"I lost the last time as well."

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Cloud
"Hojo! Stop right there!!"

(Hojo does not turn to face them. He merely continues his work.)

Hojo
"Oh... the failure."

Cloud
"At least remember my name! It's Cloud!"

(Hojo stops working but still does not turn)

Hojo
"Every time I see you, I..."
"It pains me that I had so little scientific sense..."

(He resumes.)

Hojo
"I evaluated you as a failed project."
"But, you are the only one that succeeded as a Sephiroth-clone."
"Heh, heh, heh......... I'm even beginning to hate myself."

Cloud
"None of that matters... just stop this nonsense!"

Hojo
"...nonsense?"
"Oh, this?"

(He finally turns to look at Cloud.)

Hojo
"Ha, ha, ha..."
"Sephiroth seems to be counting on the energy."
"So I'm going to lend him a hand."

Cloud
"Why!? Why do that!?"

Hojo
"Quit asking me why, you moron."

(He walks up to look Cloud in the eye.)

Hojo
"Hmm... actually, you might be cut out to be a scientist."

(He turns back to the panel.)

Hojo
"Energy level is at...... 83%. It's taking too long."

(He resumes his button-pressing.)

Hojo
"My son is in need of power and help. ...That's the only reason."

Cloud
"...your son?"

Hojo
"Ha, ha, ha... Although he doesn't know."

(He begins to laugh so hard he has to stop working.)

Hojo
"Ha, ha, ha... HA, HA, HA...!!"
"What will Sephiroth think when he finds out that I'm his father?"
"Always looking down on me like that."
"HA, HA, HA...!!"

Cloud
"Sephiroth is your son!?"

(Hojo resumes his work once more.)

Hojo
"Ha, ha, ha..."
"I offered the woman with my child to Professor Gast's Jenova
Project."
"When Sephiroth was still in the womb, we took the cells of
Jenova..."
"HA, HA, HA!!"

Cloud
"I can't believe you're the one who did this..."
"The illusionary crime against Sephiroth..."

(Hojo stops and calmly turns to face Cloud. They stare at each other for a
long moment, then Hojo begins to laugh.)

Hojo
"Heee, hee, hee, hee! No, you're wrong!"
"It's my desire as a scientist! Heee, hee, hee, hee!"

(He stops abruptly)

Hojo
"I... was defeated by my desire to
become a scientist."
"I lost the last time as well."

source: http://members.fortunecity.com/sephkatana/ff7stuff/ff7sc.html

Obviously, this is the scene at the top of the Sister Ray, before the party fights Hojo. Much of what he says is cryptic and insane anyhow, and possibly steeped in poor translations, but what do you suppose Hojo meant when he says, "I lost the last time as well?" What did Hojo lose? When?

He could possibly be referring to the first time that the party encounters him, when they free Red XIII, but Hojo's statement that he was "defeated by his desire to become a scientist" would seem to predate that, and "I lost the last time as well" predate his alleged defeat by his desire to become a scientist.

Furthermore, his sudden serious moment of introspection would indicate that this loss that he refers to might be something more personal to him, as personal as defeat to his life's ambitions would be. There's a group of Hojo and Hojo/Lucrecia fans out there who believe that the loss he refers to is the loss of Lucrecia—that, in his desire to pursue science, he allowed it to defeat him by causing her to "die." But I don't believe that he held Lucrecia in high enough regard for the loss of her to have affected him so deeply.

He could refer to his inability to actually take his wife's affections away from Vincent in a more possessive sense, but his dialogue left vague in case the party had not met Vincent, and/or also to conceal that something so petty bothered him. But that wouldn't seem to be affected by his "desire to become a scientist."

He could refer to his failure to ever reach the level of Gast's genius or surpass the man professionally while he was still alive. (Hojo had to kill Gast before that could ever happen.)

He could perhaps refer to something that happened the "last time" Sephiroth died.

Or he could mean something else.

