LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Ite]

You can read my post over and over to hear me arguing with myself!

 

[Dashell]

And also, Nomura isn't the only one involved in this entire situation. Nojima has no problem saying what the deal is with these things so just because Nomura is all "OMG AMBIGUOUS" doesn't mean that was everyone's plan.

You can't possible be arguing canon when there's so much goddamn canon evidence in one camp's favour, whereas all the other camp has is one statement from 2002 that has been contradicted numerous times by the same guy.

They have more than that FFS...

 

[Vendel]

just like the fact that who Cloud loves is optional.

Since when?

From 1997-2002, Nomura expressed both in the subtext of Final Fantasy VII and in interviews that the LTD was intentionally ambiguous

No he didn't.

This sparked lively debate that was mostly built on subjective analysis with what the game provided.

No. This sparked the idiocy that is die hard shippers.

From 2005-Present, Nomura has changed his mind and solidified the answers.

!. Who says he changed his mind and 2. Some would have you believe the answer is ambiguous despite EVERYTHING telling them they are wrong.

This thread still exists after five years because people don't take author-made addenda seriously when it contradicts itself.

When has it ever in this case?

If you are taking what Nomura says in the Ultimania as the definitive answer,

As you should.

you have to forfeit his interview in 2002,

An interview no one can seem to verify. And from a man who is known to lie in interviews before a product is released?

I understand that in the creation of the sequels, Nomura had to sacrifice the ambiguity of things like the game's ending, the LTD, and secret characters. Great. Debate over. CloTi is canon, Aeris was a mother figure (?)

The only thing that possibly was meant to be ambiguous was the ending. The rest is fan-wank.

Why, then is the debate still here?

For moments like this.

You can't possible be arguing canon when there's so much goddamn canon evidence in one camp's favour,

You would be surprised.

whereas all the other camp has is one statement from 2002 that has been contradicted numerous times by the same guy.

See above.

You can't be here after 3 threads and probably 1500 pages if the only argument against your heaps of evidence is "no u."

Yes we can and we will be here another 1500 if we damn well please.

 

[Dashell]

Since when?

Did you read the quote I posted?... no?... okay just checking.

and yes we are forfeiting interviews because obviously things change... and you can't just use some age old interview to prove your point when everything that's come along recently has contradicted it.

 

[Ite]

Maybe you missed that this was my first foray into the LTD after 10 years in the fandom. (*cool story bro*)

I've skimmed through every fiftieth page or so of this thread, and I think I get what this is all about now.

 

[Vendel]

Did you read the quote I posted?... no?... okay just checking.

Read the rest of my post before making a smart ass comment about it Q.

 

[Dashell]

I did, that didn't answer anything. The fact is the original game left it up to the player to decide who Cloud loved. It could have been Yuffie for all we care.

An interview no one can seem to verify. And from a man who is known to lie in interviews before a product is released?

What product? Was this interview even about Advent Children?

 

[Vendel]

An unsourced quote that you have gotten 5th hand is not some almighty fucking proof that shit was left intentionally ambiguous or was left up to the players.

 

[Dashell]

Now here's a question

would you change your mind at all if the quote is verified?

 

[Eerie]

@Vendel: maybe we should hide the two previous versions of that thread, 'cause he'd be scared or something? XD

And also Que, I don't care about that quote. It's from lulzman Nomura. Get quote like this from Nojima and then I'll look at it.

 

[Dashell]

So what... now nothing Nomura says is reliable? There's a difference between, "I left this ambiguous" and telling an out right lie to not spoil right?

I mean in this interview he might have just been talking about FFVII itself. If he's talking just about FFVII then I think we should take it at face value. As many times as I've quoted Nomura when debating, I really don't think we should just throw quotes out the window because he says what we don't like. That's just... no good.

Do we really need Cleriths coming at us with, "Well Nomura said Cloud was happy but Nomura lies all the time, you said so."

 

[Eerie]

He's barely reliable, known to lie in interviews, etc. So I wouldn't put his word as god-like, except when it comes to how they created and thought about stuff rather than how characters are/interacts which belongs more, IMHO, to Nojima's field since he is the writer.

 

[Dashell]

So I wouldn't put his word as god-like, except when it comes to how they created and thought about stuff rather...

...

what do you think the quote was about?
... bah going to bed... it's fucking 6 AM XD

 

[Eerie]

It's about the relationships between characters, so more like characterization, something not really about how they thought and build the game? XD I.E. something that falls into Nojima's field _o/

 

[RawrieStrife]

Correct me if I'm wrong...

We're arguing who's more reliable, Nomura and Nojima??

Well, I don't trust any of them. They may be easily lying to convince people to buy the game and the movie. I take their word with a grain of salt.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Obviously, people need to be handheld and coddled where this is concerned, because critics can't disagree! That wouldn't make it literature!

Look, if Nomura had been doing his job as a storyteller properly, he wouldn't have needed a fucking explanation book that's longer than the game script. Either the answer is ambiguous, as he alluded to in 2002 (before he went batshit, I presume) and also in 1997 when the game came out... or there is a definitive answer. If you guys need a definitive answer, you now have one.

'It's ambiguous' isn't an answer. It's 'I ain't telling.'

I for one hold about as much stock in author-produced addenda as I do fanfiction. Shaw wrote an essay about Pygmalion in which he writes how awful Henry and Eliza are together but critics never bring that up. Either the work speaks for itself, or everything speaks to it, and that includes critical analysis, subjective opinion, and fanfiction.

