SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[nars305]

Rebirth is not the game cucking Zack and making fun of him. It's the game where Zack's love for Aerith knows no limit. Marlene scene is not here to confess Aerith feelings to Cloud. It's here to show how Zack will ALWAYS prioritize Aerith.

"The woman I love may have forgotten me and is loving someone else ? Someone whom life is between my own hands ?" And what Zack is doing the very next scene ? He's going to Hojo to save Cloud. Because he's been told he'll be the one to save Aerith

All of this is just to doubling down on Zack being the PERFECT boyfriend. Because they know how the Cult Clerith talked shit about him. It's the dev telling "See ? That's why everyone loves Zack and why he'll be the perfect match for our flower girl"

No. You’re wrong. He’s a cuck.

Therefore, he will be now known as Zuck.

 

[Rin]

As for the current topic of discussion, wasn't COLW a contrast to COLB? So if Sephiroth talks about hating Cloud, doesn't it make sense for his contrast to talk about loving Cloud? And didn't they start expanding on Zack and Zerith in Crisis Core? Which was released after COLW and AC? So it makes sense if Zack wasn't mentioned much because he wasn't (yet) a concern?

Yeah, I feel like this is why COLW/B have been worked into FF7R because Nojima probably isn't going to rewrite it, but he's got the chance to recontextualize it within the game itself now. And so, now that things have changed pretty significantly between COLW/B being written and the current remake project, he's revisiting Aerith's feelings for Cloud and what they truly are.

 

[imach0c0]

I get how you feel given all that. I think what threw me off is we did not get a payoff for the Zack scene from Intergrade (unless they will address it in Part 3)

There are times in Rebirth where it feels Zack's parts were rushed, especially near the end.

Regarding Zack's role and his potential reunion with Aerith in Part 3, it seems likely. At first glance and on the surface, it seems the Zack/Aerith stuff got rejected. However, I think there is a lot of reading between the lines with how their relationship is portrayed, especially through visual imagery. Also, from a storytelling POV, it does not make sense for Zack/Aerith to resolve in part 2 because Aerith has unresolved feelings. I think the dream date was the opportunity for her to resolve that. Which sets up a cleaner slate for her and Zack going into Part 3.

As a fellow Zackbro, I only understand your doubts too well. I myself still vacillate between dooming and hope on a near daily basis. I almost tossed my controller when Marlene spouted her crap, lol. But more than anything, the sheer certainty of hardcore Cleriths always makes me think I am being gaslighted tbh. The way they read the game and the way I did are not compatible at all, so someone has to be wrong. I honestly question if it's me, sometimes. They are quite nasty about it too - "Zack got cucked, lmao" is horrible to hear even if it's almost certainly not true.

Ultimately, it irks me they put Zack on the cover, hyped him in the interviews and then gave him an hour screentime tops in a 100 hr game. That was some high level bs from Square and I'm not sure I can ever trust them fully again as a Zack fan. They don't actually seem to know what to do with him, or they did and reversed course. I still feel they cut gameplay sections otherwise why are his combat mechanics developed to this extent? It doesn't make sense unless content was cut. It's sad because he's really fun to play.

But dooming aside, I think they really are setting up Zack and Aerith. I don't think they would give him the setup he received to break him like that in the end. It's abundantly clear he's only here for Aerith and the contrast with how Cloud treats her and how Zack is willing to go to hell and back for her without the slightest hesitation is quite clear. You dont show hands touching across the lifestream without reason, it is massive if you think about it. And thats the thing - because of his very limited screentime, by definition Zack does something extraordinary everytime he shows up. He is quite single minded in his insanity (i think its fair to call him insane, in a good way). I think we can look forward to having the last laugh in 3 years.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Set the stupid on fire, if at all possible. It will keep you warm and is infinitely renewable, I hear.

Spread the stupid ashes in your orchards afterward. That's how you grow Dumb Apples, right?

That's why I have it a home.

Between this and your kitty's keyboard shenanigans, I'm naming the next stray cat I adopt Typo.

Ed, Edd, and Eddie but the only different is fully 3D Johnny from FF7 replaces their Johnny.

I'd watch it.

I mean in general. The man's weakness is "my own body is tearing me apart because I cannot move"

Yeah, but his poor ego. "You're quick, man. You're just not fast.[/] -- Sonic the Hedgehog

I can imagine.

And World of Pure Imagination is now stuck in my head. Someone get me an edible flower teacup.

It's just my way.

It is known, although it wasn't.

It wasn't a discworld project, just a 48 hour film about a guy who works at routing people to the afterlife they qualify for, and he gets himself as an assignment. I played his boss, Death.

Ah ok, I see where my confusion set in. I don't think I've actually seen it, but I do recall a brief discussion about it.

Have you seen any of the recent Rifftrax lives?

