Is Marche a huge dick?

[Ryushikaze]

Diego, the problem isn't 'Go home and leave my friends in the fantasy', it's 'Go home and leave my friends in the fantasy they are inadvertently forcing on this other world'

You point out 'what right does he have to do that', which is fair, but also begs the question, what right did they have to impose their reality on the other Ivalice? Remember, the power keeping them there is also rewriting reality, forcing not just their existences, but massive changes onto the world.

If Ivalice Alliance Ivalice 'Didn't exist', Marche would be far less justified. But it does, and Marche and Company's presence there- via the entity from the grimiore- was having a affect on the world that they actually remembered when they left. FFTA2 makes that inescapable.

So, yes, Marche was an asshole- more for the how rather than the what of his deeds- but he was right.

 

[Joker]

And again I say - so you fix all that, everything goes back to normal, yadda yadda. The fantasy Ivalice still exists, so why is it wrong for Ritz, Mewt, etc, to stay behind? Why then do they have to go back to the real world?

 

[Ryushikaze]

And again I say - so you fix all that, everything goes back to normal, yadda yadda. The fantasy Ivalice still exists, so why is it wrong for Ritz, Mewt, etc, to stay behind? Why then do they have to go back to the real world?

Because the spell keeping them there in the first place is now undone, and they're all snapping back, I would guess. If they want, I presume they can go back- Luso proves the Tome CAN be used to go back, and Mewt held onto it for all that time.

What's interesting in this discussion is MontBlanc and the other FF Ivalicians who knowingly Aid Marche in his quest, even knowing it COULD mean the end of their existence.

 

[Blade]

If I might contribute to this discussion, if someone took OUR world and turned IT upside down, would you guys want to live in a world filled with monsters and demons and whatever else have you?

And considering the majority of the story takes place inside a grimoire, I don't think MontBlanc and the others really have to worry about disappearing until someone else opens the book again.... kinda like Jumanji.

 

[Roger]

If I might contribute to this discussion, if someone took OUR world and turned IT upside down, would you guys want to live in a world filled with monsters and demons and whatever else have you?

And considering the majority of the story takes place inside a grimoire, I don't think MontBlanc and the others really have to worry about disappearing until someone else opens the book again.... kinda like Jumanji.

What I want has little to do with it. I should try to live in the present instead of reversing time and recreating the past. Pretending you can undo anything you don't like is hardly a realistic lesson. Marche isn't going around trying to undo the fact of his little brother's crippling either, though their might just be a magic that can do just that. Marche has no idea the Earth still exists in a way that can be brought back, that Ivalice won't be destroyed by it's remaking, that Earth is actually effected by this beyond a few kids not being there. His need to go back home is a selfish one that he pits against the right to exist and make their own choices of everyone around him.
Conveniently he is right. This is all kept going at the detriment Earth, which can be reversed, but for some reason it doesn't need to have an adverse effect on Earth for Ivalice to keep going as it is, and they CAN visit any time they want without any consequence, it's only this particular instance of them visiting Ivalice, where Marche is the only one that wants to go back, that going back happens to be neccesary for any reason at all. Reality bent over backwards to make sure Marche's violent and selfish actions have no victims. Yes, Marche is a dick. That his being a dick just so happened to result on him stumbling on the right answers does not diminiish this.

 

[Blade]

^TLDR I'm wrong and my voice of reason doesn't count in your book of insanity.

It's called "relating to how other people think" or are some of you incapable of this?

Marche followed the LAWS of the world he was IN and WON and got his brother out of that hellhole... you try doing that.

No one ever watched David Bowie's The Labyrinth did they?

 

[Roger]

^TLDR I'm wrong and my voice of reason doesn't count in your book of insanity.

It's called "relating to how other people think" or are some of you incapable of this?

Marche followed the LAWS of the world he was IN and WON and got his brother out of that hellhole... you try doing that.

No one ever watched David Bowie's The Labyrinth did they?

I watched it, Ivalice isn't ruled by some evil Goblin king nor is his brother held captive by one. Nor does Marche have only 13 hours to bring them back before his little brother is a goblin forever. FFTA is if all those aspects weren't a thing but Sarah was still like "Well **** this magical kingdom forever, none of this!"

