Hypothetical scenario

[LicoriceAllsorts]

We can see now why Hojo won the war to become head of the science department.

Neither of these scientists really know what they're doing - but isn't that the whole point? Isn't that the message of the game: stop messing around with shit you don't understand. Hojo at least is willing to concede - nay, gleefully admits that he keeps getting it wrong. It's like he's in some kind of mental game of chess with Science, and he's positively delighted whenever science makes some smart move that he didn't forsee.

 

[Shizuka]

Deepground and Genesis really give me a headache. They are part of compilation that I like to forget.

Getting on topic about Sephiroth's strength as there have been a few posts about it. Before mad Sephiroth even then be was force to be not be taken lightly, I really don't think Zack or the Turks would of been able to degeat him and as for Genesis I think he was the one who made Sephiroth take him seriously but I believe that was just added by SE for fan girls and the whole Gackt thing.

As for deepground and the Tsveits (spelling misrake?) wouldn't that diminish the character of Sephiroth as SE have stated that in terms of powers there's nothing above him? I know Cloud has pawned him time and time again but I always saw it as the hero has something truly worth fighting for this having this tremendous will to defeat whoever in order to protect his loved ones.

Plus mad Sephiroth is way to cocky.

 

[Wolfmania]

We can see now why Hojo won the war to become head of the science department.

Neither of these scientists really know what they're doing - but isn't that the whole point? Isn't that the message of the game: stop messing around with shit you don't understand. Hojo at least is willing to concede - nay, gleefully admits that he keeps getting it wrong. It's like he's in some kind of mental game of chess with Science, and he's positively delighted whenever science makes some smart move that he didn't forsee.

That's a very good point. It is a pretty big Hojo sub-theme.

But would it apply to Hollander, as well?

 

[Shizuka]

Hollander another part of CC personally I don't think that was needed. I really wanted more Sephiroth/Hojo interactions and Hojo being the mastermind behind it all like in FFVII. Instead of the sub plot of Genesis and Angeal.

 

[Unlucky]

OMG, Unlucky, I didn't recognise you! Did you get contact lenses or something?

This is me when I'm PMS-ing, you'll get used to it.

 

[Roger]

Well if we're playing this game again then I'd add BC to the list. Jade Weapon flying around a world while Cloud is in Midgar is way worse then Genesis showing up in the Nibelheim Reactor. Red XIII's mate Deneh is worse still. Their rendition of the Nibelheim incident is terrible. If it were me I'd just go Vincent game set in the early beginnings of Shinra>Crisis Core with Zack and Sephiroth focusing on the Wutai War and the battle against original AVALANCHE>Advent Children. Nothing that contests that Sephiroth is top dog, or inexplicably sidelines Cloud for no reason. But that's not what we have.

 

[Unlucky]

All of the Compilation games feel very disconnected to the original because they try to chuck in something completely new instead of expounding on the existing universe. Whenever I read 'Zirconiade' or 'Restrictors' it's like they came from a different series.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

And once again, as soon as BC/CC/DoC is brought up and actually taken seriously, certain people on the forum hijack the thread and turn it into a "why we hate the compilation" thread... It's getting old peoples.

Spoiler: *sarcastic*

NOT!

 

[Clement Rage]

Re: Rosso v Cloud. That battle is inconclusive, we don't see how it ends. All kinds of things could have happened from Rosso getting a phonecall to get back to the central complex to either of them being distracted another part of the war. There's a war going on, folks, it's very easy to have your neat little duel interrupted.

Re: Weiss v Sephiroth: Isn't it mentioned that Weiss is especially strong in the reactor core which was why he can take Rosso so easily, and he's weaker outside it? Same thing is mentioned in a scene with Shelke

Sephiroth is more powerful after his death, but he's more dangerous sane. Pre-Nibelheim, he was all about one hit kills and area effect spells, after that he starts playing with his food.

Genesis v Deepground. It wouldn't just be the Tsviets, there are thousands of DG soldiers. If it comes to a fight, he flees or is toast. Weiss alone could go either way. The copies might put up a fight, but Genesis' mechs were smuggled out of Shinra, he can't field anything like a fleet of helicopters.

Sephiroth/Genesis&copies v Tsviets &DG army? If Seph and Gen try a straight fight, they'll decimate the DGs but lose...which President Shinra would probably be fine with. Weiss v Sephiroth or Genesis...I'm inclined to say Seph would win, but I don't know for certain.

However Nero seems to be unbeatable by anyone except Vincent Valentine -his darkness destroys everything else not 'born from it'.

