How do you view Cloud's Character?

[Max Payne]

It matters because the same people are writing it. So if they get it that Cloud's badassery is what's cool in KH, maybe they'll get it in the series proper.

No, it doesn't matter in the least. It's not Cloud, it's a character in KH who is completely irrelevant to the real thing.

Same people on not, they can do whatever the fuck they want in KH.

 

[ForceStealer]

But as they've made abundantly clear, they're going to do what they think is "cool." Whatever they think is cool about Cloud in KH they are likely going to feel is cool about him in FF7.

 

[Max Payne]

But as they've made abundantly clear, they're going to do what they think is "cool." Whatever they think is cool about Cloud in KH they are likely going to feel is cool about him in FF7.

what.

Cloud in KHII is heavily influenced by his appearance in AC.

In Dissidia, Cloud isn't really much like he is in KHII either. He's a little stoic, but he's not some mopey boo hoo motherfucker.

 

[hellsbells]

Honestly, Cid summed up Cloud's character better than anyone

You know, it was right after Cid's speech about Cloud that I thought "damn, Cloud is a really awesome guy".

 

[Masamune]

But as they've made abundantly clear, they're going to do what they think is "cool." Whatever they think is cool about Cloud in KH they are likely going to feel is cool about him in FF7.

I'm glad you used inverted commas, because we all know what that really means: Squenix will sell out to pop culture animu fans at the first opportunity. They practically admitted to it in the Reunion Files. They changed Cloud's image to suit the popular impression of him, in other words the stoic, introverted bishonen tailor made for all manner of yaoi slash-fics. He's a shadow of his former self.

Cloud's not the only character to experience this in the Compilation, by any means.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Cloud is a very complex character, and any attempts to simplify him turn him into a cariacature of himself. He isn't the same person by the end of (insert wherever the Compilation ends now) as he was when he left Nibelheim to seek and fortune at the age of 15, and that's how it should be: a hero must grow and change. But he has to keep dealing with so much crap all the time it's hard to know what he'd be like if his own life were a bit more stable. He always rises to the challenge, he doesn't quit, he inspires others, he willingly shoulders burdens that those others foist onto him, he doesn't trust easily or stupidly but is loyal to his friends and inspires great loyalty in return, and things like cruelty and injustice enrage him. I think it's quite a good thing he often feels helpless or inadequate; he'd be intolerable if he didn't.

 

[Glaurung]

My take on the matter has been pretty much summed up already, but I'll give my opinion anyway

What I like about Cloud is that his personality feels "real". He's not your typical hero who is always smiling and saying long moral speeches in front of the cammera and who knows perfectly what to do on every situation. He's not perfect, he's human, and went through many situations that many people can relate, like being socially awkward as a kid, having inferiority complexes or feeling guilty over something as serious as the death of someone close and dear to him.

But nowadays as soon as a character is shown on any scene becoming sad its automatically labeled as "emo", as if heroes didn't have the right to ever feel that way.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I see Cloud as the loser who fucked up and failed repeatedly before finally embracing himself and becoming someone who is worth a fuck. Unlike a lot of other FF characters who just seem to have an innate badassery. Cloud literally fought tooth and nail to get where he is. If anyone has earned bragging rights, it's him.

It's why he's relatable, and his struggle to live up to his dreams was so endearing.

DORK.

A badass dork, but a dork.

A hilariously uncool (in his own universe), bumbling, superhuman and extremely competent dork.

He's a character that's always felt alienated by others, yet at the same time extremely drawn to them. As such, he does not really know how to act around others. He's socially awkward but tries to overcome it, rather than isolate himself.

He doesn't think much of himself. Because of that, he desperately wants to prove to others how worthy he is, but always fails to convince himself. The irony is that by trying to set himself apart from everyone else, he is in fact trying to be included.

He's actually a pretty dorky guy but tries to mask who he is because he is so insecure. His attempts at making himself appear cooler than he is comes of as insanely try-hard and actually makes him look even dorkier.

