Ifalna: Did she escape with Gast from ShinRa, or meet him separately?

Lioneh

the cake is a lie.
AKA
Well, just Lioneh usually. Or Ly. Whichever. :)
Yes. I know I've just jumped back on here randomly. Mostly, I lurk.

Anyway. Back to the point. I'm very confused as to whether or not Ifalna was captured by ShinRa before Gast left ShinRa for good to pursue his own research. Most sources seem to imply that the two meet separately after Gast left, but the Crisis Core Complete Guide keywords seem to state that Gast helped Ifalna escape ShinRa when he left, therefore implying they had captured her previously whilst the Jenova Project was first taking place.

Is this a dumb question on my part or some stupid retcon/plot change done by Square Enix? :monster:
 

Kobato

Pro Adventurer
From memory Hojo came into Gast's house and shot him. Ifalna and baby Aerith got abducted then.

Since Hojo shot Gast's camera ( he was filming baby Aerith at the time ) it's hard to tell what happened. From memory all you hear is a gunshot and the camera crashing.

Gast was interested in studying Jenova and the weapons while he was with Ifalna and when Aerith was born, they focused on her instead.

I could be wrong with this though xD

Oh and no it's not a silly question, though have you played the original FFVII ? Because it sounds like you haven't and well, it's a amazing game that shouldn't be left out of your life. c:

 

Lioneh

the cake is a lie.
AKA
Well, just Lioneh usually. Or Ly. Whichever. :)
Eek. I think you misinterpreted my question a tad there. I'm just confused as to whether Ifalna was being held captive in ShinRa before she and Gast met and BEFORE all the events in Icicle Inn. Natually, one would assume not, [I mean, why the heck would they bother using Jenova to create an Ancient if they had an Ancient right there? Unless she was captured for some other reason and they didn't know she was an Ancient].

The only reason I ask for clarification is because the Wikia article states 'the keywords section of the Crisis Core Complete Guide[1] states that Gast helped Ifalna escape Shinra Electric Power Company the time he quit the company.'

The keyword entry on Professor Gast then says 'however, as the project was under way he [Gast] realized that Jenova was not an Ancient, and racked with guilt over his misguided research he deserted Shinra. After that he settles in the Icicle Lodge with Ifalna, who escaped with him, and she gives birth to Aerith.'

These seem to imply that ShinRa held Ifalna captive before Gast even left the company in the first place.

...am I making any sense at all? :lol:

[And...just to clarify, I have owned, loved and played FFVII to bits. But to be fair, my question probably didn't make too much sense before].
 

Fangu

Great Old One
^ This probably has very much to do with the confusion.

These seem to imply that ShinRa held Ifalna captive before Gast even left the company in the first place.
Well, isn't it stated in VII that Gast was a Shinra scientist? So whether he joined before Ifalna was captured or after, or left before her capture or after -- I think the canon is that he was working with her (as in on 'the Ifalna project'), and at some point she went AWOL to Icicle village, and we know he was there with her. Chances he helped her escape would be large. She must have had some help on the inside anyway.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Without a few more details, this could be a continuity flub, or just bad wording. You can still escape if you've never been caught- merely pursued.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Where was it stated she met Gast separately? I always thought he took her with him. Though I never took it as "helped her escape" he was in charge of Cetra research and so he took the subject with him then went AWOL.

How would Hojo know to come for her if they had just met after he left? What did Crisis Core "fuck up" here?
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Where was it stated she met Gast separately? I always thought he took her with him. Though I never took it as "helped her escape" he was in charge of Cetra research and so he took the subject with him then went AWOL.

How would Hojo know to come for her if they had just met after he left? What did Crisis Core "fuck up" here?

Cause Gast when we see him is like "so a couple of years back I worked at Shinra and thought Jenova was an Ancient, now I know I fucked up. THIS is an Ancient."

I got the idea that he knew this because Ifalna told him and clearly Shinra never got it straight that Jenova wasn't an Ancient. It's possible that Ifalna was just keeping it to herself whilst in Shinra the first time around too but why and how would she even end up captured by Shinra, I get that Gast led them to her the second time around but the first time around they have nothing but false Cetra info to go on. Why would Shinra bother with the Jenova project to try and recreate Cetra to lead them to the promised Land if they already had a living Ancient in custody?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I'm with Minato on this. Unlike Red XIII, Shin-Ra has no reason to capture a random, ordinary-looking woman who looks nothing like the Cetra sample they think they already have sitting in storage.

