Incest/paedophilia/murder/Holocaust-denial advocate goes off his meds (split out of Iran thread)

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Munatik

Beacause I am a puppet
#51
To sum up: I don't support allowing people get away with stuff, but I don't support policing the world and forcing our 'democracy' down their throats. I think what's going on in Iran is wrong, but really - what can the rest of the world do? (No, seriously. What can the rest of the world do without shoving our beliefs down the Iranians' throats and allowing them to naturally choose their own course?)
Hold on. We're not shoving our system down the Iranian's throats--the movement to establish and protect a true democracy came about not from the US, but 100% from ordinary Iranians. Although the pro-Iranian government tactics would like the world and its citizens to believe otherwise.

As a matter of fact, most reformists would probably hate being associated with the West, or would shun the misconception that their motives are in any way motivated by a desire to have that association.

But the US is also catching shit that we aren't interfering enough in Iran. Having earned a rep as world police, the US can't win no matter what stance it takes. Thankfully, Obama has been restrained and delicate for the moment (imo) and letting Iranians work out their internal crises on their own, despite the atrocities and charging people for the fucking bullets that kill their families.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#52
Nikkolas said:
Our economy doesn't need another business going under. That's just obvious.
A few people dying in another region that is infamous for death of civilians isn't really big news. This is the Middle East ya know. It's how things are there and have been for longer than any of us have been alive.
So its okay to bitch and cry over someone saying they wished a company folded for their shitty management, but when a child dies brutally, that's not big news, and just life.

You're full of so much shit, your eyes are brown. Hypocrisy. It's become you.

The fascists, the communists, all brancehs of them, the liberals...all of them think what they believe is the best way to govern us. So with so many different ideas, which one is right?

Answer is none of them. None are right or wrong.
So German and Italian despotic facists are no more politically wrong than liberal or Republicans here in the US because they just have their own idea of making the world better? Is that what you're fucking saying? Take your moral relativist bullshit out of here, please. If you're that incapable of finding a moral center for common sense and decency, then that's real sad for you.

Let's take two quick issues I have with prevaling morality...murder and incest.
What's inherently wrong with either? Nothing. It's only context that makes them right or wrong. If a brother and sister who never met while growing up meet each other and fall in love and want to do it, more power to them. If a dad blows out a guy's braisn while the guy tries to hurt his family, good for him.

Yet I can find people right now who would swear up and down incest, murder and anything else you can name is always wrong. What makes what they say right and what I say wrong? Nothing.
It's a fact of biology that inbreeding causes an increase in the frequency of homozygotes that result in deformations and birth defects. It has detrimental consequences to any baby born from the incestuous relationship....not to mention the terrible fucking implications of child abuse, since most incest involves an older man with a younger child. What you're saying is hardly the reality or the fact of the situation. There's a very definitive reason why incest taboo exists. It's biologically unsound and very abusive towards the children involved.

Killing in self defense isn't the same thing as outright murder. Surely you can tell the difference.

I can't pretend to care about something that has happened countless times through history.

Also The Man, death is rarely the desired result of anything. And yet it happens countless times in history. Simple fact of human natrue: people don't like to lose what they worked for. If these people fighting in Iran for freedom take over, their priority will not be the securing of freedom. It will be the solidation of their own power. Why? Obvious justification is that to spread freedom, they will have to make sure they stay in power. And so people will die.
Yet you demand someone empathize and be held accountable for wishing a corporation fall and people lose their jobs. You're spouting such contradicting nonsense.

If you're so incapable of having basic human empathy or appreciating the fact of why we care about the geopolitical consequences of this election in Iran, and how we feel solidarity with the people who are fighting for freedom and being killed for it. Then that's really sad. One of the fundamentals of being a balanced, and mentally healthy person is to be able to empathize with their fellow man, even if they aren't in the same situation. If you can't do that, then something's wrong.
 

Munatik

Beacause I am a puppet
#53
Let's take two quick issues I have with prevaling morality...murder and incest.
What's inherently wrong with either? Nothing.
By the way, I stopped reading here. You've clarified how astoundingly immature, uninformed and downright horrid your morals are. I refuse to acknowledge anything further beyond these sentences.
 
#54
By the way, I stopped reading here. You've clarified how astoundingly immature, uninformed and downright horrid your morals are. I refuse to acknowledge anything further beyond these sentences.
Oh please. Self-righteousness is boring.
So tell me since you think you know what's right and wrong. WHy is incest wrong? How two do cousins in the South fucking do anything that hurts anybody? Laws are in place to keep people from doing things that would hurt others, right? So how does two consenting adults who happen to share bloodlines having sex effect anyone?

The answer is it doesn't. Incest is like homosexuality; pesecuted and demonized for centuries by self-righteous people lik you. Whattwo people do in their own damn bedroom is their own business and they don't need a government operating on outdated morals to tell them what they can or can't do.


So its okay to bitch and cry over someone saying they wished a company folded for their shitty management, but when a child dies brutally, that's not big news, and just life.

You're full of so much shit, your eyes are brown. Hypocrisy. It's become you.
No Mak you're simply not understanding me.
A company going under HERE in our country with its bad economy is not good.
Innicent civilians dying in the Middle East is just another day there.

See the difference? One effects us at home, the other doesn't effect us at all.

