Incest/paedophilia/murder/Holocaust-denial advocate goes off his meds (split out of Iran thread)

[Ⓐaron]

How many innocent people have died in this country's short life?

That's the wrong question to ask. The correct question is, "How many innocent people have died in this country's short life for expressing free speech?"

And since I've studied American history, I can safely say the answer isn't zero, but because people unlike you actually gave a shit and stood up for human rights, they were able to push the system to the point where free speech actually became a protected right, to the extent where our speech laws are now the freest in the world. If people had just fucking given up and said,

A person dying won't change everything.

Then nothing would have changed and we'd all still be living under absolute monarchy.

So he's a symbol? That's different. A person dying is like a soldier dying in a war...it really is irrelevant to the overall scheme.

No it fucking isn't. Just because you're unable to see the big picture that everyone on this planet is interconnected doesn't mean that individual lives and deaths don't matter. Again, you sound like a fucking comic book villain.

Amazing how human beings both glorify and demonize death to cause more death.

How the hell is fighting for free speech and basic human dignity at all reducible to "causing more death"?

Better that then getting killed over absolutely nothing. That happens quite a bit. Why aren't you outraged over that?

Please don't patronise me with your condescending assumptions. I'm outraged every time a person dies for an unjust cause. Injustice should be fought wherever it occurs.

I've already said this. Morals are subjective. I have different ones than you or Dacon. Dacon seems unable to handle this.

Some morals are not fucking subjective, like the value of individual human rights. Anyone who seriously doesn't think that the death of an innocent child is worthy of being upset over apparently lacks the basic capacity for empathy that makes the rest of us human.

 

[Munatik]

No. It's just being shown that it's not that significant an event. My intial point here was that unless Iran is experiencing an organized revolution, they're not that important. And Dacon came out saying a child died. That's not a valid counter-point. That's a blatant moral argument where you place a child's life above others and I don't much care for it.

Shown where? You can't be arsed to care, so therefore others shouldn't? No fucking thank you.

And try telling it to the mother, the child's family, and the community that it wasn't a significant fucking event. The fact that even one person died in the protests due to the government shooting into the unarmed crowds is significant because-- damn. I shouldn't even have to tell you. Again, if you spent as much time reviewing the information in this thread as you have spouting off the most insensitive and frighteningly cold opinions I've read in a while, then we wouldn't be having this exchange.

Also, where on earth in the conversation did Dacon put a child's life above others?

And it hasn't happened yet so...your point is nulla nd void.

You stated that governments don't magically collaspe, yet now you're assuming that it should happen magically? Contradict yourself much?

Again, go back and reread. Iran has already deeply changed because of the actions of its government.

And how is getting hysterical over someone disagreeing with you adult? It's very chi,ldish to me.

Lawl. Yeah, I'm hysterical that someone like you disagrees with me. I mean, I'm thrilled to not be anything like you on the subject of basic human dignity.

 

[Nikkolas]

I have plenty of morals. I'm upset about people dying but I accept it happens.

What I said about Iran is valid. They are not of real importance to us at this point. They are neither an ally nor a menace. So why waste our time with them when we have a shitload of problems here and a threat in North Korea?

 

[Ⓐaron]

I care, even though I've just spent ten posts telling you guys how much I didn't care! But seriously, I have morals and stuff, no joke!

 

[Max Payne]

I have plenty of morals. I'm upset about people dying but I accept it happens.

You just demonstrated that you aren't upset in the least.

What I said about Iran is valid. They are not of real importance to us at this point.

Complete horseshit.

They are neither an ally nor a menace. So why waste our time with them when we have a shitload of problems here and a threat in North Korea?

Iran is one of the most powerful countries in the world and has a shitload of oil which the entire world relies on, it's leaders spew anti American crap every chance they get and do their best to turn their people against us.

Iran has just as much capability of causing us trouble.

 

[Ryushikaze]

To the idea of 'a child dying doesn't make it worse', the fact that this child is now seen as an emblem of the resistance and people are screaming in a very Spartacus way that they are also her all go to prove that her death has in fact made it worse.