And there'd be no reason to go the complex fetus-injection route of creating a new one using cell samples from the frozen tentacly, winged thing when they have a talking, walking warm sample who just needs a little bump and grind to provide them with more of her kind.

Where was it stated she met Gast separately? I always thought he took her with him. Though I never took it as "helped her escape" he was in charge of Cetra research and so he took the subject with him then went AWOL.

How would Hojo know to come for her if they had just met after he left? What did Crisis Core "fuck up" here?

Well, Hojo says he had to search for them, though he implies that he'd known where they were for quite some time, and just waited for nature to take its course so that he could get both Ifalna and a hybrid:

Gast
Who could that--I was just about to...
Damn!!
How dare they intrude on our 'private time' together!


Ifalna
I'll send them away.
Yes, at once!!
Who the devil?
She goes to the door and opens it.
It, it's them!!

Hojo
Heh, heh, heh...... I've been searching for you, Ifalna... or should I say, Cetra!
Long time no see, Professor Gast!

Gast
Hojo... How did you know?

Hojo
Believe me, I had to turn over a stone or two to find you.
Two years I waited... That's how much I wanted this new sample...... Ha, ha, ha.

This bit doesn't make it terribly clear whether Hojo and Ifalna had met prior to this, though he does know her name and she knows it's "them," so eluding Shin-Ra doesn't seem altogether new to her either.

That being said, as we went over above, it makes no sense for them to have bothered with JENOVA if they already had Ifalna.

Also, the Ultimania Omega mentions that Ifalna was a local of Icicle Inn. On pg. 210, it says that Gast left Shin-Ra and moved his research to Icicle Inn. This is the next line after: 本当の古代種の生き残りである地元の女性イファルナと知り合い、聞き取り調査を開始した彼は、古代種の歴史をはじめジェノバの擬態能力やウェポン(→P.215)など、神羅も知らない事実いたどり着く。

"He begins to interview Ifalna -- an acquaintance and local woman who was a survivor of the true Ancients -- learning of JENOVA's mimicry ability and the WEAPONs, among other details in the history of the Ancients that were also unknown to Shin-Ra."

Granted, there's wiggle room there since it doesn't seem to explicitly say that Gast met her at Icicle Inn, rather than at Shin-Ra, but I'd say it seems implied. For that matter, if she were a local of Icicle Inn, were kidnapped there, and then escaped from Shin-Ra, it would be rather stupid to go right back where she was kidnapped from and expect to avoid recapture.

Of course, Crisis Core did outright retcon the bit of the UO where it says Aerith met Zack while selling flowers, so who knows if it even matters what the UO had to say on Ifalna and Gast's meeting place. At this point, the Compilation has all but removed Gast from ever even touching the JENOVA Project.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
tres you rotten slag stop stealing the useful things i was going to say

本当の古代種の生き残りである地元の女性イファルナと知り合い、聞き取り調査を開始した彼は、古代種の歴史をはじめジェノバの擬態能力やウェポン(→P.215)など、神羅も知らない事実いたどり着く。

"He begins to interview Ifalna -- an acquaintance and local woman who was a survivor of the true Ancients
Acquaintance kind of sounds like he already knew her, rather than he meets her there? (Not that I'm saying that's what happened; the way I'm reading the sentence is that he became acquainted to/got to know this local woman who was already there before he arrived.)

There's several of these little details that later Compilation titles have strayed from (like details about Lucrecia's story in DC or the above-mentioned CC thing with Zack and Aerith meeting). I'd say it'd be better waiting to see what Square does in the actual Compilation titles to come, but that would require 1) Square to actually bother working on one, and 2) remembering that Gast existed.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
tres you rotten slag stop stealing the useful things i was going to say

It's what I do. :monster:

hito said:
Acquaintance kind of sounds like he already knew her, rather than he meets her there? (Not that I'm saying that's what happened; the way I'm reading the sentence is that he became acquainted to/got to know this local woman who was already there before he arrived.)

I'm reading it the way you did. While "acquaintance" does make it sound like he already knew her (or it would in English, but -- as you've said before -- Japanese ain't English with squiggles), the fact that it even bothers to identify her as a local woman in this passage makes it seem more likely that it's saying he came to know her at this time.

hito said:
There's several of these little details that later Compilation titles have strayed from (like details about Lucrecia's story in DC or the above-mentioned CC thing with Zack and Aerith meeting).

