Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[The Twilight Mexican]

It has been a fun discussion, and I thank you for it.

I do still disagree about what Kitase and his team felt they were able to achieve with FFVII, though. In an interview from the FFVIII Ultimania, the game's main programmer said they "had to spend a lot more time on computer management for character use" in order to achieve the realistically proportioned characters with VIII, and that he had to rewrite the program he'd written for VII to increase processing speeds.

Kitase also added that it was "a tall order" for the programmers to get those head-body ratios and apply textures to the characters' field models, as well as that he feels FFVIII was "a step closer" to achieving his vision of players experiencing "all the elements, from the intro to the ending, as a single cohesive work" rather than "as a collection of various videogame-y things strung together digitally, like, 'this is a world map scene', 'there's a battle scene', 'oh, here comes a mini-game', and so on."

Perhaps you still won't feel that these guys are admitting to coming up short of what Kitase wanted with FFVII due to technical limitations, but it strikes me as evident that Nomura only did chibi character designs there because the development team felt it was going to be the best they could achieve with the field model graphics at that time.

Anyway, good luck with your projects. I've got a lot going on right now myself.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Well, we are talking about Final Fantasy here, where things are, you know, mostly fantasy. So anything is kinda possible in the FFVII world, even in the Compiliation.

I think we'll just have to wait until most likely the end of this year for more on what they're actually gonna do to the storyline and how it effects the original and the Compilation.

Even though waiting is one of the biggest killers. I hope they'll make Scarlet butt ugly, considering how she's extremely cruel. Heh, Heidegger and Hojo are ugly enough as it is, lol.

 

[Starling]

There are unfortunate implications to having all the bad people be ugly, as if being ugly/pretty has anything to do with someone's morals. Let Scarlet be a good looking but dangerous individual like she's supposed to be. That doesn't need to change.

 

[jazzflower92]

I was thinking that maybe in the remake they should make it so that Aerith and Sephiroth did interact with each other while Aerith and her mother were in Shinra's captivity. I mean since Aerith would have been there until she was seven years old, it would make sense that Aerith as a child would have ran into Sephiroth while he was growing up under Shinra. I also think they should make it subtly clear that Sephiroth and Aerith are sort of in a way both prisoners of Shinra.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

They could do that, and it could be interesting, but if they do, it would have to be done in such a way that Sephiroth doesn't actually realize Aerith is a prisoner.

 

[jazzflower92]

They could do that, and it could be interesting, but if they do, it would have to be done in such a way that Sephiroth doesn't actually realize Aerith is a prisoner.

Yeah, and I was thinking by then Sephiroth would have been separated from Aerith and her mother due to being sent off to fight in the Wutai War. I think it be emphasized as well that Shinra was aiming to use Aerith and Sephiroth as tools in their goals. While Aerith managed to escape, Sephiroth had no one who could help him escape from being treated as a glorified living weapon. Not to mention his interactions with Aerith's mother would also show his longing for a mother figure.

 

[Ite]

They could do that, and it could be interesting, but if they do, it would have to be done in such a way that Sephiroth doesn't actually realize Aerith is a prisoner.

Yeah, and I was thinking by then Sephiroth would have been separated from Aerith and her mother due to being sent off to fight in the Wutai War.

I'm not sure. Sephiroth is supposed to be 30 or so in the OG, and Aeris is 22. If she was brought to HQ as an infant, he would have been eight or so. Although, around that time, Hojo would have both the false Ancient (Jenova) the real ancient (Ifalna) and their offspring (male and female) so he was probably the happiest person alive.

 

[Tennyo]

Yes yes yes!

So much of my personal head-canon coming true in this thread. <3

I've always imagined that Ifalna and Aerith at least met Sephiroth back in the day. I also imagined that Sephiroth played a part in their escape, whether knowingly or unknowingly.

I mean, Sephiroth knew Gast, right? What's to keep him from having met Ifalna and a baby/child Aerith?

 

[jazzflower92]

Yeah, I also want there to be more information about Sephiroth's time durng the Wutai War and when he started. For some reason, I could see him being sent into war at the precious age of 13 which in my opinion would have some effects on him.

In my opinion ever since he was young, Sephiroth was trained to be a weapon of Shinra whether it was at first to find the "Promised Land" then later a super soldier. This would cause someone to bottle up their emotions, and feel isolated due to being a celebrity and not really able to connect with other people.

