LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Eerie]

We have a hard time believing that Cloud loves both Tifa and Aerith the same way because:
- he knew Aerith for two, three weeks at best (while he's been in love with Tifa like forever)
- he wasn't even himself during that time
- he never truly showed a sign of romantic love towards her
- he just wants to be forgiven by her for failing her - he doesn't really show that OMG he can't lieve without her, or that he's given his heart to her

Yes, if she hadn't died, MAYBE things could have been different. Thing is, she died, and their bond never got past that. The player CAN make him bend towards Aerith for a bit, but that's as far as it goes, because the player as that time is the one who drives Cloud's heart. Cloud, after becoming himself again, is yet again about Tifa. He cares great deal about Aerith, yes he does, but love? Where? We've been waiting for so long for someone to show up and point out at signs of true love after he becomes himself again (because up until then, he's manipulated by Jenova so he would become closer to Aerith in order to make him kill her, hence, I think, the few occasions given to the player to "flirt" -kinda- with her). Clerith is just one big red herring.

Edit: darn, this was for ite

Oh, and also, you'd be surprised at how many depressing and angsty CloTi fics I read... a long time ago.

 

[Ite]

I respectfully disagree on that one. I think that Cloud's feelings for Aeris were real - perhaps informed by the Zack-fusion thing, but their interactions - at least in the fanfic I've read (and I honestly love Cleris fluff) are charming and unique to them.

I also think it's awesome that a video game could challenge us to question exactly what makes love authentic, what validates it, in what way is it illusionary? Deep shit.

The problem with Cleris is that the canon sets Aeris up to die, and so she's two-giggles-and-a-wink away from a Mary Sue and her relationship with Cloud is all butterflies and roses so that he can feel maximum pain when she dies (although I would argue that she feels maximum pain, being, you know, stabbed to death). That opens the door for lots of fluffy nice stuff but the death is 1) the only piece of dramatic tension in their whole ship and 2) overdramatic.

 

[Eerie]

I think that Cloud's feelings for Aeris were real - perhaps informed by the Zack-fusion thing, but their interactions - at least in the fanfic I've read[...]

I'm sorry, what? Are you trolling or something? If I had know, dammit! I wouldn't have wasted my time :p

 

[Shadowfox]

The problem with Cleris is that the canon sets Aeris up to die, and so she's two-giggles-and-a-wink away from a Mary Sue and her relationship with Cloud is all butterflies and roses so that he can feel maximum pain when she dies (although I would argue that she feels maximum pain, being, you know, stabbed to death). That opens the door for lots of fluffy nice stuff but the death is 1) the only piece of dramatic tension in their whole ship and 2) overdramatic.

I think the biggest problems with a Clerith romantic relationship in the game are that she had been chasing after the ghost of her old boyfriend and he was being completely unlike himself as he was subconsciously imitating said old boyfriend, and so they both never really knew each other. And then she died.

However, I actually think this can be a much better source of dramatic character-related tension than just her death for fanfics. It's pretty rare to find a fanfic that takes their confused relationship in the game and develop it to the point where a romantic relationship between them arises naturally and believably. But most Clerith fanfics I've read simply assume that Cloud and Aerith are in love and go from there.

 

[Tennyo]

I respectfully disagree on that one. I think that Cloud's feelings for Aeris were real - perhaps informed by the Zack-fusion thing, but their interactions - at least in the fanfic I've read (and I honestly love Cleris fluff) are charming and unique to them.

You do realize you just used fanfiction as proof, right?

I also think it's awesome that a video game could challenge us to question exactly what makes love authentic, what validates it, in what way is it illusionary? Deep shit.

I'm not quite sure I see how it does this. Can you explain a bit further, please?

The problem with Cleris is that the canon sets Aeris up to die, and so she's two-giggles-and-a-wink away from a Mary Sue and her relationship with Cloud is all butterflies and roses so that he can feel maximum pain when she dies (although I would argue that she feels maximum pain, being, you know, stabbed to death). That opens the door for lots of fluffy nice stuff but the death is 1) the only piece of dramatic tension in their whole ship and 2) overdramatic.

