Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Yeah, for all that the game had various plot points of cause and effect relating to time travel, any wider moral considerations just kind of slid by without concern. Traveling from one historical period to the next was treated more like a trip to the market.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Assuming I understood correctly, why does Barthandelus then have both emotions and a voice?

The original God-like Fal'Cie do not have voices. Pulse, Lindzei, Etro and Bhunivelze.

Barthandelus is a Fal'cie created by Lindzei who has the form of a human. Thus, he can emulate human speech and existence. He does not have "emotions" in the traditional sense. He has personality and expression. However, he does not have a human heart. Fal'cie do not have hearts of chaos. They have life energy. They have souls. They have sentience. They merely lack the intrinsic spark of humanity and uniqueness that Chaos imbues into life forms like humans.

Must have been hell to try to translate in fairness. We have Etro's literal heart, which is not her metaphyical heart, which is different from the English concept of heart at motivation/feelings, and we've got to fit all these concepts into the same scene...

Etro has a heart, it's just not a human heart. It is not from Chaos, it is her own beating heart. The heart she imparted to Chaos would be the equivalent to the organ that sustains one's life. She gave it to Caius as a gift.

I loved XIII's worldbuilding, but then the sequel moved on and built a new world, when I still wanted to play with the old one.

Any story with 'meddling with the timestream' as its premise needs to be complicated and confusing, but the fact that all our lead characters randomly independently started time travelling got increasingly hard to credit. Just...casually abandoning all their old friends to die of old age without ever seeing them again didn't sit well with me.

No one but the main characters time traveled, and they didn't "abandon" them to die of old age. They time traveled in order to protect existence from collapsing on itself. And it's not treated "casually" it's just capable to be done thanks to having the power of Etro and the use of time gates. The whole premise of the plot is to ostensibly correct/fix the timeline. Not treat it like a toy. You're resolving and trying to undo paradoxes, so I'm not sure how that's treating it lightly.

The time travel of FFXIII-2 is pretty consistent, save for the actual Paradox endings which aren't treated as canon outcomes. The whole incident with Alyssa makes it clear what happens to other timeline's upon resolution; all paradoxes and branching timelines collapse, leaving the original true timeline which continues to the future endpoint in 500AF and beyond. Everything resolves itself and paradoxes are undone. The meaning behind this is that they essentially blink out of existence. When Serah and Noel made a change to essentially fix the timeline, that resolution stabilizes that outcome and allows it to be the "true" timeline.

Yeah, for all that the game had various plot points of cause and effect relating to time travel, any wider moral considerations just kind of slid by without concern. Traveling from one historical period to the next was treated more like a trip to the market.

What wider moral considerations were treated without concern? The entire premise of Noel and Serah's adventure was to save the timeline and the future from nonexistence. The events they tried to undo and correct were ultimately paradox timelines that were made thanks to Caius himself meddling and trying to crash the timeline. Alyssa's state as a paradoxical existence was never known to Noel or Serah because she concealed it, so they couldn't have even known resolving the paradox would have ended her. In Fragments After, Hope figured that out after they left upon visiting Augusta Tower, however Alyssa made a crucial mistake and ended her own existence, trying to kill Hope.

Because Hope would have actually saved her.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
What wider moral considerations were treated without concern? The entire premise of Noel and Serah's adventure was to save the timeline and the future from nonexistence.
So was the adventure in "Chrono Trigger," but see the fallout from that in "Radical Dreamers" and "Chrono Cross." :monster:

Alyssa's state as a paradoxical existence was never known to Noel or Serah because she concealed it, so they couldn't have even known resolving the paradox would have ended her.

That's kind of the point being made, though. They couldn't know what the precise results would be other than erased events, people, etc.

Obviously the narrative didn't have any interest in exploring these ramifications in any deeper sense, so we're presumably meant to take it as unquestionably the right decision every time they set out to resolve a paradox -- but that makes the narrative decision to show that there are deeper considerations afoot all the more odd since they then still go unconsidered.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
So was the adventure in "Chrono Trigger," but see the fallout from that in "Radical Dreamers" and "Chrono Cross." :monster:

I mean, the numerous deaths and terrible fates that befell Yeul and motivated Caius to blow up time itself is actually pretty similar. Not to mention Serah's own slicing of her lifespan. With every correction they made to save the future from ruin, they either shaved off the life of a Yeul and Serah herself, or hardened the resolve of Caius to work harder at blowing up the timeline. So in terms of consequences for everything they did, yeah they definitely went there.