You have tot hink big.

So German and Italian despotic facists are no more politically wrong than liberal or Republicans here in the US because they just have their own idea of making the world better? Is that what you're fucking saying?
Yep. Though I'm glad neither of our major parties are openly racist. There is a lot of classism and bigotry though.

It's a fact of biology that inbreeding causes an increase in the frequency of homozygotes that result in deformations and birth defects. It has detrimental consequences to any baby born from the incestuous relationship....
I never said they should have kids.


not to mention the terrible fucking implications of child abuse, since most incest involves an older man with a younger child.
Interesting claim. Any proof of it?

If you're so incapable of having basic human empathy or appreciating the fact of why we care about the geopolitical consequences of this election in Iran, and how we feel solidarity with the people who are fighting for freedom and being killed for it. Then that's really sad. One of the fundamentals of being a balanced, and mentally healthy person is to be able to empathize with their fellow man, even if they aren't in the same situation. If you can't do that, then something's wrong.
_________________
Well Mr. Balanced and Healthy human being, all a person can do is be honest. If I was less of a man I could lie to you all and say I care about something that happens everyday through most of our history. But I can't and won't.
But to say I lack empaty is like saying I lack morals. it's untrue. I'd be very sad if somebody I know had died. In fact I have been sad when family members died.
 

The Man

Great Old One
AKA
Aaron
#55
Oh please. Self-righteousness is boring.
An unintentionally ironic claim coming from someone whose entire series of posts in this thread has consisted of nothing but self-righteousness.

And... this is in response to you saying there's nothing wrong with murder. That's easily the single most absurd statement ever made on these boards.

So tell me since you think you know what's right and wrong. WHy is incest wrong? How two do cousins in the South fucking do anything that hurts anybody? Laws are in place to keep people from doing things that would hurt others, right? So how does two consenting adults who happen to share bloodlines having sex effect anyone?

The answer is it doesn't. Incest is like homosexuality; pesecuted and demonized for centuries by self-righteous people lik you. Whattwo people do in their own damn bedroom is their own business and they don't need a government operating on outdated morals to tell them what they can or can't do.
Incest is nothing like homosexuality. In the vast majority of documented cases of incest there is a power structure at play which has nothing to do with sexuality at all. There is simply no way family relationships can be considered comparable to relationships between two people with no family ties, because there are factors at play that have nothing to do with sex.

No Mak you're simply not understanding me.
A company going under HERE in our country with its bad economy is not good.
Innicent civilians dying in the Middle East is just another day there.

See the difference? One effects us at home, the other doesn't effect us at all.

You have tot hink big.
Ignoring the deaths of innocent civilians because "it's just another day there" is not anything I would qualify as "thinking big." It's actually hideously closed-minded, since it's just accepting the status quo for what it is and refusing to acknowledge the urgency of change.

Well Mr. Balanced and Healthy human being, all a person can do is be honest. If I was less of a man I could lie to you all and say I care about something that happens everyday through most of our history. But I can't and won't.
But to say I lack empaty is like saying I lack morals. it's untrue. I'd be very sad if somebody I know had died. In fact I have been sad when family members died.
So you've cried at family members' funerals, big deal. Empathy for strangers is what is required for a functional human being. Having no sympathy for people you've met doesn't make you "more of a man." If anything, it makes you less of one, since it strongly implies that your morality isn't developed enough to apply universal principles of right and wrong.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#56
Oh please. Self-righteousness is boring.
So tell me since you think you know what's right and wrong. WHy is incest wrong? How two do cousins in the South fucking do anything that hurts anybody? Laws are in place to keep people from doing things that would hurt others, right? So how does two consenting adults who happen to share bloodlines having sex effect anyone?
You neglect the fact that most child sexual abuse cases, are cases of incest, where the offender is related to the victim. 70% of sexual abuse victims are related by blood to the offender, so no..there isn't some poor, oppressed majority of poor cousins in love that want to fuck each other. It's mostly pedophiles or child molesters who are exploiting their family relationship to inflict dominance and harm over the family member.

Incest isn't part of the normal, healthy family dynamic. It more often than not, leads to abuse. If two adults for some bizarre reason feel like they want to kiss and they're cousins, that's their business, but the majority of incest is NOT between adults, and claiming so is a twisting of facts. It's between adults and children. It's fucking child abuse and trying to say incest is "harmless" is ignorant, absurd, and dishonest. Incest causes severe psychological trauma and shame in the victims.


The answer is it doesn't. Incest is like homosexuality; pesecuted and demonized for centuries by self-righteous people lik you. Whattwo people do in their own damn bedroom is their own business and they don't need a government operating on outdated morals to tell them what they can or can't do.
Except homosexuality doesn't directly lead to child abuse and molestation, are you fucking crazy? What two family members does in the bedroom ISN'T always their fucking business because it allows crazy ass people to be justified in raping little kids for their benefit, because "its just between family."


A company going under HERE in our country with its bad economy is not good.
Innicent civilians dying in the Middle East is just another day there.

See the difference? One effects us at home, the other doesn't effect us at all.
Except that's not what you fucking said, and you directly tried to appeal to the humane element of what that would do to people and their jobs.

You said:
Your wishing for thousands of people to lose their jobs also shows you are like the people on YouTube: blind fanboy.