 

[Shizuka]

I agree sane Sephiroth is far more dangerous than mad Sephiroth.

 

[Unlucky]

And once again, as soon as BC/CC/DoC is brought up and actually taken seriously, certain people on the forum hijack the thread and turn it into a "why we hate the compilation" thread... It's getting old peoples.

Spoiler: *sarcastic*

NOT!

Yeah, it's not like it led to some actual good discussions at all, y'all just a bunch of whiny pussies!

 

[Cat Rage Room]

As cool as Sephiroth is the thought of him being able to beat the entire combined force of every powerful warrior in the world is hilarious when in the original game he got beat by a SOLDIER 1st Class equalvaent and like, 7-8 other more or less average dudes.

Sephiroth can't take on the entire world.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^Well, it isn't like Sephrioth was taken down by 7-8 Lvl. 10 game characters... I'd think it would be a fair bet to say the each of the members of AVALANCHE could take down an normal SOLDIER 1st or 2nd Class by themselves. They may have been normal people when the game started, but they certainly weren't when it ended. And Cloud and Vincent don't count as average...

Yeah, it's not like it led to some actual good discussions at all, y'all just a bunch of whiny pussies!

But we've had this same type of discussion at least three times before... We get it: the Compilation is a mess of retcons. And some of us like it in spite of all that. It just gets annoying that any discussion of BC/CC/DoC inevitably devolves into why some people hate it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I feel like the Tsviets have been underestimated a good bit in this discussion. Hojo calls them the most powerful warriors in the world, so there has to be something to them.

Added to that, there must be a reason they were kept contained from the outside world as an added measure despite already having control chips implanted.

Yeah, Seph was probably stronger. Perhaps Angeal and Genesis were too -- though I think Genesis was the only one of the two said to be close to Sephiroth in fighting ability. Even if that is the case, though, they clearly outclass the rest of SOLDIER. They would at least pose a threat to Sephiroth and/or Genesis, and, as a group, very well may kill them.

I'm sure Cloud is stronger than anyone from that train-wreck of a game. After all, he did easily beat Kadaj quite easily, who was stated to be around as strong as Sephiroth in VII, and then squared off with Sephiroth in AC/C pretty well.

I can remember this statement about Kadaj being said, but can't remember who said it, when or where. I tried checking a few sources and can't find it now.

It's bothering me.

 

[Roger]

Re: Rosso v Cloud. That battle is inconclusive, we don't see how it ends. All kinds of things could have happened from Rosso getting a phonecall to get back to the central complex to either of them being distracted another part of the war. There's a war going on, folks, it's very easy to have your neat little duel interrupted.

Could be, but I just didn't get the impression that "ignore this, she's nothing to Cloud" is what they wanted us to take away from it was.

Re: Weiss v Sephiroth: Isn't it mentioned that Weiss is especially strong in the reactor core which was why he can take Rosso so easily, and he's weaker outside it? Same thing is mentioned in a scene with Shelke

I don't remember that but even then, he was fighting Rosso and Azul at the same time in the core. The core would have to be great power boost inded for him to be such an endless amount less impressive then Cloud without it.

Sephiroth is more powerful after his death, but he's more dangerous sane. Pre-Nibelheim, he was all about one hit kills and area effect spells, after that he starts playing with his food.

He oneshotted that Ifrit, sure but I dunno what else you are talking about. He seemed plenty playful to me during his fight with Genesis.

Genesis v Deepground. It wouldn't just be the Tsviets, there are thousands of DG soldiers. If it comes to a fight, he flees or is toast. Weiss alone could go either way. The copies might put up a fight, but Genesis' mechs were smuggled out of Shinra, he can't field anything like a fleet of helicopters.

Thank you. The normal DG troops aren't crap either. In DoC, they held out against Cloud, Barret and Tifa a good four chapters longer then they were suppose to.

 

[Clement Rage]

That was a sparring match between friends that got a little out of hand, not a fight to the death. In the Nibelheim flashback, Sephiroth ends every encounter with one attack.

Cloud beat Kadaj easily? I don't remember that, from what I recall it took at least ten minutes and a helpful power up from Aeris' church even though Kadaj was fighting one handed and had to protect his mom's head.

Sephiroth can't take on the entire world.

Um... he did. I take the point that he can't take on the world in direct combat, but he knows that too. That was the point of the magic barrier, which took a Midgar powered Sister Ray to breach. He's not a 'charge hopeless odds' kind of guy, if the entire world is against him he finds a way to avoid fighting them.