You forgot about Cloud punching her in the temple. That's pretty tense.

 

[Ite]

Forgive me, wasn't trolling, in my long shpiel earlier I said that Cleris doesn't have a lot of canonical meat, and that I prefer them as the fandom presents them rather than how the game does.

I'm not quite sure I see how it does this. Can you explain a bit further, please?

Well, there are two basic ideas:

1) Cloud was only interested in Aeris because of the Zack-fusion
2) Aeris was only interested in Cloud because of his similarities to Zack

I find #2 a little dumb, in that (as it's been said) love is unique for different people, and as far as I can tell, Cloud was nothing like Zack at any point in the game. Zack was never a standoffish jerk.

#1 is an interesting debate. Those who say that Cloud only loved Aeris because of the Zack-fusion are conceding that Cloud did love Aeris. They are saying that this love is illusionary and/or doesn't count because of the context around it. So basically, even though love is there, circumstances prevent it from being 'real' love. What does that say about the nature of love? What is love, then?

That a game could lead us to this debate is a great thing.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Forgive me, wasn't trolling, in my long shpiel earlier I said that Cleris doesn't have a lot of canonical meat, and that I prefer them as the fandom presents them rather than how the game does.

Fine and dandy, but just a warning...they will devour you here with that kind of fluffy filling. Fanon vs Canon is opinion. We tend to gnaw on raw facts here.

*note to self: go eat dinner.

Well, there are two basic ideas:

1) Cloud was only interested in Aeris because of the Zack-fusion
2) Aeris was only interested in Cloud because of his similarities to Zack

I find #2 a little dumb, in that (as it's been said) love is unique for different people, and as far as I can tell, Cloud was nothing like Zack at any point in the game. Zack was never a standoffish jerk.

#1 is an interesting debate. Those who say that Cloud only loved Aeris because of the Zack-fusion are conceding that Cloud did love Aeris. They are saying that this love is illusionary and/or doesn't count because of the context around it. So basically, even though love is there, circumstances prevent it from being 'real' love. What does that say about the nature of love? What is love, then?

That a game could lead us to this debate is a great thing.

Theory 1) Is crap in my opinion, because I say that Cloud is NEVER romantically interested in Aerith. With his Zack-suit on or otherwise. He is also OBLIVIOUS to her interest in him. Also, Cloud isn't so much 'Zack' as he is a reminder of Zack. the ONLY time Cloud superimposes himself into Zack's place is when...oh, yes, Nibleheim. Where he gets to be the hero for...who? Oh, yes, Tifa. ONLY time, boys and girls. This removal of Zack is psychologically profound if you really think about it, but since it lacks nudez and pron, let's avoid that.

Theory 2) is actually closer to the narrative. Initially Aerith is only interested in Cloud because of who he represents to her. She calls him a 'messed up kid' and says she knows that he's screw-loose loopy, but she still wants to know the 'real' him. You can analyze that as guilt, if you are so inclined, or as flower girl wanting hot younger man. Calling it love is premature. Especially given the lack of mutuality. No, I am not saying love can't be one-sided, but I am saying if you want Cleris to qualify as a love-story or even budding relationship, it fails. Miserably.

I have fanfic to back this up, if needed.

 

[Son Goku]

Forgive me, wasn't trolling, in my long shpiel earlier I said that Cleris doesn't have a lot of canonical meat, and that I prefer them as the fandom presents them rather than how the game does.



Well, there are two basic ideas:

1) Cloud was only interested in Aeris because of the Zack-fusion
2) Aeris was only interested in Cloud because of his similarities to Zack

I find #2 a little dumb, in that (as it's been said) love is unique for different people, and as far as I can tell, Cloud was nothing like Zack at any point in the game. Zack was never a standoffish jerk.