No. It's a corporation and there's such a thing as a chain-of-command. Or do you think auto plant workers deserve to lose their job because their CEOs suck balls?
Sorry, I live in Detroit so the last bit is personal to me.

How capitalistic ie. selfish of you.
I guess business ethics is really an oxymoron.
You're full of shit. Or your empathy chip is fucked up.


Yep. Though I'm glad neither of our major parties are openly racist. There is a lot of classism and bigotry though.
...So you're saying that Democrats here in the US, are as bad as a political party who advocated the mass genocide of an entire ethnic race, in order to make their economy better and scapegoat all their problems on to? Are you fucking serious? They hold equal moral weight to you?

I've never met anyone as crazy you.



Interesting claim. Any proof of it?
Uh, how about all of the vast case studies and statistics done by the APA which you can find here, here, here, or here? Or why don't you just crack open an Abnormal Psychology or Dealing with Victims of Sexual Abuse text book? Do YOU have any proof to the contrary?


Well Mr. Balanced and Healthy human being, all a person can do is be honest. If I was less of a man I could lie to you all and say I care about something that happens everyday through most of our history. But I can't and won't.
But to say I lack empaty is like saying I lack morals. it's untrue. I'd be very sad if somebody I know had died. In fact I have been sad when family members died.
No, a person can also be decent, and good. You're already beyond less since you've apparently demonstrated you can't empathize at all with a person outside your sphere of existence. That's not healthy, or balanced at all. Hell, what you've just exhibited could be seen as criteria for an Antisocial Personality type. And that's pretty fucked up, to say the least.
 
#57
Incest is nothing like homosexuality. In the vast majority of documented cases of incest there is a power structure at play which has nothing to do with sexuality at all. There is simply no way family relationships can be considered comparable to relationships between two people with no family ties, because there are factors at play that have nothing to do with sex.
Then there's genetic sexual attraction and cases like this
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/129106.html

What you're saying is as much a stereotype as incest babies having flipper feet or whatever.

The fact is incest is as demonized as it is because of misguided morals, just like homosexuality was years ago.

And... this is in response to you saying there's nothing wrong with murder. That's easily the single most absurd statement ever made on these boards.
Except the taking of another person's life can do a lot of good things. So why is it inheretnly wrong?

So you've cried at family members' funerals, big deal. Empathy for strangers is what is required for a functional human being. Having no sympathy for people you've met doesn't make you "more of a man." If anything, it makes you less of one, since it strongly implies that your morality isn't developed enough to apply universal principles of right and wrong.
No one can judge what is universally right or wrong. Not me, not you, not anyone. That's my whole point here.

You neglect the fact that most child sexual abuse cases, are cases of incest, where the offender is related to the victim. 70% of sexual abuse victims are related by blood to the offender, so no..there isn't some poor, oppressed majority of poor cousins in love that want to fuck each other. It's mostly pedophiles or child molesters who are exploiting their family relationship to inflict dominance and harm over the family member.
And for all the cases that aren't like that? Oh I forgot, what you think is right and everything else is wrong. There is no such thing as grey areas.

Incest isn't part of the normal, healthy family dynamic. It more often than not, leads to abuse. If two adults for some bizarre reason feel like they want to kiss and they're cousins, that's their business, but the majority of incest is NOT between adults, and claiming so is a twisting of facts. It's between adults and children. It's fucking child abuse and trying to say incest is "harmless" is ignorant, absurd, and dishonest. Incest causes severe psychological trauma and shame in the victims.
Then they should be arrested for child abuse...
And you must know a lot of incest victims since you can say how they feel.

Except homosexuality doesn't directly lead to child abuse and molestation, are you fucking crazy?
So a gay guy never raped anybody Stereotypes are fun!!!

What two family members does in the bedroom ISN'T always their fucking business because it allows crazy ass people to be justified in raping little kids for their benefit, because "its just between family."
You seem to have missed I said consenting adults have the right to privacy in the bedroom. I said nothing about kids.

...So you're saying that Democrats here in the US, are as bad as a political party who advocated the mass genocide of an entire ethnic race, in order to make their economy better and scapegoat all their problems on to? Are you fucking serious? They hold equal moral weight to you?[/quuote]

Personally? I think the Nazis are worse. But like I've said, I try to refraim form passing judgments as it's arrogant to do that.
Because with every Nazi hater you'l find a lover. Some of them are more intelligent and knowledgeable than you or I. David Irving is a good example.

You're full of shit. Or your empathy chip is fucked up.
I honestly don't see a difference in what I said. I said it was selfish for you to want it to go under. I said it be a bad thing to happen. I said as much here too. So...what did I say different?

Uh, how about all of the vast case studies and statistics done by the APA which you can find here, here, here, or here? Or why don't you just crack open an Abnormal Psychology or Dealing with Victims of Sexual Abuse text book? Do YOU have any proof to the contrary?
You said "since most incest involves an older man with a younger child. "
I asked for evidence. You simply linked me to articles on child abuse and its effects. So you got an article on incest that says most incest is child abuse?

No, a person can also be decent, and good. You're already beyond less since you've apparently demonstrated you can't empathize at all with a person outside your sphere of existence. That's not healthy, or balanced at all. Hell, what you've just exhibited could be seen as criteria for an Antisocial Personality type. And that's pretty fucked up, to say the least.
Well I'd rather be able to reason about these things than be blinded by the belief my morals are right and everything else is wrong.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
#58
Nikkolas, I'm seeing a lot of blatant strawmanning of Mako's points, and that is a big giant no no in any civilized discussion.

