Is Sephiroth Really Overated As People Say He Is

The Twilight Mexican

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TresDias
Do we know that the JENOVA pieces would be capable of solving that puzzle alone? The forms they take don't seem super smart or dextrous.

Don't they? Almost every time we see Sephiroth between the Nibelheim flashback and the game's final battles, it's the body of Jenova in his form. That includes the form who kills President Shinra, who impales the Midgar Zolom with a tree, who throws a Destruct materia at Cloud in Shinra Manor's basement, who wounds Tseng and elegantly sticks his sword in the floor while explaining Meteor at the temple, who murders Aerith and gestures grandly afterward, who casually kills the Sephiroth copies, etc.

CR said:
I prefer to assume that there was some anti JENOVA countermeasure we never saw in the temple, because otherwise Sephiroth is one of the least capable villains in the history of fiction.

If there were a Jenova counter-measure, we don't see it. The body of Jenova strolls around the Temple unopposed.

CR said:
Okay, but then where does she get the new body by the end of the game? And why bring it all that way just to destroy it?

I don't know why he brought it all that way just to let parts of it be destroyed, but he remarks that "This is the end of this body's usefulness" before the Jenova-DEATH battle. But that wasn't the whole body getting destroyed there either; just another part of it, as on the cargo ship and at the Forgotten Capital.

As for Jenova-SYNTHESIS, I seem to recall the Ultimania Omega saying it was made from Jenova's head and the remaining parts that had been in Shin-Ra's possession (e.g. the rest of the body and probably the cells of the copies too since Seph killed them and knocked them down into the crater).

CR said:
If he could find her on time. Maybe it's a Voldemort situation, where he can't find her unless Cloud knows.

Of course he knew where she was. He was in Cloud's dream, remember? Also, recall that Cloud was able to sense both Sephiroth and Aerith being present in the city and traced that to Aerith's precise location. Who do we think was showing him where to find her? :monster:

CR said:
Or maybe not, and I'm reaching. I just prefer to read things thinking 'if there's an obvious solution, someone has thought of it, and it doesn't work.'

It's just that Seph is an incompetently arrogant twat. Had he not been so fixated on breaking Cloud for humiliating him in Nibelheim, he could have had his victory guaranteed and been completely unopposed.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Even then he didn't earn his redemption that much is what doesn't sit well with me.
It shoud be reiterated that no one "earns" redemption. Or rather, the people who are capable of earning redemption don't need it. In order for someone to be redeemed, they need something to be redeemed from, and usually, that's something bad that they have done. The entire point of redemption is giving someone another chance after they've messed up really bad, usually after they've realized that they've done something wrong. The only way to know that if a person has "earned" their redemption is by what they do after they've been redeemed. According to SE, Genesis has realized that he messed up bad, which is something Sephrioth has never done. The only way to know if Genesis has "earned" his redemption is to see what he will do after the end of CC, which we haven't seen yet.
Taken in point Obito/Tobi who I think is really unintentionally unsympathetic.
Wait, what? Exactly how is his back-story unsymaptheic? The last we thought we saw of him in Kakashi Gadien is that he died with the knowledge that he had successfully passed down his legacy to Kakashi, who passed it down to Naruto. When instead he got picked up by the best manipulator in the entire series who managed to mind-screw with him so bad his out-look on life managed to do a 180 without him even realizing it. And he kinda didn't have a choice, but to listen to Madara... okay... now I'm seeing a lot of parallels between Sephiroth mind-screwing Cloud and Madara mind-screwing Obito...
That is as bad as how Sasuke was redeemed in my eyes.
Um... given that Sasuke did a Heel Face Turn to both Orochimaru and Madara... and he's wise enough to try to find out what the root cause of the problems with the system is... he's doing a lot better job at "earning" his redemption then a lot of characters do.
 

jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
It shoud be reiterated that no one "earns" redemption. Or rather, the people who are capable of earning redemption don't need it. In order for someone to be redeemed, they need something to be redeemed from, and usually, that's something bad that they have done. The entire point of redemption is giving someone another chance after they've messed up really bad, usually after they've realized that they've done something wrong. The only way to know that if a person has "earned" their redemption is by what they do after they've been redeemed. According to SE, Genesis has realized that he messed up bad, which is something Sephrioth has never done. The only way to know if Genesis has "earned" his redemption is to see what he will do after the end of CC, which we haven't seen yet.Wait, what? Exactly how is his back-story unsymaptheic? The last we thought we saw of him in Kakashi Gadien is that he died with the knowledge that he had successfully passed down his legacy to Kakashi, who passed it down to Naruto. When instead he got picked up by the best manipulator in the entire series who managed to mind-screw with him so bad his out-look on life managed to do a 180 without him even realizing it. And he kinda didn't have a choice, but to listen to Madara... okay... now I'm seeing a lot of parallels between Sephiroth mind-screwing Cloud and Madara mind-screwing Obito...Um... given that Sasuke did a Heel Face Turn to both Orochimaru and Madara... and he's wise enough to try to find out what the root cause of the problems with the system is... he's doing a lot better job at "earning" his redemption then a lot of characters do.

