Ivalice Alliance/the Final Fantasy Tactics Page

[Neo Bahamut]

Two topic ideas for the price of one. Cuts down on superfluous posting.

Okay, here's my deal with Ivalice Alliance: It contains the XII games, the Tactics Advanced games, Tactics, & some other shit I don't remember.

Why does it never get targeted for bitching like the Compilation? It has over 9000 games to its name, & they don't even carry out a coherent storyline. Seriously, what the Hell do ANY of them have to do with Tactics?

That said, the only game in it that I like is Final Fantasy Tactics. I was ecstatic when War of the Lions came out, immediately got it, & would probably have beaten everything already, if I hadn't run out of save files. I'm still not sure what to do with that. I'll get back to it eventually.

So, I guess this is to talk about the general Ivalice Alliance thing & Tactics. There's already a thread about XII, so I see no need to devote a huge amount of conversation to it.

Besides, what I really want is to see how many Tactics fans we have.

 

[null.]

I love FFT, though I haven't played it in ages. It was actually halfway challenging in places.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I played FFTA and it wasn't that bad. Though usually when I want a turn-based strategy game, I'm gonna turn to Nippon Ichi, who actually knows how to do it.

 

[null.]

There's always room for improvement. I rather enjoyed the Vandal Hearts simultaneous turn system. That's something I'd like to see in future FFT incarnations.

 

[Strangelove]

I keep trying to finish off FFT (from the start of Chapter 4), but there's a gap between my characters now and even random battles are too much for me. Because I'm not very good

But now I'll need to replay it from the beginning just to remember what happened in it.

 

[null.]

Sounds like you leveled up too fast, old chap. Just hang in until you get Orlandu, at which point you're basically invincible.

 

[Strangelove]

I think it was that fight at the end of Chapter 3 where you have to use Ramza on his own. (You know the one I mean. Because I don't remember what the guy was called.) I remember levelling up for that, which probably what caused it. I just wish I could find some weak random enemies to go level up with/special characters so I won't have to bother, because I enjoyed it and would like to see how it ends.

 

[Madame Mayor]

I didn't like FFT's gameplay, but I loved FFTA and FFTA2. The only thing I wished was that they weren't handhelds. I played FFTA on my gamecube back in the day.

 

[Strangelove]

I actually have FFTA2 that I haven't started, although I'm kind of glad because I recently learnt that having FFTA in the DS when you start the game gives you a clan ability and I would have missed out on that

 

[ForceStealer]

Why does it never get targeted for bitching like the Compilation? It has over 9000 games to its name, & they don't even carry out a coherent storyline. Seriously, what the Hell do ANY of them have to do with Tactics?

Probably because it doesn't carry a clear storyline. Nobody knows enough about how its supposed to work to bitch about inconsistencies.

That said, the only game in it that I like is Final Fantasy Tactics.

This. I adore Tactics. It was actually the first Final Fantasy I played after FF7. Back then I really didn't get the story and got lost in all the names and liked it anyway. But replaying it in the War of the Lions release, between both my age and the new translation, I really came to enjoy it. I really truly felt bad for Ramza.

Spoiler

I know he didn't want recognition, but still, he deserved it. After having every faction against him and his comrades and fending them all off. And then not to even be remembered for so long...

The Tactics Advance games' stories aren't on nearly the scale of FFT and I really don't care about little kids. The battle system also seemed more restrictive to me, between the race-limited classes and laws.

FFXII certainly came the closest to matching the storytelling greatness of Tactics', but I've discussed elsewhere, I never cared for any of XII's characters nearly as much as I cared about Ramza.

Vagrant Story sounds promising, but the battle system has prevented me from getting very far. But I can't tell if its bad or if I just suck at it. Both are entirely possible

 

[Neo Bahamut]

I think it was that fight at the end of Chapter 3 where you have to use Ramza on his own. (You know the one I mean. Because I don't remember what the guy was called.) I remember levelling up for that, which probably what caused it. I just wish I could find some weak random enemies to go level up with/special characters so I won't have to bother, because I enjoyed it and would like to see how it ends.