To be frank, you're being more self righteous than he is by an order of magnitude, you're attempting to ignore his point that the majority of incest tends to be abusive in nature, then try and throw a reverse fucking smokescreen by implying with your 'So a gay guy never raped anybody Stereotypes are fun!!!' that he's missing a giant point.

Let me just say that completely irrelevant of your viewpoint, what you're doing is INHERENTLY in violation of this goddamn subforum's rules and civil discourse and debate in general.
Keep it up, buddy, I dare you. We'll see where it goes.
 

The Man

Great Old One
AKA
Aaron
#59
Then there's genetic sexual attraction and cases like this
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/129106.html

What you're saying is as much a stereotype as incest babies having flipper feet or whatever.

The fact is incest is as demonized as it is because of misguided morals, just like homosexuality was years ago.
No, it's because the vast majority of incest cases involve coercion, and there's simply no way for the law to determine the small minority of the cases which don't involve coercion, so it's safer for individual human rights to outlaw all of them on principle.

Except the taking of another person's life can do a lot of good things.
[font=verdana, arial, sans-serif]what.[/font]

So why is it inheretnly wrong?
Because it violates the inherent right of each individual human being to his or her own life. How is making the prohibition against the intentional taking of another human being's life for anything other than self-defence anything but a universal standard at all beneficial for society?

No one can judge what is universally right or wrong. Not me, not you, not anyone. That's my whole point here.
That which causes unnecessary suffering is wrong. That which alleviates unnecessary suffering is desirable. Seems pretty self-explanatory to me.

And for all the cases that aren't like that? Oh I forgot, what you think is right and everything else is wrong. There is no such thing as grey areas.
Tell me, how would you have the law enforce grey areas? Would you rely on the testimony of family members, who could have their own motivations to lie? What about the testimony of the people involved, who could have been scared or manipulated into saying things against their own individual interest? How would you make certain individuals' rights were not being violated?

Oh wait. You can't do any of these things. Because it's impossible.

The law can't deal with "grey areas." It is one of its many limitations. However, the law is currently the best system we have for enforcing order in our society, capable of vast improvement though it is.

So a gay guy never raped anybody Stereotypes are fun!!!
Rape isn't related to sexual orientation or sexual desire of any kind. It's a crime of pure violence. Try again.

Because with every Nazi hater you'l find a lover. Some of them are more intelligent and knowledgeable than you or I. David Irving is a good example.
David Irving is a Holocaust denier. Therefore, describing him as "more intelligent and knowledgeable" than anyone on this forum is utterly absurd. If he is in fact more knowledgeable than anyone here, then he is also being utterly dishonest about most of his knowledge.

And no, you won't find "a Nazi lover" for every "Nazi Hater." The vast majority of civilised people deplore them, for very good reason.

You said "since most incest involves an older man with a younger child. "
I asked for evidence. You simply linked me to articles on child abuse and its effects. So you got an article on incest that says most incest is child abuse?
It is difficult to be certain since cases are rarely reported, but Nemeroff and Craighead (2001) report that around ten to fifteen percent of the population are estimated to have been victims of childhood sexual abuse; other reports conclude similar numbers. By contrast, Wolf and Durham (2004) report that incest between adults is rarely reported.

And I like the way you ignored the last part of my previous post, since you clearly have no rebuttal to it.
 
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#60
To be frank, you're being more self righteous than he is by an order of magnitude, you're attempting to ignore his point that the majority of incest tends to be abusive in nature, then try and throw a reverse fucking smokescreen by implying with your 'So a gay guy never raped anybody Stereotypes are fun!!!' that he's missing a giant point.
I ignored nothing. He mad e astatement, I asked for proof. His response was to link me to article on child abuse...which does nothing prove his point that a majority of incest is child abuse.
It's irrelevant anyway because I'm condoning consensual sex between adults. His bringing child molestation into this doesn't have anything to do with my argument. In fact if incest laws were repealed, anyone who molested a child, family or not, would be subject to the law and punishment.

So I don't even see how Mako has a point.

Let me just say that completely irrelevant of your viewpoint, what you're doing is INHERENTLY in violation of this goddamn subforum's rules and civil discourse and debate in general.
Keep it up, buddy, I dare you. We'll see where it goes.
Okie dokie.

No, it's because the vast majority of incest cases involve coercion, and there's simply no way for the law to determine the small minority of the cases which don't involve coercion, so it's safer for individual human rights to outlaw all of them on principle.
Again with the unfounded stereotypes. Your point also holds no weight whatsoever as the law would also punish them for sex with a minor. So why is incest illegal? Outdated morals based on culture and religion.

I cap Osama bin Laden right now. Millions are happy.
That's just one example of how murder is a good thing. There's countless more.

Because it violates the inherent right of each individual human being to his or her own life. How is making the prohibition against the intentional taking of another human being's life for anything other than self-defence anything but a universal standard at all beneficial for society?
Osama, Hitler, Stalin, you're saying nobody would openly jump at the chance to shoot any of these people even if said people were handcuffed and helpless?