Obito/Tobi I think should have not be redeemed because I think he was at his limit. Lets just say that there is a thing of being too idealistic and sweeping away atrocities like they are just minor incidents. He orchestrated the nine tails attack, caused the death of his sensei and his wife which made Naruto an orphan, lets not forget his handiwork in the village of the mist as well and created the Fourth Shinobi War. Oh, yeah it was shown he had a choice and continued listening to the guy all because Rin died. I know Rin was important to him but that is just straight up kind of a weak excuse for all the horrid stuff he has pulled. Sorry, when Tobi was revealed as Obito it really showed that Naruto had jumped the shark.

Now Sasuke is guy in my opinion has become too much of a creator's pet and it really has hurt the story. He is pretty much a big karma Houdini who has everyone kissing his rear and praising him for stuff. Yeah, he did have a tragic past but as it shows when he was still psycho that he had crossed so many lines. Not to mention he seems to not to be paying that much for them. I think for both of them it takes so much for a character to be so irredeemable that anyway to make them do a heel face turn will just be not that believable.
 
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Roger

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Minato
The Sephiroth that cut down Tseng had already made to the end of the labyrinth. That was piece of Jenova. And Sephiroth as that piece of Jenova carried it all the way to the Crater. Nowhere was Cloud needed. At best his mindcontrol trick was useful for seperating Aerith from the rest of the group.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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TresDias
Obito/Tobi I think should have not be redeemed because I think he was at his limit. Lets just say that there is a thing of being too idealistic and sweeping away atrocities like they are just minor incidents. He orchestrated the nine tails attack, caused the death of his sensei and his wife which made Naruto an orphan, lets not forget his handiwork in the village of the mist as well and created the Fourth Shinobi War. Oh, yeah it was shown he had a choice and continued listening to the guy all because Rin died. I know Rin was important to him but that is just straight up kind of a weak excuse for all the horrid stuff he has pulled. Sorry, when Tobi was revealed as Obito it really showed that Naruto had jumped the shark.

Now Sasuke is guy in my opinion has become too much of a creator's pet and it really has hurt the story. He is pretty much a big karma Houdini who has everyone kissing his rear and praising him for stuff. Yeah, he did have a tragic past but as it shows when he was still psycho that he had crossed so many lines. Not to mention he seems to not to be paying that much for them. I think for both of them it takes so much for a character to be so irredeemable that anyway to make them do a heel face turn will just be not that believable.

Well, if a character never does anything bad, how can they be redeemed? Is being "too idealistic" even a thing? That's what idealism is, right? An extreme belief in the redeemability of anyone/anything.

Not to drag the "Naruto" discussion out further (we have a thread for that under Entertainment), but I'm confident that we haven't heard the final word on the Sasuke matter. I really don't think Sakura has forgiven him.
 

jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Well, if a character never does anything bad, how can they be redeemed? Is being "too idealistic" even a thing? That's what idealism is, right? An extreme belief in the redeemability of anyone/anything.

Not to drag the "Naruto" discussion out further (we have a thread for that under Entertainment), but I'm confident that we haven't heard the final word on the Sasuke matter. I really don't think Sakura has forgiven him.

It can be said there is a spectrum to how idealistic or cynical something or someone can be. Even someone who believes in redemption can have a limit to who it can be extended to.
 
When I first played the game I thought he was pretty cool, but I still didn't really get the appeal. I do like how the game has you chasing him around with you only really seeing the aftermath of what he can do, at first, like with Shinra HQ and the Midgar Zolom. The first disc flashback was pretty neat too (THE FIRST TIME, now I can't go through it fast enough when I replay the game), and I still like how the music kicks in when he says he's going to see Jenova. But yeah, his reason for vowing to destroy the planet makes no sense. In terms of FF villains, I prefer Kuja.

I always thought Jenova was the better big bad, though. I mean, yes, Jenova essentially just wants to destroy stuff and has no personality, but it makes up for this by being legitimately pretty terrifying. It taking the form of the Cetra or whatever is creepy as hell. I liked how in the original game it was kind of ambiguous as to who (Sephiroth or Jenova) was in control, and I always assumed Jenova was manipulating Sephiroth in the end - due to it being an eldritch planet-destroying alien virus-thing :monster: . I'm still kind of bitter about SE having Sephiroth be the mastermind. In any case, I think FFVII did a good job of having other antagonists - Hojo, Shinra, Jenova - in addition to Sephiroth.
 