 

[Blade]

No, Ivalice is ruled by the Occuria, who really screwed up the world and created beings that held Marche's brother captive.

Whether it was a time limit or not, he still had to put up with that world's chaos and rules whether he wanted to or not.

Most people think fantasy is a wonderful escape, but tell guys like Ashley Riot and Gabranth that...

 

[Roger]

No, Ivalice is ruled by the Occuria, who really screwed up the world and created beings that held Marche's brother captive.

Whether it was a time limit or not, he still had to put up with that world's chaos and rules whether he wanted to or not.

In what way do the Occuria rule Ivalice? They gave powerful stones to a King many years before FFXII that made him powerful. Since then the stone have fallen into disuse, the Dynast-King's kingdom has dimished and split into two or more pieces. Meanwhile human empires spring up that our outsides of their control and make war and commit atrocities all on their own. The Occuria are just one political party in Ivalice that thinks a lot of themselves, no different, better or worse from any of the humans ones. They don't rule or control Ivalice in any definitive way, they don't deserve to, nor do any of the humans in FFXII that they proclaim it is their time now. Ivalice doesn't belong to anyone race.

And escaping Ivalice means subjecting himself and others to this world's chaos and rules whether they want to or not. Cid is back to being a drunk bum out in the freezing cold being in trouble with the law again. Mewt probably ends up in the system. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Most people think fantasy is a wonderful escape, but tell guys like Ashley Riot and Gabranth that...

But it's not fantasy for Marche, he exists there, hangs out with friends he considers real, he is surrounded by people with agency and a right to live in their own right. Just because the way it used to be is viewed as better doesn't make reversing events at any cost is morally justifiable. Living in the real world means accepting that some things can't be undone. He's at least every bit blindly hoping that his goals are achievable and don't have overly negative impact for those around him then Ritz and Doned do. Even if he figured that being in Ivalice must mean something has happened to Earth, it should follow that the reverse might also be true. In the end it turns out it doesn't, but the plot only gets going because that prospect doesn't stop him, Montblanc and his comrades be damned.

 

[Blade]

The Occuria were responsible for the Espers, but they also manipulated the royal families and thought themselves controllers of History itself. It was mankind's lust for power that made them fall sway to the Occuria's manipulations which happened regardless.

This world isn't as bad as you seem to think, Mister Disillusioned.
Also, Cid being a bum drunk is Cid's choice, lol. That's got nothing to do with Mewt or Marche or even the fate of the world.

Marche and Mewt were forced to enter a world with absurd rules just because they opened a book. Marche only considers his own world to be real, hence why he prioritized it, but he's not wrong for thinking this for one major reason: because the world they entered did NOT exist until they opened the book!

Just because something gains existence doesn't make it more valid over other existences... just like how the Occuria claimed they ruled History isn't true, neither is the idea that one world can take over reality compared to another world that existed before.

This world is not less important than Ivalice... this world existed BEFORE Ivalice and that means this world takes priority!

Even if you hate this world, that's no justification for disassociating with it or wiping it out... just as it was not up to Mewt to decide the fate of this world when he took control of Ivalice. That sort of action is very selfish, in fact.

This exact same thing can be seen between Gaia and Terra in FFIX. Just because Terra had advanced technology or Magic doesn't mean it has the right to absorb Gaia in to itself for the sake of preserving whatever limited existence Terra gained.

 

[Roger]

The Occuria were responsible for the Espers, but they also manipulated the royal families and thought themselves controllers of History itself. It was mankind's lust for power that made them fall sway to the Occuria's manipulations which happened regardless.

Yeah, they thought themselves controllers of history, they aren't. Mankind thinks Ivalice should belong to them alone, it shouldn't. Neither is better, neither deserves extinction or to have no say at all in the order of their world at all going forward.

This world isn't as bad as you seem to think, Mister Disillusioned.
Also, Cid being a bum drunk is Cid's choice, lol. That's got nothing to do with Mewt or Marche or even the fate of the world.

It's got everything to do with Mewt. And however free of serious flaws you think our world is, moving some place else to reverse your fortunes when things don't work out in your current location has been how mankind has dealt with problems throughout history. In Marche's world, magic exists, over there it's proven fact. It doesn't become a less valid choice to change your life because he says it.