That which causes unnecessary suffering is wrong. That which alleviates unnecessary suffering is desirable. Seems pretty self-explanatory to me.
Many good things can come out of causing tragedy. Nazi policies alleviated the general suffering of Germany and made it one of the strongest nations in the world and history. At the cost of causing suffering. Of course I guess that makes it necessary and not unecessary as you said.

Tell me, how would you have the law enforce grey areas? Would you rely on the testimony of family members, who could have their own motivations to lie? What about the testimony of the people involved, who could have been scared or manipulated into saying things against their own individual interest? How would you make certain individuals' rights were not being violated?
Well, first, even if incest remained illegal, all those possibilities would still exist so I don't see how it's a counter-argument to my belief in how incest should be legal.
But on your actual point, you can't help someone if they refuse to be helped. If a family member was victimized and lied to us about it and refused to cooperate, it be impossible to do anything for them. In the case of adults anyway.
When it comes to minors, I believe it's within in the law to remove children from unsafe homes. If the child shows signs of abuse, I personally don't have a problem with the law taking them away from the parent.

So how would I protect individual rights? By removing the unecessary laws against incest and just keeping everything else about the same. As I've said, two consenting adults, let them do whatever they want.

David Irving is a Holocaust denier. Therefore, describing him as "more intelligent and knowledgeable" than anyone on this forum is utterly absurd. If he is in fact more knowledgeable than anyone here, then he is also being utterly dishonest about most of his knowledge.
As I've said, different people have different beliefs. The fact someone believes one dumb thing doesn't somehow make him dumb. His books are very good reads in fact.
I definitely wouldn't say me or anyone here was smarter than Goebbels because he was a true genius. Yet he believed Jews were below us. That one belief doesn't make him less of a genius, though.
He's one of the smartest political minds of the 20th Century IMO.

It is difficult to be certain since cases are rarely reported, but Nemeroff and Craighead (2001) report that around ten to fifteen percent of the population are estimated to have been victims of childhood sexual abuse; other reports conclude similar numbers. By contrast, Wolf and Durham (2004) report that incest between adults is rarely reported.
Welll as you said, it's difficult nigh impossible to get real numbers. Those cases of child abuse are obviously reported because there are usually signs noted by objective observers looking out for the child. With adultsm people aren't quite as attentive and I doubt the two consenting adults report the fact they're doing something illegal.

And one courey reply
So you've cried at family members' funerals, big deal. Empathy for strangers is what is required for a functional human being. Having no sympathy for people you've met doesn't make you "more of a man." If anything, it makes you less of one, since it strongly implies that your morality isn't developed enough to apply universal principles of right and wrong.
I already replied to this basically. Neither you ro i nor anyone is "developed" enough to apply universal concepts of right and wrong.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#61
Then there's genetic sexual attraction and cases like this
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/129106.html

What you're saying is as much a stereotype as incest babies having flipper feet or whatever.

The fact is incest is as demonized as it is because of misguided morals, just like homosexuality was years ago.
That's not the majority of incest cases at all. That's not even close to indicative of actual statistics of incest. That's not proving anything. There exceptions to everything. The fact of the matter is, is that incest is not only biologically unfair to any children born from the incestuous relationship, but more often than not, it's abuse. It is extremely rare that it isn't, and the taboo exists because it's genetically abnormal and unhealthy. That's just common sense.


Except the taking of another person's life can do a lot of good things. So why is it inheretnly wrong?
Because, it robs the person of their inherent right to live, you moron. Everyone has a right to live.



No one can judge what is universally right or wrong. Not me, not you, not anyone. That's my whole point here.
Except, you can, because things blatantly rob the rights of others are inherently wrong and unequal. Unless you believe inequality is fair which is completely contradictory.



And for all the cases that aren't like that? Oh I forgot, what you think is right and everything else is wrong. There is no such thing as grey areas.



Then they should be arrested for child abuse...
And you must know a lot of incest victims since you can say how they feel.
Yeah, I work with victims of abuse, you dumbass.



So a gay guy never raped anybody Stereotypes are fun!!!
At least seventy percent of cases of homosexuality aren't cases of abuse and rape. Big difference.



You seem to have missed I said consenting adults have the right to privacy in the bedroom. I said nothing about kids.
The fact is, is that incest mostly involves child sexual abuse though. It's not just adults. In fact, it's more kids, THAN adults. 70 fucking percent.

Personally? I think the Nazis are worse. But like I've said, I try to refraim form passing judgments as it's arrogant to do that.
Because with every Nazi hater you'l find a lover. Some of them are more intelligent and knowledgeable than you or I. David Irving is a good example.
Are you fucking advocating that holocaust denier, David Irving? Are you fucking serious? And you call yourself TOLERANT? He's a holocaust denier, you stupid idiot. You're saying he's fucking knowledgeable? He's a liar and an anti-Semite. HE SPEAKS AT NEO-NAZI RALLIES IN GERMANY.



I honestly don't see a difference in what I said. I said it was selfish for you to want it to go under. I said it be a bad thing to happen. I said as much here too. So...what did I say different?

No you fucking didn't.
You said it was no big deal if a child died, but then said it was important and selfish, and horrible to wish people out of a job. You're full of contradiction and bullshit.