She's given the movement a tragic figure. An icon to rally behind against the government.
So her death has definitely changed the situation.

And North Korea is a goddamn joke playing at being a petulant child.
Its 'threat' is nothing we can't handle with hours to spare and will only result in us having every reason and the full support to just wipe Kimmy off the map. Kim Jong Il is an attention whore, little more. If not for his daddy's propoganda machine, he'd be booted out by now.

 

[Munatik]

What I said about Iran is valid.

I'm incredibly dubious, because you evidently refuse to educate yourself about it. Ironically, based on your "morals" demonstrated in this thread, I can't be arsed to care anymore if you ever do decide to remove that head of yours from your ass.

 

[Nikkolas]

And try telling it to the mother, the child's family, and the community that it wasn't a significant fucking event. The fact that even one person died in the protests due to the government shooting into the unarmed crowds is significant because-- damn. I shouldn't even have to tell you. Again, if you spent as much time reviewing the information in this thread as you have spouting off the most insensitive and frighteningly cold opinions I've read in a while, then we wouldn't be having this exchange.

This reminds me of an interesting argument about laws in this country. About how judges sometimes bend the law because of their orn moral ideas and cut people breaks.

And personal connection to tragedy can blind people to reasona nd logic. I'm sure you can accept that at least.

And since I've studied American history, I can safely say the answer isn't zero, but because people unlike you actually gave a shit and stood up for human rights, they were able to push the system to the point where free speech actually became a protected right, to the extent where our speech laws are now the freest in the world. If people had just fucking given up and said,

Are you trying to say a single person dying caused the Revolutionary War and the spread of democracy?

No it fucking isn't. Just because you're unable to see the big picture that everyone on this planet is interconnected doesn't mean that individual lives and deaths don't matter. Again, you sound like a fucking comic book villain.

We're not all connected. A person dying in Belgium you'll never hear of doesn't effect you or I in the least.

How the hell is fighting for free speech "causing more death"?

We're talking about a potential revolution here. You expect ti to be bloodless or something?
Some morals are not fucking subjective, like the value of individual human rights. Anyone who seriously doesn't think that the death of an innocent child is worthy of being upset over apparently lacks the basic capacity for empathy that makes the rest of us human. [/quote]

This is very narrow-minded thinking.

 

[Max Payne]

This is very narrow-minded thinking. It's evident you're beyond reason.

Oh my fucking god.

HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHA.

 

[Nikkolas]

And North Korea is a goddamn joke playing at being a petulant child.
Its 'threat' is nothing we can't handle with hours to spare and will only result in us having every reason and the full support to just wipe Kimmy off the map. Kim Jong Il is an attention whore, little more. If not for his daddy's propoganda machine, he'd be booted out by now.

We're definitely not the kind of country to wipe anything off the map in this day and age.

And now it's time for bed. You all have fun and I'll see you tomorrow.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Are you trying to say a single person dying caused the Revolutionary War and the spread of democracy?

Nowhere did I even imply that, and you suggesting that I did just points out how intellectually disingenuous you're being. But, since you haven't even bothered reading the previous posts in this thread to correct your ignorant misconceptions about Iran, I don't feel particularly inclined to increase your historical literacy at this point. Try reading some Zinn.

We're not all connected. A person dying in Belgium you'll never hear of doesn't effect you or I in the least.

Apparently you've never heard of the idea of "six degrees of separation"? Or the fact that we all live in the same fucking ecosystem and interact with the same fucking resources? Just because we never hear of it doesn't mean it doesn't affect the world we live on. You're arguing that we're not directly connected, which is a straw man since I never argued otherwise. I said we're all interconnected. There's a clear difference.

We're talking about a potential revolution here. You expect ti to be bloodless or something?

No, but equating that with "death" is absurd. Death isn't the desired result. Freedom is the desired result. Freedom inevitably comes at a price, but pretending that freedom is meaningless is the kind of intellectual bunk you get from Jonah Goldberg types who try to pretend that white is black.

This is very narrow-minded thinking. It's evident you're beyond reason.