With regard to Lucrecia, I assume you mean the bits on pg. 47 of the UO where 1) it says she became disfigured (what?), and 2) where Vincent confronted Hojo due to her disappearance, while in DC she was still around at that time -- and walks into the room after Hojo shoots him, in fact. Those changes are especially confusing since DC leaves us with no explanation for why Vincent would be shouting at Hojo about "How could you let this happen?!"

hito said:
I'd say it'd be better waiting to see what Square does in the actual Compilation titles to come, but that would require 1) Square to actually bother working on one, and 2) remembering that Gast existed.

At this point, it seems like we're waiting for them to remember that the Compilation itself exists.
 

Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
As everyone else has already stated...

Gast met Ilfana in the Icicle Lodge area, near the glacier.

Ilfana was kidnapped with Aerith by Shinra soldiers led by Hojo, after they killed Gast for resisting.

Somehow, Ilfana and Aerith escaped Shinra's hold years later; but, Ilfana was mortally wounded and died shortly there after.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
I'm reading it the way you did. While "acquaintance" does make it sound like he already knew her (or it would in English, but -- as you've said before -- Japanese ain't English with squiggles), the fact that it even bothers to identify her as a local woman in this passage makes it seem more likely that it's saying he came to know her at this time.
But she could have been a local woman from Icicle who Shinra captured and then they ran off together back to her hometown!

Have you learnt nothing of twisting things to suit yourself after all these years? :awesome:

With regard to Lucrecia, I assume you mean the bits on pg. 47 of the UO where 1) it says she became disfigured (what?), and 2) where Vincent confronted Hojo due to her disappearance, while in DC she was still around at that time -- and walks into the room after Hojo shoots him, in fact. Those changes are especially confusing since DC leaves us with no explanation for why Vincent would be shouting at Hojo about "How could you let this happen?!"
Yeah, those things.

I thought mutated Lucrecia sounded like a more interesting version of the story. But then they'd have to make 2 (two!) different models for her and she wouldn't be as pretty anymore.

At this point, it seems like we're waiting for them to remember that the Compilation itself exists.
Novels they just put out there under the cover of darkness aren't good enough for you? :awesome:
 

JayM

Angry Lesbian
FWIW, while I'm in agreement with what folks have said already re: what we're given in canon, I also want to say that from a characterization standpoint, I vastly prefer Gast meeting her at Icicle Inn.

I mean, the fact that he's involved in the JENOVA Project at all makes him sort of a shitty person, but IMO he becomes downright villainous if you think he escaped with one of ShinRa's specimens--and it wasn't the small helpless child.

If that makes sense. I'm tired so the phrasing might be completely incomprehensible. :monster:
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Yeah, those things.

I thought mutated Lucrecia sounded like a more interesting version of the story. But then they'd have to make 2 (two!) different models for her and she wouldn't be as pretty anymore.

I just scrub that one as Vincent's memory being a bit fuzzy/ idealized/ fucked up.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
"Heh, heh, heh...... I've been searching for you, Ifalna... or should I say, Cetra!"

This sounds to me like Hojo and Ifalna had met, but he didn't know she was a Cetra before she absconded with Gast. Perhaps when Gast discovered her true nature he fled with her to Icicle Inn.

MAYBE IFALNA WAS A SHINRA EMPLOYEE!!!

I can smell a new compilation entry and our lost dollars already.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
But she could have been a local woman from Icicle who Shinra captured and then they ran off together back to her hometown!

Have you learnt nothing of twisting things to suit yourself after all these years? :awesome:

If I'm going to twist things to suit myself, I hope I'll come up with a better plan than "Let's head right back to where you were kidnapped! I bet they'd never look for us there!" :monster:

hito said:
Yeah, those things.

I thought mutated Lucrecia sounded like a more interesting version of the story. But then they'd have to make 2 (two!) different models for her and she wouldn't be as pretty anymore.

Well, both of those things are just plain unacceptable. How silly of us to expect a little effort.

hito said:
Novels they just put out there under the cover of darkness aren't good enough for you? :awesome:

Poor SE. No matter how hard they (don't) try, they just can never make us be satisfied.

FWIW, while I'm in agreement with what folks have said already re: what we're given in canon, I also want to say that from a characterization standpoint, I vastly prefer Gast meeting her at Icicle Inn.

I mean, the fact that he's involved in the JENOVA Project at all makes him sort of a shitty person, but IMO he becomes downright villainous if you think he escaped with one of ShinRa's specimens--and it wasn't the small helpless child.