You said "since most incest involves an older man with a younger child. "
I asked for evidence. You simply linked me to articles on child abuse and its effects. So you got an article on incest that says most incest is child abuse?
You're a moron. Oh my God...Here. Here's an article that'll help you out right here.

More than 70% of abusers are immediate family members or someone very close to the family.
That sums it up right fucking there. And the most reported incidents of incest are father & daughter and stepfather & daughter incest, with most of the remaining consisting of mother & stepmother and daughter & son incest.

Adult incest is extremely fucking rare and out of the norm. It isn't normal to fuck your brother or sister.

So how would I protect individual rights? By removing the unecessary laws against incest and just keeping everything else about the same. As I've said, two consenting adults, let them do whatever they want.
Except that's flawed because incest victims are abused even into adulthood, even by their older siblings. That's not a fair gauge to look at in terms of consent. If a younger sibling was groomed and abused since she could remember and was essentially brainwashed into believing her "brother" was her best choice as a partner, then she really can't give informed, or reasonable consent. Because she's been violated and raped repeatedly.

As I've said, different people have different beliefs. The fact someone believes one dumb thing doesn't somehow make him dumb. His books are very good reads in fact.
I definitely wouldn't say me or anyone here was smarter than Goebbels because he was a true genius. Yet he believed Jews were below us. That one belief doesn't make him less of a genius, though.
He's one of the smartest political minds of the 20th Century IMO.
You're fucking ridiculous and you truly don't know crap. I can't fucking believe you'd say he's one of the smartest political minds of the 20th Century. You don't your history at all.
 
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Munatik

Beacause I am a puppet
#62
Oh please. Self-righteousness is boring.
My statement wasn't meant to amuse you.

What you're saying is as much a stereotype as incest babies having flipper feet or whatever.
Again with the unfounded stereotypes. Your point also holds no weight whatsoever as the law would also punish them for sex with a minor. So why is incest illegal? Outdated morals based on culture and religion.
Wrong.

Incest babies are not a "stereotype". That means nothing in this context because congenital birth defects are real, detrimental effects, not an abstract, sociological concepts. Mako pointed this out several posts ago, but the increased probability of congenital birth defects being inherited by offspring--intentionally conceived or otherwise--is many times greater when the parents are related, even if they are first cousins without a previous history of inbreeding within their family. Would you like some examples of such disorders?

PKU, or Phenylketonuria-- A metabolic disorder whose classic signs are characterized by severe brain problems, including mental retardation and seizures if left untreated.

Neu-Laxova Syndrome-- "characterised by intrauterine growth restriction, microcephaly, facial dysmorphy, short neck, edema, scaly skin and perinatal death." Google pictures if you have the stomach. (source)

Meckel Syndrome-- The infant’s front “soft spot” (fontanel) is too big, which allows some of the brain and spinal fluid to bulge out (encephalocele); the kidneys have many cysts in them (polycystic). This causes the kidneys to be too big and to not work properly; there are too many fingers and/or toes (polydactyly); the liver and lungs did not develop properly before birth. Mortality rate 100%. (source)

All of these are caused by recessive genes, one copy inherited from each parent. I will grant that these birth defects can appear in nonconsanguineous parents, but again, the likelihood of them appearing in consanguineous couples is much, much greater. Look up a concept called "inbreeding coefficient" if you have doubts.

I really shouldn't have had to explain all of this, you know. It's very well known that inbreeding poses an increased risk for disease in children. I also think it's pretty clear that in nature, inbreeding is a no-no for sexual organisms given such a risk. Nevermind that sexual reproduction evolved in the first place because increased genetic diversity confers more survival benefits for a population.

This is just one problem with incest. Sexual abuse being the other, as it has been mentioned-- and you're backpedalling quite nicely there. You asked how incest is wrong. Only incest. Mako and the Man rebutted you with a reasonable argument, and so now you have to qualify that you meant incest between adults. Icwatudidthar, but you can't rearrange the goalposts and have someone with even half a brain not notice.


Many good things can come out of causing tragedy. Nazi policies alleviated the general suffering of Germany and made it one of the strongest nations in the world and history. At the cost of causing suffering. Of course I guess that makes it necessary and not unecessary as you said.
Yes, the extermination of millions of Jews is the direct cause of Germany's prosperity today. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you?
 

The Man

Great Old One
AKA
Aaron
#63
Most of Nikkolas' absurd "points" have already been thoroughly rebutted, but I just felt like pointing this out

Osama, Hitler, Stalin, you're saying nobody would openly jump at the chance to shoot any of these people even if said people were handcuffed and helpless?
There's a big difference between killing a mass murderer for their crimes and murder. You originally stated that there's nothing wrong with murder. The definition of murder disallows extenuating circumstances such as a past history of serial killing as motivation; if it can be demonstrated that the person killed had intent to kill again, which should be easy in Hitler/Stalin/Osama's cases, then it would be a justifiable homicide. Murder, by its very definition, is unjustified.

And incidentally, under our legal system even Hitler and Stalin would get trials before they were executed. We have the rule of law in this country for a very good reason.

Neither you ro i nor anyone is "developed" enough to apply universal concepts of right and wrong.
Don't project your own, very blatantly obvious personal limitations onto others please.
 
