If Cloud was black..

[Makoeyes987]

But it's a human imagination, and you don't get ideas and images of humans without actually seeing one. The ideas don't just spawn out of nowhere.

And again, I said excluding aliens. Give me a break here.

And who's to say it doesn't matter? People like to analyze and look at things. It's the nature of analysis.

 

[Max Payne]

But it's a human imagination, and you don't get ideas and images of humans without actually seeing one. The ideas don't just spawn out of nowhere.

And again, I said excluding aliens. Give me a break here.

I didn't say anything about aliens. And a lot of these ideas and images don't come from looking at humans, they come from various factors in life, and some come from god knows where.

And who's to say it doesn't matter? People like to analyze and look at things. It's the nature of analysis.

If it doesn't factor into who the character is and what they do, their personality, likes, dislikes, behavior, then what does it matter?

 

[Makoeyes987]

A humanoid that does not have skin pigmentation seen here on planet Earth, is alien. Either from space or alien in regards to reality. I'm not talking about that. Clearly characters that look like that have no real basis in looks, in regards to races here in reality.

But appearance choice means a lot in character design. That's a valid type of analysis as well. It's not just about whats inside.

 

[Max Payne]

A humanoid that does not have skin pigmentation seen here on planet Earth, is alien. Either from space or alien in regards to reality. I'm not talking about that. Clearly characters that look like that have no real basis in looks, in regards to races here in reality.

Mutants, monsters, they're aliens even though they're residents from earth? Baaaaah. Alien refers to something outside the norm, that isn't typical, and the type of fiction and the world these creatures reside on determines what is and isn't an alien.

But appearance choice means a lot in character design. That's a valid type of analysis as well. It's not just about whats inside.

Yeah, and what's outside is meant to represent the person inside. The whole basis of character design is for everything to have a reason for being a part of the character(at least that's what I was taught).

But what is the reason for him having brown skin? They never give a reason for it, it never factors into who he is. So why should it matter?

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

....Only black people say that?

Did I say that? No, in fact I said this:

Not because black people do that, but because Square thinks black people do that.

Referencing SE's use of a stereotype does not mean that I myself believe in the stereotype. It means that I believe SE was using a stereotype.

Again, explain the coincidence that only the black character says things like, "Shit! You bustin' up my rhythm!" if SE was not stereotyping black people.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm pretty sure a green woman, is outside the norm

I'm speaking of alien in terms of reality. Baaaah to you.

And it matters because its an aesthetic choice that people feel to discuss and look at. People are curious creatures that like to discuss things.

@Ravynne

I explained it because SE and the exact same character designer are able to show black people who DON'T just say that. I've given plenty of examples of non-urban black characters designed by Nomura and SE. So no, they don't just think black people do that, nor do they stereotype. Saying they do that makes no sense.

 

[Max Payne]

I'm pretty sure a green woman, is outside the norm

I'm speaking of alien in terms of reality. Baaaah to you.

Reality is irrelevant in fantasy! it's only the basic building block which eventually gets ridiculous in it's own right.

And it matters because its an aesthetic choice that people feel to discuss and look at. People are curious creatures that like to discuss things.

An aesthetic choice clearly meant to make the character more imposing and striking, not about race, therefore it doesn't matter beyond such.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well the choice matters when we discuss the fact of whether or not SE portrays black people in a negative or stereotypical light. Then that aesthetic choice has relevance.

And yeah, reality is irrelevant to fantasy in regards to its contained universe. But it can be relevant at times in terms of critiquing their design choices.

 

[Max Payne]

Well the choice matters when we discuss the fact of whether or not SE portrays black people in a negative or stereotypical light. Then that aesthetic choice has relevance.

except he's never sated as black, doesn't bear the stereotypical appearance of africans, and very much looks little like any real person.

It has little relevance.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So now there are stereotypical features of africans? Wow!

No, they come in all shapes and colors, fucker. Bullshit again. He can conceivably be called black due to his appearance and skin color, just as well as any other ethnicity. The point is, is that he's not portrayed as a stereotype.

Don't give me that "he doesn't look like a typical african/black person" shit because it's old and stupid.

 

[Max Payne]

So now there are stereotypical features of africans? Wow!

No, they come in all shapes and colors, fucker. Bullshit again. He can conceivably be called black due to his appearance and skin color, just as well as any other ethnicity. The point is, is that he's not portrayed as a stereotype.

Don't give me that "he doesn't look like a typical african/black person" shit because it's old and stupid.

What the fuck? Are you stupid or something? There are features common among africans that recur quite often and that's a fucking fact. If you think that's bullshit you're on something. They come in all shapes and sizes, but there are shapes that are more common.