Marche and Mewt were forced to enter a world with absurd rules just because they opened a book. Marche only considers his own world to be real, hence why he prioritized it, but he's not wrong for thinking this for one major reason: because the world they entered did NOT exist until they opened the book!

Just because something gains existence doesn't make it more valid over other existences... just like how the Occuria claimed they ruled History isn't true, neither is the idea that one world can take over reality compared to another world that existed before.

This world is not less important than Ivalice... this world existed BEFORE Ivalice and that means this world takes priority!

Even if you hate this world, that's no justification for disassociating with it or wiping it out... just as it was not up to Mewt to decide the fate of this world when he took control of Ivalice. That sort of action is very selfish, in fact.

This exact same thing can be seen between Gaia and Terra in FFIX. Just because Terra had advanced technology or Magic doesn't mean it has the right to absorb Gaia in to itself for the sake of preserving whatever limited existence Terra gained.

Being older, or existing longer doesn't give someone or something priority. When a baby is born, killing it becomes murder. No different with all the intelligent lives in Ivalice that Marche toys with, they all gained the right to live just as much anyone else the moment they started living. If we had the option kill someone, themselves entirely innocent and thereby spare someone else from certain death, we would not be allowed to seize upon that opportunity. Mewt unwittingly, initially played the role of God, like you said he just opened up a book, him being a stubborn princely brat about it afterwards doesn't retroactively make turning pages in a book together with his friends cold-blooded murder. Comparatively, Marche accepting the possible if not extremely likely ends of the lives of everyone around him as an acceptable cost to return to Earth, is entirely premeditated. The adult thing is to say "what's done is done, we have to deal with the world as it exist now, not judge it by how we felt it ought to be ten days ago."

 

[Blade]

Let's get a few things straight:

Occuria created the Espers and the Grimoires the Grimoire created Ivalice. This has nothing to do with Mankind directly... they just participated in the end resulting conflicts related to what the Occuria did. Magic exists in Mewt and Marche's world BECAUSE of the Occuria. The Occuria created Magic as a means to manipulate MANKIND, that includes the creation of Ivalice.

Mewt was manipulated BY an Esper and fooled in to thinking it was his Mother. This Esper took HIM and his friend Marche in to a world against their own will VIA DECEPTION as a means OF MANIPULATION. If Mewt had known he was being tricked, I doubt he would've been taken by that artificially created world so easily.

And this so called "baby that Marche murdered" (named Ivalice) was trying to rule over his younger friend via an Esper... what Marche did was self-defense, not Murder.

 

[Roger]

Let's get a few things straight:

Occuria created the Espers and the Grimoires the Grimoire created Ivalice. This has nothing to do with Mankind directly... they just participated in the end resulting conflicts related to what the Occuria did. Magic exists in Mewt and Marche's world BECAUSE of the Occuria. The Occuria created Magic as a means to manipulate MANKIND, that includes the creation of Ivalice.

Please cite source and what purely scientific instruments did the Occuria use to create magic, where did they live before the world of Ivalice existed?

Mewt was manipulated BY an Esper and fooled in to thinking it was his Mother. This Esper took HIM and his brother Marche in to a world against their own will VIA DECEPTION as a means OF MANIPULATION. If Mewt had known he was being tricked, I doubt he would've been taken by that artificially created world so easily.

And this so called "baby that Marche murdered" (named Ivalice) was trying to rule over his younger brother via an Esper... what Marche did was self-defense, not Murder.

Going back home isn't some byproduct of Marche's quest to stop the injustice that Espers supposedly represent. It was his sole motive, what you're talking about he has no idea about when he starts destroying crystals and chipping away at the very fabric of reality that he those around him inhabit.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Just because something gains existence doesn't make it more valid over other existences...

Not more valid, no. Equally valid, though, yes.

... just like how the Occuria claimed they ruled History isn't true, neither is the idea that one world can take over reality compared to another world that existed before.

There's no similarities in the things you're comparing. One doesn't exist (veracity in the Occuria's arrogant and entitled belief), one does exist (the inhabited world that is Ivalice).