That battle's a lot easier than it sounds. You can win it with Ramza's squire abilities. It's a bit tricky, because of how much Wiegraf will rape you with his Holy Sword abilities, but if you use focus & tailwind a bunch of times, you'll have a Ramza who takes 20 turns in a row & does 999 damage per strike. Insta-win against Wiegraf, & Belias will only take a few hits.

ForceStealer pretty much voices my opinion on the rest of this shit. Although, I speak with far more disdain about XII. Which is odd, because I can remember defending it, way back when. But then, I started to get out of Rabanastre, & started going, "WTF is this shit?" to everything. Particularly the Espers.

 

[The Joker]

FFTA2GotR wasn't too bad. FFTWotL was good. It was nice to be able to play FFT again...since the only other copy I have access to, is a burned copy, and my modded PSX has defentely seen better days. >.<

 

[Masamune]

Why does it never get targeted for bitching like the Compilation?

Because it isn't as popular as FFVII?


Here's my two cents -

FFXII: Superb. One of the most complete and engrossing Final Fantasy games of the series. It reinvented the franchise, installed a seamless battle system, and produced a plot which doesn't insult the audience.

FFT: Never played it. Seriously. The original never made it to Europe, and I don't own or want a PSP, so I've missed out there.

FFXII - RW: I don't think they knew what kind of system they wanted to implement and got stuck between two. And it's easy to get zergrushed. By licensing it to Nintendo, they also dumbed down the plot.

FFT A2: Haven't played it, and I played the first one without ever finishing it. It felt bland to me, and I'm usually a fan of tactical RPGs.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

FFXII: Superb. One of the most complete and engrossing Final Fantasy games of the series. It reinvented the franchise, installed a seamless battle system, and produced a plot which doesn't insult the audience.

I disagree entirely. But, I'll stick to the facts while I bitch:

1) It didn't reinvent the franchise. FFXIII seems to have gone back to ATB.

2) The battle system wasn't seamless. There were a LOT of problems with it. Everything from gambits to Espers to Quickenings to the fact that a T-rex could bite you while ten feet away had some sort of bug in it. This is to be expected from an experimental fighting system, I'm just saying that it was hardly without flaw. Many people prefer other battle systems to it.

3) I felt insulted by the plot. I kept asking myself, "...Why?" Like, for instance, Vayne is essentially a good guy. His goals are noble. And he randomly kills his relatives. That seemed to have been done JUST so you could hate him as a villain. It doesn't fit.

FFT: Never played it. Seriously. The original never made it to Europe, and I don't own or want a PSP, so I've missed out there.

A damn shame.

 

[Masamune]

1) It didn't reinvent the franchise. FFXIII seems to have gone back to ATB.

It reinvented the franchise at the time, instead of sticking with the usual combat system.

2) The battle system wasn't seamless. There were a LOT of problems with it. Everything from gambits to Espers to Quickenings to the fact that a T-rex could bite you while ten feet away had some sort of bug in it. This is to be expected from an experimental fighting system, I'm just saying that it was hardly without flaw. Many people prefer other battle systems to it.

I don't know if that's poor programming or rather to avoid evading combat too easily. I never had a problem with it.

What's up with Quickenings?

Espers, as I've said before, are to be used tactically whereas in previous games they're mainly at your disposal for cheap shots.

3) I felt insulted by the plot. I kept asking myself, "...Why?" Like, for instance, Vayne is essentially a good guy. His goals are noble. And he randomly kills his relatives. That seemed to have been done JUST so you could hate him as a villain. It doesn't fit.

Seriously? It's self-explanatory why Vayne first murdered his brothers and then his father. There's nothing random about it whatsoever. Vayne wants hegemony for himself, but his own flesh and blood were standing in his way, therefore he removed them.

Vayne's goals were essentially noble, but his methods were still cunning and merciless. He's a villain as good as any.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

1) That wouldn't be "reinventing" it, though. It'd be more of a "temporary modification," to keep up with the technology metaphor.

2) Essentially, Quickenings go from being WAY overpowered (& the only decent weapons against bosses) to complete shit (against bosses). So...you're kinda fucked when you start running into things like dragons, & their ridiculously high defense. At the very least, the battles become quite lengthy. Plus, there's that luck element people hate, though that doesn't bother me as much. As for Espers, I get the idea of them, but it failed miserably. I spent most of the summon time babysitting the damn things. And, when I tried to be tactical, it blew up in my face for no apparent reason. :Belias will take this fire hit, right? He IS in front of me, afterall..." *charred Ashe.* "Shit, I can't fight 20-something bats at once! I got it, Hellfire--the fuck?! It only took out 1!"