There's no reason to assume the guy is black other than his somewhat dark skin tone, which is common among many different races and peoples. There is no reason at all to assume he's black. None.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Just because there are some commonalities doesn't mean when someone doesn't have them they are not that ethnicity. Are YOU on something? FFS, that's like saying that unless they're dark brown, have big lips, and big noses, they aren't of African decent. Bullshit. No, just because he doesn't have kinky hair, doesn't mean he's not black. Again, blacks come in all varieties, just like Latinos, Cubans, Indians, and the like. You can't fucking pigeonhole an ethnicity. People are not Pokemonz.

Yeah, you can assume he's black based on his skin color conforming to the attributes of a black person. What the fuck are you on? I guess since Kiros could also be a dark skinned Cuban we shouldn't call him black either. Because there's no reason to assum he's black. None.

 

[Max Payne]

Just because there are some commonalities doesn't mean when someone doesn't have them they are not that ethnicity. Are YOU on something? FFS, that's like saying that unless they're dark brown, have big lips, and big noses, they aren't of African decent. Bullshit. No, just because he doesn't have kinky hair, doesn't mean he's not black. Again, blacks come in all varieties, just like Latinos, Cubans, Indians, and the like. You can't fucking pigeonhole an ethnicity. People are not Pokemonz.

Oh my god, you're crazy. No one said that, at all. You are completely overreacting like a little kid. I said it's one of the reasons we can assume that he isn't, not that it's the definitive factor.

Yeah, you can assume he's black based on his skin color conforming to the attributes of a black person. What the fuck are you on? I guess since Kiros could also be a dark skinned Cuban we shouldn't call him black either. Because there's no reason to assum he's black. None.

Of course you can assume, but that's all it is. There's no other reason to believe he is. Same goes for Kiros. Therefore you can't make a big deal about it. There's no reason to immediately come to the conclusion he's black, and it doesn't factor into who he is or his story. His skin is more yellow than anything anyway.

It's still irrelevant, and doesn't mean anything in the end.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh fuck off. If you're going to say on one hand its one of the reasons, and then say its not the definitive factor, then why the fuck are you saying you can't say that he's black? If its not the definitive factor in judgment then you can still base it off another factor. Get over it.

The relevance is in regards to the question, damnit. Are you arguing for agument's sake? It's a more than reasonable conclusion to draw if looking for black character portrayals, which is the topic of this thread. By your logic, no ethnicities at all exist. If they're black, and they meet the look and requirements for said black characters, then yes. You can safely reason that they're black.

I guess by your logic we can't call Cloud Japanese or Barret black.

 

[Max Payne]

Oh fuck off. If you're going to say on one hand its one of the reasons, and then say its not the definitive factor, then why the fuck are you saying you can't say that he's black? If its not the definitive factor in judgment then you can still base it off another factor. Get over it.

You're being stupid now. I said it's never stated, so there's no point in going on about it.

The relevance is in regards to the question, damnit. Are you arguing for agument's sake? It's a more than reasonable conclusion to draw if looking for black character portrayals, which is the topic of this thread. By your logic, no ethnicities at all exist. If they're black, and they meet the look and requirements for said black characters, then yes. You can safely reason that they're black.

He meets the look requirements for several other races to, why do you jump to him being black automatically? And it still doesn't matter.

There's no reason to assume he's black over any other race.

I guess by your logic we can't call Cloud Japanese or Barret black.

This is stupid in so many ways.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because the fucking topic was about black people, genius. If someone wanted to say Indian, you could say Xemnas also looks Indian. Stfu stupid

If you're gonna hold finding a black character to a ridiculously high burden of proof, then the same goes for any other ethnicity as well, which leaves us with not being able to find any tangible proof of ANY fucking ethnicity in a fantasy setting. Its circular bullshit. There's no point in thinking that way.

 

[Cthulhu]

I guess by your logic we can't call Cloud Japanese or Barret black.

Cloud isn't Wapanese, he's from Nibelheim. Barret isn't black, since there's no Africa in the world of FFVII. Or other black people, for that matter (minus one or two exceptions to the rule). He just happens to have a dark skin tone.

You guys are taking this far too srsly, imho, . Or, to be more precise, each other. I'd swear you guys were in love, . fgts.

Also, I'm more of a blacker than the fellow whose picture you posted earlier.

 

[Max Payne]

Because the fucking topic was about black people, genius. If someone wanted to say Indian, you could say Xemnas also looks Indian. Stfu stupid

But he's not definitively black, so how is he even relevant?

If you're gonna hold finding a black character to a ridiculously high burden of proof, then the same goes for any other ethnicity as well, which leaves us with not being able to find any tangible proof of ANY fucking ethnicity in a fantasy setting. Its circular bullshit. There's no point in thinking that way.

Jesus christ this is stupid. There's no reason to go on about anyone ethnicity when you don't know what it is. Unless stated otherwise there's no point to any of that shit, and you're just making a bunch of meaningless assumptions that serve no purpose at all.

