Lucrecia's characterization and depiction

[jazzflower92]

When they remake this game, I hope they go with the original game's portrayal of Lucrecia instead of her Dirge of Cerberus one. I really thought her being trapped in crystal while being dressed in a pimped out dress was too overdramatic for my taste. And I hope they cut out the Grimoire subplot, because I feel it just made her too unlikable due to the fact that even before meeting Vincent she indirectly ruined his life.

I just want her in the remake to be what she was said to be in the Ultimanias, where she chose Hojo due to feeling sympathy for him and that she became deformed to the experiments.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

How did she ruin his life? I mean, in the Grimoire subplot?

 

[jazzflower92]

How did she ruin his life? I mean, in the Grimoire subplot?

Getting his dad killed is sort of a big deal.

I also meant this thread to be in the remake section, and I accidentally sent it here.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Most people's lives are not ruined when their fathers die. I mean, it is natural for your father to die before you. Vincent didn't seem all that cut up about it. I think Lucretia minded more than he did.

 

[Splintered]

I actually do think Lucrecia's extended characterization hurt her. I think it's the combination of DoC's bad writing and the whole "less is more" thing. And honestly, her whole character clinging to Vincent's forgiveness felt so contrary to the OG in my opinion, part of the tragedy in my eyes is that Vincent was so singularly focused on this one woman and helping her and was in love with her...

But it was never mutual. She might have liked him or even cared for him, but she was always focused on her research and in OG, the existence of her son. I don't think likeability or sympathy shouldn't come into it, she was simply a woman who prioritized science over everything else, and everyone suffered because of it.

Lucrecia was someone who made the wrong choice, but at the same time was also a victim- even if it was of her own doing. That was kind of interesting. Then they made her completely apologetic and even more melodramatic, to a story that was already melodramatic.

 

[ForceStealer]

I was fine with her being apologetic. Not in a "I should have been with you" sort of way, which is not how I took it, simply in a "I've ruined quite literally everything" sort of way. Otherwise though, I definitely agree. I didn't mind the Grimoire plot, apart from increasingly shrinking FF7's world, but it fit with increasing the significance with Chaos, which is fine. And she didn't really kill Grimoire, the stagnant Lifestream just broke out of the thing. Certainly something for her to feel bad about, but she didn't murder him.

There were two moments I appreciated Dirge showing of her. 1) Her response when Vincent is protesting what she and Hojo are doing. While in other scenes they had a tendency to make her a bit flaky, she was resolute here and it absolutely fit with what we know. As Splintered said, she cared about science first. I like that she finally gets annoyed with Vincent and tells him to come out with it. And all he can muster is "Are you sure?" Which is a reasonable question, and she answers, "If this only concerns me, then yes, I am sure." I really like that scene, it's one that truly benefited her character. Whether by "if it only concerns me" she's referring to Hojo's say or that she believes this experiment is for the greater good, I think it legitimately adds depth without cheapening anything else about her.

2) Her breakdown regarding Sephiroth. For awhile her breakdown is about Vincent, which is mostly just annoying. But when it comes to Sephiroth, "Let me see him! Just once!" THAT'S the point where you can actually feel for her, and with the words flashing all over the screen and her sitting on the floor saying "Jenova's cells..." I think it's clear that this is where she attempted to kill herself and failed due to Jenova. This was another pretty powerful scene that meaningfully added to the narrative.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Much as I love Dirge (and I love it more than it deserves to be), I'm not sure I can think of any scenes that I thought benefitted Lucrecia's character. The "If this only concerns me, then yes, I am sure" scene just made me hate her more because I have always interpreted Vincent's lines on the Sister Ray to indicate that he thought Sephiroth may have been his kid until Hojo confirmed things -- so her saying that to Vincent there just made me think, "Wow, what a complete and utter cock socket bitch."

Besides, knowing she's just acting the way she is toward him because she blames herself for his daddy dying just makes her look like she has the emotional maturity of a particularly immature flea. Not exactly the kind of person who should be making decisions like this in the first place.