I have not.

Better than one might initially expect.

Nice when that happens.

Ba dum tish.

It has to be said.

That sounds infuriating. Repeating history even though you learned it.

It was. Oh sure, they'd add a couple new historical figures and more specific dates than the previous year but the events being taught did not often vary year to year. At least they weren't teaching "the benefits experienced by the slaves" or anything. I got my eye on you school, don't you dare.

I had a similar arrangement once, for a programming class.

Nice.

Oh yes, Fluffy's children will be everywhere.

We need to introduce a fluffy black Tom in Edge and get some lovely grandchildren too. We could use a missing pet turns up with kittens episode anyway.

It almost happened to the first lady who voiced Excel in the Excel saga dub. She took like a year off to let her voice recover.

I believe it. I use a voice based on Lanipator's Vegeta for my favorite DnD character, and even without having to do multiple takes that hurts after a four hour session.

She managed to minimize every window and I lost my place and train of thought.

Impressive. Recalls a time when Luna unplugged my PC and lost a whole chapter I'd just written. Good kitty taught me to save more often.

I mean if you want to take the easy way out, I won't blame you.

I'd say "less of a chore" over "easier" but yep.

Fair.

Nah, another moment where I got interrupted and forgot to complete a thought. I was saying "That does seem to be how the new gen pinkers are treating things."

Fair enough. And that sadly doesn't make the donuts.

With Kenichi.

Ahhh we have fun here.

I think technically I'm an infidel rather than a heretic, but yeah, you're doing it right.

Infidel does fit somewhat better in this context. Pink Hell at least had fully schismed into basically it's own separate fandom.

I obviously fundamentally disagree. Could you provide a source for the idea that "The player decides who Cloud loves" because I have not come across anything like that. If anything, what I've seen is them discussing about the affection system possibly detracting from the actual narrative and wanting each possible outcome to be true to Cloud's character.
Furthermore the affection values themselves are consistently referred to as the companion's feelings towards Cloud, not his feelings towards them.

Whoa, deja fuckin' vu right? Is it 2010 again?

That's not how "canon" works.

Beat me to it again.

But regardless of whether or not you get the high or low version, Cloud and Tifa confirm their mutual feelings of romance that night. After that they start living together, they start a family together. Cloud is so happy living with Tifa that he begins feeling guilty about it. Nojima and Nomura have both said Cloud goes back where he belongs at the end of AC/C. The ending isn't open ended. They are raising a child together, a child that considers them his parents (and whose biological parents were made very deliberate visual mirrors of Cloud and Tifa).

That ending is about as closed as can be.

Also this is sort of like saying "You decide the canon ending of FF10-2" because getting one ending as opposed to another is down to player input during the game.

I luled harder at this than I should have.

@SilverSisu: Welcome an' shit to the toxic thread of toxicity How we stacking up to YouTube comments so far? Is Tim Curry singing Toxic Love yet?

 

[Ryeleigh]

Yeah, I feel like this is why COLW/B have been worked into FF7R because Nojima probably isn't going to rewrite it, but he's got the chance to recontextualize it within the game itself now. And so, now that things have changed pretty significantly between COLW/B being written and the current remake project, he's revisiting Aerith's feelings for Cloud and what they truly are.

Yeah. I mean, people should keep in mind the release chronology for these things and how a lot of them have years between them.

 

[SilverSisu]

How we stacking up to YouTube comments so far?

Youtube comment section is like a zoo where wild animals are throwing shit at each other.

This place is much more civilized.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Btw Silver, I hope you read that as the gentle ribbing I intended it as rather than as an attack. I sometimes forget how hard it can be to get exact tone across without voice.

 

[SilverSisu]

Btw Silver, I hope you read that as the gentle ribbing I intended it as rather than as an attack. I sometimes forget how hard it can be to get exact tone across without voice.

Don't worry. I have developed tough skin during the past few months. That ribbing was nowhere near the worst that i have faced so it's all good bro.

 

[imach0c0]

Regarding the dream date, when Aerith and Cloud talk about making more memories, in JP, Cloud says:
"Yes, because we are friends" (HA)
"Yes, of course" (LA)

From Cloud's POV, do you think this is open to interpretation regarding the type of feelings he has for Aerith OR does Cloud just see her as a friend in both versions?

 

[abzy1200]

“First off, there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don’t really intend to go into my views on love or marriage or family. After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith…”

- Nojima, Advent Children interview

The problem with using this quote as proof of either neutrality or Clerith, is that you have to ignore arguably the most relevant piece of information in it, which is Nojima basically telling us he wrote Case of Tifa through his views of love, marriage, and family.