This world is not less important than Ivalice... this world existed BEFORE Ivalice and that means this world takes priority!

Even if you hate this world, that's no justification for disassociating with it or wiping it out... just as it was not up to Mewt to decide the fate of this world when he took control of Ivalice. That sort of action is very selfish, in fact.

This exact same thing can be seen between Gaia and Terra in FFIX. Just because Terra had advanced technology or Magic doesn't mean it has the right to absorb Gaia in to itself for the sake of preserving whatever limited existence Terra gained.

This is actually a valid comparison, but one that makes the opposite case from what you're proposing.

Terra attempted to preserve itself by assimilating Gaia, as it had done to worlds with very young, fresh crystals. The older, dying world was too weak to eat a world in its prime, however, and so the process was incomplete. It still initiated and partially took place before the malfunction, though.

Both planets came to occupy the same physical space, and while the effects on Terra were relatively benign (i.e. being shifted inside of the other planet while most of its structures were left on the surface), Gaia experienced cataclysm. All of civilization was destroyed and untold lives were lost.

New life -- and altogether new lifeforms -- emerged from this planetwide violation, however, including the various races with animal traits that populate Gaia's world alongside the humes.

What Marche was wholly willing to do to Mewt's created world is comparable to someone deciding to undo the partially successful Fusion spell that merged Terra into Gaia in the blind hope that what used to be there would be restored in exchange for the almost certain destruction of all that is there now.

Even if we took the loss of humes out of it (for which we have no guarantee that we should), would it be anything less than dickish behavior to destroy Alexandria, Lindblum, Conde Petie, what's left of Burmecia, etc., kill Hippaul, Puck, Freya, Fratley, Quina, Stiltzkin, Mogmi and Moguta (and their kids), Doctor Tot, Benero and Zenero, along with all the rest of their kinds and any other non-hume races I've overlooked -- just in the hope that the old civilization might be restored?
----

Re:the Occuria

Occuria created the Espers and the Grimoires the Grimoire created Ivalice. This has nothing to do with Mankind directly... they just participated in the end resulting conflicts related to what the Occuria did. Magic exists in Mewt and Marche's world BECAUSE of the Occuria. The Occuria created Magic as a means to manipulate MANKIND, that includes the creation of Ivalice.

I don't think we've ever been given any indication of the Occuria creating those books. If anything, the implication of Ivalice being created from a Grimoire suggests the opposite. The Occuria are inhabitants of Ivalice. If Ivalice was created by a Grimoire, then the Occuria were most likely created by that Grimoire as well, before they went on in turn to create the Scions.

 

[Blade]

Please cite source and what purely scientific instruments did the Occuria use to create magic, where did they live before the world of Ivalice existed?

You can't apply Science to Magic. If a Magic Grimoire existed in the world Marche and Mewt existed in, then it stands to reason that SOMETHING created that object. And the only THING that could create such Magic that would be powerful enough to create a world like Ivalice and the Espers in Ivalice is the Occuria. This is a simple deduction in logic.

If Magic truly didn't exist in Marche's world, the Book would not have done what it did.
And even if the Occuria weren't responsible, something "like" them are for creating the Grimoire in the first place.

Going back home isn't some byproduct of Marche's quest to stop the injustice that Espers supposedly represent. It was his sole motive, what you're talking about he has no idea about when he starts destroying crystals and chipping away at the very fabric of reality that he those around him inhabit.

Marche's SOLE MOTIVE, was to rescue his FRIEND Mewt.
If I had a younger sibling/friend who got stuck in some ersatz Eldritch abomination of a world... I would tear everything in it apart to get him back.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Mewt wasn't Marche's brother, by the way. That was Doned.

 

[Blade]

Even if he wasn't related by blood, it's still a valid reason to save him.

 

[Roger]

You can't apply Science to Magic. If a Magic Grimoire existed in the world Marche and Mewt existed in, then it stands to reason that SOMETHING created that object. And the only THING that could create such Magic that would be powerful enough to create a world like Ivalice and the Espers in Ivalice is the Occuria. This is a simple deduction in logic.

