Is Zack partially to blame for what happened to Cloud?

[The Twilight Mexican]

"Common sense is just the list of prejudices one acquires in their lifetime."

What the OP is saying is a completely sound argument.

Let's say you have a friend who isn't very good at math. They voice their concern that they might fail a test. You, in an attempt to be nice, tell them that they can do it if they try. Your friend responds, "Oh, so you're saying I don't TRY?!" & storms off in a huff.

You did not plan to do so, & you might make the argument that you weren't the main factor, but you DID contribute to your friend's bad mood.

I don't see where you guys get the idea that, just because it wasn't Zack's intention to do any harm, it means that he didn't. That's not the way it works. Everything is not going to turn out precisely the way one intends for it to. In fact, it's where we get the saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

Putting aside the person in your analogy being an overly-sensitive twat, I don't see where it's comparable at all. The well-intended friend in your analogy was trying to make an impact on the other person's outlook on their math test, whereas Zack wasn't even trying to have an effect on Cloud's mind.

Shit just happened. You can say that Zack influenced Cloud's psyche, sure, but when one starts using loaded words like "blame" and "fault"? Well, shit's gotten ridiculous then.

Hell, one might as well blame Zack for dying in that case.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Hell, one might as well blame Zack for dying in that case.

Zack, you fucker, how dare you to die???!!!!

Spoiler: IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT YOU GOT A BULLET IN YOUR HEAD! I HATE YOU!!!!!

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Konneh: No, that's still chaos theory. That's a different subject altogether. And you may think it's "silly" or whatever, but it's pretty silly to berate someone when they're absolutely right.

Batman: It's degrees of responsibility. I think you're failing to realize here that nobody is saying Zack is more responsible than Hojo, Jenova, or any of those characters. But people might disagree with you that Cloud is more responsible. They would argue that you're blaming the victim, which is wrong. Cloud's psychosis definitely IS a result of all the shit that happened to him, but that's the point. Zack's suggestions were one of those things.

Tres: No, it's not ridiculous. Having responsibility for fucking something up does not mean you're an inherently bad person. It's not loaded terminology at all. As for your choice of analogies, I would say that you're definitely wrong on the first account. If "you are my living legacy" is NOT meant to leave an impression on Cloud's mind, I don't what the Hell is. Second of all, there is a difference between instilling expectations in someone &--well, dying.

I like Zack. I like him even more since Crisis Core. Accepting this viewpoint as valid, which it IS, does not taint my opinion of him at all.

 

[Max Payne]

Batman: It's degrees of responsibility. I think you're failing to realize here that nobody is saying Zack is more responsible than Hojo, Jenova, or any of those characters. But people might disagree with you that Cloud is more responsible. They would argue that you're blaming the victim, which is wrong. Cloud's psychosis definitely IS a result of all the shit that happened to him, but that's the point. Zack's suggestions were one of those things.

Durr, I already said it wasn't Cloud's fault because he was already broken.

Zack is not at fault for Cloud imprinting on him, and he's not responsible for him losing it. He did not "help his fucked up mind" Cloud's already broken psyche took everything his friend said and ran with it as a result of Jenova and Hojo.

Zack is not responsible with what Cloud did with what he said, and neither is Cloud.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I guess it might be an issue of semantics? Zack isn't at 'fault' or 'responsible' for what happened to Cloud, but one could argue that things would be different (not better, not worse, just different) if a different set of events happened; i.e. Zack not telling him those things.

It just looks like we're arguing over the semantics of 'this even contributed to that event'. In any case, I understand both sides viewpoints.

 

[Max Payne]

I guess it might be an issue of semantics? Zack isn't at 'fault' or 'responsible' for what happened to Cloud, but one could argue that things would be different (not better, not worse, just different) if a different set of events happened; i.e. Zack not telling him those things.

It just looks like we're arguing over the semantics of 'this even contributed to that event'. In any case, I understand both sides viewpoints.

It wasn't just what Zack told him, hell he was imprinted with Zack's memories well before Zack got his little speech elaborated on before he died in CC.

Whether Zack had said all that shit about dreams or not, Cloud would have still been fucked up.

At most Zack unintentionally influenced Cloud's current condition, but it was the Jenova cells that caused him to try and glomp Zack's memories and personality.

But "blame"? Horseshit man.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Of course, of course. I suppose we should just narrow it down to this

At most Zack unintentionally influenced Cloud's current condition

I figure that's what Neo and the others were trying to say, but were using the wrong words to get their point across.

 

[Max Payne]

That ain't what the OP was saying, which is what Neo was backing up, but ok then.

 

[linegenrou]

That ain't what the OP was saying, which is what Neo was backing up, but ok then.