What sayest thou? What happened to Hojo that, at this moment of truth, he would have thought of himself to have "lost"?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I never looked into that deeply. BUT, now that it's drawn my attention, I just think it's either a mistranslation or just bad writing on that part. We know next to nothing at all about Hojo himself.

 

[Masamune]

I had a little look around, and this is all I found from the Japanese translation. I'm sure vilaeth will confirm this or not:

Cloud: 'You are doing all this... to make it up to Sephiroth? Because you treated him so badly...'

Hojo: 'Heeeeheeehee!! No no. It's my GREED as a scientist!!'

Hojo: 'I was.... hic! Science and Greed took over me. Just a while ago... I injected myself with Jenova cells...heeheeheeee... the result?? Heeheehee!!! I'll show you right now!!'


Hojo was obviously on the sauce in the Japanese version, as well as Jenova cells... *hic!*

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Lol, Hojo was supposed to be drunk in that scene? That's pretty amusing, actually.

But the bit about him injecting Jenova cells actually comes after the part that I quoted in the English script. I just didn't bother to include it because it seemed extraneous.

Hojo
"I... was defeated by my desire to
become a scientist."
"I lost the last time as well."

(He begins to gleefully dance about.)

Hojo
"I've injected Jenova's cells into my
own body!"
"Heee, hee, hee!"
"Here are......"
"Heee, hee, hee!"
"...my results!!"

(Boss battle with Hojo. He undergoes three transformations during the
battle, each more deformed than the last, as Jenova's cells take effect.)

So it looks like they inserted that line about him "losing last time as well" out of nowhere? There doesn't even seem to be something congruent to that in Japanese... Why would they do that? =(

 

[Countess Ariadne]

[quote author=Ravynne link=topic=374.msg9913#msg9913 date=1232493432]
He could refer to his failure to ever reach the level of Gast's genius or surpass the man professionally while he was still alive. (Hojo had to kill Gast before that could ever happen.)
[/quote]

That's what I always thought it was.

 

[Strangelove]

I should be doing other things, but I can't resist these topics

It doesn't make sense because the line before it is slightly off.

???… ??????? ??????????????
????????????????????????????????????

It's meant to be 'I was defeat by (gave in to) my desire as a scientist' again, this is probably about the creation of Sephiroth. It's the same as the one that just came before it.

The 'last time' is 'recently'. He recently as well gave in to it again, injecting Jenova cells into his own body.

It does just say 'lost to', but given the previous line and the 'as well' I think it's clear he caved in to his desire again.

On another note:

Cloud
"I can't believe you're the one who did this..."
"The illusionary crime against Sephiroth..."

????????????????????…… ???????????……?

Should rather be something like "So the reason you're doing this... is as atonement to Sephiroth..." That's why he says Cloud is wrong. It's not for that, but his own scientific lust.

It's basically what the version Masa posted says, although that one seems to have mistaken 'desire as a scientist' as 'science and desire'.

I assumed his 'hic' was some crazy laugh or something

 

[ForceStealer]

That definitely makes a lot more sense, although I must admit I kinda prefer the "illusionary crime against Sephiroth" line myself.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Cloud
"I can't believe you're the one who did this..."
"The illusionary crime against Sephiroth..."

????????????????????…… ???????????……?

Should rather be something like "So the reason you're doing this... is as atonement to Sephiroth..." That's why he says Cloud is wrong. It's not for that, but his own scientific lust.

Thank you so much for clarifying that for me. Every time I ever saw that line I never ever understood it. Why did he say "illusionary"? The "crime" per say, is real. Or rather the facts of the situation are real--debating the point of it being a crime, which I debate it was, in a strictly moral sense (since a legal since has no standing in a world ruled by Shinra). This makes the rest of Hojo's rant relate to everything else in the game and what he's doing and why.

That makes it so much clearer.

 

[Strangelove]

The last part, ??? [horoboshi], sounds sort of like ? [maboroshi], which is illusion. But in writing they don't look anything alike, so I can't really see them making that mistake.