Jason Tandro

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Okay I've been waiting for days to get back to my computer so I can go into the detail that I want about this thread.

First off, Sephiroth is an amazing villain. He hits the perfect level of detached and yet strangely sympathetic. By us learning about the elements that drove him to the point where he became the villain we see how his perception of the value of his humanity drove him to becoming a monster. This is a megalomania that is actually almost the exact opposite of the one that we see in Kuja from FF9.

Where Kuja desires to live through any means because he knows that he is mortal and fears death (as well as using that fear to wish to overpower death by... killing everything... good motivation there buddy), Sephiroth fully embraces his self-proclaimed status of not being human by, in a twistedly admirable way owning it and saying that he is the next step in our evolution and will become a God by destroying all that exists.

I'll admit that the initial spark is kind of weak and random (assuming you don't have the build up from Crisis Core). I often joke that Sephiroth's motivation is that he gets pissed off because he's not a real boy.

But still over all, he manages to pull off a very threatening villain. He is the only villain in all of my videogaming who I said to myself whenever he was on screen "I hope I don't have to fight him right now." He's intimidating and frankly he can be downright scary (his theme and Trail of Blood are some of the scariest bits of final fantasy music ever).

BUT, and here's where we come down to it, I do believe that he is a bit overrated. The fact of the matter is that he is not a complex villain. Not that his background storyline or even, perhaps, motivations are not complex, but his function within the story is not complex. He is going to destroy the world because he's pissed off and he will toy with Cloud because Cloud happens to be something in his way. It's implied that he toys with any person or thing that happens to get in his way so his relationship with Cloud is not as special as people might think (again, this is just my opinion).

Frankly it's hard to write a complex villain when you create a villain who is an unstoppable badass. Nothing gets in his way, therefore nothing sets him off course. It is though conflict that interesting characters are made and during the course of FF7 the only "conflict" that Sephiroth faces is in Disk 3.

You can make the unstoppable badass thing work if, for instance, you add an emotional element. Take Sin from Final Fantasy X. Without spoiling anything, We learn that Sin has a deep emotional connection to one of the characters in the game and does his evil deeds only because it is Sin's nature. We even see Sin alter its decisions because of the presence of this character. It gets to the point where we are simultaneously happy and scared to see Sin appear because we want the emotional arc to continue.

Getting back to Kuja, Kuja I felt had a weak motivation for a villain, but I enjoyed the character that was portrayed. He is an arrogant fop which makes a great counter to Zidane, but at the end of Disk 3 we finally see the humanity. We see what all the evil and villainy was building up to, a very real and very relatable fear that Kuja was simply unable to cope with. And because he was born with power, he used it to try and stop it.

Sephiroth was as emotionally detached from the situation as Kefka was in the second half of Final Fantasy 6. Sure, he toys with Cloud a bit, but we are not seeing any variation. It's almost as though Cloud's responses have no impact on Sephiroth's intended actions. Cloud is plain and simply a toy to be put away when done with to Sephiroth, not an emotional foil.

So again, not to discredit Sephiroth's great aspects as a boogeyman villain, but I feel that he could have been a much stronger villain. There is credit to the argument that he is more scary because he is less relatable and less human, and that is a great counter-argument and one that I feel really defines what they were going for. And there's no question that it worked for the game. But they the tiniest bit of humanity to Sephiroth in Crisis Core and it yields an impressive payoff under the same circumstances so perhaps he could have been even better.
 

Skan

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dief
If any of you've ever seen Stargate SG-1, I think initially SE was trying to go for a villain similar in type to Anubis, who is fucking frightening, because he is just better than almost everyone in the show. He knows more, he's stronger (well, he's got better tech and a larger army, anyways), he's ruthless, he's a bit insane (in an alien way), he can't die, and he's absolutely shrouded in mystery. I think this is basically what Sephiroth was initially conceived as.

But then SE backtracked to CC, whose theme and plot arc basically required them to humanize Sephiroth, which in turn knocks down a few of the aforementioned pillars they established for his character in FF7. Sure, he's more likeable now, but it devalued him as this particular type of villain.

It's funny 'cause usually I really like humanized villains -- they make for very compelling characters -- but for this type of villain, it just doesn't seem to work all that well, esp. since Sephiroth's original portrayal in FF7 doesn't really show off his human side at all. Creates a bit of dissonance. You expect one thing, you get another ...
 