No.I made it clear on one of my last posts that Zack wasn't to blame,as in he didn't influence Cloud intentionally.But he did anyway.
I thought that was pretty much obvious during my responses in the middle of all the flaming I got...

 

[Cat Rage Room]

So it was just a misunderstanding, hooray, we're leveling with each other.

 

[ForceStealer]

No,he said HE was the one to become a mercenary.
After that,he said to Cloud: "I won't leave you behind...we're friends right?"

And then immediately after that he says, "Mercenaries, Cloud. That's what you and me are gonna be."

I've wondered if Zack actually saw Cloud's potential or he was just that nice of a guy. He gave Cloud his sword and told him that he was his living legacy, but did he really believe that he had the skill to use it? Sure he killed Sephiroth, but that was a fit of rage (not to mention a sneak attack). And the BC Turk/Cissnei saw Cloud wield a sword well, but I don't think Zack had.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean Zack was "settling" for Cloud as the only one around. I absolutely think Zack knew that Cloud had a good heart and that that was enough to carry on Zack's good-hearted legacy, but I wonder if he had any idea Cloud would become the...superhuman he became, lol.

 

[Max Payne]

No.I made it clear on one of my last posts that Zack wasn't to blame,as in he didn't influence Cloud intentionally.But he did anyway.

No, NB referenced the OP.

I thought that was pretty much obvious during my responses in the middle of all the flaming I got...

You didn't get flamed. People were just being less than civil.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

And then immediately after that he says, "Mercenaries, Cloud. That's what you and me are gonna be."

I've wondered if Zack actually saw Cloud's potential or he was just that nice of a guy. He gave Cloud his sword and told him that he was his living legacy, but did he really believe that he had the skill to use it? Sure he killed Sephiroth, but that was a fit of rage (not to mention a sneak attack). And the BC Turk/Cissnei saw Cloud wield a sword well, but I don't think Zack had.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean Zack was "settling" for Cloud as the only one around. I absolutely think Zack knew that Cloud had a good heart and that that was enough to carry on Zack's good-hearted legacy, but I wonder if he had any idea Cloud would become the...superhuman he became, lol.

I think Zack certainly saw potential in Cloud, after all, he did spend all of those years with him, so I figure he has an idea of what he's capable of.

 

[Max Payne]

Sure he killed Sephiroth, but that was a fit of rage (not to mention a sneak attack).

Dood, I don't care how angry I get, I'm not going to be able to pick a sword as wide as my torso and as long as a person.

 

[linegenrou]

No, NB referenced the OP.


You didn't get flamed. People were just being less than civil.

And because they didn't understand.Funny

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Dood, I don't care how angry I get, I'm not going to be able to pick a sword as wide as my torso and as long as a person.

It's sort of weird though, would that same logic apply in the world of FF7 in terms of what ordinary people are capable of? Keep in mind that unenhanced people like Cid and Yuffie are walking around doing superhuman shit, and hell.

Not to take anything away from Cloud, of course.

 

[Max Payne]

It's sort of weird though, would that same logic apply in the world of FF7 in terms of what ordinary people are capable of? Keep in mind that unenhanced people like Cid and Yuffie are walking around doing superhuman shit, and hell.

Not to take anything away from Cloud, of course.

They did go out of their way to state that normal people can't wield that thing.

All of Avalanche is obviously abnormal. Yuffie doesn't count, she's a ninja, japan faps furiously to the power of the ninja.

I mean, there's a barometer for what's normal among the populous clearly. I mean there'd be more folks like them if there wasn't.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

They did go out of their way to state that normal people can't wield that thing.

Was it elaborated that 'wield' is in the context of 'fight with it effectively' or 'pick it up at all to any degree?'

I mean don't get me wrong, Cloud not only picking up the Buster Sword, getting into a fighting stance, running up the stairs, and leaping into the air is straight up gifted abnormal shit, but on the other hand, I always figured that being fiction, people in FF7's world has a higher threshold for what they could do that the 'real world' doesn't have, but I guess that goes without saying, huh?

 

[Max Payne]

Was it elaborated that 'wield' is in the context of 'fight with it effectively' or 'pick it up at all to any degree?'

I mean don't get me wrong, Cloud not only picking up the Buster Sword, getting into a fighting stance, running up the stairs, and leaping into the air is straight up gifted abnormal shit, but on the other hand, I always figured that being fiction, people in FF7's world has a higher threshold for what they could do that the 'real world' doesn't have, but I guess that goes without saying, huh?

