybe not.

3.) Zirconiade will be an optional superboss and maybe even a summon, located in either the area around the Temple of the Ancients or the Forgotten City, but I'm far more certain it's the Temple of the Ancients. The ziggurat shape of its materia makes me think it'll show up in a weakened form there as a boss to fight and maybe a summon to obtain. Depends on how much they decide to nerf it.

4.) The Restrictors, as SOLDIER's 14th Unit Lost Force, will be dispatched by Scarlet to help thwart and capture Cloud and the others or during the Huge Materia quest. They'll show up and be superbosses. They will either show up in Nibelheim as an ambush or somewhere with the Huge Materia.

5.) Rosso and Azul will be superbosses during the return to Midgar. In particular, Cloud and Rosso will share a moment and she will remember him, to tie into why she zeroes in on Cloud in Dirge of Cerberus.

6.) Genesis will be a superboss near the tail end of the Remake, with the return to Midgar. More than likely a Combat Simulator fight.

7.) Banora will be visited as an optional dungeon like the Deepsea Research Facility or the Omega Ruins. Minerva will be a superboss here and/or summon. Cloud will freak out somewhat here due to familiarity.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'd bet money on Banora being in there somewhere, but I don't know about Rosso and Azul ... Not unless we want the continuity kerfuffle @Clement Rage insists upon for Dirge really becoming a thing.

I mean, Rosso mentions that she had never felt rain before the night Vincent met her, nor even seen the sky until a few days prior. It rained on Midgar the night of Shin-Ra's collapse, so that likely rules out a confrontation topside, and despite the team using an underground route (well, underplate route) to get to the mako cannon, it needs to be an underground route Reeve is familiar with. He decidedly is in the dark on Deepground or anywhere they're likely to show.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'd bet money on Banora being in there somewhere, but I don't know about Rosso and Azul ... Not unless we want the continuity kerfuffle @Clement Rage insists upon for Dirge really becoming a thing.

I mean, Rosso mentions that she had never felt rain before the night Vincent met her, nor even seen the sky until a few days prior. It rained on Midgar the night of Shin-Ra's collapse, so that likely rules out a confrontation topside, and despite the team using an underground route (well, underplate route) to get to the mako cannon, it needs to be an underground route Reeve is familiar with. He decidedly is in the dark on Deepground or anywhere they're likely to show.

I predict the entire scenario for the return for Midgar will get thoroughly revamped and expanded. I get what you're talking about. However, I imagine that Cloud and the others will have a much longer time getting to Sector 0, and will have to go through several winding tunnels to get through Sector 0, reach the Shinra Building and all of that will just so happen to cut through another "Shinra Research Lab" through Sector 0.

And let's just say while going through, two Tsviets are waiting for them. And upon defeat, they get trapped and unable to follow, and I just imagine Rosso clenching her fist in rage as she remembers the blond guy as being the one who thwarted her getting to see outside

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If Deepground were to be revealed during the course of the Remake, rendering DoC non-canonical, would that be a tragedy?

 

[Shademp]

If Deepground were to be revealed during the course of the Remake, rendering DoC non-canonical, would that be a tragedy?

Nope

 

[Odysseus]

Your general distaste for a game you've spent countless hours on perplexes me a bit.

 

[Shademp]

I maintain the position (and my apologies for being a broken record) that I think FF7 lore has more to gain by initiating a new timeline. Not just because I think it would provide actual meaning to FF7R's crazy direction but because the old post-OG stuff is a mixed bag of content anyway. A soft reboot that leaves behind OtWtaS, The Kids Are Alright, AC and DoC to the original timeline would be refreshing in my opinion. I've had a ton of enjoyment with AC and DoC in particular but I think FF7R has the potential to set up something better.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I think if that were the case, it would only apply to the remake as I don’t think DoC not occurring in the remake retroactively makes it non-canon to the OG…plus we’d probably still get DoC content, just reinterpreted to fit the remake’s new story

 

[Makoeyes987]

They're not going to make Dirge or any title non-canon. That's just not going to happen and they've repeated over and over how they want to use the Remake to incorporate the Compilation elements into the Remake story, not undo them. It's why they keep doing it and foreshadowing to certain plots in the future. It's not to "undo" or erase these titles. They're lovingly embracing them. Everything they do with the Remake has entrenched the Compilation deeper into it's bones, people still really think they're going to pull a Disney with this?

Having Cloud and the others encounter Azul and Rosso in their infiltration of Midgar to reach Shinra and the Sister Ray would be no different than what they did with Yuffie having her fun run in with Nero lol

 

[KindOfBlue]

They're not going to make it non-canon. That's just not going to happen and they've repeated how they want to use the Remake to incorporate the Compilation elements into the Remake, not undo it.