3) It still seems to me like Vayne's characteristics don't match up properly. The point is, I don't like the story. Partly because I don't like the characters. Mostly because they're all rather poorly developed.

...Son of a bitch, I just turned this thread into an argument on the merits of FFXII!

 

[Masamune]

1) That wouldn't be "reinventing" it, though. It'd be more of a "temporary modification," to keep up with the technology metaphor.

Nope, my terminology works.

2. reinvent - create anew and make over

2) Essentially, Quickenings go from being WAY overpowered (& the only decent weapons against bosses) to complete shit (against bosses). So...you're kinda fucked when you start running into things like dragons, & their ridiculously high defense. At the very least, the battles become quite lengthy. Plus, there's that luck element people hate, though that doesn't bother me as much.

Then you weren't using the Quickenings effectively, because I never had that problem. Also, it would be a terrible learning curve if Quickenings were still overpowered later in the game. What kind of challenge would there be?

Check out this guide, that is if you still have an interest in the game:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/459841/46039

As for Espers, I get the idea of them, but it failed miserably. I spent most of the summon time babysitting the damn things. And, when I tried to be tactical, it blew up in my face for no apparent reason. :Belias will take this fire hit, right? He IS in front of me, afterall..." *charred Ashe.* "Shit, I can't fight 20-something bats at once! I got it, Hellfire--the fuck?! It only took out 1!"

Then you used the wrong tactics.

Again, if you're interested:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/459841/46306

3) It still seems to me like Vayne's characteristics don't match up properly. The point is, I don't like the story. Partly because I don't like the characters. Mostly because they're all rather poorly developed.

That's because you don't understand the characters - or Vayne at least. You've said his character isn't congruent; then do explain why? Otherwise no one is going to take you seriously.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

1) Eh. Whatever.

2) Unfortunately, I don't. And you say I used the wrong tactics, I say I'm not wasting my MP to summon something that is going to get me killed 90% of the time, have no beneficial effect 5% of the time, waste my time 3% of the time, call me rude names 1.5% of the time. The other .5% of the time goes of without a hitch.

3) Vayne is developed. Ill-conceived, but developed all the same. And the whole damn game was a case of, "Why the Hell am I doing this"? after a while. What, on Earth, is so wrong with the Occuria, besides the fact that they'll total dicks? Fundie Mode/it's like when the atheists got prayer taken out of school/Fundie Mode.

...The Hell was that? ...Anyway, I'd really rather not talk about 12. Why? Because when I use "talk" & "XII" in the same sentence, "talk" suddenly changes into "rant for 30-something pages."

 

[Masamune]

2) Unfortunately, I don't. And you say I used the wrong tactics, I say I'm not wasting my MP to summon something that is going to get me killed 90% of the time, have no beneficial effect 5% of the time, waste my time 3% of the time, call me rude names 1.5% of the time. The other .5% of the time goes of without a hitch.

If you don't want to use them tactically, then don't bitch about it. I think the problem here is we're accustomed to summons being powerhouses instead of a strategic chess-pieces.

3) Vayne is developed. Ill-conceived, but developed all the same. And the whole damn game was a case of, "Why the Hell am I doing this"? after a while. What, on Earth, is so wrong with the Occuria, besides the fact that they'll total dicks? Fundie Mode/it's like when the atheists got prayer taken out of school/Fundie Mode.

Again, I have to question whether you were paying attention. The enemy was the Empire war machine. Dalmasca wanted its freedom after being annexed by enemy forces. The Occuria use their magicks to control the destiny of mankind, but initially Ashe is more concerned with revenge. Then she discovers the worthlessness of it all, and rejects their offerings. It's a refreshing twist to an FF, that the heroes and villains actually fulfil the same purpose.

And I'll reiterate: If you're not going to explain why Vayne is incongruous/ill-conceived, then you have no argument to make.