Then I look at the rest of the game

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah I guess thinking about it, illusionary doesn't make sense, but I always took it to mean unseen. The crime against Sephiroth which no one knows about.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Yeah I guess thinking about it, illusionary doesn't make sense, but I always took it to mean unseen. The crime against Sephiroth which no one knows about.

I suppose I did as well.

This definitely makes so much sense, though it does disappoint me a bit because I thought that line revealed a little more depth to Hojo. I guess they really did mean to make him a one-dimensional bastard.

Oh well, at least it makes their total rape of him in Dirge make a little more sense, knowing that.

 

[katimus_prime]

I count as being colored unobservant in this matter. I totally didn't notice that little dangler until you pointed it out. If -I- were the one running with just that line, I'd do something with a past life, but that means constructing a whole huge fic-a-verse. :B NOT THAT I'D EVER DO THAT, NO, NOT ME. <3

ANYWAY, HI!!

 

[Brandless]

Damn. I saw this thread and I had to join the site. I never realized there were screw ups like this in the game. I feel like playing again so I can take note of everything I find that doesn't make sense. I wonder how much else is screwed up like this.

Edit: By the way, I noticed one of you guys (hitoshura) seems to have all the lines we're referring to in Japanese! You wouldn't happen to have the Japanese script by any chance, would you? I've been searching forever but I can't seem to find anything. This site has the script from the beginning up until Costa Del Sol and its pretty damn detailed but after that, nothing. http://rokoran.com/ff7hokankeikaku/ff7/script/story.htm

 

[Arianna]

Hmmmmm... Good question, Ravynne. This is something I think about too.

Personally, I always thought Hojo's need to be a scientist and to succeed in scientific pursuits overtook everything else that he wanted and/or needed, to the point it drove him insane, or it only furthered his insanity. Since everyone has a tragic background in FFVII, I see Hojo as no different: a victim of circumstances, things beyond his control, and when fate finally was within his ability to control, it was too late to stop the cycle of destruction that ultimately finished him.

I think there is a part of him that still remains that is not sick in the head. I believe that part actually is 'heard' by him every now and again, and reminds him of his limitations, of how he's gone about whatever his goals are the wrong way... This part of him was the part he was acknowledging, I think. I do believe his conscious spoke up when he saw (undoubtably he did) how Lucrecia was so affected by the Jenova cells; and, I think he realized in some form just what he was doing to his own son, and consequently, his wife.

A part of me says that he was never meant to be a scientist. I don't know why - perhaps it's just feelings I get with how torn and shattered a man he really is. Sephiroth remarked about his 'complexes,' Vincent remarked about how 'queer' he was, Gast seemed to avoid conflict with him - though of course, Gast could have just been that sort of man (not wanting to fight). I don't believe his problems go to the love Lucrecia held for Vincent, though I wouldn't say that helped his psyche. I do like to believe that Lucrecia did see good in Hojo, despite his obvious problems, and as Vincent said - she wished to protect him. Hojo did need protection from himself, as did everyone else.

No one really knows what it is that will be the final straw that breaks someone indefinitely. Is healing possible, of course! Mental illness is not (always) permanent - at least, the majority of the symptoms can be controlled, though there are no cures. Sometimes people need more help than others; I see Hojo as this kind of man. No, not a failure, and despite my kindness to his character in this post - I do not in anyway mean to condone anything he's done (I'm sure his was a lab of horrors, though that is equally if not more so Shinra's fault.) I feel he dabbled in something that was not for him, and he fell way in over his head - and drowned, a long time ago, probably even before Lucrecia came into his life.

Ultimately, I would like to believe Hojo is talking about Sephiroth, about Lucrecia, and perhaps anyone else who was good to him, who meant something to him. He had moments in time when he actually was at the water's surface, but this obsession with science ultimately kept pulling him back down.