Having Cloud and the others encounter Azul and Rosso in their infiltration of Midgar to reach Shinra and the Sister Ray would be no different than what they did with Yuffie having her fun run in with Nero lol

They definitely won’t decanonize it to the OG but if we wanna get technical though, they haven’t guaranteed that the events of AC and DoC would still occur in the remake’s continuity, only the events of the OG story itself…I mean really, incorporating Compilation elements could just as easily be a way to tell a new story with them (an unknown journey perhaps?) as it could be a way to lead into the familiar stuff

 

[Shademp]

They're not going to make Dirge or any title non-canon.

And we shall continue to disagree about the absoluteness of this statement for many years to come. Through FF7R Square has demonstrated the audacity that they will do whatever they please. So at this stage anything could happen. Remake might loop back around to the old post-OG content in the end or it might diverge into a new timeline (though the new timeline will probably still be a consequence of the timeline where AC, DoC etc occurred). Anything is possible at this stage and none of the developer interviews/statements have convinced me of either direction being certain.

 

[Makoeyes987]

They definitely won’t decanonize it to the OG but if we wanna get technical though, they haven’t guaranteed that the events of AC and DoC would still occur in the remake’s continuity, only the events of the OG story itself…I mean really, incorporating Compilation elements could just as easily be a way to tell a new story with them (an unknown journey perhaps?) as it could be a way to lead into the familiar stuff

But they have.

You have the set up for the Kids Are Alright with Lesley's missing fiance, the commemorative photos taken by Corneo (a key plot element right there), and Kyrie being a little brat and knowing Aerith.

You have Aerith having a close relationship with orphans in the slums and healing them.

You have Hojo already taking an interest in digitizing his consciousness and taking over Weiss's body.

You have Before Crisis just being lovingly embraced over and over. Hell, Tifa's cat is back along with Turks being at Nibelheim.

All of this set up leads to each respective Compilation story. Each writer, from Toriyama to Nomura to Kitase keep repeating that they're using the Remake to set up and meaningfully connect to the Compilation where it's appropriate. And they say that the fundamental story of the Remake is FFVII, so yes. It's going to connect. Eventually when this is over, they're going to move on. They're not going to make another continuity to just do FFVII all over again. They're gonna eventually move on to FFX next.

 

[KindOfBlue]

But they have.

You have the set up for the Kids Are Alright with Lesley's missing fiance, the commemorative photos taken by Corneo (a key plot element right there), and Kyrie being a little brat and knowing Aerith.

You have Aerith having a close relationship with orphans in the slums and healing them.

You have Hojo already taking an interest in digitizing his consciousness and taking over Weiss's body.

You have Before Crisis just being lovingly embraced over and over. Hell, Tifa's cat is back along with Turks being at Nibelheim.

All of this set up leads to each respective Compilation story. Each writer, from Toriyama to Nomura to Kitase keep repeating that they're using the Remake to set up and meaningfully connect to the Compilation where it's appropriate. And they say that the fundamental story of the Remake is FFVII, so yes. It's going to connect. Eventually when this is over, they're going to move on. They're not going to make another continuity to just do FFVII all over again. They're gonna eventually move on to FFX next.

You’re right about the connection, but the nature of that connection is still unclear. I’m not saying AC and DoC are gonna be completely irrelevant, far from it, but I don’t see repurposing those plot points instead of straight-repeating them as any less of a connection to the Compilation in the slightest. I mean, what they’ve done with CC and potentially AC in the ending already should be an indicator of that possibility.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If the connection foreshadows and sets up the plots of those titles, coupled with the writers saying their intent is to connect the Remake to those previously completed stories, why would it mean they're trying to erase those stories and de-canon them? And I consider that essentially de-canoning them because as they said, the Remake is still the FFVII story, so they're at least portraying the Remake as occupying the same narrative space as the OG at least in regards to continuity.

They're not even being repurposed at all. Hojo isn't "repurposing" his intention of possessing Weiss, he's just matching up exactly with what he wanted in DC. Like, that's literally 100% Dirge of Cerberus foreshadowing. The novella characters are all set up for the AC era book in the Remake. So I guess I'm just wondering what's the "repurpose?" The writers certainly aren't doing that. They're referring to these connections reaching back to their previous work now.

 

[KindOfBlue]

If the connection foreshadows and sets up the plots of those titles, coupled with the writers saying their intent is to connect the Remake to those stories, why would it mean they're trying to erase those stories and de-canon them?