#1 is an interesting debate. Those who say that Cloud only loved Aeris because of the Zack-fusion are conceding that Cloud did love Aeris. They are saying that this love is illusionary and/or doesn't count because of the context around it. So basically, even though love is there, circumstances prevent it from being 'real' love. What does that say about the nature of love? What is love, then?

That a game could lead us to this debate is a great thing.

Clerith is fanon and lives on in fanfiction! Enjoy it and don`t try things with almost zero argumentative weight. If he were in love with Aerith then he would not "move on" right after regaining his true self.

If the Cloud who regained himself where in love with Aerith, then he wouldn`t move on so fast after her death. If he were in Love with Aerith (which would be the actual love at that point) and given that they most probably could die the next day (The night before the final battle), then it would make even less sense to move on with his past love (Tifa). Because the possibility of death the next day would mean, that he could possibly be reunited with Aerith again.

 

[Son Goku]

...
# Cloud in a white background.

Nomura: Here, Cloud's eyes stayed open until the final version of the movie was made. I want you to imagine this scene with his eyes open.

?: I can, quite a bit (Laughs)

Nomura: You know how scary that looks? (Laughs)

Nomura: So I got them to close his eyes.

Cloud’s eyes were left open for the whole scene where Aerith touches Cloud’s forehead and he says, “Mother?” during the developing stages of the movie.

Doesn`t this mean Cloud would still say “Mother?”, even if he saw that it`s Aerith who he is refering to?
Nomura said he got his eyes closed because it looked scary.
Interesting I think..

 

[Ite]

I figure that this wasn't a 'which one is canon' debate so much as a 'which one do you prefer.' If either could be proved beyond measurable doubt, we wouldn't have 503 pages.

 

[null]

Have you actually gone back and read this thread? There's no debate, it's 503 pages of horsing around.

*neighs*

 

[Tennyo]

Ite, if there is anything this thread is not it's a "Who do you prefer" thread. No one here really cares who you like best. If you like the fluffy Clerith of fanfiction like you say then that is your prerogative. But here in this thread we do focus on facts.

 

[Son Goku]

I figure that this wasn't a 'which one is canon' debate so much as a 'which one do you prefer.' If either could be proved beyond measurable doubt, we wouldn't have 503 pages.

You thought this thread is 503 pages full of serious discussion?
There was a time when there wasn`t absolute definitive proofs like the U20 quote (you know that one, don`t you?). In those times at least 100 years ago, there were serious discussions about all this. But that was then, now it`s more like: look page 499-501

 

[crack]

Have you actually gone back and read this thread? There's no debate, it's 503 pages of horsing around.

*neighs*

Horsing around the LTD is much more fun than debating who a fictional character belongs with.

 

[null]

You could say

Spoiler

it's beating a dead horse.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

:horatio:

 

[crack]

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

 

[null]

On a tangent, I wouldn't look for horsing around on youtube

 

[Son Goku]

On a tangent, I wouldn't look for horsing around on youtube

You mean: Link (Do not click on this Link!)

 

[crack]

why would you do that.

 

[Son Goku]

I can`t follow. I said "Do not click on this Link!" haven`t I?



ps: Try again.. will make it up.

 

[null]

Anyway, is there a real, unresolved love triangle we could argue about? My wife likes to watch the Vampire Diaries. I noticed that Sensitive Vampire Guy and his renegade brother both like the lead chick lady.

 

[crack]

I can`t follow. I said "Do not click on this Link!" haven`t I?

Anyway, is there a real, unresolved love triangle we could argue about?

I always knew Kate and Jack were always canon /lost

 

[Winter]

this thread isn't facts, it's actually 500 pages of circlejerking.

also lol HORATIO CAINE

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Anyway, is there a real, unresolved love triangle we could argue about? My wife likes to watch the Vampire Diaries. I noticed that Sensitive Vampire Guy and his renegade brother both like the lead chick lady.

Stefan.

She chooses Stefan and becomes human again. (Not sure where they are in the series, as I refuse to watch them turn one of my favorite series as a teenager into another fucking Twilight) Tell your wife to read the books, as they are actually good.