Lol, how is it "narrow-minded" or "beyond reason" to recognise that the foundation of human society is extending each other certain basic civil rights? You might want to take a look in the mirror before you attack others' reasoning.

 

[Nikkolas]

I see myself as quite open-minded. Right now, I'm indifferent to your beliefs. It neither upsets or inspires me. It's simply what you think and I accept that.

You on the other hand parade your own ideas as an absolute morality which is the biggext oxymoron possible.

And now I really do have to go. Nighty night.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Yeah I'm sorry for having basic empathy for others like the other 95% of the human populace (e.g. non-sociopaths) does. It doesn't make me "closed-minded," it makes me a human fucking being. Which is more than anyone will be willing to say for you after reading this thread.

 

[Max Payne]

I see myself as quite open-minded. Right now, I'm indifferent to your beliefs. It neither upsets or inspires me. It's simply what you think and I accept that.

You on the other hand parade your own ideas as an absolute morality which is the biggext oxymoron possible.

You're the one parading your inane apathy and indifference to the suffering of others as if it's the only acceptable frame of mind.

I quote you "it's pointless to care".

And you clearly had some sort of emotional reaction to this debate to feel the need to defend yourself and post your bizarre ideals again and again. Fool yourself into thinking you did if you want, but it's apparent to anyone with eyes.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm being apathetic, not apeshit. I don't want children to die but it happens. Whether it's natural causes or a serial killer or a brutal government, people will die. Getting upset won't change that and it might make it worse.



I see. I'm sure you were raised in a totalitarian 3rd world country then?
I care. I just don't see how a child dying somehow makes things more horrible.



And you sit there in, where was it, Texas? And you spew self-righteous crap about me not boo-hooing over some kid I don't know dying. I'm speaking logically and you're blinded by your arrogant morality. I said a child dying doesn't make things that much worse and that's a fact. It has nothing to do with me caring or not caring.

This is fucking hilarious coming from the guy who pissed vinegar at me saying I hoped 4kids would go out of business due to their shitty anime management. You bitched at me not taking into consideration or caring about the fact people would lose their jobs and not be able to support their families, but then you go on and say children being killed by repressive regimes is just natural and you're apathetic about it?

I smell the bullshit all the way from here.

Hopefully you'll be able to sleep off the stupidity and wannabe-Ulquiorra bullshit.

 

[Munatik]

I see myself as quite open-minded.

I see you as open-minded, too, but so open-minded that your brain mind has completely fallen out.

 

[Ryushikaze]

This reminds me of an interesting argument about laws in this country. About how judges sometimes bend the law because of their orn moral ideas and cut people breaks.

What is 'the law' is not always the essence of the law. To uphold a letter would not be to uphold the spirit, or be unconstitutional.

Are you trying to say a single person dying caused the Revolutionary War and the spread of democracy?

Caused? No. Jumpstarted? Shot heard round the world.

We're definitely not the kind of country to wipe anything off the map in this day and age.

No, we are. We're just extremely precise about what we wipe.

Hence why I said wipe Kimmy, not Korea.

 

[Part the Yngve]

How does a child dying make this any bigger? It's a government repressing opposition which is a very common occurance throughout most of history. Whatever demographic is hurt or killed is irrelevant. It's the numbers and most of all, organization.

A single death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic.

While not entirely relevant, any death is the problem, not the amount. We care becuase we want a better world for all of humanity.

Oh, I see, I bet you read Ayn Rand.

EDIT: I know he's said more ridiculous bullshit but others have pretty much torn this guy to shreds already fgj.

 

[Ⓐaron]

To be honest, even objectivists pretend to give a shit about individual human lives. This guy has no excuse.

 

[Nikkolas]

This is fucking hilarious coming from the guy who pissed vinegar at me saying I hoped 4kids would go out of business due to their shitty anime management. You bitched at me not taking into consideration or caring about the fact people would lose their jobs and not be able to support their families, but then you go on and say children being killed by repressive regimes is just natural and you're apathetic about it?

Our economy doesn't need another business going under. That's just obvious.
A few people dying in another region that is infamous for death of civilians isn't really big news. This is the Middle East ya know. It's how things are there and have been for longer than any of us have been alive.