 

[ForceStealer]

The "If this only concerns me, then yes, I am sure" scene just made me hate her more because I have always interpreted Vincent's lines on the Sister Ray to indicate that he thought Sephiroth may have been his kid until Hojo confirmed things

Yeah but you're wrong



(but seriously though can you elaborate? Even if Vincent did think Sephiroth was his...if Lucrecia and Hojo both think/know the kid is theirs, how does that change the meaning of what she says?)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Based on? =P

And hating Lucrecia is never wrong.

 

[Clement Rage]

Dirge did a lot for Lucrecia. She's upgraded from a 'research assistant' of Gast's to an elite scientist in her own right (important enough to be assigned a personal bodyguard), who was completely correct with a thesis the wider world did not understand and didn't believe in, who successfully used Science to save Vincents life (and then again, from beyond the grave), and was shown to defy Hojo on occasion. It also answers 'why don't you just leave the cave?'

There are many more interpretations of the cannon dialogue, but regardless of them, the "Am I sure" scene doesn't make her look that bad, although Vincent looks a lot worse.

If Vincent thinks its his kid, than that scene is him being too cowardly to make a claim on it, and being called on it.

"If this only concerns me", remember. She's pointing out that he's not showing concern for Sephiroth, only for her, which is genuinely her decision, not Vincent's. If he's making a claim on the child in his own right, he has an opening to make it there. But he doesn't.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Much as I love Dirge (and I love it more than it deserves to be), I'm not sure I can think of any scenes that I thought benefitted Lucrecia's character. The "If this only concerns me, then yes, I am sure" scene just made me hate her more because I have always interpreted Vincent's lines on the Sister Ray to indicate that he thought Sephiroth may have been his kid until Hojo confirmed things -- so her saying that to Vincent there just made me think, "Wow, what a complete and utter cock socket bitch."

Besides, knowing she's just acting the way she is toward him because she blames herself for his daddy dying just makes her look like she has the emotional maturity of a particularly immature flea. Not exactly the kind of person who should be making decisions like this in the first place.

It's like I was saying in the other thread. No court in the land would have granted this woman custody.

 

[jazzflower92]

Dirge did a lot for Lucrecia. She's upgraded from a 'research assistant' of Gast's to an elite scientist in her own right (important enough to be assigned a personal bodyguard), who was completely correct with a thesis the wider world did not understand and didn't believe in, who successfully used Science to save Vincents life (and then again, from beyond the grave), and was shown to defy Hojo on occasion. It also answers 'why don't you just leave the cave?'

There are many more interpretations of the cannon dialogue, but regardless of them, the "Am I sure" scene doesn't make her look that bad, although Vincent looks a lot worse.

If Vincent thinks its his kid, than that scene is him being too cowardly to make a claim on it, and being called on it.

"If this only concerns me", remember. She's pointing out that he's not showing concern for Sephiroth, only for her, which is genuinely her decision, not Vincent's. If he's making a claim on the child in his own right, he has an opening to make it there. But he doesn't.

Well, she is making a decision that would affect her child. I think someone should have a right to be concerned. She is brushing off someone's concern as minor, which is a pretty assholish thing to do.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Dirge did a lot for Lucrecia. She's upgraded from a 'research assistant' of Gast's to an elite scientist in her own right (important enough to be assigned a personal bodyguard), who was completely correct with a thesis the wider world did not understand and didn't believe in, who successfully used Science to save Vincents life (and then again, from beyond the grave), and was shown to defy Hojo on occasion. It also answers 'why don't you just leave the cave?'

There are many more interpretations of the cannon dialogue, but regardless of them, the "Am I sure" scene doesn't make her look that bad, although Vincent looks a lot worse.

If Vincent thinks its his kid, than that scene is him being too cowardly to make a claim on it, and being called on it.

"If this only concerns me", remember. She's pointing out that he's not showing concern for Sephiroth, only for her, which is genuinely her decision, not Vincent's. If he's making a claim on the child in his own right, he has an opening to make it there. But he doesn't.

That's the whole point, though, isn't it? Vince lacked the balls then to do what he should have.