 

[Makoeyes987]

We're not talking about their ethnicities within the game you tentacle monster cosmic horror of hell. We're speaking of the design aesthetic that resembles their equivalent here in reality. They weren't created in a vacuum.

Human characters in fantasy resemble human characters in reality because they are inspired by said humans. It's reality.

And isn't that what a message board is for? Serious discussion? I'm having fun

@Dacon

Oh stfu. People clearly ask because they like to discuss it. You're not gonna tell or make anyone NOT think about it, nor are you gonna stop people from thinking about it or discussing it with your ridiculously convoluted burdens of proof in proving something. Anyone with an eye and understanding of people can spot what a character's potential ethnic foundation may be. Even if they're from a fantasy setting. If you think its stupid then why the hell did you wander in here and start posting?

 

[Max Payne]

I never said that people can't talk about it or discuss it, that doesn't make it anymore irrelevant in the context of the game itself.

And there's nothing convoluted about saying that jumping to one conclusion automatically when there's several other answers that are just as applicable is pointless. Because it is. You're not anymore right than anyone else when the media in question never specifies, or makes a point about it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You said it was stupid going on about ethnicities in a fantasy setting. So quit slagging the people who brought it up and discussed it. No one said race was relevant to the actual game. We were talking about..if SE showed black people as stereotypes.

No, its convoluted because you're saying we can't call a character black when they have black skin. Yeah, they can be other things, but they also can be black. That doesn't minimize or change that fact at all. Barret could be a dark skinned middle easter person from North Africa. Cloud could be a white guy.

It's not jumping to conclusions. It's just saying what they could be based on common sense. By your logic then there are no black people in Final Fantasy.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I explained it because SE and the exact same character designer are able to show black people who DON'T just say that. I've given plenty of examples of non-urban black characters designed by Nomura and SE. So no, they don't just think black people do that, nor do they stereotype. Saying they do that makes no sense.

Well then it's also worth mentioning that those other characters you gave examples of were created after FF7, as far as I know. It's possible that their perceptions evolved. Or that they were created by different teams with different perceptions. Either way, Cloud and Barret were created by the same team at the same general time, so I stand by my belief that if they had made Cloud black they would have felt compelled to assign him many of the same stereotypical "black" attributes that they assigned to Barret.

Barret isn't black, since there's no Africa in the world of FFVII.

That's retarded. He didn't say he was African. He said black. Black refers to a color, not a place (even though the correct color would be brown, the term "black" still refers to someone of dark skin pigmentation and not the location on Earth where they are decended from). Next you're going to say that grass isn't green in Nibelheim because there's no Ireland on Gaia?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well General Leo in FFVI came before Barret, and Amano clearly designed him to resemble a black person in reality. So again, I don't think you could say SE thinks of black people stereotypically.

And the same character of Kiros, Donna, and Xehanort did Barret. I'm not sure why their perceptions would have changed or evolved. If we look at their consistency and history, Nomura doesn't design black people to be stereotypes. I don't see why the fact Barret is urban as a character, automatically puts him in the stereotype box. As I've said before, making a black urban character isn't an automatic racefail decision. It can be done. It isn't taboo.

 

[Max Payne]

You said it was stupid going on about ethnicities in a fantasy setting. So quit slagging the people who brought it up and discussed it. No one said race was relevant to the actual game. We were talking about..if SE showed black people as stereotypes.

You're the one taking small comments and blowing them way out of proportion like it's something important, and the only person slagging here is you. You're completely freaking out over little things.

No, its convoluted because you're saying we can't call a character black when they have black skin. Yeah, they can be other things, but they also can be black. That doesn't minimize or change that fact at all. Barret could be a dark skinned middle easter person from North Africa. Cloud could be a white guy.

There's no fact at all to it. You're just making assumptions.

It's not convoluted at all, you're just taking something and over
complicating it. I didn't say you couldn't call him black, I'm saying there's no reason to jump to that conclusion when he can be so many other things as well, and behave as though that conclusion is a goddamn fact.

And Cloud is Japanese now?

It's not jumping to conclusions. It's just saying what they could be based on common sense.

Then don't freak out when someone says he might not be black because he could be something else.

By your logic then there are no black people in Final Fantasy.

There you go saying stupid inapplicable things again. I said it's pointless to make a big deal about races, not that there aren't any.

 

[Makoeyes987]

There's no fact in anything. But there's common sense in terms of analysis. I'm not freaking out, I'm just pointing out how ridiculous it is to say you can't call someone black because they could be something else. I never once said that they couldn't. I said before that Xemnas could also pass as Indian. But hell, whatever, I'm bored now and I'll be getting off from work soon, so

No one's making "a big deal about races." We're just talking about it.