I also think Jenova should be more emphasized as an antagonist, and no I don't think she should be the one in charge but the fact that she should be equal to Sephiroth and helping him as a guiding figure. I am even thinking that Jenova's connection with Sephiroth would cause her to wake up from her coma and go on the prowl again. I also think it should be emphasized that she is very much sentient and is intelligent.

 

[Ite]

I also think Jenova should be more emphasized as an antagonist, and no I don't think she should be the one in charge but the fact that she should be equal to Sephiroth and helping him as a guiding figure. I am even thinking that Jenova's connection with Sephiroth would cause her to wake up from her coma and go on the prowl again. I also think it should be emphasized that she is very much sentient and is intelligent.

You don't think the OG is pro-Jenova enough? I mean, whackjob Jenova-is-in-control theorists like myself have more than enough to go by without adding anything else. (I'll welcome more if you're offering )

 

[Channy]

They could do that, and it could be interesting, but if they do, it would have to be done in such a way that Sephiroth doesn't actually realize Aerith is a prisoner.

Yeah, and I was thinking by then Sephiroth would have been separated from Aerith and her mother due to being sent off to fight in the Wutai War.

I'm not sure. Sephiroth is supposed to be 30 or so in the OG, and Aeris is 22. If she was brought to HQ as an infant, he would have been eight or so. Although, around that time, Hojo would have both the false Ancient (Jenova) the real ancient (Ifalna) and their offspring (male and female) so he was probably the happiest person alive.

I imagine at one point, he probably was. I mean, who knows, maybe that's a leading point in why Hojo had Gast offed earlier on. He already had Sephiroth for years by the time Aerith came along, but he needed the perfect mate for him. So he wanted to ensure he could control both sides of that, and only resorted to other experiments (Red XIII) in attempts to mate, after he'd completely lost Sephiroth.

btw their babies would be gor-geeous.

I also think Jenova should be more emphasized as an antagonist, and no I don't think she should be the one in charge but the fact that she should be equal to Sephiroth and helping him as a guiding figure. I am even thinking that Jenova's connection with Sephiroth would cause her to wake up from her coma and go on the prowl again. I also think it should be emphasized that she is very much sentient and is intelligent.

You don't think the OG is pro-Jenova enough? I mean, whackjob Jenova-is-in-control theorists like myself have more than enough to go by without adding anything else. (I'll welcome more if you're offering )

I also think it could have done with a little more. Jenova does come across as menacing and very alien (pun intended) but then loses her luster when you find out it's Sephiroth pulling all those strings. A little disappointing, imo.

 

[Starling]

Rewriting things to have Sephiroth meet Aerith and Ifalna in a way that makes sense with how he ends up is one thing. Making Jenova the main showrunner instead of Sephiroth would undermine the threat he poses as an individual and pose the question of why it took so long to do anything if it was conscious all along. It's best that they don't do that.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I do expect to see them emphasize Jenova's consciousness more this go around with how much the source books cite her involvement. They treat her as a partner to Sephiroth rather than a puppet.

As for being conscious all along, one of the source books (I can check if you'd like me to verify which) said she awoke because of Sephiroth. So, assuming they stick to that, she'd be inert at least until the Nibelheim Incident.

 

[Tennyo]

^This is what I think. I mean, he fell into the Lifestream with her head. Perhaps that was enough to awake her.

 

[jazzflower92]

I hope they can make her an equal antagonist with her son, and even maybe give her a lot lines more than the original. Also I believe they should make Sephiroth's motives more clearer than they were in the original after he comes back from the Lifestream. If Jenova's going to be his equal, then I have a feeling after she has reawakened she would give her son all the knowledge that he needs. It should be more emphasized that Jenova and Sephiroth have a symbiotic relationship that depends on one another. I also can see Jenova personally having more involvement in Sephiroth's plot and being a bigger boss than she was in the original game.

Also they should keep Sephiroth as the silent villain, but Jenova would be doing most of the taunting and would be more talkative than her son.