Even if we ignore that, if you want to take the bit at the end about Aerith meaning that Cloud could have had a successful relationship with Aerith, you have to assume that the quote is talking about romantic relationships in the first place, since if it isn't, then why is it that you instantly assume that "things" regarding Cloud and Tifa isn't about a romantic relationship, but that "things" in regards to Aerith immediately does?

and fyi, said "things" that aren't going well is something that is resolved during Advent Children, so no, Cloud and Tifa are not in a dysfunctional, uncompatible relationship, Cloud was depressed, that's it.

It wasn't a fault of Cloud or Tifa themselves or their "compatibility", but mental anguish that made it so Cloud couldn't move on with his life.

EDIT: This is sort of a side note, but you also have to ignore that Barret and Cid talk about Cloud and Tifa in the context of a relationship. I know that the implication on Cid's part about "wearing the pants" is only a localization, the more accurate translation doesn't carry nearly the same implication, but it can't be ignored that talking about Cloud and Tifa obviously got Barret thinking about relationships since the very next thing he says after Cid's implication is;

"How's Shera?"

to which Cid replies;

"Eh, she's the same."

Another Edit, sorry: Yes, Barret is a third party and doesn't have the final say on Cloud and Tifa's relationship status, but if anyone in Final Fantasy 7 would know, it would be Barret, he has unarguably spent the most time with them out of anyone in AVALANCE. If anyone knows, it's the guy who traveled with them post Final Fantasy 7 and built what is described as Cloud and Tifa's "home" at the exclusion of himself.

 

[Rin]

Regarding the dream date, when Aerith and Cloud talk about making more memories, in JP, Cloud says:
"Yes, because we are friends" (HA)
"Yes, of course" (LA)

From Cloud's POV, do you think this is open to interpretation regarding the type of feelings he has for Aerith OR does Cloud just see her as a friend in both versions?

Personally, no, I don't see it as being open to interpretation since Aerith's response doesn't change either way.

 

[Yoru]

The problem with using this quote as proof of either neutrality or Clerith, is that you have to ignore arguably the most relevant piece of information in it, which is Nojima basically telling us he wrote Case of Tifa through his views of love, marriage, and family.

Even if we ignore that, if you want to take the bit at the end about Aerith meaning that Cloud could have had a successful relationship with Aerith, you have to assume that the quote is talking about romantic relationships in the first place, since if it isn't, then why is it that you instantly assume that "things" regarding Cloud and Tifa isn't about a romantic relationship, but that "things" in regards to Aerith immediately does?

and fyi, said "things" that aren't going well is something that is resolved during Advent Children, so no, Cloud and Tifa are not in a dysfunctional, uncompatible relationship, Cloud was depressed, that's it.

It wasn't a fault of Cloud or Tifa themselves or their "compatibility", but mental anguish that made it so Cloud couldn't move on with his life.

EDIT: This is sort of a side note, but you also have to ignore that Barret and Cid talk about Cloud and Tifa in the context of a relationship. I know that the implication on Cid's part about "wearing the pants" is only a localization, the more accurate translation doesn't carry nearly the same implication, but it can't be ignored that talking about Cloud and Tifa obviously got Barret thinking about relationships since the very next thing he says after Cid's implication is;

"How's Shera?"

to which Cid replies;

"Eh, she's the same."

And just a reminder that Cloud left the house for maybe 2 weeks max in AC.

We're not talking about years like some of the Cult is spreading it online.

Married life is not only flowers and rainbows.

Tifa keeps calling him on the phone for his work, and he's listening to it. Not really the image of people who can't stand each other anymore. -

 

[abzy1200]

And just a reminder that Cloud left the house for maybe 2 weeks max in AC.

We're not talking about years like some of the Cult is spreading it online.

Married life is not only flowers and rainbows.

Couldn't agree more, you would never be able to find a couple who never went through even one rough patch.

Him leaving for the Church is even less proof of Clerith when it's beaten into your skull that him moping about there is a bad thing that is away from what makes him happy; his family.

 

[Rin]

Couldn't agree more, you would never be able to find a couple who never went through even one rough patch.

Him leaving for the Church is even less proof of Clerith when it's beaten into your skull that him moping about there is a bad thing that is away from what makes him happy; his family.

Plus people ignore that the church symbolizes both Zack and Aerith, not just Aerith herself. There's a reason Zack is always depicted there after all.

 

[abzy1200]

Plus people ignore that the church symbolizes both Zack and Aerith, not just Aerith herself. There's a reason Zack is always depicted there after all.

It's even at the end of film lmao.

Tifa keeps calling him on the phone for his work, and he's listening to it. Not really the image of people who can't stand each other anymore. -

Especially when you* take into consideration that when Marlene says that she wants to see Cloud, "Tifa couldn't help but smile, since it reflected what she felt in her own heart"

EDIT: left out the "you."

 

[Rin]

It's even at the end of film lmao.