 

[Strangelove]

[quote author=Brandless link=topic=374.msg27681#msg27681 date=1236307700]
Edit: By the way, I noticed one of you guys (hitoshura) seems to have all the lines we're referring to in Japanese! You wouldn't happen to have the Japanese script by any chance, would you? I've been searching forever but I can't seem to find anything. This site has the script from the beginning up until Costa Del Sol and its pretty damn detailed but after that, nothing. http://rokoran.com/ff7hokankeikaku/ff7/script/story.htm
[/quote]
Japanese scripts have a bad habit of getting taken off line, but I think this was the one I used. It includes some extra writing describing scenes, so it's not just the dialogue.

http://members2.jcom.home.ne.jp/ffstory/ff/index.html

 

[Brandless]

Holy. Shit.

I've never seen anything like this before.

This is absolutely amazing. Wow.

Just wow.

Wow.

Thank you so much.

I'm gonna save everything on this site before it goes down. =P

I don't supposed you'd know of anything like this for Metal Gear Solid or Policenauts by any chance?

 

[Strangelove]

I wish I had one for Metal Gear Solid I've never been able to find a proper one.

Since Policenauts was fan-translated recently, I'd imagine there's a script for it somewhere. I wouldn't mind one, and hopefully not like the text-dumps from Snatcher.

 

[Brandless]

MGS isn't that long. I ought to just make the script myself and stick it on gamefaqs or something. MGSIIs is on the Document disc. I guess I could copy it too. 3 can wait. It'd be nice if I could get a hold of those scenario books but whatever. I'll be busy with these final fantasy ones for a while I guess. =P

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Personally, I always thought Hojo's need to be a scientist and to succeed in scientific pursuits overtook everything else that he wanted and/or needed, to the point it drove him insane, or it only furthered his insanity. Since everyone has a tragic background in FFVII, I see Hojo as no different: a victim of circumstances, things beyond his control, and when fate finally was within his ability to control, it was too late to stop the cycle of destruction that ultimately finished him.

Oh please. Everyone is responsible for themselves. Given what we know of him, it's his own fault he went off the deep end.

I mean no disrespect to your thoughts, but I dislike theories that take responsibility away from the villain unnecessarily.

 

[Arianna]

[quote author=The Notorious M.O.G. link=topic=374.msg29124#msg29124 date=1236748969]

Personally, I always thought Hojo's need to be a scientist and to succeed in scientific pursuits overtook everything else that he wanted and/or needed, to the point it drove him insane, or it only furthered his insanity. Since everyone has a tragic background in FFVII, I see Hojo as no different: a victim of circumstances, things beyond his control, and when fate finally was within his ability to control, it was too late to stop the cycle of destruction that ultimately finished him.

Oh please. Everyone is responsible for themselves. Given what we know of him, it's his own fault he went off the deep end.

I mean no disrespect to your thoughts, but I dislike theories that take responsibility away from the villain unnecessarily.
[/quote]

So when someone's mind snaps - whenever it is, and whatever it is that is the snapping point - it's their own fault?

I think I can see your point, but I totally disagree. What Hojo did was his own actions, but what drove him may have left his psyche completely in the dark. And how do you know what it is that drove him 'off the deep end'? I don't believe any of us were told, in story.

Honestly, I speak compassionately about people who do horrid things in a fit of emotional trauma because - though their actions are heinous - I know what it's like. I've had a mental breakdown, and I know what it's like to be on the edge of sanity. It's no fun place, and reality seriously becomes skewed... Yes, I was hospitalized (I was never violent so, no I was not restrained); no, I never hurt any creature (human or otherwise - though I did slap my ex husband).

A perfect world would have everyone responsible for their own actions, but no one lives in that perfect world. Sadly, outside influences do and will act upon us. When we will break, no one knows. This is a reality: everyone has a breaking point. Granted, some desperately hold on to sanity much more than others. I know for the love of the gods I did!

I think people who don't understand are easy to say something's black and white. It is a very hard thing to understand, when someone's mind does not work correctly.

Do we forget in truth, Shinra is the one who wanted all these experiments done in some time, form and fashion. They are the ones who wanted the living weapon. Hojo got on the bandwagon somewhere and agreed that his child will be used for that purpose. I will not say he did not do that; I am saying it's not sanity speaking (on more than Hojo's part, but...)