They're not being repurposed at all. Hojo isn't "repurposing" his intention of possessing Weiss, he's matching up exactly with what he wanted in DC. Like, that's literally 100% Dirge of Cerberus foreshadowing.

The problem with that question is that it suggests that making AC and DoC not follow the remake would “erase and decanonize” them. Nothing is going to change the fact that they are the canon follow ups to the OG, but the remake’s future isn’t totally set in stone (they made a whole ending just to tell us this lol).

You can have all the foreshadowing and callbacks and fanservice in the world and still not repeat the old plots with stuff like geostigma, the three Sephiroth clones, the Deepground conflict etc. while still holding on to post-OG elements like stuff we’ve seen in the novellas. It’s really not that hard, and I’d argue it makes for a more conclusive end to the Compilation.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The fact they're looping the Remake to the Compilation that already exists, is how the FFVII project meets it's end. Do you think they're going to like, redo a new Compilation? Like, Remake Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus? I find that very unlikely. Maybe they'll revisit them in game form or something but I don't see them actually going through the creative effort of remaking the entire Compilation just to make it continue off the Remake FFVII and then we have a Remake of the Compilation to match the Remake of FFVII. The writers would be burned out as hell and ready to rest.

They're certainly not undoing their stories or making new stories for the post FFVII years, to replace the stories they already have. Why would they even do that, they're not motivated to undo their own work. And I'd bet you money on that. And the fact the writers keep calling back (not fanservice, literal in narrative meaningful call backs) and keep referencing the overall narrative, shows that it holds significance. Again, they're not going Disney and wiping the EU just to "start fresh." That's not even their style.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Do you think they're going to like, loop the Compilation then? Like, Remake AC and Dirge of Cerberus? I just... find that very unlikely. Maybe they'll revisit them in game form or something but I don't see them actually going through the creative effort of remaking the entire Compilation just to make it continue off the Remake FFVII and then we have a Remake of the Compilation to match the Remake of FFVII. The writers would be burned out as hell and ready to rest.

They're certainly not undoing it. I'd bet you money on that. And the fact the writers keep calling back (not fanservice, literal in narrative meaningful call backs) and keep referencing the overall narrative, shows that it holds significance. Again, they're not going Disney and wiping the EU just to "start fresh." That's not even their style.

Quite the opposite really, I think a loop would be more likely if they for sure wanted the events of AC and DoC to absolutely still follow the remake because now they have to ensure that whatever happens, it has to fit with established continuity. On the other hand though, if they’re not so committed to making sure AC and DoC follow the remake’s version of the OG, it gives them free reign to do practically anything they want with those plot points. I would hope that level of creative freedom might be a good thing for them?

Now I definitely don’t expect them to totally remake AC and DoC, you’re right about them being burnt out. All they’d have to do is take as many AC and DoC plot elements as they can fit into the remake, resolve them within the remake’s timeframe, and let the ending of the remake be THE end of the compilation. No more conflicts to set up, just complete closure. They definitely don’t have to start fresh to do this, it’s really just a way of making sure the end of the remake is THE absolute end of FF7.

EDIT: they’ll still find ways to milk this but I mean the end of the main story lol

 

[Makoeyes987]

They've already done it. Why would they do it again just for the Remake? Yeah, it's freedom but who says its a freedom they're even looking for? They don't speak of their past work as anything they wish to redo whatsoever.

And in the end, that's still "remaking" those titles. What you're saying is a reboot/remake of the Compilation. Why would they pick and choose what to keep and then just do it all over anyways? Either they'd do it over completely and revisit making a new post FFVII story or they'd not because it's been done before. If the Remake is functionally FFVII, then the stories post FFVII would be the same for the Remake. So what would be the point in rebuilding that?

 

[KindOfBlue]

They've already did it. Why would they do it again just for the Remake? Yeah, it's freedom but who says its a freedom they're even looking for? They don't speak of their past work as anything they wish to redo whatsoever.

And in the end, that's still "remaking" those titles. Why would they just pick and choose what to keep and then just do it all over anyways? Either they'd do it over completely and revisit making a new post FFVII story or they'd not because it's been done before. Of the Remake is FFVII, then the stories post FFVII would be the same for the Remake. So what would be the point in rebuilding that?

They didn’t do it because we’re still here lol I don’t remember how far back the remake was planned but it’s been in the air long before it was announced wasn’t it?

But as far as freedom goes, I don’t know how else they can justify an “unknown journey” if everything is going to be exactly the same, something’s gotta be different right? That’s why when they talk about still following the OG, I don’t see anything in there about AC and DoC being set in stone. Not that they absolutely won’t still lead to that, but my point is they aren’t guaranteed to.