 

[Roger]

Getting angry because Vincent wasn't concerned enough about the baby, while she herself was the one trying to harm the baby makes her look massively unlikable. At least Hojo owns up to what he is and laughs off Vincent's concerns altogether.

Having her be involved in the experimentation on Vincent, after he got shot by Hojo, while her son was being tested on in another room of the Shinra Mansion also makes her look really bad, even if she did have intermittent fits of coming to her senses.
The getting Grimoire killed stuff isn't too bad, but it doesn't help anything at all, so I'd rather it was left forgotten.

 

[ForceStealer]

I never took the "If this is only about me" line to mean she was angry about Vincent not caring about the baby. Nor did I even see Vincent's question as sole concern for Lucrecia. That only makes sense IF Vincent (and Lucrecia) thinks the baby is his. Which, as discussed, I don't think is the case. Before she snaps at him, Vincent says "but using your own child for an experiment!" He's not talking about just Lucrecia. It's Lucrecia and Hojo that are careless about their child. Hojo responds, "I don't know what you're implying, but she and I are both scientists. We know what we are doing. You are the last person to have any word in this, now leave us at once, boy."

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Coming at it from the perspective where the paternity is in doubt (Lucrecia and Vincent knowing, Hojo suspecting, them thinking he doesn't), those lines kind of add irony to the whole thing -- "using your own child for an experiment"; "you are the last person to have a say"; "if this only concerns me."

Having this understanding of the characters and their situation, that scene becomes the defining illustration for what a shrill, duplicitous immature bitch Lucrecia was, and how ball-less 27-year-old Vincent was. And of course underscores Hojo's insecurities and how he handles such things.

 

[ForceStealer]

Man you put such a Days of Our Lives filter on the whole situation, lol

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Hmm, I did grow up watching "The Young and the Restless"/"The Bold and the Beautiful." First search result foe Y&R on Google right now mentions that someone is about to demand a paternity test.

 

[ForceStealer]

I mean she's obviously despicable for participating in the experiment, but your view puts a whole sheen of conniving on top of her character. I suppose being more hateable has some benefits story-wise. But Hojo already has the monopoly on that. And Gast is the mostly noble science-for-the-sake-of-knowledge guy, mostly. While Lucrecia is kind of the mix of the two (I thought). She is interested in the science in a positive way, but she still has the ambition that Hojo does, succumbs to it, and actually gets a comeuppance as a direct result of that (as opposed to Hojo, whose only comeuppance is that we kill him, haha).

(I'm just talking stream-of-consciousness here)

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Gast masterminded the whole Jenova project!

TBH FFVII doesn't present a very flattering view of scientists. They're all pretty awful - self-centred and with tunnel vision. Gast just cuts and runs when he figures out what he's done, and holes up in Icicle Inn canoodling with Ifalna. I suppose one could be very generous and say he's gathering evidence, putting together the full picture of what Jenova is, before he acts. I think he gets a free pass because he's one of Hojo's victims and he's Aerith's dad. But I'm pretty sure she'd have some sharp words to say to him, if they ever met (in the Lifestream or out of it)

Science research labs have a reputation for being pretty cut-throat places to work. Hojo saw off all the opposition - Gast, Hollander, even Lucretia - and came out triumphant. I mean obviously he's a piece of kak, but he doesn't strike me as evil so much as just existing on a completely different plane where there is no morality, only science.

Fortunately, Cid and Shera are also scientists. They redeem the profession somewhat.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't see my take on Lucrecia in that scene as adding another layer of conniving. I call her duplicitous because one minute she's surprising Vincent with a picnic or getting him to dance with her (see that shitty Lost Episode game), the next she's saying she could never be with him and frothing at the mouth about how none of this is his business.

I'm not saying she's as bad a character as Machina in Type-0. I'm just saying if they were locked in a room together, the room needs to be set on fire.

Also, another hint that the soap opera filter is well deserved: Hojo saying "So you've come to your senses and chosen me" in that one flashback.