Well, going by this notion of him espcaing with Ifalna, it would have been before Aerith was born. Ifalna would be escaping from Shin-Ra twice with this new information. :monster:

I guess in a world where Don Corneo can come back ("Because you demanded it!" [/tagline off the cover of any issue of any Marvel comic in the 90s]), that's not as absurd as it sounds.

I just scrub that one as Vincent's memory being a bit fuzzy/ idealized/ fucked up.

She still looks the same in that crystal in the present day, though. They just completely wiped away the whole mutation thing.
 

JayM

Angry Lesbian
Posting from phone but...I was actually talking about bebbe!Seph, not bebbe!Aeris. Just to say. :)
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Ah, okay. Good point. I don't remember if it was ever said whether he resigned before or after Sephiroth's birth, but, yeah, the shit that went wrong with Lucrecia would make for a good wake-up call that led to him discovering his conscience.

Of course, the way the Compilation has completely sidelined him, one gets the impression now that they're pushing the idea that he left before. He really seemed to have a larger role in the original, but Hojo is now credited completely for Sephiroth while Hollander is credited for Genesis and Angeal.

It's like they're removing Gast from ever having any involvement in the human experimentation side of things, when it's guilt over that which is the stated reason for him resigning in the first place.

SE is so embarrassingly bad at consistency.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Sephiroth's near-hero-worship of Gast in VII kind of implies to me that he either never met Gast, or if he did he was still very young. So including him as a character with a role in Crisis Core probably would have been tough. However, I do wholeheartedly agree that his complete lack of even casual mention is baffling. The man was in charge of the freaking Jenova Project.
 

JayM

Angry Lesbian
Well, in the Nibelheim flashback in the original game Sephiroth's all like
Professor Gast... Why didn't you tell me anything?.... why did you die?
So it's been my headcanon for a long time that Gast left when Sephiroth was a little kid, old enough to have talked with him, that in fact seeing Sephiroth grow cognizant (and having the fact driven home that it was a PERSON they were experimenting on) was part of what pushed him to leave. The ages fit; Seph's only five or six years older than Aeris according to the Crisis Core timeline, IIRC.

And SE doesn't ever retcon anything from Nibelheim. :monster: So I'm sure there's a logical explanation why Gast wasn't present in any of the flashbacks in DoC, I'm sure they didn't just forget about him or anything, really.

Also I'm not bitter about this at all. :desu:
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
I'm sure they just lost all the concept material on Gast and couldn't find enough fanart to base a new design on :sadpanda:
 

JayM

Angry Lesbian
Might be for the best. If he was pretty there'd be a whole legion of fans claiming HE was Seph's real father.

He probably looks like Gackt anyway. :desu:
 

minimosey

Pro Adventurer
Think Sephiroth would be roughly 7 years older than Aerith. Vincent's been in his coffin 30 years, Aerith is 22-about-to-turn-23-but-ack!katana.

Hojo waited two years for Aerith to be born. (That's actually some patience, considering Gast was just going "herp-derp/INTERVIEW" with the woman. Hojo clearly had lost that patience by the time he had Aerith and Red XIII.) So assuming it didn't take extraordinarily long for Gast to find Ifalna--which it seemed they might have had some contact if he already knew something was wrong?--that'd place him at leaving when Sephiroth was 5.

The fact that he didn't appear in Dirge is so messed up.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I looked through the CC Complete Guide Keyword translations we have on the site here. They say that Gast left Shin-Ra in 1980 (27 years before FFVII), and that Hollander and Hojo competed for his position. Hollander initially had the title, but it was taken from him and given to Hojo after Project S was determined to be more successful than Project G.

We know from the official timelines that Sephiroth was born "25-30 years" before FFVII, so the latest he could have been born is 1982. Seemingly, the earliest he coudl have been born is 1980.

From this information we can conclude the following:
-Gast probably never met Sephiroth
-Sephiroth is 27, at the oldest
-Since Aerith was born in 1985, the two years Hojo waited either means that Gast met Ifalna in 1983 (maybe late 1982), or -- if we're to take seriously the notion that he escaped with Ifalna -- Hojo didn't locate them until then, but waited two additional years for them to produce Aerith


As for Vincent, according to the Ultimania Omega, he's been in the coffin for approximately 23 years.


Of course, given how terrible Square has proven themselves to be at plotting out the timeline otherwise, maybe we should take all of this with a pound of salt.
 
Top Bottom