 

[hian]

While I don't see any issue about expanding on Jenova's nature, I think there are issues with trying to play Jenova off as being in control, or as an equal party to Sephiroth in terms of the original.
After all, Jenova dying has no impact on Sephiroth's plans or anything else for that matter either.
You descend into North Crater, kill Jenova, only to find Sephiroth going on about his business as usually, his mad plan still in perfect motion, and he does not even make a single mention of you having defeated Jenova, or display any problems what so ever with having lost what some of you here would supposedly have be an equal partner to him in a symbiotic relationship.

Now, as I've said before - they're going to be changing things around, and I'm not expecting them to stay true to the original if they have other ideas for the plot that they deem to work better.
But at least in terms of the original, that characterization just doesn't work very well, when Jenova is doing Sephiroth's bidding through most of the game, yet end up dying before she could ever get to reap the benefits of that, and Sephiroth just carrying on anyways without as much as a sigh.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

To be fair, though, Sephiroth is uncharacteristically quiet altogether during that final encounter.

Also they should keep Sephiroth as the silent villain, but Jenova would be doing most of the taunting and would be more talkative than her son.

Ech, please no. Jenova's more interesting as the creature whose thought processes aren't quite on the same level as that of humans, with Seph being the extension (evolution?) of her in human form with human thoughts and preoccupations (e.g. revenge on Cloud).

Besides, until Disc 3, Seph is anything but silent.

 

[Octo]

I don't like the idea of depicting Sephiroth as a prisoner and all that shit, cos like. Do we really need/want to sympathise with Sephiroth? He's done just fine up to now without being depicted (in canon) as some sort of poor little abused puppy.

I mean fans are free to imagine whatever horrible upbringing they like for him (personally I think he probably had a priviliged if odd childhood.)

But yeah, in the OG Sephiroth was upset for all of 5 seconds when he discovered how he was created and then he was like 'lol I can take over the world!!!1!1' So I think it would be quite a character change - making him more like Genesis or something.

 

[jazzflower92]

I don't like the idea of depicting Sephiroth as a prisoner and all that shit, cos like. Do we really need/want to sympathise with Sephiroth? He's done just fine up to now without being depicted (in canon) as some sort of poor little abused puppy.

I mean fans are free to imagine whatever horrible upbringing they like for him (personally I think he probably had a priviliged if odd childhood.)

But yeah, in the OG Sephiroth was upset for all of 5 seconds when he discovered how he was created and then he was like 'lol I can take over the world!!!1!1' So I think it would be quite a character change - making him more like Genesis or something.

You know you can give a villain a sympathetic backstory, but still want to beat them in the end in order to prevent them from destroying the world. Not to mention the characters don't go out of their way to redeem Sephiroth, because he's way beyond redemption at this point. What I think Sephiroth should be treated is as a tragedy that could have been prevented if people didn't treat him as a tool for science or war. In the end, Sephiroth should be treated as a mad dog that needs to be put down for the sake of everyone.

The reason why I don't think we should treat as simply some one dimensional villain is because when you look at the background on this guy, it's a downright messed up situation from the start.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It is a messed up situation. I'll agree with that. He never seemed bothered by it, though, until he thought he was superior to everyone else by heritage. He even admits that he was always proud of being stronger than everyone around him -- it was just the whole idea of unworthy "traitors" inheriting the planet from his kind that set him off.

He wasn't two-dimensional, but he wasn't quite at the depth of a Seymour, Kuja or even an Ultimecia either. Frankly, it strikes me that he was just never a very good person. The one time he thought for himself for more than five minutes, he murdered a town full of innocent people and decided he deserved to lord over a planet -- all without any hesitation or remorse we're ever made aware of.

That's not to say it's without a tinge of tragedy. It's been hinted that Hojo arranged for Sephiroth to be assigned to that mission to find out what would happen if he got close to Jenova -- so, it's entirely probable that he simply inherited Jenova's instincts and getting close to her brought them to the forefront. His tragedy is that he was very likely doomed from the start. It makes his story kind of deep, raising questions of nature versus nurture, but he's still not all that deep on his own, and Rufus Shinra makes for a more interesting case study on that topic anyway.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Well, Sephiroth even says he absorbed all the knowledge of the Cetra from the Lifestream and figured out that Jenova wasn't a Cetra and he still goes bad. If he was going to decide that he was mistaken about the whole thing, it would have been then. But then there'd be no single villain to take down, just a corrupt organization.

 

[Flare]

making him more like Genesis or something.