It isn’t a undoing of AC and DoC in the slightest, those titles still exist and are still relevant to the established continuity. All I’m proposing would be an earlier resolution to those plot elements so that those conflicts don’t still have to follow the remake’s ending. We’re on the same page here in terms of those elements being incorporated in the remake, where we differ is what that means for the future.

We don’t actually need a post-FFVII story for that to work either, an epilogue in the game would be nice but the point here is to end Sephiroth. Like, END end him. Unless I’m missing something, I don’t recall Sephiroth being totally eradicated, isn’t Cloud’s memory of him what keeps him alive?

Either way, it wouldn’t be a reboot or remake of the compilation, just a roundabout way to tie up everything within the remake. The remake’s continuity may follow the OG’s, but it’s still free to take liberties within its own continuity. How they use that freedom remains to be seen.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Remake isn't going to be exactly the same. Intermission showed us that. So they have plenty of room to add new events and experiences to differentiate this iteration of FFVII from the original.

But they've said and demonstrated several times how this Remake occupies the same narrative and continuity space as the OG. They've only demonstrated pride and satisfaction with what they've crafted in the stories that took place after. Why would they feel the need to do it again? There's no gaping hole or want for a remix of the Compilation. I know you say it's not de-canoning them but it is. It's a soft reboot. They'd be retreading ground. They'd have to sit back down and create a new post FFVII story when AC is still there and they'd have to rethink how to rewrite a story that's different from it. They're not doing that lol.

Sephiroth was dead post-AC until the writers decided to do this. So they can easily reloop it and contextualize the Remake as the final end while leading to AC which provides the lead up to Sephiroth in the Remake. If that's their choice.

They literally did this in Kingdom Hearts so I don't see how this would be difficult to accomplish here. And they certainly didn't remake KH or it's games either.

 

[Eerie]

Reading all this convo made me think that Sephiroth from chapter 18, the one from the future, is going to die. He'll have no choice and will have to accept it. It will be part of his redemption, so to speak, but since it's a Sephiroth from the far future, they can do that.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think there's a meta reading in the fact that the Sephiroth from Chapter 18 is one who wishes the world of FFVII to never die and he treasures all the conflicts and struggling with Cloud, to the point he'd be willing to team up with his most hated foe, just so he can perpetuate that immortality.

Sephiroth doesn't want FFVII to ever end. He doesn't want to let go. And he wants this dance to go on into perpetuity if it means continued existence.

I don't think that's an accident.

 

[Eerie]

In short, Sephiroth is a representation of us, the fans, who have bugged the devs endlessly for FFVII lol.

 

[KindOfBlue]

But they've said and demonstrated several times how this Remake occupies the same narrative and continuity space as the OG.

We gotta be clear on the difference between narrative and continuity here. The remake and OG share the same narrative, but not the exact same continuity. We can presume much of the backstory to be the same, but Zack didn’t survive in the OG, the Whispers didn’t exist, Cloud didn’t go to Jessie’s house, the Honeybee Inn wasn’t a club where Cloud danced his heart out, Wedge didn’t survive the platefall only to then be thrown from Shinra HQ, Sephiroth didn’t stab Barret, and Cloud and the gang didn’t fight Sephiroth after killing fate on the Midgar Expressway. We can only chalk up so many differences to just being “expansions” of the OG here.

There's no gaping hole or want for a remix of the Compilation. I know you say it's not de-canoning them but it is. It's a soft reboot.

But how would it be decanonized in a continuity where it never happened in the first place? The OG would still remain untouched, it’s not like AC and DoC would retroactively disappear just because they don’t follow the remake

They've only demonstrated pride and satisfaction with what they've crafted in the stories that took place after. Why would they feel the need to do it again?

They don’t have to do it again, they’re already going to tell new stories with Compilation elements, are they not? It’s the same idea, only with more room to resolve without being so strictly tied to specific directions

They'd have to sit back down and create a new post FFVII story when AC is still there and they'd have to rethink how to rewrite a story that's different from it. They're not doing that lol.

For one, I’m pretty sure even if they still led to AC and DoC, they’d give us some insight into what Cloud’s life was like post-crisis. But if they don’t lead to those titles, they can still use all of the same elements that were already established, Cloud and Tifa adopt Denzel, Cloud becomes a deliveryman etc.

More to my point though, they really don’t have to do much. They could write a short story, or have an epilogue sequence in-game, or even just say in an interview “yeah, Cloud and Tifa had many babies and died of old age” or something and leave it at that, it’s really up to them lol.