Exactly and Cloud moves Zack's sword there because of it lol

 

[SilverSisu]

Why a male character who is charming and lady's man, but also very devoted to one woman is being hated as womanizer lol.

I know you weren't talking only about Zack but this is really interesting topic.

It's funny that many think that Zack was just somekind of a player and ladiesman when he wasn't. Sure he had a temporary crush on Cissnei but that was before he met Aerith. After Zack had met Aerith there was room for only one woman in his life.

I bet this misconception stems from non canon maiden who travels the planet novel that not only contradicts the story but also makes Aerith and Zack behave out of character.

Zack was never that slick player the maiden depicted him as and Aerith seemed cold and mean towards Zack.

 

[imach0c0]

Personally, no, I don't see it as being open to interpretation since Aerith's response doesn't change either way.

What do you make of Cloud's actions in the date? When Aerith holds his hand, he goes along with it. And when he spots the photographer, he points and smiles.

On a side note, I wonder if this was the real cloud peaking through. There are times when his facial expressions looked childlike and innocent

 

[Yoru]

It's even at the end of film lmao.


Especially when you* take into consideration that when Marlene says that she wants to see Cloud, "Tifa couldn't help but smile, since it reflected what she felt in her own heart"

EDIT: left out the "you."

The movie has never been that deep lmao.

Their whole adventure comes back into Cloud's teeth once he's settled down after two years of rebuilding Midgar and his life. Cloud is going through a rough patch and isolating himself from others (like a certain Cloud as a child... probably a coincidence).

His family misses him (this is pretty much the only dialogues Tifa, Marlene and Denzel have).

And just when said family is in real danger, he gets back on his motorcycle to bust some ass.

Aerith and Zack come to the rescue. The message being that they're always with them. The people you love will always be in your heart.

Everyone's healed and life goes on. Cloud can finally enjoy life to the full without any qualms.

 

[Hellenic]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1782986228306202658

I came across these predictions. What do you think?

Personally, I see some interesting points, but also some that I hate and find really poor.

I really hope the dev team is convinced in their own vision and don't look too much on the internet lol.

That sounds way too fanficcy for my taste.

 

[abzy1200]

Exactly and Cloud moves Zack's sword there because of it lol

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's also nothing official that really concretely tells us that Cloud spent any more time at the Church than he did at Zack's grave.

I know you weren't talking only about Zack but this is really interesting topic.

It's funny that many think that Zack was just somekind of a player and ladiesman when he wasn't. Sure he had a temporary crush on Cissnei but that was before he met Aerith. After Zack had met Aerith there was room for only one woman in his life.

I bet this misconception stems from non canon maiden who travels the planet novel that not only contradicts the story but also makes Aerith and Zack behave out of character.

Zack was never confident player the maiden depicted him and Aerith seemed cold and mean towards Zack.

I don't know how anyone can claim Zack is just some playboy, he literally died just trying to see her face again.

He's right next to Tifa on the podium for "most loyal lover."

 

[Yoru]

That sounds way too fanficcy for my taste.

Yes. I hate the whole "it was all a dream" and "they're all kissing and leaving in the light with some cheesy 90s rock music"

 

[Rin]

What do you make of Cloud's actions in the date? When Aerith holds his hand, he goes along with it. And when he spots the photographer, he points and smiles.

On a side note, I wonder if this was the real cloud peaking through. There are times when his facial expressions looked childlike and innocent

I think he was having fun! People kept talking about the end of the world, Aerith was sad, and he's not completely emotionally unintelligent so he wanted to cheer her up. We also just spent an entire game taking pictures of the landscape, people, the sky, etc. via Cloud and building up his interest in photography. He got excited to see a photographer and thought it could be fun for them.

Also, Cloud always lets Aerith drag him along, so it's not like that was the first time she's grabbed his hand. It wasn't anything new or out of the ordinary for their relationship.

Overall, he was definitely having fun with her and I do think it was the real Cloud in that moment tbh, which is perhaps why when he calls her a friend or doesn't think much of spending time with her again, she comes to realize that even the real Cloud doesn't see her romantically.

 

[Yoru]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's also nothing official that really concretely tells us that Cloud spent any more time at the Church than he did at Zack's grave.

That's literally the place he goes to sleep lmao.

Bro wakes up. Go to work all day (reminder he's a uber), stops at Zack's grave to mourn. Come back to the church to sleep. Repeat

 

[SilverSisu]

I don't know how anyone can claim Zack is just some playboy, he literally died just trying to see her face again.

He's right next to Tifa on the podium for "most loyal lover."

Agreed 100%

And even when he heard that Aerith has feelings for Cloud he is still doing everything he can so that he can save both Aerith and Cloud. Zack is not only a loyal boyfriend but also an exceptional friend.

I blame maiden who travels the planet novel. There are many Clerith shippers who love to bring that up.