...The Hell was that? ...Anyway, I'd really rather not talk about 12. Why? Because when I use "talk" & "XII" in the same sentence, "talk" suddenly changes into "rant for 30-something pages."

If you don't want to talk about it, then please don't dispute my opinion with your so-called "facts", when they're actually your own shortcomings understanding the game.

 

[Madame Mayor]

What, on Earth, is so wrong with the Occuria

Other than the fact that they control Ivalice history by manipulating it's leaders?

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Balthea: And everything was going pretty well until Archadia decided, "Fuck that noise."

Masamune: I think you should find a way to play FFT. Beat it, then talk to me about strategic chess pieces. I've gotten criticisms like this before. I have no interest in entertaining the equivalent of, "Well, you just don't like the game because you suck at it!" Really, you talk about arguments, but then you sit there & make baseless accusations like, "You just want the summons to be really powerful!" Really? Can you prove that?

 

[Madame Mayor]

And everything was going pretty well until Archadia decided, "Fuck that noise."

That's why it's not completely black and white, and therefore an interesting story. What's better, freedom of destiny or destiny being controlled for what certain beings feel is better (not necessarily what is better)?

Beat it, then talk to me about strategic chess pieces.

TBH, even though I know this opinion isn't popular among FF fans, I found FFT to be more like playing chess against a super computer. You can win, but the AI is so frustrating to play against because it feels like every other move they do is cheap. You have to play the battles perfectly and one mistake means you'll lose. It's why I like the Advance games better, the AI wasn't so perfect and one little mistake didn't cost you the entire battle. The game ended up feeling more like homework and that's when I put it down. The story so far wasn't very interesting for me either to want to push forward.

But hey, it's just my opinion of a game I haven't played in years.

 

[Masamune]

Really, you talk about arguments, but then you sit there & make baseless accusations like, "You just want the summons to be really powerful!" Really? Can you prove that?

Hardly baseless. Yours is a prevailing issue I've heard from XII naysayers, who argue the Espers are pointless - without bothering to understand how to use them effectively. Fans are accustomed to whipping out a summon, chargin' tha laser, and rinse repeating. Now when an FF actually incorporates them into the atmosphere of the game, it gets criticized.

 

[ForceStealer]

TBH, even though I know this opinion isn't popular among FF fans, I found FFT to be more like playing chess against a super computer. You can win, but the AI is so frustrating to play against because it feels like every other move they do is cheap. You have to play the battles perfectly and one mistake means you'll lose. It's why I like the Advance games better, the AI wasn't so perfect and one little mistake didn't cost you the entire battle. The game ended up feeling more like homework and that's when I put it down. The story so far wasn't very interesting for me either to want to push forward.

It isn't nearly that punishing. I've managed to fight back from many stupid mistakes. I did make the occasional mistake that may have cost me the battle, but I've done that in normal RPGs too. In fact, because you have so much more time, I think its probably easier to come back from a bad mistake than it is in one of the ATB games. You also have more characters to cover for any mistakes.
I'm not trying to make a "you just suck" argument, I'm trying to say give it another shot and see if you still feel that way.

Question though, does anyone know if the difficulty was ramped up for War of the Lions. I got through it without ever getting really stuck, but I thought it was pretty challenging and I knew a lot of the ins and outs of character classes. I knew none of that when I played the game as an early teenager and I beat it then, so I wonder if they made it harder?

And yeah Masamune, you really do need to play Tactics. Borrow someone's PSP, emulate it, whatever. You won't regret it.

 

[Madame Mayor]

I'm not trying to make a "you just suck" argument, I'm trying to say give it another shot and see if you still feel that way.

It's why I said it was just an opinion, and it was more to silence the current argument at hand about FFXII saying, "Well, if it's not your type of game of course you'll think it's broken or stupid, etc."

I really enjoyed FFXII and felt the battles were really smooth, worked well with the way I think, etc. Not so much with Tactics, hence why I didn't like it. However, I don't necessarily think everyone who likes it is stupid for thinking so. If you enjoyed playing the game, then it was a good game. That is the purpose of games after all.

I don't know when I'll get a chance to play it again, sold my PSP and my PS and I doubt it emulated on a computer is very good at all. So I don't think I'll be giving it another shot any time soon.