While not entirely relevant, any death is the problem, not the amount. We care becuase we want a better world for all of humanity.

To many people, killing other humans will lead to a better world.
Kinda odd too that you'd use a quote from a monster like Stalin as your support for the value of human life.

But you know, I think we've all just gotten a bit riled up here. For instance, the claim that I have no morals is very untrue. Let me explain.

I've searched for a belief to put my heart in. I passed up religion because who here knows what happens after we die? Nobody. So I instead turned my attention to politics. I crossed the political spectrum and found out every person has their own ideas of how to benefit humankind. The fascists, the communists, all brancehs of them, the liberals...all of them think what they believe is the best way to govern us. So with so many different ideas, which one is right?

Answer is none of them. None are right or wrong.
Take any event in history and you'll find people who disagree on what happened there or what it meant. The Russian Revolution was my main point of interest and there are many conflicting accounts on whether it was a coup of intellectuals or actually a revolution. So how do people conclude different things based on the same event? Because of their beliefs. The proverb "history is written by thevictors" is very much true.

So how does this relate to morals? I view morals like I view politics...none are right or wrong. Because orals are the construct of human beings and human beings are flawed and imperfect. That's why morals are so different depending on where you are in history and in the world.

Let's take two quick issues I have with prevaling morality...murder and incest.
What's inherently wrong with either? Nothing. It's only context that makes them right or wrong. If a brother and sister who never met while growing up meet each other and fall in love and want to do it, more power to them. If a dad blows out a guy's braisn while the guy tries to hurt his family, good for him.

Yet I can find people right now who would swear up and down incest, murder and anything else you can name is always wrong. What makes what they say right and what I say wrong? Nothing.

More of my morality....I despiste any sort of bigotry. In fact I used to want anyone in a hate group arrested and hate groups outlawed. I gave up this idea though because that's merely enforcing my morals on others and thus saying my morals are right. But you all quite clearly show this is not the case. You think I'm as much of a monster as I think racists are.

So hwo does this all relate back to some kid dying and me not caring? It really doesn't. I can only be honest with you all and I just want you to be fully informed about me before you condem me again. It's clarification, not justification.
I can't pretend to care about something that has happened countless times through history.

Also The Man, death is rarely the desired result of anything. And yet it happens countless times in history. Simple fact of human natrue: people don't like to lose what they worked for. If these people fighting in Iran for freedom take over, their priority will not be the securing of freedom. It will be the solidation of their own power. Why? Obvious justification is that to spread freedom, they will have to make sure they stay in power. And so people will die.

But that's all i gotta say. As I said, this was merely me getting some closure by explaining myself to you all so you didn't run away with false impressions. If you at least understand me but still hate me, I can live with that.

 

[Max Payne]

 

[Cookie Monster]

Our economy doesn't need another business going under. That's just obvious.
A few people dying in another region that is infamous for death of civilians isn't really big news. This is the Middle East ya know. It's how things are there and have been for longer than any of us have been alive.



To many people, killing other humans will lead to a better world.
Kinda odd too that you'd use a quote from a monster like Stalin as your support for the value of human life.

But you know, I think we've all just gotten a bit riled up here. For instance, the claim that I have no morals is very untrue. Let me explain.

I've searched for a belief to put my heart in. I passed up religion because who here knows what happens after we die? Nobody. So I instead turned my attention to politics. I crossed the political spectrum and found out every person has their own ideas of how to benefit humankind. The fascists, the communists, all brancehs of them, the liberals...all of them think what they believe is the best way to govern us. So with so many different ideas, which one is right?

Answer is none of them. None are right or wrong.
Take any event in history and you'll find people who disagree on what happened there or what it meant. The Russian Revolution was my main point of interest and there are many conflicting accounts on whether it was a coup of intellectuals or actually a revolution. So how do people conclude different things based on the same event? Because of their beliefs. The proverb "history is written by thevictors" is very much true.

So how does this relate to morals? I view morals like I view politics...none are right or wrong. Because orals are the construct of human beings and human beings are flawed and imperfect. That's why morals are so different depending on where you are in history and in the world.