Cloud is a very complex character, and any attempts to simplify him turn him into a cariacature of himself. He isn't the same person by the end of (insert wherever the Compilation ends now) as he was when he left Nibelheim to seek and fortune at the age of 15, and that's how it should be: a hero must grow and change. But he has to keep dealing with so much crap all the time it's hard to know what he'd be like if his own life were a bit more stable. He always rises to the challenge, he doesn't quit, he inspires others, he willingly shoulders burdens that those others foist onto him, he doesn't trust easily or stupidly but is loyal to his friends and inspires great loyalty in return, and things like cruelty and injustice enrage him. I think it's quite a good thing he often feels helpless or inadequate; he'd be intolerable if he didn't.

All of this is an adequate summary of who Cloud is, and illustrates Licorice's point exactly about what a complex character he is. And KH adequately illustrates Licorice's other point that attempts to simplify him turn him into a weak caricature that barely resembles the actual Cloud.

The only way I can think to summarize who Cloud is in a simple manner while still doing justice to everything all of you said is this: He's the FFVII universe's Spider-Man -- a dorky, awkward teenager with a big heart who got superpowers.

No, it doesn't matter in the least. It's not Cloud, it's a character in KH who is completely irrelevant to the real thing.

Same people on not, they can do whatever the fuck they want in KH.

Recent depictions of a character called "Cloud," however, may be a reasonable indication of what they would be likely to do with another character of the same name and same appearance in future titles.

What I like about Cloud is that his personality feels "real". He's not your typical hero who is always smiling and saying long moral speeches in front of the cammera and who knows perfectly what to do on every situation. He's not perfect, he's human, and went through many situations that many people can relate, like being socially awkward as a kid, having inferiority complexes or feeling guilty over something as serious as the death of someone close and dear to him.

But nowadays as soon as a character is shown on any scene becoming sad its automatically labeled as "emo", as if heroes didn't have the right to ever feel that way.

"It may sound absurd, but don't be naive/
Even heroes have the right to bleed/
I may be disturbed, but won't you concede/
Even heroes have the right to dream"
-Five for Fighting, "Superman (It's Not Easy)"

That could actually be Cloud's theme song, I think.

 

[Shademp]

Excellent question and it feels like I can't find an adequate answer but here goes.

Like LicoriseAllsorts noted, he is a different person depending on when we are looking at him. He has evolved tremendously. From the young teenager who couldn't even hold down Hollander, to the guy who performs limit break finishers on the most powerful guy on the planet. From the boy who looked down on himself and desperately longed to prove his worth, to the man we see at the end of ACC who has learned that what matters is that you TRY.

He's introverted and appreciates time alone. His job as a delivery man gives him this time to himself; any monsters on the way will be no problem either which is an advantage not many delivery men can brag about.
'Strife Delivery Service; no weather nor giant monsters of mass-destruction shall prevent the goods from reaching their destination!'

The only way I can think to summarize who Cloud is in a simple manner while still doing justice to everything all of you said is this: He's the FFVII universe's Spider-Man -- a dorky, awkward teenager with a big heart who got superpowers.

^THIS. I find that comparison equally awesome and fitting every time I hear/read it. =)

 

[Max Payne]

Recent depictions of a character called "Cloud," however, may be a reasonable indication of what they would be likely to do with another character of the same name and same appearance in future titles.

So, I should assume that Batman will become a murderous psychopath in the future because of his alternate world appearance in countdown?

It's silly man.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Given the reason he was depicted as he was in KH (popular interpretations of the character), it's not silly. And it's not an unreasonable expectation either, given that Dissidia -- which features the "616 Cloud" and came after KHII -- took him in much the same direction, albeit with more character exploration.

Hell, Dissidia and OtWtaS: Case of the Lifestream Black even worked in that whole thing about Cloud's being Cloud calling Seph back.

 

[Max Payne]

Given the reason he was depicted as he was in KH (popular interpretations of the character), it's not silly. And it's not an unreasonable expectation either, given that Dissidia -- which features the "616 Cloud" and came after KHII -- took him in much the same direction, albeit with more character exploration.