The catastrophic world ending event at what was originally going to be 400 AF in Academia is exactly that. Because Hope got the idea of utilizing an artificially created Fal'cie capable of managing and manipulating time thanks to Serah and Noel being able to do it and fixing the future. That and the whole Augusta Tower quest was them trying to not make things worst and fix the unintended consequence of their travels.

And then of course there's the hilarity and shit with Atlas.

That's kind of the point being made, though. They couldn't know what the precise results would be other than erased events, people, etc.

You're right they couldn't, but at the same time they knew what would happen if they did nothing. Cocoon crashes into Pulse. Humanity ends, and Caius gets to spend eternity with Yeul in a world without time. I mean, there weren't a lot of other options here. Caius was intent on either killing Etro, or killing off humanity to bust open Etro's Gate and end humanity and existence that way. He was a man on a mission with absolutely all the time in the world on his hands.

Obviously the narrative didn't have any interest in exploring these ramifications in any deeper sense, so we're presumably meant to take it as unquestionably the right decision every time they set out to resolve a paradox -- but that makes the narrative decision to show that there are deeper considerations afoot all the more odd since they then still go unconsidered.

Well again, that's what I meant when I referred to Alyssa and the arc with Academia in 400 AF, Augusta Tower, etc. You see those questions being asked and examined, which is why those areas are sorta the most difficult and understandably opaque areas of the story.

Ironically, the non-linear, open exploratory style of XIII-2 which players wanted after XIII, sorta ended up harming the game's execution of it's story because events that would have benefited being told linearly, were instead depicted non-linearly for players who just sorta did their own thing and went with their gut. So you have certain events that were key to the story being told completely out of order and just landing flat or being forgotten about because the proper sequence of events weren't followed. I think that's what happened to a lot of players who didn't quite get some of the points of the plot. Because I had a friend who played it with me and they went totally out of order and did Augusta Tower backwards, and it made absolutely zero sense. Then they didn't meet Snow until much later, and had no idea why Serah was concerned or thinking of Snow and worrying about him in a place that he wasn't even shown to be in because they only visited the era Snow wasn't shown to live in. :monster:
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
So was the adventure in "Chrono Trigger," but see the fallout from that in "Radical Dreamers" and "Chrono Cross." :monster:



That's kind of the point being made, though. They couldn't know what the precise results would be other than erased events, people, etc.

Obviously the narrative didn't have any interest in exploring these ramifications in any deeper sense, so we're presumably meant to take it as unquestionably the right decision every time they set out to resolve a paradox -- but that makes the narrative decision to show that there are deeper considerations afoot all the more odd since they then still go unconsidered.
Huh? But Cross is better than Trigger.

It's proved by science.

Gotta agree with you on still wanting to spend on the "old" XIII world, which is why I was so opposite to XIII-2. It felt unnecessary change the rules of the story while there was so much to be developed. Good times when I thought we would be able to explore Valhalla with Lightning while the others looked for her in Pulse by airship lol. No, take here Noel Klaus and Serah and a giant moogle head traveling through time via a KH grid.

Either way, despite loving those games to death, they didn't do a great job in explaining a lot of concepts, especially in XIII-2, resulting in a confusing sequence of events. In that regard, LR fared better.
 
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Glaurung

Forgot the cutesy in my other pants. Sorry.
AKA
Mama Dragon
The only thing I could never stand of XIII-2 was that "if you alter the future, the past alters itself to accomodate to that". Unless I've been misunderstanding the entire premise, that makes no sense at all.
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
The only thing I could never stand of XIII-2 was that "if you alter the future, the past alters itself to accomodate to that". Unless I've been misunderstanding the entire premise, that makes no sense at all.
If time is a straight line, it would work like that no?

In Valhalla there's no future, all you see is history as an eternal present somewhat already "set", history that Yeul can see in the normal world, making her a seeress.

If someone drops a giant ball in the middle of that line, both past and future must accomodate to that change, to keep a logical order of events.

by affecting what was pre-ordained in XIII + chaos slipping through Etro's Gate, the Yeuls of the past began seeing other futures, causing their premature death.

Or something.
 
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Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
Adding to that, If I understood it right, as long as there are paradoxes, multiple possibilities can co-exist but only temporarily. At one point one outcome will prevail over another, becoming the new history.
 
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