The thing is, when you think about it that way, why does Shinra's soldiers all suck so much? Cloud was the only one with any real talent. You don't see anyone else outside of SOLDIER in their armed forces doing anything really impressive.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I wondered the same thing. Probably because they never really get any chance to, I figured. Just like in the real world military, latent talent can and has been restricted by strict protocol and 'all you need to do is shoot where I tell you to shoot, soldier'. Those individuals who do have the insight to recognize their own talent (or those who are lucky enough to have their talent recognized by others) are probably the a lot of the ones who are recommended and sign up for SOLDIER in the first place.

I figure that while the people in FF7's world have a higher ceiling of strength and ability than in the real world (it being fiction and all), most people still start off at the bottom and talent has to be cultivated, recognized, and given some chance and opportunity to present itself.

 

[Max Payne]

I wondered the same thing. Probably because they never really get any chance to, I figured. Just like in the real world military, latent talent can and has been restricted by strict protocol and 'all you need to do is shoot where I tell you to shoot, soldier'. Those individuals who do have the insight to recognize their own talent (or those who are lucky enough to have their talent recognized by others) are probably the a lot of the ones who are recommended and sign up for SOLDIER in the first place.

But ALL of them sucking save for one? I don't think so man, that's a pretty big stretch.

I figure that while the people in FF7's world have a higher ceiling of strength and ability than in the real world (it being fiction and all), most people still start off at the bottom and talent has to be cultivated, recognized, and given some chance and opportunity to present itself.

I don't think so. It seems as though, either you have it, or you don't for them. Like they're just born differently from the average person, because in the context of what we see of their world, that kind of strength just isn't common among the populace and a lot of the people see it as downright weird when someone does have it.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

But ALL of them sucking save for one? I don't think so man, that's a pretty big stretch.

Who says all of them? It's just like in the real world, the ones that don't, they're still at the bottom, the ones that do have talent, they're either; 1. Not at the bottom because they got promoted and are kicking ass somewhere 2. They do have some degree of above average talent but it never got recognized. Keep in mind that Cloud was in this very same position himself, he could have very well gone his whole life as a career Shinra soldier without ever displaying the immense potential he has, simply because nothing happened to necessitate it.

I don't think so. It seems as though, either you have it, or you don't for them. Like they're just born differently from the average person, because in the context of what we see of their world, that kind of strength just isn't common among the populace and a lot of the people see it as downright weird when someone does have it.

Of course some people have it and some people are just talentless a fighting. I'm not saying that everyone in the world of FF7 has the potential to become superhuman. And even to those that do have some talent for being above average, there are certain degrees like that as well.

Of course this is very uncommon, but it seems to be there in certain degrees. I'm not saying that the world of FF7 is filled with a bunch of latent Clouds, I'm just saying that it being a fictional world, the ceiling for 'how strong can an average person be'? is a bit higher.

 

[Max Payne]

Who says all of them? It's just like in the real world, the ones that don't, they're still at the bottom, the ones that do have talent, they're either; 1. Not at the bottom because they got promoted and are kicking ass somewhere 2. They do have some degree of above average talent but it never got recognized. Keep in mind that Cloud was in this very same position himself, he could have very well gone his whole life as a career Shinra soldier without ever displaying the immense potential he has, simply because nothing happened to necessitate it

After all of those battles, after all of the shit that went on man, the Shinra MP are just cannon fodder. None of them display any real talent like Cloud has. None of them rose out of those situations like Cloud did.

Of course some people have it and some people are just talentless a fighting. I'm not saying that everyone in the world of FF7 has the potential to become superhuman. And even to those that do have some talent for being above average, there are certain degrees like that as well.

Of course this is very uncommon, but it seems to be there in certain degrees. I'm not saying that the world of FF7 is filled with a bunch of latent Clouds, I'm just saying that it being a fictional world, the ceiling for 'how strong can an average person be'? is a bit higher.

The average person in FF7 gets curbstomped pretty ofter in FF7 and throughout the compilation. I don't think it's any higher than it is in the real world.

Part of the reason Avalanche might be so strong though, is that they were decked out with all kinds of superpowerful materia that enhanced their performance in combat quite a bit, that shit probably wound up having a lasting effect on them.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

After all of those battles, after all of the shit that went on man, the Shinra MP are just cannon fodder. None of them display any real talent like Cloud has. None of them rose out of those situations like Cloud did.

Of course, he is Cloud after all. I'm not comparing any Shinra MP to Cloud in that sense. Cloud is a freakish, exception of exceptions.

The average person in FF7 gets curbstomped pretty ofter in FF7 and throughout the compilation. I don't think it's any higher than it is in the real world.

Do they? The average person in FF7 is living safely in their houses with the Shinra Army to protect them. Anything that gets past that safety net leads those very same people to revert to running and screaming.

 

[Celes Chere]

were being the most prominent word in this sentence. Oh snap.

Stfu Shu, but Atem says no, so I will just have to pwn your ass over on TFC. Lol. ♥