Ah yes, the absurdist arguments of new criticism.
Listen, there are facts about a fictional world which simply do not make for good storytelling to include, but which are true about that world nontheless. Like the Balrog being completely and utterly noiseless, for example.

And fanfics NEVER count. It's kind of part and parcel of fan fiction.

Then this is just another old-canon/new-canon debate. From 1997-2002, Nomura expressed both in the subtext of Final Fantasy VII and in interviews that the LTD was intentionally ambiguous, and critics could make of it what they wanted. This sparked lively debate that was mostly built on subjective analysis with what the game provided. From 2005-Present, Nomura has changed his mind and solidified the answers.

Nomura being intentionally vague doesn't mean there's no answer. He's gone on record, for example, as saying that even though there are definite answers for things, he wants to leave room for everyone's thoughts, for discussion.

This thread still exists after five years because people don't take author-made addenda seriously when it contradicts itself. If you are taking what Nomura says in the Ultimania as the definitive answer, you have to forfeit his interview in 2002, and also whatever he was thinking in 1997 when he made the game, as whatever he is thinking presently is canon,

You want game only argumentation, fine then. I've walked that road before.

I understand that in the creation of the sequels, Nomura had to sacrifice the ambiguity of things like the game's ending, the LTD, and secret characters. Great. Debate over. CloTi is canon, Aeris was a mother figure (?)

Is a mother figure. Post Mortem.

Critical analysis is replaced by Word of God. Why, then is the debate still here? You can't possible be arguing canon when there's so much goddamn canon evidence in one camp's favour, whereas all the other camp has is one statement from 2002 that has been contradicted numerous times by the same guy. You can't be here after 3 threads and probably 1500 pages if the only argument against your heaps of evidence is "no u."

It's not 'No U', but rather 'No U' in the most verbose form and repeat ad nauseam.

I did, that didn't answer anything. The fact is the original game left it up to the player to decide who Cloud loved. It could have been Yuffie for all we care.

It did not. The game is subtle in its answer, not player chosen.

And AGAIN, you're mixing 'can choose who fancies Cloud most' up for 'Who Cloud fancies most'

What product? Was this interview even about Advent Children?

So what... now nothing Nomura says is reliable? There's a difference between, "I left this ambiguous" and telling an out right lie to not spoil right?

I mean in this interview he might have just been talking about FFVII itself. If he's talking just about FFVII then I think we should take it at face value. As many times as I've quoted Nomura when debating, I really don't think we should just throw quotes out the window because he says what we don't like. That's just... no good.

Ambiguity of the answer doesn't mean the answer isn't there. It means the answer isn't obvious.

Do we really need Cleriths coming at us with, "Well Nomura said Cloud was happy but Nomura lies all the time, you said so."

Nomura only lies when the truth would spoil an upcoming story and can't weasel word his way out of a direct answer, from what I've seen.
Also, Nom and Noj have said he was happy.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

For fuck's sake, with that quote. They raped a quote about Kingdom hearts and applied it to the LTD. Playstation magazine, for reference. October 2002. And if you LOOK in the goddamn magazine we get THIS:


Question: Okay then, so the person who Cloud is searching for is Aeris, right?
Nomura: Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer. You might say it was made so that you can take it that way. Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought.

FUCKING HELL.

WE KNOW who he was searching for...right? And it ain't Aerith.

Cite sources, bitches, or shut the fuck up.

 

[Ite]

Well what about in Final Fantasy Tactics?

 

[Celes Chere]

What about it?

 

[Dashell]

what about it?

 

[Dashell]

OMFG ARE YOU SERIOUS CELES?

Holy shit, JINX XD

 

[Celes Chere]

WTF BITCH, NO. I SAID IT FIRST, YOU COPIED ME.

 

[Dashell]

I hit submit and yours appeared, it was trippy

 

[Ite]

Cloud appears in Final Fantasy Tactics, runs off and his whole deal is that he's got that thing with the flower girl. After his encounter with the flower girl, he tells the party:

"I lost... a very important thing. Ever since then I've been lost. What should I do? What about this pain?"

It doesn't take a scholar to find the meaning behind that. That's pretty blatant Cleris angst right thar. If we're counting KH as a contributing factor, we should count FFT as well.

Of course, then Ramza says "There's someone in your world waiting for you. We might be able to send you back" etc. Ramza's authority on a complete stranger's life isn't exactly great, but as a vessel for the ideas of the authors he makes the case for CloTi. And the ambiguity continues. I'm positive that the original intention was to make it ambiguous, as the game never had a definitive answer, and all cameos (KH, FFT, Ehrgeiz) did not decide one way or the other. That is the old-canon.

But since new-canon is the only canon, we have our answer. Cloti wins.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well what about in Final Fantasy Tactics?

I'm not sure why you're mentioning FF Tactics, but you do realize that the Aerith in FF Tactics is certainly not the same one from FFVII. Nor does Cloud wanting to keep her from being raped by pimps indicate any sort of romantic affinity at all.

The "important thing" Cloud lost was his identity and past. Cloud in FF Tactics is pulled from FFVII right after he had his ego smashed by the half-truth Sephiroth told him in the Northern Crater.

It's not romantic angst, it's Cloud bemoaning the fact he doesn't know who he really is, and that he's lost in terms of who he is.