If Magic truly didn't exist in Marche's world, the Book would not have done what it did.
And even if the Occuria weren't responsible, something "like" them are for creating the Grimoire in the first place.

Yeah, something created the Grimoire, I'm not disputing that, that it must be the Occuria because Ivalice is a place later established to have really powerful beings called the Occuria is far from any kind of guarantee. But the Occuria did NOT create magic. They are powerful because they are magical, magic is a thing that exists in their world. YOU can take the stance that because something is created through magic it is less real then if it seemingly is not but we are discussing Marche, he does not live in our world, he lives in St. Ivalice, a place where Magic Grimoires exist and are real, and Ivalice is a magical place filled with people, living lives as real as anyone's, as he's personally bore witness too.

If I had a younger sibling who got stuck in some ersatz Eldritch abomination of a world... I would tear everything in it apart to get him back.

Ivalice is not an Eldritch abomination. And what do you mean "back". Marche did not go into Ivalice because Doned was in there. He found himself occupying Ivalice, alone and started tearing into the building blocks of the reality he occupied when the only one he had yet encountered was Riitz, who kindly told him to screw off, the abstract rules of their current world suited her better then the abstract rules of their previous one (which, as it happens, is also true of Marche, Doned, Mewt and Cid).

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Even if he wasn't related by blood, it's still a valid reason to save him.

Then I'll eagerly anticipate your response to my question above about FFIX's world. I'm curious as to what you feel will justify butchering all the sweet-faced hippo people and moogles.

 

[Blade]

Put it this way, do you know what the term "First Blood" means?

It means whoever "drew first blood" is the culprit.

The Soldier furthest from home is the Invader. But the Prisoner furthest from home is the Victim.

If a world decides it's going to take the place of another world and takes actions in accordance with that choice... that world is the invader.

If you get taken in to a place or location against your will, and no one supports you in escaping that location, you have every right to attempt a means of escape... it IS your RIGHT to ESCAPE. No one has the right to say you are wrong or incorrect in that position. Even if people from the same place you were originally from "betray you" for their own selfish ends.

Whether the past world is good or bad makes no difference, the past world is where they were FROM. And that world (St. Ivalice) had no intention of invading the actual "Grimoire Ivalice".

If you decide the world you're from isn't worth living in, you yourself become a foreigner with your own agenda, an ambitious "imperialist" invader.

Mortal Kombat X had a similar idea with Outworld.... Even if a Kahn rules Outworld... and a human like Erron Black decides he's gonna live in Outworld, that makes him a resident of Outworld... But if Erron Black decides he's gonna help a Kahn invade Earth Realm... that makes him an enemy of Earth Realm.

All someone like Marche wanted to do was escape the world he was put in against his will... but if the only means of escape was to destroy that world... and that world was already his enemy, then he has no choice even if he wants to save friends and family in the process.

 

[Roger]

Worlds don't make decisions. People do. And in this case, no such decision was made. They opened up a book and unwittingly unleashed this magic. After that Marche encounters people that protect their own interest as they collide against Marche's. Some of these people are evil. That does not make the whole world of Ivalice Marche's enemy. And his family in Ivalice doesn't want and arguably doesn't need saving. Doned wants to stay in Ivalice where he is healthy and able rather then be forced to go back where he is sick and crippled. Doned and Ritz felt that they had a choice about staying or not. Monthblanc and his clan had a choice about helping Marche or not. Marche surely had a choice and he decided to no sacrifice was too great and no one else's wishes or best interests needed to be considered to get what he wanted. He has a right to pursue a means of going home. But he is a huge dick.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

We're also not taking about invaders here. We're talking about bystanders who had no role in the new world's creation.

Again, it would be like ripping present-day Gaia apart -- destroying all its cities and variety of races -- in the unsubstantiated hope that doing so would bring back the old world.

 

[Flare]

I never thought Marche was much of a dick on my 1.5 playthroughs of the game tbh, but this thread puts him in a different perspective. I always thought he was being harsh, but went along with the idea that Ivalice wasn't a real world in that book and it was all a harmful illusion, but then again I've not played the game in years.
I appreciate this other viewpoint and feel inclined to play it again with the idea that Marche might be a form of 'bad guy' here.