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#64
That's not the majority of incest cases at all. That's not even close to indicative of actual statistics of incest. That's not proving anything. There exceptions to everything. The fact of the matter is, is that incest is not only biologically unfair to any children born from the incestuous relationship, but more often than not, it's abuse. It is extremely rare that it isn't, and the taboo exists because it's genetically abnormal and unhealthy. That's just common sense.
Comon sense ia as relative as morality just FYI.

And the consequences of incest really aren't that severe in the short term. If a brother and sister have a kid together, his risk for deformity isn't substnailly increased. Now maybe if that kid has sex with his siter and so-on things will begin to break down but that's not very likely anyway.

And there are exceptions to every rule...except you have yet to prove incest is the product of abuse is the rule.

Because, it robs the person of their inherent right to live, you moron. Everyone has a right to live.
Says you and I. Except some people would say you forfeit that right with your actions.

Except, you can, because things blatantly rob the rights of others are inherently wrong and unequal. Unless you believe inequality is fair which is completely contradictory.
It's not what I believe that matters. But for the sake of it, I do believe in equality but one person's morals or one grou's morals are not always right. That's all I'm saying.

The fact is, is that incest mostly involves child sexual abuse though. It's not just adults. In fact, it's more kids, THAN adults. 70 fucking percent.
Link to that statistic?
Not like it matters. One of the first things you learn about statistics is how easily manipulated they are.

Are you fucking advocating that holocaust denier, David Irving? Are you fucking serious? And you call yourself TOLERANT? He's a holocaust denier, you stupid idiot. You're saying he's fucking knowledgeable? He's a liar and an anti-Semite. HE SPEAKS AT NEO-NAZI RALLIES IN GERMANY.
And this post right here is quite intolerant in itself....
I am tolerant. That's why I don't reject viewpoints automatically or hate on people for thinking different. Advocaters of tolerance are intolerant of the intolerant and thus are hypocrites.

No you fucking didn't. You said it was no big deal if a child died, but then said it was important and selfish, and horrible to wish people out of a job. You're full of contradiction and bullshit.
...there is no comparison between thousands of people with families being forced under and a child dying because of political repression. The events don't even take place on the same continent.

There is no contradiction.

That sums it up right fucking there. And the most reported incidents of incest are father & daughter and stepfather & daughter incest, with most of the remaining consisting of mother & stepmother and daughter & son incest.
...you just gave me a link to ANOTHER article about child abuse. That statistic is only about abuse. 70% of child molestation is incest. So that doesn't equal 70% of incest cases are child abuse.

Also, look at how flagrantly biased the article is
"Incest was traditionally defined as sex between close relatives. But incest is, above all, abuse; abuse by the very person(s) entrusted with the child's care. Incest is "any use of a minor child to meet the sexual or sexual/emotional needs of one or more persons whose authority is derived through ongoing emotional bonding with that child."

That's so disgustingly untrue it's retarded. Incest is only defined as sex between family members. It is not abusing anyone to bonk your twin sister or an older cousin or whatever.

Except that's flawed because incest victims are abused even into adulthood, even by their older siblings. That's not a fair gauge to look at in terms of consent. If a younger sibling was groomed and abused since she could remember and was essentially brainwashed into believing her "brother" was her best choice as a partner, then she really can't give informed, or reasonable consent. Because she's been violated and raped repeatedly.
Then that should be judged on a case-by-case basis. Againt eh law is imperfect Two adults brought together and fall in love and do it shouldn't be punished just because someone else fucked their little sister from a young age.

You're fucking ridiculous and you truly don't know crap. I can't fucking believe you'd say he's one of the smartest political minds of the 20th Century. You don't your history at all.
Actually i'm qupte well-informed in 20th Century politics. It was always the mos tinteresting part of history for me. Goebbels revolutionzed propaganda. He could mobilize the people against any threat the Nazis wanted. His comparison fo Nazism and Bolshevism is truly inspired.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb58.htm

I'm no Nazi but Dr. Goebbels seems to have been a keen political intellect and while the speech is lengthy and has many slurs on the Jews, I found this part completely agreeable.

""That is Bolshevic propaganda. That is the form in which it clothes itself and lives, using falsehood and slander and chicanery, so as to make the nations suspicious of one another and hate one another, thus spreading a general spirit of unrest; because the Bolshevics know so well that they can never bring the communist idea to triumph except in an age that is distracted and sceptical.""

But hey, he's only a genius acccording to me and many others. His status as one of the best minds of his century is totally up for debate and I wouldn't dream of saying it's a fact. Of course if you say he isn't, that's not a fact either. It's an opinion.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#65
I can't take this anymore. Your offensive, bullshit, doesn't even have any foundation in and of itself, so how are you even in a position to call the fundamental biological understanding of the negatives of incest, bullshit, and "not that severe?" You're fucking full of it.

And no, the article isn't flagrantly biased. You've offered no evidence whatsoever, and you have no basis to call APA knowledge and understanding of incest and abuse, which is based on years of research and understanding, bullshit. You're so full of it. INCEST IN AND OF ITSELF IS ABUSE.

And I'm not even touching the holocaust denial bullshit. No one has to be tolerant of offensive hate, and denial of reality..which is what a holocaust denier does. Fuck off with your holocaust denial, you ignorant, hypocritical bastard.
 
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AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#66
Bai bai mr crazy.

Plz come back after you've had your evaluation.
 