 

[ForceStealer]

No I didn't mean Gast was free and clear. But of the three scientists in the wrong, he comes out the best. The idea of the Jenova Project wasn't inherently evil. They thought Jenova was an Ancient and they were hoping to revive the race/species/whatever. With the hopes that such a reborn Cetra could lead humanity to the Promised Land. Yes, Shinra wanted to just slap a new Midgar on it, but from a purely scientific standpoint, the goal was not a corrupt one.
This is what I think allowed Lucrecia to justify it in her mind. Hojo had no need to justify it because he's a psychopath. Gast does indeed run from the problem, but at least he realized that it WAS a problem. (Whether he saw the ethical issues, or simply when he learned that Jenova was a interplanetary parasitic alien and not a peaceful, Promised-Land-finding-Cetra is up for debate )

@Tres: Yeah, and that's the stuff I like considerably less about what Dirge showed. It makes her, at best, an incorrigible tease. Whereas VII's flashback merely outlined to me that they hit it off in conversation and then Vincent fell for her without her necessarily going out of her way to lead him on. At worst, it makes her what you've surmised, that not only is she a bit of a tease, she even slept with him before pulling the rug out from under him.

 

[Clement Rage]

I never took the "If this is only about me" line to mean she was angry about Vincent not caring about the baby. Nor did I even see Vincent's question as sole concern for Lucrecia. That only makes sense IF Vincent (and Lucrecia) thinks the baby is his. Which, as discussed, I don't think is the case. Before she snaps at him, Vincent says "but using your own child for an experiment!" He's not talking about just Lucrecia. It's Lucrecia and Hojo that are careless about their child. Hojo responds, "I don't know what you're implying, but she and I are both scientists. We know what we are doing. You are the last person to have any word in this, now leave us at once, boy."

I agree, I was just entertaining the possibility. I don't see how Lucrecia looks particularly bad in that scene. Either Vincent thinks he's the father, and he chooses not to make a stand here, or he genuinely doesn't have an interest in any of this. You could say that he has a general moral stance, but his job involves kidnapping people for science, so that falls a bit flat. Hojo and Lucrecia genuinely do have a much better understanding of what's involved in the experiment than he does, and it actually doesn't do Sephiroth the child any harm. (he went wrong later due to other factors)

Having her be involved in the experimentation on Vincent, after he got shot by Hojo, while her son was being tested on in another room of the Shinra Mansion also makes her look really bad

The one that saved his life, you mean? And I got the impression Hojo put Sephy well out of her reach, it is very clear that if she had the ability to go to him she would.

I call her duplicitous because one minute she's surprising Vincent with a picnic or getting him to dance with her (see that shitty Lost Episode game), the next she's saying she could never be with him and frothing at the mouth about how none of this is his business.

How far apart were those moments? My impression was that the whole project lasted years and there was an ongoing LTD that everyone was aware of, "So you've come to your senses and chosen me". My impression was that this was a long term project where she was close to Vincent for a while, and then moved on to Hojo, and he obviously wasn't over her. As the bodyguard, obviously they were still in close contact, but she moved on and he hadn't, and still thought he had a claim on a child she later had with someone else. Those moments could have been months or even years apart.

I dunno, the fact that Gast had a child with somebody he was formerly (holding captive?)experimenting on put a very shady film on his actions.

 

[ForceStealer]

I don't think Gast was holding Ifalna captive or experimenting on her. His finding her was what told him he was wrong about Jenova and then he fled Shinra. He continued interviewing her for his own research, but I think they just fell in love normally. Only once Hojo came, took her and killed Gast was she being held captive.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

No I didn't mean Gast was free and clear. But of the three scientists in the wrong, he comes out the best.

Conceded

Being the fan of soap opera that I am, I quite like the idea that she slept with Vincent and then rejected him. Maybe Hojo's actually really good in the sack, surprise surprise. He's got all those beach bunnies doting on him in Costa.

Do you think the game-makers were trying to convey the idea that it mattered to Hojo that Sephiroth contained his DNA? In the scene on the Sister Ray he seems to be quite proud of the fact that Sephiroth is not only his experiment, but his son.

Re Gast and Ifalna: I feel we were meant to gain exactly the impression you describe, Tres. Somehow they meet, she volunteers to give him the information about Jenova, and they fall in love. The scenes with baby Aerith depict a loving couple.