I feel I am pinpointing all the irons that were in this fire; all the components that make any destructive device. A bomb is not just one component - there are several things to it.

In so, Hojo is not so clean cut. That's all I'm trying to say. Whether or not the creators of FFVII and his character meant any real psychology behind him - well, I can't say there.

And this is one thing that makes FFVII so real and so vibrant to me - fictional people are like real people. Some hold it together, others do not. Some regain their sense of self and what they believe in, while others are lost forever.

 

[Strangelove]

[quote author=Brandless link=topic=374.msg29122#msg29122 date=1236748726]
MGS isn't that long. I ought to just make the script myself and stick it on gamefaqs or something. MGSIIs is on the Document disc. I guess I could copy it too. 3 can wait. It'd be nice if I could get a hold of those scenario books but whatever. I'll be busy with these final fantasy ones for a while I guess. =P
[/quote]
I would love to see one for MGS1 (and maybe 4 too), and might even do a bit of typing up myself if there's play videos on Niconico Douga or something.

I have the scripts for MGS2 (from Document) and MGS3 (Scenario Book), so I would miss the little comments in the script for MGS1 and 4 but would make do.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

[quote author=Arianna link=topic=374.msg29193#msg29193 date=1236773204]
[quote author=The Notorious M.O.G. link=topic=374.msg29124#msg29124 date=1236748969]

Personally, I always thought Hojo's need to be a scientist and to succeed in scientific pursuits overtook everything else that he wanted and/or needed, to the point it drove him insane, or it only furthered his insanity. Since everyone has a tragic background in FFVII, I see Hojo as no different: a victim of circumstances, things beyond his control, and when fate finally was within his ability to control, it was too late to stop the cycle of destruction that ultimately finished him.

Oh please. Everyone is responsible for themselves. Given what we know of him, it's his own fault he went off the deep end.

I mean no disrespect to your thoughts, but I dislike theories that take responsibility away from the villain unnecessarily.
[/quote]

So when someone's mind snaps - whenever it is, and whatever it is that is the snapping point - it's their own fault?

I think I can see your point, but I totally disagree. What Hojo did was his own actions, but what drove him may have left his psyche completely in the dark. And how do you know what it is that drove him 'off the deep end'? I don't believe any of us were told, in story.

Honestly, I speak compassionately about people who do horrid things in a fit of emotional trauma because - though their actions are heinous - I know what it's like. I've had a mental breakdown, and I know what it's like to be on the edge of sanity. It's no fun place, and reality seriously becomes skewed... Yes, I was hospitalized (I was never violent so, no I was not restrained); no, I never hurt any creature (human or otherwise - though I did slap my ex husband).

A perfect world would have everyone responsible for their own actions, but no one lives in that perfect world. Sadly, outside influences do and will act upon us. When we will break, no one knows. This is a reality: everyone has a breaking point. Granted, some desperately hold on to sanity much more than others. I know for the love of the gods I did!

I think people who don't understand are easy to say something's black and white. It is a very hard thing to understand, when someone's mind does not work correctly.

Do we forget in truth, Shinra is the one who wanted all these experiments done in some time, form and fashion. They are the ones who wanted the living weapon. Hojo got on the bandwagon somewhere and agreed that his child will be used for that purpose. I will not say he did not do that; I am saying it's not sanity speaking (on more than Hojo's part, but...)

I feel I am pinpointing all the irons that were in this fire; all the components that make any destructive device. A bomb is not just one component - there are several things to it.

In so, Hojo is not so clean cut. That's all I'm trying to say. Whether or not the creators of FFVII and his character meant any real psychology behind him - well, I can't say there.

And this is one thing that makes FFVII so real and so vibrant to me - fictional people are like real people. Some hold it together, others do not. Some regain their sense of self and what they believe in, while others are lost forever.
[/quote]

Well that's fine if you disagree, but to me, that's sort of like making excuses for Hitler. We don't know Hojo's backstory, so as far as I know, he made his own choices. It is possible to be at fault for your own insanity.