 

[Roger]

That was a sparring match between friends that got a little out of hand, not a fight to the death. In the Nibelheim flashback, Sephiroth ends every encounter with one attack.

That was after he had gone insane.

 

[Shizuka]

The whole Sephiroth strength debate. Again didn't SE say that there was nothing above him? I'm not saying he could take on the entire world but I'm sure he could bloody well try.

 

[Roger]

The whole Sephiroth strength debate. Again didn't SE say that there was nothing above him?

Yeah, that's what SE goes for when they write him and they made sure to make stronger, a lot stronger in Advent Children so it would stay that way.

But you asked about the hypothetical scenerio if all stuff that SE had happen to him in canon no longer happens to him and he just stays a mortal man. in that event, him being and staying the strongest is no longer incontrovertible truth if you ask me.

 

[Clement Rage]

That was after he had gone insane.

No, it wasn't. I'm referring to Cloud telling his story in Kalm. Sephiroth starts to lose his grip after he first reaches Nibelheim reactor. En route to said reactor in the OG, it's possible to engage in random encounters with the local fauna. If there's one attacker, Sephiroth stabs it to death, if there's two, he casts Earth3 or similar for one hit kills on all enemies. He's still sane at that point. There's also a DMV flashback where he urges Zack to kill a monster with one strike. And he bisects Ifrit in CC and a dragon in BC, all single stroke kills.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yes, there is nothing stronger than Sephiroth, nothing above him. We all know that quote, and I'm not contesting that. But when people use it to rationalize that Sephiroth could take on the entire population of the planet in open combat its pretty fucking ridiculous. We know that Cloud and co. were extraordinarily powerful individuals, but there was nothing intrisically specific to them that allowed them to beat Sephiroth, nor are they, especially considering the Compilation, the only superpowered kids on the block.

The way FFVII went down, yes, Cloud and co were the only feasable ones who could take Sephiroth out, especially before Meteor hit. But that's the thing, FFVII as a narrative is only one out of a lot of particular 'what ifs' that could have happened based on the information we are given. However, given the fact that the Compilation has introduced a multitude of powerful individuals, while Sephiroth is stronger than them individually (as he was stronger individually than every one of AVALANCHE who ended up killing him, save Cloud, (which is very, very arguable as we all know)), in a group setting there is no reason to assume that Sephiroth could just, kill every able combatant on the planet. It's hilarious. FFVII already proved that Sephiroth isn't invincible. That nigga dead.

However yes, realistically Sephiroth would do the smart thing and not stand out in a field going "HEY WORLD COME AT ME BRO" waiting for everyone to kill him. Sephiroth was mainly beaten by the unique circumstances that produced the adventure of FFVII in the first place, his relationship to Cloud, the knowledge that AVALANCHE was privy to, the resources they gathered, and their mindfulness of finding solutions.

Yes, Sephiroth is the strongest cat around, but he's not like, magically unbeatable.

 

[Shizuka]

Yeah, that's what SE goes for when they write him and they made sure to make stronger, a lot stronger in Advent Children so it would stay that way.

But you asked about the hypothetical scenerio if all stuff that SE had happen to him in canon no longer happens to him and he just stays a mortal man. in that event, him being and staying the strongest is no longer incontrovertible truth if you ask me.

It's true I started the thread about hypothetical scenarios but people started saying that Sephiroth could not fight the Tsviets I'm not arguing that I was just playing devils advocate by saying what SE said.

I also think it's a stupid notion that Sephiroth could take on the entire planet and one I certainly don't believe. But I do think if he was faced with the ShinRa army like Zack the outcome would of been interesting. Isn't that how all stories are made villain a lot stronger than the heroes but obviously the hero is going to win otherwise it would not make a very good story. Again I think sane Sephiroth was a lot more dangerous than crazy Sephiroth I know he's more powerful after the lifestream but after that he just becomes retarded.

 

[Roger]

But I do think if he was faced with the ShinRa army like Zack the outcome would of been interesting.

I don't think that's in the cards. Shinra respects Sephiroth's strength a lot more then Zacks. They'd throw everything they could at him.

 

[Shizuka]

I don't think that's in the cards. Shinra respects Sephiroth's strength a lot more then Zacks. They'd throw everything they could at him.

That's a really good point I never thought of it like that.

 

[jazzflower92]

One aspect of Sephiroth I think people need to also take into account is the fact that he is very smart and would probably be thinking of a lot of plans in order to avoid Shinra's wrath.President Shinra himself commented a little bit about Sephiroth's intelligence.