Let's take two quick issues I have with prevaling morality...murder and incest.
What's inherently wrong with either? Nothing. It's only context that makes them right or wrong. If a brother and sister who never met while growing up meet each other and fall in love and want to do it, more power to them. If a dad blows out a guy's braisn while the guy tries to hurt his family, good for him.

Yet I can find people right now who would swear up and down incest, murder and anything else you can name is always wrong. What makes what they say right and what I say wrong? Nothing.

More of my morality....I despiste any sort of bigotry. In fact I used to want anyone in a hate group arrested and hate groups outlawed. I gave up this idea though because that's merely enforcing my morals on others and thus saying my morals are right. But you all quite clearly show this is not the case. You think I'm as much of a monster as I think racists are.

So hwo does this all relate back to some kid dying and me not caring? It really doesn't. I can only be honest with you all and I just want you to be fully informed about me before you condem me again. It's clarification, not justification.
I can't pretend to care about something that has happened countless times through history.

Also The Man, death is rarely the desired result of anything. And yet it happens countless times in history. Simple fact of human natrue: people don't like to lose what they worked for. If these people fighting in Iran for freedom take over, their priority will not be the securing of freedom. It will be the solidation of their own power. Why? Obvious justification is that to spread freedom, they will have to make sure they stay in power. And so people will die.

But that's all i gotta say. As I said, this was merely me getting some closure by explaining myself to you all so you didn't run away with false impressions. If you at least understand me but still hate me, I can live with that.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The whole characterization of the killing of a woman by a government simply for peacefully and publicly voicing her dissent regarding the government isn't just 'a woman dying somewhere'

Nor is it a good sign that 'people dying in the middle east is common' is not seen by you as something to be vocally upset by.

And no, change does not have to come about through violence. In this case, it may have to, but it's hardly requisite in all walks.

And yet again, there's still a difference between the government killing its own citizens and people fighting in a war or revolution, and this bears the hallmark of the former, which may well spur the situation into the latter.

Seriously,

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Our economy doesn't need another business going under. That's just obvious.
A few people dying in another region that is infamous for death of civilians isn't really big news. This is the Middle East ya know. It's how things are there and have been for longer than any of us have been alive.

The fuck? Oh, so we're suppose to care more about some stupid business going under than the murder of innocent people?

....

And your morality viewpoint is entirely screwed, because you claim you view it all 'open-minded' yet come up with what you consider moral and immoral. The thing is that while tolerance is an important thing, it's not an acceptable thing when the "tolerating" is really letting people get away with shit. There are some universal evil and good deeds and they should be addressed accordingly.

 

[Arianna]

And your morality viewpoint is entirely screwed, because you claim you view it all 'open-minded' yet come up with what you consider moral and immoral. The thing is that while tolerance is an important thing, it's not an acceptable thing when the "tolerating" is really letting people get away with shit. There are some universal evil and good deeds and they should be addressed accordingly.

The only thing that gets me is that the United States keeps meddling in other countries' affairs. We patrol and police the world, trying to make it more like us, than really embracing diversity.

That said, I agree, there are some universal rights and wrongs. But, to each culture on how they will interpret those laws; also, how they will bring them into play. I'm not saying I like it, but I don't like the US policing everyone either.

To sum up: I don't support allowing people get away with stuff, but I don't support policing the world and forcing our 'democracy' down their throats. I think what's going on in Iran is wrong, but really - what can the rest of the world do? (No, seriously. What can the rest of the world do without shoving our beliefs down the Iranians' throats and allowing them to naturally choose their own course?)

Seriously, Iran has been a thorn in the side of the US since the late 70s (at least, silently). And, the revolution that happened then was because of the excesses that the Shah and upper classes took at the expense of the lower classes. Truly, religion was only - yet again - a pawn in the process.

As said before and will probably always be the truth: Change comes from within. If the Iranian people really want change, they will do what they can to bring it about. If their government is going to show itself as an ass - they will be treated as such, inside and outside of their boundaries. I pray that the reformists will win, but that is me; I don't want to see Iran ruined by war like Iraq has been.