 

[Blade]

Worlds don't make decisions. People do. And in this case, no such decision was made. They opened up a book and unwittingly unleashed this magic.

Someone decided to "make" the book function the way that it did. I blame the writers for the dark premise to be honest.

After that Marche encounters people that protect their own interest as they collide against Marche's. Some of these people are evil. That does not make the whole world of Ivalice Marche's enemy.

Perhaps not everyone was his enemy, given that Montblanc and Cid were willing to help with his situation, but the fact someone was manipulating Ritz against him was a problem that needed to be solved. The only solution was to remove the problem.

And his family in Ivalice doesn't want and arguably doesn't need saving. Doned wants to stay in Ivalice where he is healthy and able rather then be forced to go back where he is sick and crippled. Doned and Ritz felt that they had a choice about staying or not.

If a world gave you everything you wanted at the expense of someone else's suffering, would it be justified? If going back to a world where you had to suffer was more painful than living in a world where someone suffered in your place, again, would that be justified? Family and friends are abandoning (or willing to abandon) Marche for their own self interests and you want to call Marche a "dick"? Talk about the shoe on the other foot.

Monthblanc and his clan had a choice about helping Marche or not.

Yes, they had a choice and they knew the alternative was unfair and unjust, that's why they helped Marche instead of his family and friends.

Marche surely had a choice and he decided to no sacrifice was too great and no one else's wishes or best interests needed to be considered to get what he wanted. He has a right to pursue a means of going home.

He wasn't just thinking about what he wanted, he was considering what the "reality" was and what was more important. Being in denial of that reality at the expense of others was wrong, so he took the best actions and only actions he knew he had. If there were other options he might have pursued those as well.

But he is a huge dick.

YOUR OPINION, not a FACT.

We're also not taking about invaders here. We're talking about bystanders who had no role in the new world's creation.
Again, it would be like ripping present-day Gaia apart -- destroying all its cities and variety of races -- in the unsubstantiated hope that doing so would bring back the old world.

But they had a role in the sealing of that world, which is just as significant. If opening a book and closing a book is the same as destroying or creating a universe... the fault lies with the ones who created such a world with such absurd functions.
If you put an old man on life-support powered by a Potato or a Hamster on a running wheel, you should be prepared for the consequences.

 

[Roger]

Perhaps not everyone was his enemy, given that Montblanc and Cid were willing to help with his situation, but the fact someone was manipulating Ritz against him was a problem that needed to be solved. The only solution was to remove the problem.

That's dangerous thought. By that logic one could argue that Marche was employing the services of shopkeepers and clanmembers without always them having a full pictures of what is going on, thus manipulating them to achieve the end of their world. Thus Marche needs be "removed" from existence through violence as well.

If a world gave you everything you wanted at the expense of someone else's suffering, would it be justified? If going back to a world where you had to suffer was more painful than living in a world where someone suffered in your place, again, would that be justified? Family and friends are abandoning (or willing to abandon) Marche for their own self interests and you want to call Marche a "dick"? Talk about the shoe on the other foot.

Marche is not suffering, all people from St. Ivalice he encounters remark on the fact that he is thriving as a successful clanleader as well, as opposed to be shy, bullied quiet kid like he used to be. Compare his suffering to the sick and crippled status he demands his now healthy little brother returns to, or the broken home at the point of ever greater financial destitute he demands the Randells return to. It's one's self-interest weighted against the far more in peril self interest of several others.

Yes, they had a choice and they knew the alternative was unfair and unjust, that's why they helped Marche instead of his family and friends.
He wasn't just thinking about what he wanted, he was considering what the "reality" was and what was more important. Being in denial of that reality at the expense of others was wrong, so he took the best actions and only actions he knew he had. If there were other options he might have pursued those as well.

They had a choice as we've agreed, they have agency, they are as real as Marche or anyone in St. Ivalice and thus so is their world. What exactly disqualifies Ivalice as reality then? It's a real place, with people with real choices where Marche's little brother really isn't crippled and sick anymore. where Mewt's only parent really isn't an unemployed drunk in trouble with the law anymore. If Marche's thinking is that Ivalice is not reality, then neither is Montblanc and that does not appear to be his thinking.