"Aww Hitler, poor baby! It's not YOUR fault you killed all of those Jews! You're just misunderstood."

 

[Makoeyes987]

There's been nothing shown in the Compilation or FFVII that puts the responsibility of Hojo's madness and evil character on anything but his own sick personality and weak self esteem.

He always felt that he was a weak scientist, and instead of being a better one through hard work, he's done nothing but plagiarize the works of others, kill off the competition, and exploit people for his own ambitions.

Hojo didn't really go insane at all until FFVII. And even then it wasn't that he snapped. He just finally decided to drop his professional front and let loose his sadistic and insane personality. He's not a victim in the least.

Everything isn't black and white and sometimes other things can push people over the edge. But Hojo's evil and madness is very clear. He's a wicked and weak individual who feels nothing for the people around him. He didn't love Lucrecia and he didn't care about the planet either. His actions are his own.

There's no excuse for murdering someone because you wanted to steal their work and achievements. And there's no excuse for experimenting on your own wife and using your own son as a guinea pig. There's nothing grey about it.

 

[Brandless]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=374.msg29237#msg29237 date=1236793881]
There's been nothing shown in the Compilation or FFVII that puts the responsibility of Hojo's madness and evil character on anything but his own sick personality and weak self esteem.

He always felt that he was a weak scientist, and instead of being a better one through hard work, he's done nothing but plagiarize the works of others, kill off the competition, and exploit people for his own ambitions.

Hojo didn't really go insane at all until FFVII. And even then it wasn't that he snapped. He just finally decided to drop his professional front and let loose his sadistic and insane personality. He's not a victim in the least.

Everything isn't black and white and sometimes other things can push people over the edge. But Hojo's evil and madness is very clear. He's a wicked and weak individual who feels nothing for the people around him. He didn't love Lucrecia and he didn't care about the planet either. His actions are his own.

There's no excuse for murdering someone because you wanted to steal their work and achievements. And there's no excuse for experimenting on your own wife and using your own son as a guinea pig. There's nothing grey about it.
[/quote]

Which mean that the English script's mistranslation which could be referring to some point in the past cannot be justified because Hojo was in fact and evil dickwad the whole time and he doesn't have any secrets. Good thing they have that retranslation on that one website rpggamer. I bet playing the game and comparing it to that script would reveal alot of things huh?

[quote author=hitoshura link=topic=374.msg29205#msg29205 date=1236775944]
I would love to see one for MGS1 (and maybe 4 too), and might even do a bit of typing up myself if there's play videos on Niconico Douga or something.

I have the scripts for MGS2 (from Document) and MGS3 (Scenario Book), so I would miss the little comments in the script for MGS1 and 4 but would make do.
[/quote]

Well you type out mgsIII's and I'll type out MGS1's and we'll do a joint project on II's. =P

 

[Arianna]

[quote author=The Notorious M.O.G. link=topic=374.msg29219#msg29219 date=1236784862]
[quote author=Arianna link=topic=374.msg29193#msg29193 date=1236773204]
[quote author=The Notorious M.O.G. link=topic=374.msg29124#msg29124 date=1236748969]

Personally, I always thought Hojo's need to be a scientist and to succeed in scientific pursuits overtook everything else that he wanted and/or needed, to the point it drove him insane, or it only furthered his insanity. Since everyone has a tragic background in FFVII, I see Hojo as no different: a victim of circumstances, things beyond his control, and when fate finally was within his ability to control, it was too late to stop the cycle of destruction that ultimately finished him.

Oh please. Everyone is responsible for themselves. Given what we know of him, it's his own fault he went off the deep end.

I mean no disrespect to your thoughts, but I dislike theories that take responsibility away from the villain unnecessarily.
[/quote]

So when someone's mind snaps - whenever it is, and whatever it is that is the snapping point - it's their own fault?