It's silly.

I don't remember Dissidia Cloud being all mopey and devoid of any intelligence beyond HURR HAVE TO FIND SOMETHING POSSIBLY SEPHIROTH.

Cloud was trying to look behind the veil and find out what was going on. He was a little more stoic than usual, but meh.

There's no reason to assume that the real Cloud will be anything like that in the future(other than SE being morons that is). In AC there was a deliberate reason for that. In KHII they were following what they had already started in KH years before AC was released.

Cloud moved past all that in AC, there's no reason to assume he'd be like that in the future past bad writing. Alternate universe appearances don't have any real bearing on the story man. You can find a few correlating themes, but that's all.

 

[Roger]

KH Cloud wasn't that bad. Just a hired sword that turned good after Sora beat him. He was okay. Not the deepest depiction of Cloud but as a precursor to KH2 it's above and beyond what you could hope for.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It's silly.

I don't remember Dissidia Cloud being all mopey and devoid of any intelligence beyond HURR HAVE TO FIND SOMETHING POSSIBLY SEPHIROTH.

Cloud was trying to look behind the veil and find out what was going on. He was a little more stoic than usual, but meh.

There's no reason to assume that the real Cloud will be anything like that in the future(other than SE being morons that is). In AC there was a deliberate reason for that. In KHII they were following what they had already started in KH years before AC was released.

Cloud moved past all that in AC, there's no reason to assume he'd be like that in the future past bad writing.

But nobody was saying there's a reason to expect him to be mopey. Force was saying there's reason to be hopeful that he'll be his genuine thoughtful but cocky self in future titles, as even KHII had a little bit of the sober cockiness in there, and I was agreeing with him. I think you misunderstood Force's point.

 

[Max Payne]

No, force implied Cloud's appearance in KH would have some bearing on his appearance in the future and I strongly disagree.

I did not misunderstand a thing. Saying he'll be like his KHII incarnation is saying he'll be a mopey douchebag who largely ignores his friends. Because that's what he is in KHII.

 

[ForceStealer]

But that's not what I said, and what I said about KHII was a minor point anyway.

I was saying that Square seems to be vaguely aware of what actually makes Cloud cool because he was as he is at the end of VII in the beginning of Case of Tifa and in Dirge of Cerberus. And then I added that EVEN KHII had a moment.

 

[Max Payne]

But that's not what I said, and what I said about KHII was a minor point anyway.

I was saying that Square seems to be vaguely aware of what actually makes Cloud cool because he was as he is at the end of VII in the beginning of Case of Tifa and in Dirge of Cerberus. And then I added that EVEN KHII had a moment.

You still implied that KH had some bearing on Cloud's real character, whether it was intentional or not. You did so further by arguing with me that KH mattered because it had the same writers.

What am I supposed to think when you say that?

 

[ForceStealer]

Also, though I think KH's presentation is a lousy Cloud too, even KHII had that scene where he was being cocky (and subtly ripping on Squall at the same time), which also could potentially bode well.

I don't really see the implication, but okay. I only mentioned the same writers because I figured you were arguing my actual point.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't see the implication either. I just see it as what you meant it: They've been writing Cloud as he should be lately, and even KHII had a moment like that, so it leaves you optimistic that he'll be portrayed as he should be in the next FFVII title.

 

[ForceStealer]

I remember being thrilled at that scene, lol. First of all, I love any dig on Squall, but the fact that Cloud made it:

"There he is! I missed you!"

 

[Max Payne]

You know what, fuck both of you.

Two cunts of the same cloth.

EDIT: yes I want a warning you fags.

 

[Makoeyes987]

What the hell's the disagreement over?

Are we arguing about whether Cloud's depiction in KH has any bearing on FFVII? Because we all know it doesn't.

Are we arguing about whether Cloud's depiction in kH has any significance in terms of where the writers feel Cloud's character needs to be taken? Because again, that's a bit of a stretch. If that were the case, then wouldn't he have continued to have been displayed that way?