A

Great Old One
#67
Incest is only defined as sex between family members. It is not abusing anyone to bonk your twin sister or an older cousin or whatever.
This has to one of the most fucked up sentences I've ever read.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
#68
You know, calling a holocaust denier 'one of the greatest minds of our generation' says so much more about you than you really realize, Nikky.

And yes, you were blatantly ignoring many point Mako made, though he's dealt with it already.

And you've run out of chances, monkeychuckle. If you feel like pressing your chances when you come back, you'll learn what a revolving door looks like on the internet.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#69
His goddamn chances are done. Fuck the pedo, incest lover. He can fap to Kuja's hips and Genesis in a thong somewhere else.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
#70
Yeah, I changed my post right as I made it, then went to ban the guy only to learn it'd been done for me.
 

The Man

Great Old One
AKA
Aaron
#73
Comon sense ia as relative as morality just FYI.
No it fucking isn't. It's called "common sense" because it's common. You clearly don't have it.

And the consequences of incest really aren't that severe in the short term. If a brother and sister have a kid together, his risk for deformity isn't substnailly increased.
You are woefully ignorant. Go read Munatik's post, and reread it over and over until that sinks in.

And there are exceptions to every rule...except you have yet to prove incest is the product of abuse is the rule.
When there are statistics saying 15% of the populace are abused by family members, it's not very fucking difficult to find that non-consensual incest is much more common than consensual incest, except for people who have a vested interest in poisoning the well.

Says you and I. Except some people would say you forfeit that right with your actions.
See above where I pointed out that you were originally referred to murder, which is by its very definition not motivated by another person's actions.

It's not what I believe that matters.
Then why are you even fucking posting it?

But for the sake of it, I do believe in equality but one person's morals or one grou's morals are not always right. That's all I'm saying.
You believe in equality, yet you advocate the views of Holocaust deniers? Does not compute.

Link to that statistic?
Not like it matters. One of the first things you learn about statistics is how easily manipulated they are.
If thirty percent of male children and forty percent of male children are abused, then it follows quite logically that the majority of incest cases are abusive, since clearly we don't have twenty percent of adults sleeping with relatives.

And this post right here is quite intolerant in itself....
I am tolerant. That's why I don't reject viewpoints automatically or hate on people for thinking different. Advocaters of tolerance are intolerant of the intolerant and thus are hypocrites.
Intolerance of intolerance is not hypocritical in the slightest, since we've all seen what happens when people tolerate intolerance. I'll give you a clue: it was called the Holocaust.

...there is no comparison between thousands of people with families being forced under and a child dying because of political repression. The events don't even take place on the same continent.

There is no contradiction.
What continent they take place on is completely irrelevant. Didn't you just say you believed in equality? Yet here you are, blatantly applying different standards to events that happen in different locations. What a hypocrite you are.

...you just gave me a link to ANOTHER article about child abuse. That statistic is only about abuse. 70% of child molestation is incest. So that doesn't equal 70% of incest cases are child abuse.
But, when the vast majority of incest cases are between parents and children, there clearly is a power dynamic that guarantees the relationship will be coercive.

Also, look at how flagrantly biased the article is
"Incest was traditionally defined as sex between close relatives. But incest is, above all, abuse; abuse by the very person(s) entrusted with the child's care. Incest is "any use of a minor child to meet the sexual or sexual/emotional needs of one or more persons whose authority is derived through ongoing emotional bonding with that child."

That's so disgustingly untrue it's retarded. Incest is only defined as sex between family members. It is not abusing anyone to bonk your twin sister or an older cousin or whatever.
As I have stated several times above, family relationships are too complicated to be compared to other relationships. There are power struggles that have nothing to do with sexuality, so when you bring sexuality into the picture, how can you guarantee that there is no coercion, whether explicit or implicit, involved? The simple answer is that you can't.

Then that should be judged on a case-by-case basis. Againt eh law is imperfect Two adults brought together and fall in love and do it shouldn't be punished just because someone else fucked their little sister from a young age.
The law is imperfect, but it's also, properly enacted and enforced, the only guarantor of individual rights we have. The number of cases in which actually consensual incest occurs is so utterly minuscule that it's simply safer to outlaw it completely than to risk a massive number of cases of abuse being legitimised by legalising incest.

Actually i'm qupte well-informed in 20th Century politics. It was always the mos tinteresting part of history for me. Goebbels revolutionzed propaganda. He could mobilize the people against any threat the Nazis wanted. His comparison fo Nazism and Bolshevism is truly inspired.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb58.htm

I'm no Nazi but Dr. Goebbels seems to have been a keen political intellect and while the speech is lengthy and has many slurs on the Jews, I found this part completely agreeable.

""That is Bolshevic propaganda. That is the form in which it clothes itself and lives, using falsehood and slander and chicanery, so as to make the nations suspicious of one another and hate one another, thus spreading a general spirit of unrest; because the Bolshevics know so well that they can never bring the communist idea to triumph except in an age that is distracted and sceptical.""

But hey, he's only a genius acccording to me and many others. His status as one of the best minds of his century is totally up for debate and I wouldn't dream of saying it's a fact. Of course if you say he isn't, that's not a fact either. It's an opinion.
:doublefacepalm:

I'll just let your words here speak for themselves.
 
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