I think I can see your point, but I totally disagree. What Hojo did was his own actions, but what drove him may have left his psyche completely in the dark. And how do you know what it is that drove him 'off the deep end'? I don't believe any of us were told, in story.

Honestly, I speak compassionately about people who do horrid things in a fit of emotional trauma because - though their actions are heinous - I know what it's like. I've had a mental breakdown, and I know what it's like to be on the edge of sanity. It's no fun place, and reality seriously becomes skewed... Yes, I was hospitalized (I was never violent so, no I was not restrained); no, I never hurt any creature (human or otherwise - though I did slap my ex husband).

A perfect world would have everyone responsible for their own actions, but no one lives in that perfect world. Sadly, outside influences do and will act upon us. When we will break, no one knows. This is a reality: everyone has a breaking point. Granted, some desperately hold on to sanity much more than others. I know for the love of the gods I did!

I think people who don't understand are easy to say something's black and white. It is a very hard thing to understand, when someone's mind does not work correctly.

Do we forget in truth, Shinra is the one who wanted all these experiments done in some time, form and fashion. They are the ones who wanted the living weapon. Hojo got on the bandwagon somewhere and agreed that his child will be used for that purpose. I will not say he did not do that; I am saying it's not sanity speaking (on more than Hojo's part, but...)

I feel I am pinpointing all the irons that were in this fire; all the components that make any destructive device. A bomb is not just one component - there are several things to it.

In so, Hojo is not so clean cut. That's all I'm trying to say. Whether or not the creators of FFVII and his character meant any real psychology behind him - well, I can't say there.

And this is one thing that makes FFVII so real and so vibrant to me - fictional people are like real people. Some hold it together, others do not. Some regain their sense of self and what they believe in, while others are lost forever.
[/quote]

Well that's fine if you disagree, but to me, that's sort of like making excuses for Hitler. We don't know Hojo's backstory, so as far as I know, he made his own choices. It is possible to be at fault for your own insanity.

"Aww Hitler, poor baby! It's not YOUR fault you killed all of those Jews! You're just misunderstood."
[/quote]

1. Lucrecia agreed to put herself and more so Sephiroth up to the testing; by your own words, she is half to blame. The only one truly not at fault there was Sephiroth.

2. True - Hojo did kill off Gast and then took the information he learned about the Cetra and hid that from Shinra. Gast was trying to fight for his wife and daughter - in so, loosing the fight. By your own words, he is also responsible for his own death. He took a courageous move to hopefully provide time and distraction for Ifalna to flee with Aerith.

3. Shinra wanted a super human war machine; to do this, it was required to find and experiment on humans - though as far as I know, we do not have any concrete proof of an order of such coming from Shinra's president. Still, he had to have known about it because of what is revealed in Dirge of Cerberus. In this, Shinra himself is also at fault, by your own words.

Okay, we disagree, and yes, that's fine. I don't have qualms there. I just feel things are never black and white in life - and these games are creations of human beings, and undoubtably, this scenario is going to come down into the story - whether they are conscious of it or not.

And no. I am in no way sticking up for Hitler. I understand your analogy, though. There's a difference between compassion for one's life story (or possible, in this case) and understanding their feelings and condoning what they did. I have learned from my own experiences that the past does indeed make us who and what we are, and if that consciousness is not reached - it will affect the future, too.

I only presented another thought - my own - to this subject. I can't and don't disagree with what you, NM, and ME, are saying - Hojo did manipulate people, abuse his power as head of the science department as well as any other powers he had, and contributed in more deaths in this story than we are even aware of. I'm just thinking about how one get's there - 'cause unless they are lower astral demon scum or severely mentally ill, I cannot believe someone is born evil.

My opinion, though strong, was not stated in hopes of hurt.

[quote author=Brandless link=topic=374.msg29475#msg29475 date=1236833904]Good thing they have that retranslation on that one website rpggamer. I bet playing the game and comparing it to that script would reveal alot of things huh?[/quote]

I need to read this; I did book mark the site.