I'm totally lost here.

 

[Max Payne]

I disputed the idea that how Cloud was written in KH had anything to with how he'd be written anywhere else, and now people are saying that argument was never made in the first place when this:

Also, though I think KH's presentation is a lousy Cloud too, even KHII had that scene where he was being cocky (and subtly ripping on Squall at the same time), which also could potentially bode well.

But as they've made abundantly clear, they're going to do what they think is "cool." Whatever they think is cool about Cloud in KH they are likely going to feel is cool about him in FF7.

Given the reason he was depicted as he was in KH (popular interpretations of the character), it's not silly. And it's not an unreasonable expectation either, given that Dissidia -- which features the "616 Cloud" and came after KHII -- took him in much the same direction, albeit with more character exploration.

This right here implies that the way he was written in KH could have some bearing on future iterations of Cloud in the compilation.

I went on the mopey tangent because that's who Cloud was in KHII. He was NOTHING like the original Cloud. Making one offhand snide remark in response to Cloud amidst a see of dumb mopey wannabe stoic lone wolf shit does not make him like the real Cloud, past that shit in AC which was an isolated incident.

But hey, if people want to pretend I'm going on about nothing then ok.

 

[ForceStealer]

Dammit will you all understand better if I just edit my post to delete the incidental KH2 comment? It clearly makes no sense except to 'cunts of the same cloth'.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I disputed the idea that how Cloud was written in KH had anything to with how he'd be written anywhere else, and now people are saying that argument was never made in the first place when this:

Also, though I think KH's presentation is a lousy Cloud too, even KHII had that scene where he was being cocky (and subtly ripping on Squall at the same time), which also could potentially bode well.

Given the reason he was depicted as he was in KH (popular interpretations of the character), it's not silly. And it's not an unreasonable expectation either, given that Dissidia -- which features the "616 Cloud" and came after KHII -- took him in much the same direction, albeit with more character exploration.

This right here implies that the way he was written in KH could have some bearing on future iterations of Cloud in the compilation.

This right here implies that the way he was written in KH could have some bearing on future iterations of Cloud in the compilation.

I went on the mopey tangent because that's who Cloud was in KHII. He was NOTHING like the original Cloud. Making one offhand snide remark in response to Cloud amidst a see of dumb mopey wannabe stoic lone wolf shit does not make him like the real Cloud, past that shit in AC which was an isolated incident.

But hey, if people want to pretend I'm going on about nothing then ok.

You're creating a cropped image of the situation here, though I think it's probably due to a misunderstanding on your part since the full context began a day ago. Your statement that "This right here implies that the way he was written in KH could have some bearing on future iterations of Cloud in the compilation" is -- while true -- an incomplete statement, as the full picture includes this post by Force:

However, what little you do see (and more of what you hear) is promising. He's confident, he jokes with Vincent, and though the game isn't about him, he still kinda "orders" Vincent about what to do.
I'm less worried about that particular aspect of a remake because if they jsut leave the script alone Cloud shouldn't change too much (I know seeing facial expressions and stuff can change some stuff).

What I was concerned about is the conclusion to the Compilation. You've all seen me defend Cloud's depression in Advent Children, and I still think it makes sense in-universe. But if they KEPT him that way afterwards (like he is in Kingdom Hearts), then that would be really shitty. The brief glimpses of him we get in Dirge makes me a little hopeful, and the fact that he was different in Crisis Core says to me that Square is at least somewhat aware of the changes in his character...

Basically, what's going on here is as if Force had said that everyone's current ire toward SE is a result of the limited content of FFXIII, the promised DLC content for that game that they've now revealed will never be delivered, the Japanese port for the 360 with bonus content that was promised would never exist but now will, and the shitty direction FFXIV is going in -- but then you said that he was just attributing it to the limited content of FFXIII.

Force mentioned Cloud's depiction in KH as just one of the recent depictions of the character which makes him optimistic about Cloud's depiction in a future FFVII title, and it was also the most minor reference he made; an afterthought.