 

[jazzflower92]

It is a messed up situation. I'll agree with that. He never seemed bothered by it, though, until he thought he was superior to everyone else by heritage. He even admits that he was always proud of being stronger than everyone around him -- it was just the whole idea of unworthy "traitors" inheriting the planet from his kind that set him off.

He wasn't two-dimensional, but he wasn't quite at the depth of a Seymour, Kuja or even an Ultimecia either. Frankly, it strikes me that he was just never a very good person. The one time he thought for himself for more than five minutes, he murdered a town full of innocent people and decided he deserved to lord over a planet -- all without any hesitation or remorse we're ever made aware of.

That's not to say it's without a tinge of tragedy. It's been hinted that Hojo arranged for Sephiroth to be assigned to that mission to find out what would happen if he got close to Jenova -- so, it's entirely probable that he simply inherited Jenova's instincts and getting close to her brought them to the forefront. His tragedy is that he was very likely doomed from the start. It makes his story kind of deep, raising questions of nature versus nurture, but he's still not all that deep on his own, and Rufus Shinra makes for a more interesting case study on that topic anyway.

The Compilation shows him to actually to have been a cold, but kind hearted person at heart to the point he connected with a few friends. I think the reason why he was never bothered by it is probably because that is what he's grown up with and doesn't know anything else. When a child is raised in a messed up situation they come to accept things the way they are and don't see anything unusual about it.

I think it would be more powerful that Sephiroth started out as a good person despite being raised by a corrupt organization, and then descended into darkness.

 

[ForceStealer]

I dunno, some people are just kind of lousy people. That doesn't make them EVIL, or mean they won't have friends. But I could see how the transition to evil would be slightly easier for him given that he's basically always felt better than everyone else.

I agree with the above that that Sephiroth's backstory is definitely tragic (even Cloud, who hates him more than anyone, observes Hojo's "illusory crime against Sephiroth"), but that doesn't make him sympathetic by itself, and I don't really like the idea of making Jenova the ONLY villain, with Sephiroth being an unwilling vessel.

Heck I never liked that theory even when we didn't have firmer evidence to the contrary. It made it less personal. I think the line between Jenova and Sephiroth has blurred and that anything influence Jenova might have on him is subconscious.
Such as byt Advent Children, Sephiroth's plan is basically to become the next Jenova: Crash the planet into another and live parasitically off that world. But is he doing that because Jenova told him to? Or just because the mingling of their cells since birth gives him similar inclinations? I personally think it's the latter.

Also, to the people in-universe, the narrative truly is the hero that fell from grace. And Cloud idolized him and so had a similar impression, but Tifa didn't like him from the moment she met him - finding him cold.

 

[jazzflower92]

I dunno, some people are just kind of lousy people. That doesn't make them EVIL, or mean they won't have friends. But I could see how the transition to evil would be slightly easier for him given that he's basically always felt better than everyone else.

I agree with the above that that Sephiroth's backstory is definitely tragic (even Cloud, who hates him more than anyone, observes Hojo's "illusory crime against Sephiroth"), but that doesn't make him sympathetic by itself, and I don't really like the idea of making Jenova the ONLY villain, with Sephiroth being an unwilling vessel.

Heck I never liked that theory even when we didn't have firmer evidence to the contrary. It made it less personal. I think the line between Jenova and Sephiroth has blurred and that anything influence Jenova might have on him is subconscious.
Such as byt Advent Children, Sephiroth's plan is basically to become the next Jenova: Crash the planet into another and live parasitically off that world. But is he doing that because Jenova told him to? Or just because the mingling of their cells since birth gives him similar inclinations? I personally think it's the latter.

Also, to the people in-universe, the narrative truly is the hero that fell from grace. And Cloud idolized him and so had a similar impression, but Tifa didn't like him from the moment she met him - finding him cold.

I am not saying Jenova has to be the mastermind, but that they are equals. It would be both Jenova and Sephiroth are working together to bring down earth. I don't think Sephiroth should be a vessel, but his "mother" should be more involved as an equal to him.

Also isn't the interpretation he was a lousy person also a fandom thing some have embraced. I really don't think his pre-fall persona was meant to be seen as a lousy person. Not to mention the fact that feeling he always felt better doesn't mean he was a lousy person from the start. More like he was raised with a mindset (probably by Hojo and Shinra) that he was the best at everything, and was expected to excel at their high expectation.