Novus

Pro Adventurer
Sephiroth's demeanor often reminded of the gunslinger from Westworld. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmuZWN6tGM0


Btw, please respect that there were literally no pictures of Sephiroth in the official manual or anything like that when we first played the game. Sephiroth made his first appearance after Midgar and once the player is already enthralled in the game.
Sephiroth's reception is much more to with the execution and pacing of the game than his actual character. It could be the most two dimensional character ever, but still be a good villain depending on how well the story is told.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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TresDias
Were there really no pics identifying Seph in the manual? I can't really remember and don't feel like digging mine out to check.

I know he's on the paper insert behind Disc 3 standing in the flames of Nibelheim, and on the back of the case with the angel statue, but those don't identify him by name, of course.

I guess the whole incident at Nibelheim really was the first time a lot of players knew they were looking at Sephiroth.
 

Novus

Pro Adventurer
Were there really no pics identifying Seph in the manual? I can't really remember and don't feel like digging mine out to check.

I know he's on the paper insert behind Disc 3 standing in the flames of Nibelheim, and on the back of the case with the angel statue, but those don't identify him by name, of course.

I guess the whole incident at Nibelheim really was the first time a lot of players knew they were looking at Sephiroth.

I can't find any scans on it online at the moment, I'll take a photo tomorrow. But the manual is quite explicit in making the character seem mysterious, most of his traits are listed as 'unknown' with little detail as to why he is in the manual.

As for the casing, being from the UK I have a different copy from you. Mine has Aerith's funeral, Ifrit, and a random store in Junon. But I believe the manual books are the same (meaning I can't see it being altered).

Anyway, yes, it was the first time I knew it was Sephiroth. From what I recall, after completing that section I reset the game and played the entire flashback back again.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
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So many names
I do believe that the pic for Sephiroth in the manual is just a big red "Classified" stamp pr similar.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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TresDias
Now that you mention it, I remember that too. So, yeah, the manual did treat him rather mysteriously.

What a thing to try remembering the first time you saw Seph.
 

Naruhodo

Rookie Adventurer
I do believe that the pic for Sephiroth in the manual is just a big red "Classified" stamp pr similar.

Picture2.jpg


Nope. Unless it's different for Black and Green labels, but that'd be weird.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
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Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Hang on thats a manual? Not a guide?

The uk manual had no pics of seph, nor did the box iirc.
 

The Twilight Mexican

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TresDias
Yeah, that's the North American manual right there, for sure. It's all coming back to me.

Why didn't the UK manual have a pic, I wonder? Odd.
 

Naruhodo

Rookie Adventurer
Hang on thats a manual? Not a guide?

The uk manual had no pics of seph, nor did the box iirc.

It does have a small walkthrough of the first bombing mission. Because you know, Americans were just too dumb to figure out RPGs on their own back in the day. :monster:
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
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Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
@Tres I would imagine because the game goes to great pains to make him a mystery until the kalm flashback, a pic would have spoiled the surprise.
 

Lex

Administrator
^I have that manual. It's been years since I last looked at it. The first part has a small introduction. I used to love that manual for some reason. The descriptions somehow really added to the game without being too over-descriptive.

I can't believe the US version has both colour and a small walkthrough.

EDIT: After reading the manual carefully it turns out there is a tiny walkthrough toward the end of it. I also find it hilarious that there are phone numbers in the back incase you get stuck.

EDIT2: After getting my eyes on a scan of the US manual, it appears it's an actual walkthrough. The EU version is a paragraph long.

It's a real shame Piggyback weren't around at the time of VII's release, I had to suffer with the terribad BradyGames guide for years. Thinking about not having Piggyback for it still upsets me greatly.
 
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Jason Tandro

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Jason Tandro, Doc Brown, Santa Christ, FearAddict, Thibault Stormrunner, RN: Micah Rodney
On the topic of game guides when we were broke preteens i had this guide for a game I'd only played the demo of: Final Fantasy VIII. But it wasnt like an actual game guide it was about the size of a small Scholastic Magazine, completely printed on like newspaper print. I remember Blockbuster was giving them out as some promotion and my sister Amity worked there which is how we got it in the first place. Has anybody ever seen that, know what I'm talking about or especially knows where I can get one?
Nostalgia.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Did it have pictures? I had an unofficial ff7 guide that included amano and nomura artwork. About a4 size.

I also had a tiny pocket guide that was all text, and must have been for import because loss of the characters names and materia names were mistranslated.

Tbh I think lots of game mags published their own unofficial guides on the side, chances are thats what you had.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
One thing about Sephiroth is that he can be so bishonen and manly at the same time.
 
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